The War on Christmas.

[Tina]

Or, I should say, A fictional 'war on Christmas' [I get so tired of all the made up tempests in tea pots. Personally, I've seen no "war on Christmas" here and believe it's just made up malarkey.]

By T. Jeremy Gunn 1 hour, 55 minutes ago

Last December, a group called Public Advocate for the United States (which claims to defend America's traditional family values) sent some Christmas carolers over to sing in front of the ACLU offices in Washington.

Carrying signs reading "Merry Christmas" and "Please Don't Sue Us!" - they also seem to have carried with them some rather strange imaginings about an assault on Christmas. (Related: Law doesn't mandate a secular Christmas | The year's dust-ups)

I don't know what the carolers thought might happen.

To tell the truth, the ACLU is not often serenaded by Christmas carolers. So it was with some excitement that the staff went outside and joined in the singing. They brought with them cookies and warm drinks to share. One staff member, who is an ordained Baptist minister, did a little witnessing about his faith to some astonished proponents of family values.

Fox News did broadcast the event (as a part of its "war against Christmas" campaign). Although the visiting singers were shown, the cameras failed to include any footage showing that everyone had participated in the caroling. Rather than reporting the facts, the anchor preferred the propaganda: "We believe the ACLU heard the message loud and clear, but they don't care."

The battle cries

This year, several groups are once again introducing the Christmas season with some heated and misleading military rhetoric. Some declare, "There is a war against Christmas!" One group launched a "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign." One particularly bizarre charge is that there is "a thorough and virulent anti-Christmas campaign." Without a shred of evidence, they pretend that there is an effort afoot to remove "God" from the Declaration of Independence. Two groups even announced that they have assembled hundreds of lawyers to protect Christmas against this imaginary threat.

Make no mistake about it. These warrior-lawyers are not asking us to love our neighbors (and certainly not our enemies), nor to turn the other cheek, nor to be peacemakers, nor to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Nor is this a joyful effort to encourage the Christmas spirit in the millions of places where it can be promoted without any conflict: in people's hearts, in their homes, with families, in churches, or with friend and neighbors.

No, this is a campaign of military-infused rhetoric demanding that everyone accept one politically correct version of "Christmas."

For example, this year in Boston - the same city where Puritans once prohibited the pagan-inspired "Christmas tree" - the new Puritans now demand that the city call its evergreen spruce a "Christmas tree," and they threatened a lawsuit if the city didn't comply.

Another group charges that there is a "campaign of fear, intimidation, and disinformation" against seasonal symbols in Raleigh, N.C. - and they offer to provide a defense for the city against any threatened lawsuit. Yet they give no evidence that anyone is threatening a lawsuit. Before accusing others of engaging in "disinformation," perhaps these Christmas warriors should first take a look in the mirror.

Why this desire to manufacture controversy - about Christmas?

Guidelines already exist

Rather than engaging in propaganda about a "war on Christmas," all who want to promote the spirit of Christmas should remember a couple of simple guidelines.

First, Christmas displays - including nativity scenes - are perfectly acceptable at homes and churches. This religious expression is a valued and protected part of the First Amendment rights guaranteed to all citizens.

Second, governments should not be in the business of endorsing religious displays. Religion does best when government stays out of the business of deciding which holidays and religions to promote. Religion belongs where it prospers best: with individuals, families and religious communities.

And finally, as a seasonal greeting to all Christians: Merry Christmas from the ACLU! And for believers in all other traditions: Thank you for enriching our world!

T. Jeremy Gunn is director of the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.

[fatlane]

That bit about God in the Declaration of Independence... it's not even part of the law of the land. It is, in fact, in opposition to much of the Constitution... but anyway...

The War on Christmas will end in the minds of those who see it when everyone is taught a vaguely Protestant, obscurantist version of everything in public schools. Those who don't see a War on Christmas won't mind too much.

And for those who tirelessly crusade to expunge religion from the public eye - dude. We live in a society that's predominantly Christian. We can't help it if some of that spills over into what we say and do publicly...

[Webmaster]

Or, I should say, A fictional 'war on Christmas' [I get so tired of all the made up tempests in tea pots. Personally, I've seen no "war on Christmas" here and believe it's just made up malarkey.]....

Good observation. And tempests in a tea pot is right. Sometimes it baffles me what odd subjects some folks and groups pick to go on a major crusade. The way I see it, things and customs change all the time. Sometimes for good reason, other times for dubious ones. At some point Columbus Day was a big deal. These days we sort of quietly ignore it as something that borders on the politically incorrect.

Personally, I am far more bothered that I have a hard time these days getting into the Christmas spirit due to the gross commercialism of it all, whether they call it Christmas or Holiday spirit.

[Jane]

All smoke and mirrors designed to keep us from questioning the true, unthinkable problems: Poverty, government sanctioned torture, a deficit that will cripple our children's future, tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans while children go to bed hungry.

"Don't Think of an Elephant." Read it.

[Webmaster]

All smoke and mirrors designed to keep us from questioning the true, unthinkable problems: Poverty, government sanctioned torture, a deficit that will cripple our children's future, tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans while children go to bed hungry.

"Don't Think of an Elephant." Read it.

Never leave any opportunity to put in some partisan political swipes. :)

[Jane]

Sorry about that. :doh:

I am a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. However, I think the "powers that be of both parties" are allowing this to happen rather than saying, "Hey, Stupid, wanna talk about what's really important."

It's so much easier to use a BSO. (Bright, Shiny Object designed to distract):D

[Jack Skellington]

There is no war on Christmas. Jerry Falwell and his ilk are just trying to stir up trouble and controversy out of nothing. They always have to have an enemy to project their hate on to.

No one is offended by Merry Christmas. Religious Christmas songs have been played at every store I've been to this year. Silent Night, Little Drummer Boy, Joy to the World and so on. Nativity scenes are everywhere. No one complained, no one protested, no riots broke out.

As a rule I never say Happy Holidays. Because if you say Merry Christmas to a non-Christian they really don't mind. But if you say Happy Holidays to a Christian you run the risk of having someone get really ticked off at you.

All the people protesting and angrily screaming catch phrases like "Put the Christ back into Christmas!" are in serious need of some Christmas spirit. Perhaps they should also be reminded that they are in fact celebrating a co-opted Pagan holiday. I saw a photo of a Pastor dressed as Santa protesting outside of a Walmart. If he only knew.

[thislittlepiggy]

Jon Stewart cracked me up with what he said about the non-issue of "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas." "Happy Holidays" is plural because more than one holiday is in this season--even for Protestants, since both Christmas and New Year's Day fall within a week of one another. As Jon Stewart said, you could wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year . . . "but you got shit to do."

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Personally, I am far more bothered that I have a hard time these days getting into the Christmas spirit due to the gross commercialism of it all, whether they call it Christmas or Holiday spirit.

I was gonna say the same thing Conrad. I'm sick of all of it. We don't even celebrate in our home anymore. :mad:

[Miss Vickie]

You know, it doesn't help when folks like Bill O'Reilly lie about so called evidence of this so called war. He claimed that in Plano, Texas (http://www.pisd.edu/news/archive/2005-06/oreilly.report.shtml) kids weren't allowed to wear red and green to school. Same thing in Saginaw, Michigan except that it's been expanded to include the entire township. (http://www.wnem.com/Global/story.asp?S=4235657). Except, not surprisingly, both are out and out lies, thus giving Al Franken even more fodder for his next book. ;)

Gee, ya think he's trying to start something? I'm not saying that liberals don't do crazy things. (Hell, I'm liberal and I do crazy shit all the time). But hey Bill, at least get your facts straight, will ya?

