View Full Version : Interesting Idea...an "Obese Subculture"??
Obesus
11-12-2005, 11:39 AM
Waaaay back in the late 1960's there was a fascinating article, in Avant Garde magazine, about the emergence of an "Obese Subculture", which was loosely defined as a set of people who enjoy being hugely fat and even enhancing that fat through purposeful overeating. This was really before the whole "feeder/feedee and gainer/encourager" thing happened, which makes it doubly interesting...wish I still had a copy of it! LOL The idea though, is...are WE that obese subculture? How has this whole experience evolved over the last 35 years? It really does stretch back at least that far. By the time I wrote my article "The Disciples of Flesh" for Apocalypse Culture, back in the mid-80's, there was already a burgeoning zamisdat of really underground magazines, mostly xeroxed or hand done and a network of folks gaining weight, linked by telephone or hushed whispers down dark alleys. Food for thought, eh! :eat2: :eat1:
fatlane
11-12-2005, 01:16 PM
Yeah. We're a subculture, all right.
Cool. That means we're also "underground" and can wear berets and sunglasses and snap our fingers instead of clapping.
CurvaceousBBWLover
11-12-2005, 02:21 PM
And who knows? In a few years this subculture will become the mainstream. Which means guys like me will have more women to choose from. Umm. Umm. Umm. :-)
Obesus
11-12-2005, 04:11 PM
It's been a kinda' Jack Kerouac afternoon over here in Frisco..candles in old wine bottles, bongos on the board and poetry all over....."Do the one about the pony, man!" :cool:
Yeah. We're a subculture, all right.
Cool. That means we're also "underground" and can wear berets and sunglasses and snap our fingers instead of clapping.
There seems to be quite alot of goth BBW's and FA's here, so would that be a sub-subculture?
Obesus
11-12-2005, 04:43 PM
....and the coolest, because the Romantics and Decadents of the 19th Century who spawned it were generally neurasthenic tubercular anorechics who valued the bone over the flesh. Going fat for a Goth is a truly political statement, which is why Curvy Em and Black Heart of Prussia have my infinite respect! Oooh..Vivica and......the list goes on! Clive Barker has had a few such characters over the years...Leroy from Nightbreed stands out as about the coolest fat Gothic figure in cinema! My own artistic work with the Dark Sweet New Obscure Style of the Roman Catholic decadence stands absolutely in this vein...the Lovecraft mythos has also had some outer gods and servitors, such as Y'golonac, who were obese...this is rich, fertile and fat territory for exploration! Thanks for bringing it up! :bow:
There seems to be quite alot of goth BBW's and FA's here, so would that be a sub-subculture?
I really love Lovecraft, he is one of my fave authors, and Nightbreed one of my fave films.
It's like the grotesque, becomes the truly beautiful.
My all time favorite Artist is Heironymus Bosch, a man before his time.
Obesus have you ever seen a film called Society, where the rich feed on the poor.
Obesus
11-12-2005, 05:24 PM
...the one by Brian Yuzna of "Re-Animator" fame? No, but I just ordered it from Amazon! It sounds verrry cool....! Have you ever seen "La Grand Bouffe"? Up there with "SEVEN" as the most nihilistic films in history! Kewl!
Oh...both feature overeating, obesity and other on-topic things! Nifty! :bow:
I like things that give us a really fringe view of the mainstream...that is where the insights are! :shocked:
Obesus have you ever seen a film called Society, where the rich feed on the poor.
Judge_Dre
11-13-2005, 04:46 AM
....and the coolest, because the Romantics and Decadents of the 19th Century who spawned it were generally neurasthenic tubercular anorechics who valued the bone over the flesh. Going fat for a Goth is a truly political statement,
I just came back from a goth club where I picked up the phone number a really sultry and sultry goth BBW. Often times it seems that goth chicks only come in two sizes; waif and BBW. It seems that those two body types can best put off the goth look.
By the way, Apocalypse Culture is one of my favotie books of all time. I was disappointed that Obsesus wasn't asked to write a follow-up to "Disciples of Flesh" in the second volume.
