Sexual Competition ... or something like that

[Midori]

I'm not sure this is the right forum for this thread so I apologize in advance if it's misplaced here ... perhaps it could be moved to the appropriate forum if I've mis-applied it here.

So ... I've got this -friend- who is also a BBW. She used to be quite thin but is now about 310lbs give or take. She is absolutely stunning regardless of her weight ... however she is an unhappy fat person. She constantly talks about wanting to lose weight and how she can easily do it if she tries. We talk alot and I've talked more and more to her since joining the Dims community about acceptance and loving yourself now. She is miserable with herself now and can't see her beauty ... only what WAS ... not what IS.

While I try to tell her how beautiful she is now ... it's very difficult because of -sexual- competativeness, if that even makes sense. We are thrown together frequently for social activities and she is constantly trying to outdo me. She and I personality wise are similar in many ways and you know with girlfriends sometimes that clicks and sometimes it doesn't. She is tall and heavier than I am ... but since I am short, she actually wears smaller sized clothing than I do. She BRINGS this up in social conversations all the time ... it's like her way of compensating or trying to point out that she is more desireable between the two of us. As I have taken time to worry more about my appearance, yet grow more confident in NON-fat embracing society ... she seems to be getting worse in the way she acts when we are mixed company.

She does things to constantly seek to have the attention of any guy that I'm talking to and it's driving me nuts. She takes daily pictures of herself to post on her myspace ... always at the very MOST attractive and thin angles while posting pics she has snapped of me in the LEAST flattering light. Now I know some of this is my issue because I am still floundering some with the whole fat is beautiful thing ... but it's getting on my nerves that her pictures look nothing like her in reality because she takes 400 just to get that perfect ... -I've got a model thin face- picture with NO body shots ... yet she posts the grossest angles of me ... fully body shots and in the strangest situations ... all candid of me of course and posed of her.

A lot of our friends socialize on myspace and communicate during the week via myspace until we hook up on the weekends ... so new people are constantly looking at those pics ... knowing they are going to be meeting up with us. I am really struggling with my acceptance while at the same time resenting that I know she is engaging in this -campaign- to flatter herself at what she thinks is my expense. Does this even make sense? Does anyone else have friends that you feel like try to diminish you or compete with you ... even when you don't feel the same desire ... just to make themselves feel better?

Yeah we eventually meet these people in person and they see what she really looks like ... but for some reason I feel unreasonably like I have to -make-up- for an already negative first impression thanks to her photos of me. I wouldn't post an unflattering picture of her anywhere ... I think she is beautiful yet she doesn't see it. I don't feel competative with her in a room full of people ... I am me ... so I get tired of the constant barbs and underlying tension of HER need for affirmation.

Maybe I just sound like I'm jealous. I don't really think I am ... except that she takes a hella picture and I do wish I did. Though in honesty ... I am not as beautiful as her ... it's not like it's the first time I've not been the most attractive woman in the crowd. In fact ... because I haven't had many heavy friends ... society wise ... I've probably been the LEAST attractive in the crowd. Maybe I'm just thrown because all my skinny friends already DON'T feel that I'm competition so they don't work so hard to compete ... this one -friend- seems dead set on it. I'm not.

Bleh ... anyone else have large friends who seem to want to point out that you are fatter or less attractive than them because they are miserable with their weight? We were playing cards recently and after a few drinks she demanded that I pull out my breasts and display them with hers because she "has been told she has amazing breasts" ... but didn't want to expose alone. Of course ... everyone in the room demanded that we pony up and gave me such a hard time about showing mine as well ... it was crappy. She DOES have beautiful breasts ... perfect nipples ... and I ... with all my work on self acceptance ... just felt like crapy. My breasts are not stunning of course! ~Laughs~

Sorry for rambling ... anyone else out there in a similar boat?

♪midori

[sunnie1653]

Wow, I sat here and thought about my reply long and hard before I started typing it, and your situation is SO similar to one I used to be in, its not EVEN funny. I had a friend that would put me down, walk up to people in bars and go "who do you think is older/prettier/weighs less/etc.." and go around telling people exactly how much I weighed, and this was a couple of years ago, when I was very uncomfortable in my own body. I finally told her what I thought of her and haven't spoken to her in a year.

I personally don't think this has anything to do with her "beauty" vs. yours, her pictures vs yours, or her size vs yours. Clothing size is just that.. clothing size. Beauty, is outward as well as inward, and pictures are mere glimpses into someone's soul.