"No Spin Zone" my fat white ass.

[Tragdor]

I am planning a war on the number 84 and other various abstract concepts

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

And for those who tirelessly crusade to expunge religion from the public eye - dude. We live in a society that's predominantly Christian. We can't help it if some of that spills over into what we say and do publicly...

I am a Pagan and a Goth, last person you would think would be shopping for Christmas gifts right?
Wrong. I come from a family of Catholics, secular Christians, Agnostics and a couple mellow Atheist as well as a couple other Pagans. I buy gifts for those people for their holidays, not just mine.
I have a friend who celebrates Kwanza (I had to send an e-greeting to her since I could not find a Kwanza card in Boise) and an entire handful of friends who celebrate Hanukkah, I have been to passover dinner with them and would have no problem celebrating anything they invited me to.
I say HAPPY HOLIDAYS because that is just what I mean, it is a wish that no matter what holiday you celebrate in the winter, even if it is only New Years Eve that you will be happy and find peace and contentment.
I honestly don't care if the giant tree on our courthouse steps is called a CHRISTMAS TREE or a YULE TREE, or TANUMBAUM or FRED, I just like the lights in the dark and dreary days of winter. In fact I kind of like Fred.
I don't care if there is a Nativity scene on the courthouse lawn, as long as someone else does not care that there is also a 6 foot tall Menorah there as well. I don't care if you wear a Cross, a Star of David as long as you don't give me guff about wearing my symbols.
People simply spend too much time worrying about what other people are doing and not enough time worrying about being the best person they can be within their own belief. Personally it reminds me of a couple of spoiled children huffing and puffing and whining cause Johny got a bite more ice cream then Jimmy or cause "MOM loves you best."
We honestly choose to let these things bug us or not and it seems that in a season when so much of the focus of all religions is on forgiveness, rebirth and peace we should just live and love to the best of our ability



http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/PoliticallyCorrectChristmas/images2/bors.jpg

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

Sometimes it baffles me what odd subjects some folks and groups pick to go on a major crusade.


There are people freezing in the street, children going without decent clothes and enough food to eat, and yet so many of the people who speak of "Putting Christ first" in this season are not the ones you see standing behind the serving counter at the Soup Kitchen, are not the ones who adopt families for the holidays or who support programs to help children. They would rather spend their funds on lawyers and lawsuits to make sure we all celebrate the same. Maybe they should be more concerned that we ALL CAN celebrate.
Sad fact in this country, the percentage of donations to income is highest with those who can least afford it, maybe because they know what it is to want, or need and not have.
I say the people who want to waste time arguing about what to call a big beautiful and now dead tree on the steps of their local government buildings should maybe spend some of that time and energy remembering what the message of this season is actually about. Love and peace and prosperity to all.


http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/PoliticallyCorrectChristmas/images2/crowson.jpg

[swamptoad]

On the November 9 broadcast of his television show, Fox News host Bill O'Reilly said "I don't believe most people who aren't Christian are offended by the words 'Merry Christmas.' I think those people are nuts." Later, when guest Philip Nulman, an advertising and marketing executive, said that using the phrases "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays" does not offend Christians, O'Reilly disagreed. "It absolutely does," he said. "And I know that for a fact."


Well what about those people that are dislexic either by accident or on purpose: saying things like: "Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year"?

The War Against Christmas ... Led by President Bush

We haven’t really waded into the supposed controversy over “Happy Holidays” versus “Merry Xmas” because, well, there are more important things happening in the world. But the irony (and hypocrisy) surrounding this is too funny to pass up. Anyway, if you’re not up-to-speed, conservative commentators are beating the drums on a phony ‘War on Christmas.’ Their thesis: secularists are on a mission to take Christmas away from Americans. The weapon of choice? The non-religious ‘Happy Holidays.’ That greeting, of course, covers all your bases: Hanukah, Kwanza, whatever.

The delightful ironies:

The most powerful man in the world, President George W. Bush, wishes close friends and supporters a happy "holiday season.” “What's missing from the White House Christmas card?” asks The Washington Post. “Christmas.”

Bill O’Reilly, who has recently waged a campaign against corporations that greet customers with "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas,” has an online store that sells “Holiday” ornaments for your "Holiday tree.”

http://mediamatters.org/items/200511300006 --> check out the 88 responses thus far and probably still growing about the Bill O'Reilly and the holiday ornaments

John Gibson is another Fox News employee who’s active in the campaign, even writing a book about the ‘war.’ So he may not be pleased with Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp, the company that owns Fox News. In addition to selling 'Holiday' ornaments, News Corp is throwing a “Holiday Party.”

by Eric Hananoki on December 7, 2005 - 1:57pm.

The Meaning of Christmas...

Sonti Ramirez and Nestor Sayo take a look at how Christmas is viewed by young people of different religions...

It’s more about spending money than a true celebration.

Christmas is here; bright lights in the streets, decorations in shops and people selling pine trees here, there and everywhere. And who of course could forget Santa Claus!

As young adults we think Christmas is a time when you spend money but it is also a peaceful period marking a religious event. Whereas, when we were younger we thought Santa Claus was real and just looked forward to opening our presents on Christmas morning.

Right now millions of young people around the world are eagerly counting down the days until they wake up to find presents at the ends of their beds.

With all of this going on, it’s easy to forget that not everyone celebrates Christmas. But in fact more than 3 million people in the UK identify with another religion other than Christianity, which works out to be more than a quarter of the population.

Nivine, 10, is one of 1.6 million Muslim people in the UK and for her Christmas is an important day because it symbolises the birth of Christ but it’s not the most important day in the year:

"Eid marks the end of Ramadan so this is the most precious day for Muslims," she says. But she adds that this doesn’t mean she and her family ignore Christmas:

"My family still give gifts to our friends and other people who celebrate it, but we don’t give gifts to each other. We don’t have things like tinsel or trees in our house but my sister and I make paper chains."

Mariya is also Muslim and agrees that Christmas is special:
"It’s not just another day because there is a very different atmosphere in the air. It’s a religious way of giving thanks to Jesus.


We don’t go and do anything religious on Christmas day like going to church but my family does take a day off work and sometimes we put up a Christmas tree."

After Islam, the next largest religion in Britain is Hinduism. Natasha, 15, is Hindu but says her family is not very religious. She finds it hard not to get into the spirit of Christmas, even though she is not Christian, because it is everywhere:

"England has a Christian history and as most people in this country are Christian, it is almost impossible not to make it the largest celebration of the year."

Natasha says her and her family don’t do anything ‘religious’ at Christmas but they do buy into the commercialised side of it, like having a tree and buying presents. Whilst Natasha enjoys this, she thinks it’s sad that Christmas is becoming more about money than meaning:

"The fact that Christmas is a Christian holiday is becoming less and less important with each generation as the religious celebration gets exchanged for the commercial.

In many ways Christmas has been cheapened by profit making companies and the media. It’s more about spending money than a true celebration."

Natasha isn’t the only one who feels this way. Daniel, 15, is Jewish and also believes that Christmas is more about receiving presents than the birth of Jesus:

"I feel the concept of Christmas has been cheapened over the years. Companies see it as a way of making money. Many people still celebrate Christmas for its original purpose but I think that they are now in the minority."

According to market analysts Mintel, the average adult in the UK this year will spend more than £300 on presents for family members and friends alone. Their report also highlights that over half the population say they spend more than they intend to, with only 38% sticking to their original budgets.

Zak, 13, who is a practising Muslim says: "I think the youth these days just think about presents too much. Some people believe in Santa Claus and some don’t, even though I am not a Christian I think they [Christians] should think about the true meaning of Christmas."