I'm actually really fascinated by the roots of feederism and how the scene really started. As a journalist I tend to research things that catch my interest. It would be great if there was a book that accuratly studies our sub-culture. Deviant Desires was great, but there was so much that was left out.
fatlane
11-13-2005, 10:57 AM
It's been a kinda' Jack Kerouac afternoon over here in Frisco..candles in old wine bottles, bongos on the board and poetry all over....."Do the one about the pony, man!" :cool:
I now have a sudden urge to get hopped up on peyote, head to Mexico City with a girlfriend, and then shoot her in a drug-fueled crime spree. Then write a novel about drug addiction set in New York and North Africa.
No idea where the urge came from, but now it's passed... ;)
I haven't seen, "La Grand Bouffe", but I loved Seven.
I will keep an eye out for it.
I think society won't accept fat people because we are the ultimate fear, the thing that they dread most within themselves.
Our ability to change our bodies to the very extreme. We become our desires we show our indulgence.
Our bodies a testament to our liberation; forsaking the control of diets and unfulfilment.
Our refusal to be ashamed for choosing freedom from restriction.
When we are X amount overweight we are treated like we are less than human. Only when we lose that X amount of weight are we taken back into the fold. We are then treated like hero's, we have killed the beast and are paraded around, (put in magazines, given makeovers, T.V. slots ETC....).
The world has gone mad!
Obesus
11-13-2005, 02:06 PM
The Social Root Meme is Control with a big ol' capital "C"...it has been the obsession of the West since the Greeks and maybe further back...fat folks are the archetype of being "out of control" and therefore actually dangerous to society...the only problem is that the other great social root meme: Consumerism, also has a big ol' capital "C"...and a lot of fat people are not consciously aware of their bodies...only the corporate need to stuff themselves with food and consume anything not nailed down...the truly consciously "FAT" are political and social rebels at a basic level, because they have chosen the path of chaos...the path of the Goddess Eris...Ataraxia...are you feeling better? This is something worth much exploration and writing....oh....did I mention that I am a writer of conspiracy theory! LOL :shocked: You hit the nail on the head..thanks! :bow:
I think society won't accept fat people because we are the ultimate fear, the thing that they dread most within themselves.
Our ability to change our bodies to the very extreme. We become our desires we show our indulgence.
Our bodies a testament to our liberation; forsaking the control of diets and unfulfilment.
Our refusal to be ashamed for choosing freedom from restriction.
Obesus
11-13-2005, 02:12 PM
There is a longer book version of the "Disciples of Flesh" in the works...which makes sense because that article and a couple of my other ones were pirated in Amsterdam when ApoCult first came out...there must be a market! LOL Fat Goth is just a fascinating phenomenon and one worth much study, because it bucks two trends at once...I think it might come up in my current cultural study of Youth Rebellion and Postmodernist art...who knows, but a section on the Goth invasion of Disneyland will certainly be in there! LOL
There actually was a second version of "The Disciples of Flesh"...in the second edition (not volume) of ApoCult...it was called "Surgeons and Gluttons in the House of Flesh," and delved into extreme body modification in many directions...hey, it was described as "classic American screed" by the San Jose Mercury! ROFL:eek: I will definitely do a book-length study of the Obese Subculture in many of its developments...it just needs to be done, eh? Thanks for your insightful and interesting comments! Someday we should compare notes! :bow:
I just came back from a goth club where I picked up the phone number a really sultry and sultry goth BBW. Often times it seems that goth chicks only come in two sizes; waif and BBW. It seems that those two body types can best put off the goth look.
By the way, Apocalypse Culture is one of my favotie books of all time. I was disappointed that Obsesus wasn't asked to write a follow-up to "Disciples of Flesh" in the second volume.
I'm actually really fascinated by the roots of feederism and how the scene really started. As a journalist I tend to research things that catch my interest. It would be great if there was a book that accuratly studies our sub-culture. Deviant Desires was great, but there was so much that was left out.
I have noticed when alot of BBW's and SSBW's become accepting of their bodies, they want to show their bodies to the world.
Being made to feel unattractive by society for so long, it's a further rebellion in a way.
Just by looking through the profiles more often than not there are provocative pictures.
I have found this over and over again whilst finding a fat acceptance forum to belong to.
I am still at the stage in my development where having my photo taken in any way is hard for me.