If she's talking about you like that in front of groups of people, and YOU see her doing it, then chances are everyone else sees it too, and she's doing nothing but making a gigantic fool of herself. Most people would see her as being petty, quite rude, and honestly downright tacky. To put down someone else in that light just to make yourself feel better not only is a glaring example of what a jerk a person can be, but can be a serious indication of how low her self-esteem really is.

The part about the drinks and the cards and the flashing of the breasts, that was just ... no. I don't have a word for it. She ought to be ashamed of herself. Its one thing to want to brag, but if you want to show your boobs off to the world, do it. Don't try to one-up someone on everything.

You constantly remind her that she's beautiful, even though she says she's not. What I would do? Stop telling her. She's fishing for it. She knows she's pretty and thinks she's emphasizing it by taking odd-angle pictures of herself, blatantly putting herself on a pedestal, and shoving you down. Don't let her do it. Because, sweetie.. I don't mean this in an offensive way whatsoever, but you are. You're enabling her to do this to you. You've turned into the pedestal she's put herself on. And you belong on a pedestal all your own.

You're a beautiful woman, Midori, inside and out. And your "friend" may think she's pretty on the outside, but eventually that ugliness inside of her is going to shine through and everyone else in the world will catch on and see what a bitch she's being.


*big hugs*
Melina

[Midori]

*hugshugshugs* Thanks for your reply Melina ... I really appreciate your thoughts and it's great to know I'm not alone. I think the thing that really frustrates me is that I tell her she is beautiful when she starts talking about dieting and needing to lose weight and having a crying jag which is every couple of days. I try to encourage her -where she is- because of my own newly emerging acceptance and love of myself. It's miserable to be around someone who just is consumed with the fact that they aren't beautiful UNTIL they lose the weight but at the same time just whine all the time and aren't even working to change it.

I suppose in the end ... she's rather miserable for me to be around most of the time. ~soft laugh~ Which really sucks. I am not a comparing myself to other people sort of person but with her ... it's like a constant one up's man thing even when she is in the middle of crying about her weight because she reminds me then of how gorgeous she is skinny too. It's a no winner for me ... obviously ... but as much as I try to distance myself ... she just won't leave me alone. She seeks me out when she is depressed because I always try to be the uplifting one ... though lately I'm about at the end of my rope.

A few days ago she walked into the room and tried to dirty dance with a guy I was speaking to ... and I just refuse to compete with that crap ... I looked at him and shrugged, laughed, and wandered off. Crazy thing is ... I had this feeling the guy I was talking to wanted me to compete with her ... wanted me to try to win his attention ... maybe I just coped out. Who knows?

♪midori

[nixonshine]

Midori,

sunnie is right that you deserve your own pedastal. I must admit I am still grappling with all of the appreciate and love your own body thing, but I'm trying. I see other posters and their pictures are beautiful, and I wish I had the courage and the confidence to feel the same way about myself. Anyways, for most of my 20's, I had two very good friends (at the time really my only friends that I hung out with) who were also heavy. Both of them were taller than me and carried their weight differently. One of them had the most beautiful long legs, and the other, my best friend, was the most beautiful woman. She personified beauty in so many ways. Yet being with her when men were involved was hell. She feigned stupidity, she went along with everything, and even changed her 'personality' to fit the specs of men in her company. She talked alot of crap about being great in bed (so classy) and even told one mutual male friend of ours that I was a "prude" (NOT TRUE! but I don't love honking my own horn or telling sex adventure stories to just anyone any time!). The story about your friend and her breasts sounds EXACTLY like this woman. in fact, I wonder if it WAS in fact the same woman. We would go with a bunch of friends to hang out and swim and she would just take off all of her clothes and jump in the water all the time feigning that she felt embarrassed and try to recruit me to do the same so she didnt seem so brazen. In short, she drove me to the edge of sanity and I finally 'broke up with her' in a tasteless and horrible way which I now regret. Truth be told, ultimately I miss her. As many awful things as she was capable of, we usually had a good time and I felt like I could confide in her. I miss that kind of a girlfriend. I havent had one since, really. Of course I have a family now and so does she so maybe I just lack the time and resources to meet anyone new or keep up the friendship. Either way, I don't know now if it is lonliness that makes me miss her or true and sincere appreciation of our former friendship. And, like you, I struggled with wondering if I was actually jealous, and I know in some ways I was because she WAS that much more beautiful and confident, and she did always get the attention.
Now for the ugly truth about me... the other friend that I mentioned...the beautifully leggy friend. Well, in many ways I treated her like my friend treated me. I always one upped her and flirted with her boyfriends and was very vicious in this way. She was a terribly good friend and was there for me in any way. Looking back, I can't believe how awful I treated her. I think I really just felt bad about myself and used her to make myself seem better. Needless to say, she smartened up and moved seven states away. For the better, she is doing so well. I have apologized, wised up, and I vow never to act so petty again. So, maybe your friend needs (even if she does not deserve) a second chance, and you can explain to her how you feel, spend some time apart and she will change. If not, dont waste your time for too long. She may never be capable of changing or recognizing her hurtful behavior.
No matter what, you DO deserve better, and you are not crazy for feeling this way. *HUGS*