Although a lot of young people we interviewed seemed to think young Christian people are clouded by the importance that Santa Claus and the presents are given, we think young people do also believe in the real meaning of Christmas. We understand the celebration as being about remembering Jesus but also about families getting together, having fun and producing a spirit, which in a way is religious.

Like us, the people we spoke to seemed to enjoy the Christmas spirit, even though they were all non-Christian. Zak enjoys Christmas because of the effect it has on people:

"Most people are happy and there is less trouble."

Daniel adds: "I like the sense of festivity, and in many ways fraternity, that Christmas brings. Everyone seems to be jovial and upbeat and everyone is far more generous than usual."

Finding out what young people from other faiths think of Christmas has been very interesting and enlightening. Maybe in the future it would be nice to celebrate one of their religious celebrations - but for now we’ll just look forward to the 25th and all those presents!

About the team
This story was produced by Sonti Ramirez and Nestor Sayo, 12.It was published by Reach for the Sky Website.

[swamptoad]

I love your posts T'rina :-)

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

I love your posts T'rina :-)


Why thank you kind sirhttp://cagle.msnbc.com/news/PoliticallyCorrectChristmas/images2/asay.gif

[Tarella]

Personally, I am far more bothered that I have a hard time these days getting into the Christmas spirit due to the gross commercialism of it all, whether they call it Christmas or Holiday spirit.

I have to admit the desire of wanting to go back to a more simpler version of the holiday season..back to the main reasons people celebrate it. My family has tried to do that buy setting strict limits on what we purchase, putting meaning back into gifts, playing games, and talking about what we are thankful for during the past year. As a very smart person once told me....simplicity can be the most sophisticated quality of all.

PS: I also fully admit that I can still totally get into the Holiday baking and treats ;) . IT's the best excuse yet to go a little overboard on food and baking.

Merry Christmas

Tara:)

[Tina]

Never leave any opportunity to put in some partisan political swipes. :)

Yeah. Makes it easy though -- like shooting fish in a barrell -- given that this whole hoopla was started on Fox, the conservative station, and then picked up by others from the conservative media just looking to make a mountain out of... nothing.

Fact is, I've always said "happy holidays" at some times and "merry christmas" at others. I don't think it matters. I guess this is the big important issue, since there's nothing else going on in the world right now... http://tcdesign.net/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

http://webcontent.harpercollins.com/images/medium/0061059056.jpg

Now that is my idea of a holiday book

All about a plot to destroy Christmas (I mean HOGWATCH)

Check it out (http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/pratchett/site/books/description.asp?isbn=0061059056)

[Delaney]

I am planning a war on the number 84 and other various abstract concepts


*snicker* That literally made me laugh out loud.

[fatlane]

Well, I'm personally gonna celebrate Festivus this year.

[Jane]

Bacchals here.

[LillyBBBW]

There are people freezing in the street, children going without decent clothes and enough food to eat, and yet so many of the people who speak of "Putting Christ first" in this season are not the ones you see standing behind the serving counter at the Soup Kitchen, are not the ones who adopt families for the holidays or who support programs to help children. They would rather spend their funds on lawyers and lawsuits to make sure we all celebrate the same.

I was on your side 100% until you made this statement. Like you I have my issues with big mouths in the church who certainly don't speak for all Christain believers. But I see more churches giving away more turkeys, more toys, more meals, more clothing all year round than any other institution. If you can show me a Gothic or Pagan benevolent children's relief fund someplace ringing a bell in front of a shopping mall I'd be happy to write a check. I can think of three churches in my my general area alone who each give out an average of 250 turkeys to needy families, collecting and donating money to local area food banks and who sponsor drop off places for toys, coats and warm clothing to be distributed without question to anyone who asks.

It's nice to know that people from all walks of life are getting out there and giving of their time to help those who are in need this season. This is the way it should be, everyone doing their part and certainly no contribution is to belittled or discounted. But your statements here reek of the same self righteous attitude which is just as distasteful as it is coming form anyone else.

[Wilson Barbers]

Me, I'm getting a small charge out of watching these idiots froth and moan: while the rest of us strive to celebrate the holidays the best we know how, getting pleasures from whatever traditions we cherish, the War on Christmas Crowd are loudly standing at the barricades, eagerly straining their ears for the first "Happy Holidays" they hear. They're expending so much effort striving to be A-lert and A-ware that they're missing the small seasonal joys all around 'em. . .

[Tina]

You know, FLO, today I could *totally* go for Festivus. There are a couple of people I'd like to celebrate on... ;)

[Sandie_Zitkus]

And for those who tirelessly crusade to expunge religion from the public eye - dude. We live in a society that's predominantly Christian. We can't help it if some of that spills over into what we say and do publicly...

Oh please. Christianity is nothing but redone Paganism.:rolleyes: So what you are actually doing is celebrating Pagan Holy Days under the banner of Christianity. Sooooooo TECHNICALLY our society is predominantly PAGAN!!!:doh:

[Jane]

I am seldom in the "holiday spirit" at the time of the holidays. Middle of March it might kick in and I buy for the people I want to. Otherwise, I'm just going through the motions. That's no fun. Sometimes it hits early, and I have a ton of presents (which I give out early). My son has come to accept it. He just asks for cash. LOL

On a side note, I give to my favorite charities and political parties and candidates throughout the year.

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

Or, I should say, A fictional 'war on Christmas' [I get so tired of all the made up tempests in tea pots. Personally, I've seen no "war on Christmas" here and believe it's just made up malarkey.]

By T. Jeremy Gunn 1 hour, 55 minutes ago

Last December, a group called Public Advocate for the United States (which claims to defend America's traditional family values) sent some Christmas carolers over to sing in front of the ACLU offices in Washington.

Carrying signs reading "Merry Christmas" and "Please Don't Sue Us!" - they also seem to have carried with them some rather strange imaginings about an assault on Christmas. (Related: Law doesn't mandate a secular Christmas | The year's dust-ups)

I don't know what the carolers thought might happen.

To tell the truth, the ACLU is not often serenaded by Christmas carolers. So it was with some excitement that the staff went outside and joined in the singing. They brought with them cookies and warm drinks to share. One staff member, who is an ordained Baptist minister, did a little witnessing about his faith to some astonished proponents of family values.

Fox News did broadcast the event (as a part of its "war against Christmas" campaign). Although the visiting singers were shown, the cameras failed to include any footage showing that everyone had participated in the caroling. Rather than reporting the facts, the anchor preferred the propaganda: "We believe the ACLU heard the message loud and clear, but they don't care."

The battle cries

This year, several groups are once again introducing the Christmas season with some heated and misleading military rhetoric. Some declare, "There is a war against Christmas!" One group launched a "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign." One particularly bizarre charge is that there is "a thorough and virulent anti-Christmas campaign." Without a shred of evidence, they pretend that there is an effort afoot to remove "God" from the Declaration of Independence. Two groups even announced that they have assembled hundreds of lawyers to protect Christmas against this imaginary threat.

Make no mistake about it. These warrior-lawyers are not asking us to love our neighbors (and certainly not our enemies), nor to turn the other cheek, nor to be peacemakers, nor to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Nor is this a joyful effort to encourage the Christmas spirit in the millions of places where it can be promoted without any conflict: in people's hearts, in their homes, with families, in churches, or with friend and neighbors.

No, this is a campaign of military-infused rhetoric demanding that everyone accept one politically correct version of "Christmas."

For example, this year in Boston - the same city where Puritans once prohibited the pagan-inspired "Christmas tree" - the new Puritans now demand that the city call its evergreen spruce a "Christmas tree," and they threatened a lawsuit if the city didn't comply.