I think it is amazing to see a fat woman promoting herself as a sexual being, I'm just amazed by the degree of women who are taking that route.
There is a market there for sure.
I'm finding it hard to put into words what I mean. I'm just trying to see if there is a connection and this is becoming another subculture in it's own right.
Where here on the Net we can be models and adored by men and women alike and people take notice of what we say.
When the pc is off and we are out and about town we are constantly reminded that the world does not see us in that way.
We are encouraged to keep covered from head to toe and to deny any personal progress we have discovered about our selves.
To live a split life.:confused:
loves2laugh
11-13-2005, 04:00 PM
i love the idea of a subculture, however i find that i become so comfortable with this little world that i forget how hurtful the outside world is.
Obesus
11-13-2005, 07:13 PM
The "schiz" as Gilles Delauze and Felix Guattari define it in "Antioedipus" and "A Thousand Plateaus", is the essential tool of social control in the West. By not being able to experience what it is to be whole...to be unable to see the whole of one's life, but only pieces of it mirrored in media images which reproduce themselves like DNA, is an excellent way to keep large numbers of people in a docile position. For fat people, there are splits on top of the larger splits that usually define us...ridicule, derision;a positively medieval sense of a morality of denial and self-denigration...these are powerful tools which cut us at the point of the root social matrix. Back when the Industrial and Modernist age was just in it's infancy...sowewhere in the late 18th and early 19th Centuries, fat people were the subject of "curiousity", displayed like prize sheep at county fairs and later, circus sideshows. Their "freak" status made sure that they were not only powerless, but the object of particular ridicule and scorn. As the days of the sideshow ended and mass media began its' earnest rise, talk-shows replaced the sideshows of old. Feigning concern for their victims, they actually held them up to more superficial and demeaning scrutiny than ever before. The ritualistic abuse of the fat by the diet industry and medicine is covered well in Thomas Szasz "Ceremonial Chemistry", one of the most important books on being fat, that is rarely quoted in books about fat empowerment. The process of empowerment begins at the individual level, but builds out to a small community..a subculture, which acts as a life preserver for those who cling to it for validation. This little life-preserver here at Dimensions has surprising power for those who come here, because in community, there is a challenge to the "schiz"...the deep cut that lies at the heart of the control complex. Whew...sounds like a thesis and I telescoped a huge amount of material, but I think it offers some insight into why when folks come here, they are more than anxious to share their stories and self-images and desires....there is such a deep need , such a powerful adversary in mass media and medical "science" and not too many places to feel safe about sharing! :bow:
I have noticed when alot of BBW's and SSBW's become accepting of their bodies, they want to show their bodies to the world.
Being made to feel unattractive by society for so long, it's a further rebellion in a way.
Just by looking through the profiles more often than not there are provocative pictures.
I have found this over and over again whilst finding a fat acceptance forum to belong to.
I am still at the stage in my development where having my photo taken in any way is hard for me.
I think it is amazing to see a fat woman promoting herself as a sexual being, I'm just amazed by the degree of women who are taking that route.
There is a market there for sure.
I'm finding it hard to put into words what I mean. I'm just trying to see if there is a connection and this is becoming another subculture in it's own right.
Where here on the Net we can be models and adored by men and women alike and people take notice of what we say.
When the pc is off and we are out and about town we are constantly reminded that the world does not see us in that way.
We are encouraged to keep covered from head to toe and to deny any personal progress we have discovered about our selves.
To live a split life.:confused:
Obesus
11-13-2005, 07:26 PM
Back in the olden days...and I mean the really olden days...like, about 2.500BC, things were a bit different. There was a culture of Megalith builders...huge stone temples that seem to have been dedicated to the Primoridal Goddess...that understood being fat as a divine state and a reflection of universal fertility and abundance of life. That culture has survivials all around the world, even into the modern age... in North Africa, the Middle East, the Pacific...there is still a basic cultural veneration for obesity and the understanding that being fat is a sacred state...those attitudes are now changing as the mechanized world spreads its' gospel. Where the old "Fat is Sacred" meme has come under the most intense crossfire has been in the Industrialized "First World", which is far more interested in producing "fit" and obedient factory workers and producers and consumers of products than any holistic understanding of life. That model only has room for being fat when it is understood as the result of consumerism run amok..and then it becomes part of Medical science and the social control matrix....another product to sell! That is why it feels like a cold hostile world "out there" in the world outside of Dimensions and our little universe "in here." When there are outbreaks of trollism here, it is a serious matter and people react with especial protection, because this is a "safe" place to be fat...one of the very very few around. :shocked:
i love the idea of a subculture, however i find that i become so comfortable with this little world that i forget how hurtful the outside world is.