Kristie

[Tad]

While I try to tell her how beautiful she is now ... it's very difficult because of -sexual- competativeness, if that even makes sense. We are thrown together frequently for social activities and she is constantly trying to outdo me. She and I personality wise are similar in many ways and you know with girlfriends sometimes that clicks and sometimes it doesn't. She is tall and heavier than I am ... but since I am short, she actually wears smaller sized clothing than I do. She BRINGS this up in social conversations all the time ... it's like her way of compensating or trying to point out that she is more desireable between the two of us. As I have taken time to worry more about my appearance, yet grow more confident in NON-fat embracing society ... she seems to be getting worse in the way she acts when we are mixed company.

She does things to constantly seek to have the attention of any guy that I'm talking to and it's driving me nuts. She takes daily pictures of herself to post on her myspace ... always at the very MOST attractive and thin angles while posting pics she has snapped of me in the LEAST flattering light. Now I know some of this is my issue because I am still floundering some with the whole fat is beautiful thing ... but it's getting on my nerves that her pictures look nothing like her in reality because she takes 400 just to get that perfect ... -I've got a model thin face- picture with NO body shots ... yet she posts the grossest angles of me ... fully body shots and in the strangest situations ... all candid of me of course and posed of her.

..........
Sorry for rambling ... anyone else out there in a similar boat?


It is not the exact same situation, but I think the dynamic is somewhat similar. In grade seven my wife made a new friend. All through middle school and high school they were best friends. They walked to school together, shared a lot of classes, hung out, and so on. My wife should still have this friend, reminiscing about “do you remember that time in grade eleven biology when…”

They lived in the old part of a town with heavy german background, where classic Teutonic looks were still highly prized. My wife is moderately tall for a woman, at a shade over 5’6”, but her friend was an inch or two taller. My wife has nearly black hair, her friend was not quite blonde, but sufficiently pale brown that she could claim it after enough sunlight (or a bit of bleach). My wife was still pretty thin back then, but is fundamentally wide hipped, and at the time was fairly small busted. Her friend was no thinner, but was more evenly proportioned and a bit bustier. My wife had never really noticed any competition with her friend all throughout their school days.

They both went to the university in their home town, both in arts, but while my wife was living at home, a forty-five minute walk from campus, her friend went into one of the residences, and maybe gloated a bit about how she’d be at all the parties, and would try to invite my wife to some of them. Maybe that should have been the warning sign, I don’t know. While her friend was focusing on finding parties, my wife decided to join the debating club—she’d enjoyed debating in high school. I happened to also have just joined the debating club, although I was in my final year at university. As novice debaters we were together a fair bit, and despite that I’d mentally decided not to date any frosh, we ended up dating.

That was when things began to get weird. Her friend began to announce boyfriends, and how great they were, and all the things that they were doing—but none of these relationships ever seemed to have that much to them or to really last. My wife didn’t see her friend so much, as they were not living close to each other, and of course she was spending more time with me. She also started gaining some weight, which her friend occasionally made mock sympathetic comments. Things went on, a little strained, but supposedly fine. Then after a few years we got engaged. Naturally my wife asked her best friend to be her maid of honor. Her friend accepted. And then did absolutely nothing. My mother in law ended up organizing my wife’s only bridal shower. Her friend came to get measured for her dress, but when it was done had my mother-in-law lower the bustline and raise the slit up the side. My wife finally hauled her friend out for drinks not too long before our wedding, to sort of clear the air—as by this time she was getting annoyed and didn’t understand what the problem was. Her friend told her point blank “I was supposed to get married first. I would have made sure to find someone for you too.” Apparently in her mind she’d always been the more desirable one, the one who was supposed to go to university and have the upper year guy fall for her, to get married as soon as school was finished. She’d be the one to look out for her shorter, darker, wider but less busty, friend. None of it worked out that way, and this friend just couldn’t accept it.