Another group charges that there is a "campaign of fear, intimidation, and disinformation" against seasonal symbols in Raleigh, N.C. - and they offer to provide a defense for the city against any threatened lawsuit. Yet they give no evidence that anyone is threatening a lawsuit. Before accusing others of engaging in "disinformation," perhaps these Christmas warriors should first take a look in the mirror.

Why this desire to manufacture controversy - about Christmas?

Guidelines already exist

Rather than engaging in propaganda about a "war on Christmas," all who want to promote the spirit of Christmas should remember a couple of simple guidelines.

First, Christmas displays - including nativity scenes - are perfectly acceptable at homes and churches. This religious expression is a valued and protected part of the First Amendment rights guaranteed to all citizens.

Second, governments should not be in the business of endorsing religious displays. Religion does best when government stays out of the business of deciding which holidays and religions to promote. Religion belongs where it prospers best: with individuals, families and religious communities.

And finally, as a seasonal greeting to all Christians: Merry Christmas from the ACLU! And for believers in all other traditions: Thank you for enriching our world!

T. Jeremy Gunn is director of the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.


These far-right wing religious fundamentalists seem to see evil bogeymen under every rock. They have a seige mentality and they are fixated on the idea that Christians (defined here as conservative fundamentalists) are under attack. They make me sick! They are an embarassment to Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

All smoke and mirrors designed to keep us from questioning the true, unthinkable problems: Poverty, government sanctioned torture, a deficit that will cripple our children's future, tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans while children go to bed hungry.

"Don't Think of an Elephant." Read it.


True. It's much easier to keep people divided over non-issue "issues" like a war on Christmas, flag burning, posting the ten commandments on government property and school prayer. That way people won't bad together to deal with the intractable economic problems of poverty, ignorance, and fruitless wars on terrorism.

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

There is no war on Christmas. Jerry Falwell and his ilk are just trying to stir up trouble and controversy out of nothing. They always have to have an enemy to project their hate on to.

No one is offended by Merry Christmas. Religious Christmas songs have been played at every store I've been to this year. Silent Night, Little Drummer Boy, Joy to the World and so on. Nativity scenes are everywhere. No one complained, no one protested, no riots broke out.

As a rule I never say Happy Holidays. Because if you say Merry Christmas to a non-Christian they really don't mind. But if you say Happy Holidays to a Christian you run the risk of having someone get really ticked off at you.

All the people protesting and angrily screaming catch phrases like "Put the Christ back into Christmas!" are in serious need of some Christmas spirit. Perhaps they should also be reminded that they are in fact celebrating a co-opted Pagan holiday. I saw a photo of a Pastor dressed as Santa protesting outside of a Walmart. If he only knew.


Jerry Falwell and his ilk will never be happy unless they can force the rest of the country to adopt and abide by a conservative Christian worldview. Jesus would be shocked by their actions.

[DDP]

First- I know this is a liberal board so I'll take a walk on the thin ice riding piggyback on a 500 lb womans back....if only-

Christmas is a Christian holiday for the observance of the birth of the Christ. No one knows the exact date of birth. I don't know how the gift giving thing came about 100's of years ago, I guess somehow it was man's answer to give to his fellow man & family as God gave to man the gift of the Christ. Corporations have learned that to discriminate against a race, culture, or any sub-group is unprofitable. A non believer's dollar spends as well as a believer's dollar. So therefore you have the Happy Holidays thing and Seasons Greetings stuff. I'm suprise they haven't set a guideline on how much to spend for different people for "the holidays" like they have for engagement rings. If someone does not believe in God the term Merry Christmas should not offend, just like if you are at a birthday party for someone else. People just need to be strong and realize that.
I believe in God and the way of do unto others as you would like to have done to you. Alot of people that I know that don't believe do so because it's trendy, they don't know who the are, religion was made up to keep people under control by the ultimate threat of the unknown afterlife, and/or because the church goers are the "goody-two shoes" type and they don't want to be associated with them. Back before tv and the modern way of life, church was the main form of social life. Like anything, classical music, classic rock :), and other forms of previous arts/ entertainment, there are still reminates in todays world. If any of you here know that in any hobby, organization or craft, in the group there are always the non-interested that want to be somewhere else, the one's hanging on to keep afloat, the person with an average interest, the above avg interest person, and the elitist that does nothing but that activity. Religion is no exception. I never saw the reason to dress up to go to church than to impress other people, and some take it to the extremes "holier than thou", that's why I haven't gone to church in years. Those that maybe unsure of themselves may take it to mean, "if that's the way things have to be then count me out, because it don't want to be like them". No one owns God and God is no one's genie servant in the bottle who comes out and justifies one's wrongs and goes back in until something else goes wrong.
The thing of it is, there is a war on Christmas and it's almost over because the day to recognize the birth of Christ has been desenitized. The corporations have won. It's all about the dollar, the true American God (like on They Live - with the sunglasses).

DDP

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

People simply spend too much time worrying about what other people are doing and not enough time worrying about being the best person they can be within their own belief. Personally it reminds me of a couple of spoiled children huffing and puffing and whining cause Johny got a bite more ice cream then Jimmy or cause "MOM loves you best."
We honestly choose to let these things bug us or not and it seems that in a season when so much of the focus of all religions is on forgiveness, rebirth and peace we should just live and love to the best of our ability

Go girl, go! If people would respect each other's rights and focus on doing their best to live well, we wouldn't have all this unnecessary controversy.

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

Yeah. Makes it easy though -- like shooting fish in a barrell -- given that this whole hoopla was started on Fox, the conservative station, and then picked up by others from the conservative media just looking to make a mountain out of... nothing.

Fact is, I've always said "happy holidays" at some times and "merry christmas" at others. I don't think it matters. I guess this is the big important issue, since there's nothing else going on in the world right now... http://tcdesign.net/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

When people don't have enough substantive work to do, they squander their time on trifles.

[Tina]

The thing of it is, there is a war on Christmas and it's almost over because the day to recognize the birth of Christ has been desenitized. The corporations have won. It's all about the dollar, the true American God (like on They Live - with the sunglasses).

DDP

I love They Live. It's a wonderfully bad movie with some great moments and concepts.

I don't see what you describe as being so much a war on Christ as just greed. Crappy? Yes, but a war on Christ? No.

[Jack Skellington]

If you can show me a Gothic or Pagan benevolent children's relief fund someplace ringing a bell in front of a shopping mall I'd be happy to write a check.

There is more to "Pagan" culture than those Goth kids hanging around Hot Topic that have seen The Craft way too many times.

[GunnDancer]

I'm just gonna say this. I don't get up in anyones face for celebrating their holidays so they better not get in my face for celebrating mine. I don't get mad when people are allowed to say Happy Chunakah or Merry Kwanza or have a Happy Ramadan..so NO ONE better stomp on me for saying Merry Christmas. Yes, I'm aware that technically Christmas is a "pagan" holiday, but you know what? For millions of people who celebrate it as a Christian holiday, let them have it? Geez...this is SUPPOSED to be the one time of year where we put aside our differences and get along!

Lastly, I will leave you with this one story:
In the first grade, my oldest neice drew a picture of the Nativity Scene in school. WELL, the teacher threw a hissy fit and made her go to the principals office and they called my brother about it! Well, it seems that same day they let another little girl put on a little presentation about Kwanza(not targeting Kwanza, this is just how the story unfolds). Let me just say that my brother was down there and reamed out the principal AND the teacher but good.

If you want equality, you have to treat everyone the same, otherwise it's not really equality is it?