waitingforsuperman
11-13-2005, 10:23 PM
I now have a sudden urge to get hopped up on peyote, head to Mexico City with a girlfriend, and then shoot her in a drug-fueled crime spree. Then write a novel about drug addiction set in New York and North Africa.
No idea where the urge came from, but now it's passed... ;)
damn it. i was looking forward to reading that.
Obesus
11-13-2005, 11:03 PM
That if you read William S. Burroughs' "Junky" you will have an eerily similar work of literature! LOL :D
Ooooh...that Fatlane is very adept with Neoist appropriation and Psychogeographical cut-ups! Damn! :bow: :shocked:
damn it. i was looking forward to reading that.
waitingforsuperman
11-14-2005, 03:12 AM
That if you read William S. Burroughs' "Junky" you will have an eerily similar work of literature! LOL :D
but i'd miss out on drug induced rants about the advantages of fat chicks! that's the part i wanted to read!
fatlane
11-14-2005, 01:04 PM
So you want I should be the FA equivalent of William S. Burroughs?
I'll give it a shot... not making any promises, though...
CurvaceousBBWLover
11-14-2005, 04:31 PM
Back in the olden days...and I mean the really olden days...like, about 2.500BC, things were a bit different. There was a culture of Megalith builders...huge stone temples that seem to have been dedicated to the Primoridal Goddess...that understood being fat as a divine state and a reflection of universal fertility and abundance of life. That culture has survivials all around the world, even into the modern age... in North Africa, the Middle East, the Pacific...there is still a basic cultural veneration for obesity and the understanding that being fat is a sacred state...those attitudes are now changing as the mechanized world spreads its' gospel. Where the old "Fat is Sacred" meme has come under the most intense crossfire has been in the Industrialized "First World", which is far more interested in producing "fit" and obedient factory workers and producers and consumers of products than any holistic understanding of life. That model only has room for being fat when it is understood as the result of consumerism run amok..and then it becomes part of Medical science and the social control matrix....another product to sell! That is why it feels like a cold hostile world "out there" in the world outside of Dimensions and our little universe "in here." When there are outbreaks of trollism here, it is a serious matter and people react with especial protection, because this is a "safe" place to be fat...one of the very very few around. :shocked:
And as an African-American I can say fat=propsperous and sexy.
CurvaceousBBWLover
11-14-2005, 04:34 PM
Control. Control. Control. That is the ridiculous buzzword that seems to reverberate in corporate America's consciousness. How about everyone learning to live in harmony with our bodies, ourselves and each other. Life would be so much simpler that way.
Enough with this so-called war on obesity. Most people are not going to ever be stick-thin. So why not encourage healthy eating habits and exercise?
Also, let's get rid of beauty contests since they only make the losers and the average women at home feel ugly.
As God is my witness, don't get me started on beauty pageants.
slowly i turned, step by step, inch by inch....
CurvaceousBBWLover
11-14-2005, 04:37 PM
I haven't seen, "La Grand Bouffe", but I loved Seven.
I will keep an eye out for it.
I think society won't accept fat people because we are the ultimate fear, the thing that they dread most within themselves.
Our ability to change our bodies to the very extreme. We become our desires we show our indulgence.
Our bodies a testament to our liberation; forsaking the control of diets and unfulfilment.
Our refusal to be ashamed for choosing freedom from restriction.
When we are X amount overweight we are treated like we are less than human. Only when we lose that X amount of weight are we taken back into the fold. We are then treated like hero's, we have killed the beast and are paraded around, (put in magazines, given makeovers, T.V. slots ETC....).
The world has gone mad!
And this goes straight to my point that Western culture needs to give up its obsession with control. For all of our talk about individual freedom, western culture still fails to offer the most important freedom of all: the freedom of self-actualization regardless of whatever is considered normal.
fatlane
11-14-2005, 06:19 PM
As God is my witness, don't get me started on beauty pageants.
slowly i turned, step by step, inch by inch....
As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
-- Arthur Carlson, WKRP in Cincinnati
Best line ever on a TV show.
Obesus
11-14-2005, 10:24 PM
You're gettin' me all misty for Thanksgiving here....sob! I remember that show...just like it was......last Century! ROFL! You are, as we say, THE MAN!:bow:
As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
-- Arthur Carlson, WKRP in Cincinnati
Best line ever on a TV show.
Obesus
11-15-2005, 07:07 AM
That is very good confirmation of the survival of very old and very meaningful cultural associations....:)
And as an African-American I can say fat=propsperous and sexy.
fatlane
11-15-2005, 06:58 PM
You're gettin' me all misty for Thanksgiving here....sob! I remember that show...just like it was......last Century! ROFL! You are, as we say, THE MAN!:bow:
American Radio today NEEDS Johnny Fever... desperately...
UncannyBruceman
11-17-2005, 06:50 AM
I just came back from a goth club where I picked up the phone number a really sultry and sultry goth BBW. Often times it seems that goth chicks only come in two sizes; waif and BBW. It seems that those two body types can best put off the goth look.
Yes indeed!! Just out of curiosity, where did you find this lovely young lady? I used to go to the Bat Cave a lot but I never found it to be a good place for mingling. I did manage to connect with one beauty over the summer. I never thought I'd ever say that a girl who had to be at LEAST 425lbs wasn't worth the pursuit...she actually broke it to me ON THE INTERNET that she wasn't interested in seeing me again. At least she was honest...
CurvaceousBBWLover
11-17-2005, 04:48 PM
That is very good confirmation of the survival of very old and very meaningful cultural associations....:)
You're welcome. I'm always glad to point out things as I see them.
altered states
11-18-2005, 03:54 AM
So you want I should be the FA equivalent of William S. Burroughs?
I'll give it a shot... not making any promises, though...
Wasn't there a 300 pound female Mexico City junkie/dealer in Queer? Burroughs wrote that she started using heroin to lose weight but it only thinned out her face... Let that be a lesson to all you kids!
Obesus
11-19-2005, 09:42 AM
Oh, yes, that is quite true..the stereotypical image is of an anorechic, but there are plenty of fat folk on heroin, methadone and pills...as I recall, there is that character in "Queer"...Burroughs, as usual, had a strong basis in reality...regardless of wherever he went with it, inside his science fiction war universe. It is always interesting how stereotypes just do little besides distort the truth...what good are they anyhoo! LOL :doh: :bow:
Wasn't there a 300 pound female Mexico City junkie/dealer in Queer? Burroughs wrote that she started using heroin to lose weight but it only thinned out her face... Let that be a lesson to all you kids!
fatlane
11-19-2005, 10:48 AM
I know a lot of skinny guys on the marijuana...
Obesus
11-19-2005, 12:26 PM
The stereotypical "munchies" you are supposed to get are not always acted upon, eh? I know a woman, all of about 97 pounds soaking wet..same deal! :eat1: Personally, breathing gives me munchies! LOL:eat2:
I know a lot of skinny guys on the marijuana...
Jack Skellington
11-19-2005, 12:32 PM
As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.
-- Arthur Carlson, WKRP in Cincinnati
Dammit! I was going to say that!
fatlane
11-19-2005, 02:08 PM
Dammit! I was going to say that!
Well, Mr. C beat you to it! :p
Obesus
11-19-2005, 07:58 PM
When I start pulling out my copy of "The Fantasticks" and pondering ponderously on the vagaries of life and the TV pleasures of my childhood, but BACK on TOPIC! Ahem, the question or opinement arose in another context (There is one?) that much like there is a cyber-community here with an occasional actual meet-up, so there is a much larger "fat-community" in the minds of the mass public (most of whom are not that massive!)....i.e. the memetic structure of how folks think about and emotionally relate to fat...this here is a protected environment and not the only one...but so tiny compared to the vast world outside...who are we addressing with the concept of an "obese subculture?" Are these folks who are aware of the cyberfat world or are there mysterious connections we do not know about, like the telephone or even snail mail letters, like in the olden days. This is interesting, because I have in my mind the image of folks who are not computer literate and don't care about it, but do the fat thing on their own in some sort of loose social network...I don't know, but it bears some interest! :shocked: There used to be a group out here, outta' Frisco, called "The Fat Underground", who had very strong political aspirations for fat liberation...who knows?