[Tragdor]

The war on Christmas was actually started by the Puritans because they hated its connection with Catholicism and materialism. I think the Puritans would feel a kinship with people who constantly complain about the commercial nature of Christmas. Sure it’s commercialized but we in a society were the very image of socialism has become a commodity (Che shirts anyone?)

Just relax have a good laugh about it and celebrate with your loved ones. If it irks you so much then create your own anti-consumerist way of making Christmas, don’t try and preach and guilt trip people who are self centered materialists like me who like getting lots of things.

[GunnDancer]

Damn right, you tell it like it is Burninator.

[exile in thighville]

knotty scruples like this make me so glad i'm jewish. we get our 8 days to feel like champs, and then we go back to the ranks of liberal guilt and ruining it for everyone else by forcing the uncomfortable townspeople to put up a huge menorah beside the christmas tree even though there's only a handful of us in the region. i love political correctness..it makes everything so much easier for us only marginally talented comedians.

[Jack Skellington]

i love political correctness.

It's nice it works for somebody.

No way in hades could Witches force anyone to put our religious symbols in a holiday display. Not counting Santa of course. :D

[GunnDancer]

lol Technically he's not a witch symbol! He is a recognized saint! :D

[Jack Skellington]

lol Technically he's not a witch symbol! He is a recognized saint! :D

I still get a smile when I see the Holly King standing by Nativity scenes. Just the visual image of the Green Man standing with the wise men looking at baby Jesus. It's just too cool.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

I was on your side 100% until you made this statement. Like you I have my issues with big mouths in the church who certainly don't speak for all Christain believers. But I see more churches giving away more turkeys, more toys, more meals, more clothing all year round than any other institution. If you can show me a Gothic or Pagan benevolent children's relief fund someplace ringing a bell in front of a shopping mall I'd be happy to write a check. I can think of three churches in my my general area alone who each give out an average of 250 turkeys to needy families, collecting and donating money to local area food banks and who sponsor drop off places for toys, coats and warm clothing to be distributed without question to anyone who asks.

It's nice to know that people from all walks of life are getting out there and giving of their time to help those who are in need this season. This is the way it should be, everyone doing their part and certainly no contribution is to belittled or discounted. But your statements here reek of the same self righteous attitude which is just as distasteful as it is coming form anyone else.
Sorry, Lilly, but I agree with T'Rina.

Most of what the Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertsons, and James Dobsons in this world do is for their own benefit, and is far removed from true Christianity. You don't hear about the good your local churches are doing because it's drown out by all the attention-getters who give Christianity a bad name.

And they will continue to have power as long aspeople give it to them.

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

I was on your side 100% until you made this statement. Like you I have my issues with big mouths in the church who certainly don't speak for all Christain believers. But I see more churches giving away more turkeys, more toys, more meals, more clothing all year round than any other institution. If you can show me a Gothic or Pagan benevolent children's relief fund someplace ringing a bell in front of a shopping mall I'd be happy to write a check. I can think of three churches in my my general area alone who each give out an average of 250 turkeys to needy families, collecting and donating money to local area food banks and who sponsor drop off places for toys, coats and warm clothing to be distributed without question to anyone who asks.

It's nice to know that people from all walks of life are getting out there and giving of their time to help those who are in need this season. This is the way it should be, everyone doing their part and certainly no contribution is to belittled or discounted. But your statements here reek of the same self righteous attitude which is just as distasteful as it is coming form anyone else.


I did not say CHURCHES as a group don't do a lot, I think they do and in my past when I was homeless for a while they were a great help. I am talking about INDIVIDUALS in and out of churches who would rather tell others what to think then help others in more physical ways. I respect the basis of pretty much all religions because most of them come down to the fact of loving and respecting each other.
As far as a goth or Pagan relief group my Goth friends donate a great deal on many different holidays just as a group of friends which is sometimes all a person can do.
In the long run people are not groups, we are individuals, we just make up groups. And in the long run it comes down to each individual working alone or in a group to do what they can, sorry if I made it seem I am out after churches as an entity I am not, only those INDIVIDUALS who have nothing better to do with their time then tell others what to think. For that matter anyone can think oh there is not enough religion in Christmas, I am not condemning the thought itself, just the idea that someone could force me or anyone else to change our views or our celebration of those views when they harm no one else.

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

There is more to "Pagan" culture than those Goth kids hanging around Hot Topic that have seen The Craft way too many times.

There just as many if not more christian goths then there are Pagan goths (there are Jewish goths and probably most of all Agnostic goths), most pagans are not goth and probably don't understand gothic culture any better then the average person on the street.
For me to say I am Pagan and a Goth is like another person saying they are Christian and a Square Dancer or Jewish and an artist, they are not the same thing but they both describe the person.

Here are a few simple links about Modern Pagan Culture which can tell you about it far better then I can.
PAGAN CULTURE NEVER DIED (http://www.awarenessshop.com/KnowledgeBase/pagancultureneve.html)

Wikipedia on NeoPaganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism)

I don't claim to be an authority on either Pagan culture or gothic culture it is just who I am.

[Single26Female]

I don't think it's a church problem or a non-church problem, I think it's a people problem.

People are designed to do what's best for themselves...looking out for number one is how we are wired.

In fact, those people who don't look out for themselves first are considered disordered within the diagnostic mental health world (self-sacraficing)!!! Our society encourages cover your ass dog eat dog step on your balls on the way up the ladder behaviors!

There are good and bad Christians and good and bad non-Christians. I think good isn't related to religion. Good is respecting and advancing yourself while respecting and advancing others...and living in 2005 makes that difficult to accomplish!

A guy in my hometown was the FIRST person in the US to sue over the 10 Commandments being in a public forum. He admitted he didn't even care he just thought he would like the challenge. I think some people just like the fight. It's fun to win. I think a lot of those Christmas/holiday activists are just trying to have their side win!

Merry Holidays people! :)

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

lol Technically he's not a witch symbol! He is a recognized saint! :D

He is both a pagan and Christian/catholic symbol
Like many such symbols the way we see and precieve Santa Claus, Father Christmas is an amagamation of multiple sources and lstories.

Santa Claus as we precieve him, a bearded gift giving man of winter holidays comes from a mixture of Saint Nicholas of Myra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas_of_Myra) ((patron saint of seamen, merchants, archers, children, prostitutes, pharmacists, lawyers, pawnbrokers, prisoners, the city of Amsterdam and of Russia)), Odin (Wodan) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin) of the Germanic peoples (who placed candy or gifts near the chimney in place of food and gifts for his flying horse)),.

Modern Santa came about in the 1800s

As you might guess one of my favorite site is WIKIPEDIA here is there very extensive article on Santa Claus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_claus)

[tankgirl]

... If you can show me a Gothic or Pagan benevolent children's relief fund someplace ringing a bell in front of a shopping mall I'd be happy to write a check. .....