Well, Mr. C beat you to it! :p
Obesus
11-19-2005, 08:01 PM
We automatically assume that everyone deeply involved in the fat movement one way or the other, must have gotten online by now, but that is not at all true...many people have never touched a computer in their lives and don't care to...hmmmmmm....this is of interest...it may help to explain where the "missing mass" of FFA's went...they are all Luddites! LOL :D :bow:
fatlane
11-20-2005, 12:39 PM
Yes. They need to get online and post pics.
Obesus
11-21-2005, 05:03 AM
I am sure that all right-thinking people are thinking rightly about being right on about the rightness of that! No doubt at all! Errrr..I am a bit uncertain! but, YES! Absolutely! You are right with that! LOL:bow: Especially piccies of stuff! Yes! :cool: Were we talking abut cheeses of the World?
Yes. They need to get online and post pics.
Michelle
11-21-2005, 05:27 AM
Also, let's get rid of beauty contests since they only make the losers and the average women at home feel ugly.
Can't say that a beauty contest ever made me feel ugly. I always thought the women on those things looked kinda dorky and artificial. Aside from that, beauty contests seem to be dying a natural death (except for those that are for little, tiny girls, which is a whole different subject). The Miss America pageant, for example, finally moved itself to Las Vegas to try to get more exposure. An article in my local paper yesterday stated that the pageant coordinators are asking former Miss America winners to fund the $50,000 scholarship, since the pageant officials don't have enough backing to do it on their own.
altered states
11-21-2005, 03:52 PM
I know a lot of skinny guys on the marijuana...
I'm not skinny, but as a daily smoker, I found the munchies dropped off after a few years or so. I lost 25 pounds while smoking more than ever. That said, pot is the best nausea suppresant, and if you wind up in a Vicar of Dibley-type situation where you have to attend 5 holiday dinners in one night, it will keep you going.
Speaking of side effects from weed, I can't stand those fucking "smilies" off to the side there as I'm trying to write. It's like they're all looking right at me.
altered states
11-21-2005, 04:02 PM
I remember Ned Sonntag writing about this as a possible future phenomenon after V-Search's Deviant Desires came out a few years ago, with it's section on FAism. Ned wrote of how ReSearch's Modern Primitives in 1989 predicted the piercing craze (true), and that maybe lightning would strike twice with their treatment of FAism. He imagined little kids hanging out at the mall with mohawks and tongue studs, this time stuffing their faces at the food court and growing fatter, while peer admirers look on lustingly and their parents (fresh from a session at Curves) go ballistic. Actually, from my casual research, it seems like all is proceeding according to plan
fatlane
11-21-2005, 06:05 PM
All we need now is a 300-lb Britney Spears and we're in the catbird seat.
Obesus
11-21-2005, 07:00 PM
Smile when ya' say them words! We are trying to desperately keep this thing under wraps and underground! Tu capisce? I don't wanna' havta' have a necktie party around these parts....I hate those school stripes! LOL Ooooh, you know what I mean....I like the whispers down dark alleys about Little Debbie snacks being all good for you and such and all that dangerous feeder/gainer stuff! :shocked: I wanna' keep the "perve" in pervert! LOL:eek:
All we need now is a 300-lb Britney Spears and we're in the catbird seat.
fatlane
11-21-2005, 07:05 PM
How about Britney being 300 and then a huge scandal hits when it's found out she didn't do it on her own, but had a "feeder" assisting her? The steroids of weight gain! Feeders!
Obesus
11-21-2005, 07:13 PM
That is one heavy thought, man! I am in with you on that one! Dark Green!:D
How about Britney being 300 and then a huge scandal hits when it's found out she didn't do it on her own, but had a "feeder" assisting her? The steroids of weight gain! Feeders!
fatlane
11-21-2005, 07:14 PM
SPEARS TO TESTIFY BEFORE SENATE COMMITTEE ON FEEDERS
Ooooh, dare we dream?
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