Find me more than...oh, maybe ten now? if that? organizations of a pagan or gothic or any OTHER serious minority for that matter who can AFFORD to...
I dunno. I don't fucking know. I DO know there aren't a lot. And I DO know it's more of a PITA than anyone here could give it credit for. Buddy of mine runs one of the larger pagan/wiccan/etc communal support groups around here. He's running a coat drive, a food drive, collecting for Toys for Tots and COLLECTING for as much as he can. But we're a really small group. Really small groups make really small donations. ESPECIALLY if 90% of the population is Christian/Muslim/non-pagan-whatever and trying to ignore you..... Most of us just swallow our prides and volunteer at the local Salvation Army and Goodwill and such and donate what we can. Give it to the people that CAN do some good whereas we're too small to do much.
Go figure.
"Peace on earth might be safe."
Riiiiiiight. [insert one of 33 snappy political comments here]

....Fuck your happy holidays. Fuck your merry christmas. Fuck your presents and gimme gimme bullshit. Fuck your commercials, and FUCK your "Only SOMEHTING OR OTHER .99!!!!" IT'S 99­¢ YOU STUPID GITS!! CALL IT THE DOLLAR THAT IT IS!! Fuck your winter wonderland, and straight to HELL with the sleigh rides. Fuck "Silent Night," fuck snow, and fuck candy canes. Fuck christmas trees, and to hell with Santa. Fuck little kids in those stupid christmas costume bundler warmer suit thingies- IT'S *N*O*T* CUTE, YOU FUCKING RETARDS! Little kids are NOT reindeer, they are NOT eskimos- and in spring! DEAR GOD! In SPRING, they are NOT bunnies, they are NOT eggs, they are NOT fucking bumblebees, or frogs, or.... OR ANYTHING ELSE!!! THEY'RE FUCKING STUPID LITTLE KIDS!
I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!!!!

*feels hateful, really hateful, and takes it elsewhere before it gets worse*

[Elfcat]

Jon Stewart cracked me up with what he said about the non-issue of "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas."

Oh, Jon Stewart seems to have mounted his own personal counter X-ade on some of this stuff. Earlier in the year he panned some of the congresscritters speaking of the assault on Christianity:

"I pray for the day when Christians can practice their faith in public, wearing their symbols prominently, and - dare I hope - an openly Christian president!"

ThisLittlePiggy left it to me to mention my own favorite part of the most recent exchange in response to O'Reilly: "Here's your Kwanzaa present Bill. You want an enemy? OK. I'm your enemy. I hate Christmas, Christians, Jews, morality; and I will not rest until families gather every December 25th, at Osama's Homobortion Pot & Commie Jizzporium!" :shocked:

[Wilson Barbers]

Never leave any opportunity to put in some partisan political swipes. :)

To be fair, Conrad, much of this is, at root, steeped in partisan political swiping and self-described victimization. O'Reilly and his ilk see it as part of a larger conflict against the Ee-vil Forces of Liberal Secularism (best repped in their eyes by the ACLU, who've been subjected to some pretty silly protest attempts lately). A few choice individual anecdotes (some real, some invented, some taken from a misinterpreted events that happened years ago) of official insensitivity - of which there is never short supply - and you can quickly build the "case" for a concerted "campaign" against the Christian holiday.

The larger goal, which is somewhat more pernicious, is to continue to add fuel to ongoing accusations of the Liberals-Are-Trying-to-Take-Away-Everything-That's-Right-And-Decent battlefield mentality that hacks like O'Reilly have been trading on for years. Recently, I received an email which claimed that the ACLU was engaging in a campaign to remove the crosses from military cemetary - a claim that's debunked (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/cemetery.asp) at the "urban legends" sites but which continues to get passed around because there are plenty of folks out there ready to immediately believe any dumb charges being leveled in the War of Ideologies. In this kind of hyperbolic political environment, it's easy to see how a trumped-up "War" on Christmas can get sold in PunditLand.

[Wilson Barbers]

And since Solstice is comin' up, here's a musical rumination on the matter:

The Christians and the Pagans
by Dar Williams

Amber called her uncle, said, "We're up here for the holiday,
Jane and I were having Solstice, now we need a place to stay."
And her Christ-loving uncle watched his wife hang Mary on a tree,
He watched his son hang candy canes all made with red dye number three.
He told his niece, "It's Christmas eve, I know our life is not your style,"
She said, "Christmas is like Solstice, and we miss you and it's been a while."

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said,
Sending hope for peace on earth to all their gods and goddesses.

The food was great, the tree plugged in, the meal had gone without a hitch,
Till Timmy turned to Amber and said, "Is it true that you're a witch?"
His mom jumped up and said, "The pies are burning," and she hit the kitchen,
And it was Jane who spoke, she said, "It's true, you're cousin's not a Christian,
But we love trees, we love the snow, the friends we have, the world we share,
And you find magic from your God, and we find magic everywhere."

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
And where does magic come from, I think magic's in the learning,
'Cause now when Christians sit with Pagans only pumpkin pies are burning.

When Amber tried to do the dishes, her aunt said, "Really, no, don't bother."
Amber's uncle saw how Amber looked like Tim and like her father.
He thought about his brother, how they hadn't spoken in a year,
He thought he'd call him up and say, "It's Christmas and your daughter's here."
He thought of fathers, sons and brothers, saw his own son tug his sleeve,
Saying, "Can I be a Pagan?" Dad said, "We'll discuss it when they leave."

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
Lighting trees in darkness, learning new ways from the old,
And making sense of history and drawing warmth out of the cold.

[LillyBBBW]

Find me more than...oh, maybe ten now? if that? organizations of a pagan or gothic or any OTHER serious minority for that matter who can AFFORD to... <snipped>

*feels hateful, really hateful, and takes it elsewhere before it gets worse*

Churches are people. They don't sell anything, manufacture anything. They are people who share a faith and the entire institution is funded by those individuals and no one else. People give a certain percentage of their income to keep the heat and lights on, pay the water bill, keep the facilities up to code and make sure the pastor, his wife and 8 kids can afford to eat and get good medical care. Any other monies given extra by those same individual is called an offering. Those offerings are to go towards helping the community at large as seen fit by overseers of the church who are volunteers. These things are done meticulously as churches do have to report their financial records to the IRS and those reports are also available to the public upon request.

Are there bad churches? Certainly - just like there are bad pagans, bad muslims, bad teachers, bad actors. I suppose if Pagans were to band together and form a non profit organization where the members committed to funnelling a portion of their whole income into it you might be able to do more. But you want to steer clear of doing anything like that. Wouldn't want to look like Jerry Fallwell or any of the other misguided ministers who spout off hatred against what they don't understand.

You can fuck as many of us as you like while you're slinging out food in homeless shelters where a great portion of it was paid for by religious folk beyond a tenth of every penny they've made. Some unseen force motivates 90% of the people on the planet to commit to giving away their money asking nothing in return. Yes I know. We give our money away because we're all brainwashed by Pat Robertson to pay our way into Heaven, right? Don't let him get you too hun. Heaven forbid you should be deceived into giving your hard earned money away.

While you're busy hating our children, 100 churches mosques and synagogues have written another check gathered from the income of people who above all else have placed importance on the spirit of giving all year long without seeking credit or validation. What a concept.

[Boteroesque Babe]

I don't think it's being made a partisan issue. It IS a partisan issue. (Conrad, please put your hands over your ears for this part.) It appears when the religious right has their candidate in the White House, jolly well mucking up the universe and doling out hand-jobs to big business, they have to invent things to get their panties in a bunch about.

Y'want genuine issues? My favorite web community has been invaded by drunk children, suicide pacts, and grown-ass people who think it's okay to kick a dead body. Every night during winter homeless people die on the street. Sometimes on MY street. My country is fighting a war for reasons not held by a majority of its citizens. And this morning a transit strike has left 7 million of my fellow New Yorkers without a way to work and school. Yeah. Faux issues make me laugh.

When I mean Merry Christmas, I say Merry Christmas. When I mean enjoy whatever, if any, year-end holiday you and your family celebrate, I say Happy Holidays. Sheesh, already.

(Earmuffs again, Conrad.)

Ignorance + lazy journalism = Fox News.

[Jes]

What's crazy is that I missed all this. I missed the suicide pacts, and the drunk children. Ok, no, I totally saw the drunk children.

Perhaps some levity: My mother mentioned on the phone the other day about a vote (I believe in chicago, or in my hometown or something, but I could be very off)--a town decided that yes, a creche/manger scene could be displayed, but that no, a Jesus could not be placed in the manger.

Eh, what?

[MissToodles]

I'm not offended if people wish me a Merry Christmas. I'm jewish though raised in a secular household. It's the intentions behind the words and not the actual words themselves.

I did use the all purpose "Happy Holidays" to a professor. I wasn't sure if he was Jewish or not.

Again, I think this entire thing is a distraction, much like the gay marriage debate.

[fatlane]

Oh please. Christianity is nothing but redone Paganism.:rolleyes: So what you are actually doing is celebrating Pagan Holy Days under the banner of Christianity. Sooooooo TECHNICALLY our society is predominantly PAGAN!!!:doh:




There's so much to go into on this topic, but, yeah, it'd be waaaaay off purpose for the board and, as Ian Gillan said in "Ted the Mechanic",

And another thing I won't discuss is reeeeeeeee-ligion
It always causes a fight...

I would recommend to interested readers to consider Karen Armstrong's book, A History of God and Richard Fletcher's The Barbarian Conversion. Although I take certain strong exceptions to Armstrong's conclusions, her documentation of religious changes is excellent. Fletcher's work describes the process of conversion and how it never, ever, was an on/off switch from one faith to the next.

Moreover, "paganism" is a terrible catch-all phrase devised by Christian Roman Emperors to denigrate all other ways of belief not immediately associated with those in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. All Judaeo-Christians who didn't agree with the Official Imperial Christianity were labeled "heretics", except the Jews, who were labeled, "Jews". All three groups were persecuted mercilessly by the Christian Romans. Anyway, "paganism" took in everything from Germanic animists to Greek philosophic monotheists. The philosophic monotheism is what the central Christian churches subsumed the most, while the common rabble preserved their less-sophisticated folkways by tacking on an "amen" or a "praise Jesus" at the end.

Personally, I don't have lights, trees, or stuff like that. I do exchange gifts because why the hell not? Everyone else is doing it and it's fun. The gift exchanges go with the feast day set aside for Jesus, so I say "Merry Chrristmas" at that time. When my Muslim buddies are swapping gifts at Eid, it's "Eid Mubarak". For the Hindu crowd, I wish 'em a "Kushi Diwali" and appreciate their festival of light. Hannukah is a happy time, but nowhere near as important as Passover or Rosh Hashanah, which I respect and appreciate, even if I do not observe those high holy days.

Anyway, Merry Christmas. That's the one I go with this time of year. Come right back at me with any other holiday you're observing and we can share in the niceness of the coincidence of good feelings and days set aside for religious reflection and celebration.

[fatlane]

You know, FLO, today I could *totally* go for Festivus. There are a couple of people I'd like to celebrate on... ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus

http://www.seinfeld-fan.net/festivus.php

http://mantoddindustries.packetnexus.com/

http://www.festivusbook.com/

It's the holiday craze that's sweeping the nation!

[Jes]

Come right back at me with any other holiday you're observing and we can share in the niceness of the coincidence of good feelings and days set aside for religious reflection and celebration.


3 words for you: Holy Jennifer Day.
(it gets forgotten most years by most people, so I've become quite my own little horn-blower)

[Webmaster]

There's so much to go into on this topic, but, yeah, it'd be waaaaay off purpose for the board and, as Ian Gillan said in "Ted the Mechanic",...

You know, fatlane, you're a really good and eloquent writer. I highly admire and respect that.

[Jane]

Also from Wikipedia....

Dionysus or Dionysos (Ancient Greek: Διώνυσος or Διόνυσος; also known as Bacchus in both Greek and Roman mythology and associated with the Italic Liber), the Thracian god of wine, represents not only the intoxicating power of wine, but also its social and beneficent influences. He is viewed as the promoter of civilization, a lawgiver, and lover of peace — as well as the patron deity of both agriculture and the theater.

Greeks borrowed Dionysus' figure and within the Olympian tradition he is made to be the son of Zeus and Semele; other versions of the story contend that he is the son of Zeus and Persephone.

Those sects who worship Dionysus exclusively, or in more common cases Dionysus and Aphrodite, are sometimes known to conduct orgiastic rituals and use numerous intoxicants in attempts to reach earthly gratification and euphoria (Such sects are often considered cults even by Neopagan standards). Most sects agree that it is unwise to trade future well being for a moment's pleasure. However, some followers of Dionysus believe that they are inspired to relish in earthly delights, ignoring any consequences.

[Jack Skellington]

Moreover, "paganism" is a terrible catch-all phrase devised by Christian Roman Emperors to denigrate all other ways of belief not immediately associated with those in the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

Very true. The literal translation of the word pagan is "country dweller." Pre Christianity the word was used as a slur like red neck is today. But it had no religious connotations. When Christianity came to power the word took on a darker meaning. But I'm not going to get into that here.

Now it's more or less used as an all in compassing term for many totally unrelated non-Judeo-Christian beliefs.

I've never been overly fond of the word as a broad label for people. I'm not a Pagan. I'm a Witch. I don't follow false Gods and I don't live in the country.

[Jes]

[QUOTE=Jack Skellington]Very true. The literal translation of the word pagan is "country dweller." Pre Christianity the word was used as a slur like red neck is today. But it had no religious connotations. When Christianity came to power the word took on a darker meaning. But I'm not going to get into that here.

QUOTE]


this is sort of like Yankee, btw. Jan Kees--a generic 'joe sixpack' farm/hick type.

[SchecterFA]

I'm not sure why the fundies have to wait until Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas to demand compliance with their beliefs ... If it were truly that important to them, I suppose they, like abortion, gun prohibition and activists of other ilks would campaign year 'round.

I guess they have to get themselves excited about their job first.

[Jane]

You're assuming there's some sort of an attention span at work there. Most times they get involved and in the middle of something and.....Oh, look a Bright Shiny Object....Pretty.

[LillyBBBW]

I'm not sure why the fundies have to wait until Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas to demand compliance with their beliefs ... If it were truly that important to them, I suppose they, like abortion, gun prohibition and activists of other ilks would campaign year 'round.

I guess they have to get themselves excited about their job first.

Clearly you haven't been paying attention.

[Jane]

Caption:

"Westboro Baptist Church members Display Their Ignorance"

[SchecterFA]

Fred Phelps is an entirely different breed of idiot in my opinion.

[LillyBBBW]

Caption:

"Westboro Baptist Church members Display Their Ignorance"

At one time I thought these people were a spoof. Some kind of radical joke designed to provoke thought and inner reflection in the religious community but these goons are REAL. O'Reilly is just a tool used to get people talking and writing letters, the oldest trick in the book. In news media there is no such thing as bad publicity but this Phelps guy, he's a truly sick individual.

[Jane]

They protest all military funerals in Oklahoma. The motorcycle clubs have started showing up and drowning them out, and blocking the view from the family.

[Jes]

Jane, why is this, specifically, please? I guess I could just google, but reading too much of that stuff shoots my BP up and I stay angry for the rest of the day. Thanks.

[Jane]

The Rev. Phelps says that America is going to hell because homosexuals are allowed to live among us. He is a homophobic hate monger. He says that God hates America for this reason. He says each soldier that is killed is proof that God hates America for its "tolerance" of homosexuality, and he celebrates each death as proof that "God is Hate."

It is a sick, twisted mindset. I'm abhor intolerance in any form. If I wish to be accepted as a (growing majority) minority member of society, fat girl, and if the prejudice against me is stupid, then isn't all prejudice stupid?????

He does it in Oklahoma, as we are close to his homebase in Kansas.

[Jes]

Ohhhh, I'm sorry--I wasn't making the very obvious and clear connection between homosexuality and military combat deaths. I know, I know, I must be stupid. You'd think I'd know better by now.

thanks, jane, for the response.

merry xmas, crazies!

[LillyBBBW]

He and his band of cronies made their way up here to Massachusetts too to protest outside the funeral of a soldier. Disgusting.

[Boteroesque Babe]

Ohhhh, I'm sorry--I wasn't making the very obvious and clear connection between homosexuality and military combat deaths. I know, I know, I must be stupid.
Several good blows to the head with a claw hammer (either end's fine) should put you in the proper mindset, Jes. Otherwise, it is, indeed, tough to understand.

[Jane]

Ohhhh, I'm sorry--I wasn't making the very obvious and clear connection between homosexuality and military combat deaths. I know, I know, I must be stupid. You'd think I'd know better by now.

thanks, jane, for the response.

merry xmas, crazies!

The connection eludes me as well, as HATE is not my mantra.

[Jes]

knotty scruples like this make me so glad i'm jewish. we get our 8 days to feel like champs, and then we go back to the ranks of liberal guilt and ruining it for everyone else by forcing the uncomfortable townspeople to put up a huge menorah beside the christmas tree even though there's only a handful of us in the region. i love political correctness..it makes everything so much easier for us only marginally talented comedians.

It makes me glad I'm jewish, too!

[fatlane]

You know, fatlane, you're a really good and eloquent writer. I highly admire and respect that.


Thank you very much. Makes at least some of my 1900+ posts worth reading, doesn't it? :D

In the meantime, I need to get the aluminum pole out of storage...

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

He and his band of cronies made their way up here to Massachusetts too to protest outside the funeral of a soldier. Disgusting.
Hell I don't support this war but there is no way I would do anything but cry for the death of another person. He is the reason we had to remove the 10 commandments monument from a corner of the park, until he tried to say that having it on public property allows him to post an antigay monument no one really cared that it was there.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

I'm not a Pagan. I'm a Witch. I don't follow false Gods and I don't live in the country.

Hail Brother! I am a Pagan/Witch. Some call me a Kitchen Witch - but I am more than that. :bow: I too do not follow false Gods.

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

Sorry, Lilly, but I agree with T'Rina.

Most of what the Jerry Falwells, Pat Robertsons, and James Dobsons in this world do is for their own benefit, and is far removed from true Christianity. You don't hear about the good your local churches are doing because it's drown out by all the attention-getters who give Christianity a bad name.

And they will continue to have power as long aspeople give it to them.


Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberston and James Dobson are quacks who sell the snake oil products of racismm, anti-feminism, hatred, and selfishness and brand them as Christianity. They

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

There just as many if not more christian goths then there are Pagan goths (there are Jewish goths and probably most of all Agnostic goths), most pagans are not goth and probably don't understand gothic culture any better then the average person on the street.
For me to say I am Pagan and a Goth is like another person saying they are Christian and a Square Dancer or Jewish and an artist, they are not the same thing but they both describe the person.

Here are a few simple links about Modern Pagan Culture which can tell you about it far better then I can.
PAGAN CULTURE NEVER DIED (http://www.awarenessshop.com/KnowledgeBase/pagancultureneve.html)

Wikipedia on NeoPaganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism)

I don't claim to be an authority on either Pagan culture or gothic culture it is just who I am.

Do you have any pages on gothic culture? How does a person get into it?

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

I'm not sure why the fundies have to wait until Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas to demand compliance with their beliefs ... If it were truly that important to them, I suppose they, like abortion, gun prohibition and activists of other ilks would campaign year 'round.

I guess they have to get themselves excited about their job first.


It's because they are stupid fanatics.

[Tragdor]

Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberston and James Dobson are quacks who sell the snake oil products of racismm, anti-feminism, hatred, and selfishness and brand them as Christianity. They

hey now, don't knock selfishness by comparing it to those freaks ;)

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

The Rev. Phelps says that America is going to hell because homosexuals are allowed to live among us. He is a homophobic hate monger. He says that God hates America for this reason. He says each soldier that is killed is proof that God hates America for its "tolerance" of homosexuality, and he celebrates each death as proof that "God is Hate."

It is a sick, twisted mindset. I'm abhor intolerance in any form. If I wish to be accepted as a (growing majority) minority member of society, fat girl, and if the prejudice against me is stupid, then isn't all prejudice stupid?????

He does it in Oklahoma, as we are close to his homebase in Kansas.

Rev. Fred Phelps needs a new job.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Rev. Fred Phelps needs a new job.
He's had a hard time of it; it's not easy being the world's only living brain donor.

:)

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

Do you have any pages on gothic culture? How does a person get into it?


I started a new thread on this, hope it helps

[exile in thighville]

I don't think it's being made a partisan issue. It IS a partisan issue. (Conrad, please put your hands over your ears for this part.) It appears when the religious right has their candidate in the White House, jolly well mucking up the universe and doling out hand-jobs to big business, they have to invent things to get their panties in a bunch about.

Y'want genuine issues? My favorite web community has been invaded by drunk children, suicide pacts, and grown-ass people who think it's okay to kick a dead body. Every night during winter homeless people die on the street. Sometimes on MY street. My country is fighting a war for reasons not held by a majority of its citizens. And this morning a transit strike has left 7 million of my fellow New Yorkers without a way to work and school. Yeah. Faux issues make me laugh.

When I mean Merry Christmas, I say Merry Christmas. When I mean enjoy whatever, if any, year-end holiday you and your family celebrate, I say Happy Holidays. Sheesh, already.

(Earmuffs again, Conrad.)

Ignorance + lazy journalism = Fox News.

thumbs up. i don't think fox news is lazy journalism though...with o'reilly's wit you'd think he has writers round the clock giving him clever punchlines. and oh, that hannity and colmes. what's that you say? fox news isn't a parody like the daily show? oh dear god.

and yeah, suicide pacts should be limited strictly to my second favorite web community

[exile in thighville]

Do you have any pages on gothic culture? How does a person get into it?

like this. ::applies mascara and hands you a bauhaus cd::

now pout and look dour and give angsty young fellows some foppish role models. fix your crevasse.

[CurvaceousBBWLover]

I started a new thread on this, hope it helps

Thanks a lot.

[T'Rina / MsXXL]

like this. ::applies mascara and hands you a bauhaus cd::

now pout and look dour and give angsty young fellows some foppish role models. fix your crevasse.


Stereotypes get so freakin old so fast, it is so fun to have a big part of your life reduced to one mocking sentence

[exile in thighville]

Stereotypes get so freakin old so fast, it is so fun to have a big part of your life reduced to one mocking sentence

i think goths are beautiful and a fairly relevant fashion statement, but i don't pretend to take it seriously. i'm sorry if that offends you, but i'm also sorry you can't see the humor in my response. but no one has yet defined gothic to me as worth taking seriously as some kind of movement any more than the metal look, the thrift store look, the ghetto look, the emo look, and so forth. the only difference is that goth has all this mythology behind it that i'd say 5% of people who call themselves goth have actually researched and alot of music i'd rather not play.

[exile in thighville]

i think goths are beautiful and a fairly relevant fashion statement, but i don't pretend to take it seriously. i'm sorry if that offends you, but i'm also sorry you can't see the humor in my response. but no one has yet defined gothic to me as worth taking seriously as some kind of movement any more than the metal look, the thrift store look, the ghetto look, the emo look, and so forth. the only difference is that goth has all this mythology behind it that i'd say 5% of people who call themselves goth have actually researched and alot of music i'd rather not play.

wow, it's like months after the fact and i just noticed i actually had the last word on this topic. and it has nothing to do with christmas lol.