She was at our wedding as maid of honour, where she managed to make a bit of a spectacle of herself getting her latest boyfriend to dry and dip her dramatically for a kiss, with the result of him dropping her, and the slit on her dress tearing upwards several more inches. But the friendship was gone by then, and they’ve not been in contact for years.

The situation is different than what you are going through, but I think the basics are the same. Your friend is feeling insecure and jealous. She has probably always seen herself as more attractive than you, and more desirable, but at the same time been very insecure—her superiority to you has been a crutch to hold up her self-esteem, or something like that. As she’s gotten fatter, this has probably become even more important to her—at least I’m thinner than Midori! Now, as you get more accepting, seem more confident, maybe dress more confidently, carry yourself with your head up more, all of that is threatened. You aren’t acting like you know you are second fiddle. The way you are going on, some guy might get attracted to you, to prefer you over her. If that happened, then her world is at an end, the one thing she could rely on to make herself feel better would be gone.

OK, maybe I’m putting it a little too dramatically here, but I suspect that is basically the dynamic. The more you are happy and confident, the more she feels threatened, so the more she tries to push you back. This can play out in all sorts of ways. It might be conscious, it might be unconscious, but it sounds like you are seeing it over and over and over again. The thing is that to confront her on any of the details of it will not help at all. “But dear, if you didn’t want to show your boobs, you didn’t have to!” or “I’m sorry you don’t like how you look in pictures. If you tell me which ones you don’t like I’ll take them down” (and then post on her page why she took those ones down, and how poor Midori is so worried about how she looks in pictures, everyone should say nice things to her next time they see a picture of her).

This is not exactly a purely language exchange, but some of the same principles are at play as when someone says something like “You have such a pretty face” or “If you tried I’m sure you could look so good in a dress.” Or other false compliments like that, where what is unstated is a strong insult, hidden under a compliment.

I’ve recommended these books on here many times before, but you are new, so I’ll do it again. “The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense” (and follow on series) by Suzette Haden-Elgin. I think it was specifically “The Final Word on Verbal Self-Defense” that may have talked about such veiled attacks, but I’m not certain. There is a good chance that your local library has these, they are very readable, and even if you don’t follow everything they say, they do have a lot of very good points to consider.

This is getting long, so I’ll keep my last point brief. Is she actually a friend, or someone you just hang out with? That is, are there also really good times, that are good because you are with her? Does she do you real kindnesses, do you feel you can count on her when the chips are down? If so, then maybe this is worth fighting, getting into what she is doing and how it makes you feel, and see if you can salvage a better friendship out of it. But if she is not, if things with her are mostly along these more toxic lines, I’d say start cutting her out. Be with her less, support her plans less, don’t be her wing-woman, don’t agree to her silly plans. I’m not saying have a big fight or lose the whole group of friends, but distance yourself from her. You are the one that knows her, you have to decide if you see a worthwhile friendship there—but what you have described of her does not make for the basis of a real friendship.

Regards;

-Ed

[lysh]

sounds like a tough spot Midori - sorry to hear you're having this issue.

a very good friend of mine is also a BBW like myself ... luckily I dont feel that same way you do though. my friend and i do compare ourselves (her more verbally than me) to each other but I dont think it interferes with our relationship. it sounds like your situation might be interferring with your friendship. i hope that are able to talk to her about it and get it sorted out b/c you are both beautiful in your own ways and you and she need to recognize it's not a competition. i give you props for recognizing how much it bothers you and seeking advise! :)

best of luck!

[Risible]

Yeah, I did have a friend like that, Midori - in junior high! Really, your friend's behavior is just immature.

As an adult, my closest girlfriends have always been supportive. I'm a married woman now, but when I was single, I never had to compete with my closest girlfriends over a man; I never had a man stolen from me, either, by them.

You know what they say, you can pick your friends, but you can't pick family. You didn't speak much, if any, of the positives of your friendship, but there has to be something irresistible about it that makes you want to continue "picking" her, or keeps you invested in your friendship. If not, maybe you should consider distancing yourself.

[willamena31]

I can't say that I've ever had anyone do to me what this woman has done to you Midori. It could just be because I've never had many friends that were bigger or the same size as me. Most of my friends were skinny, or at least compaird to me they were.

I do know that I felt I had to compete with them and sometimes I would get pretty mean about it. I remember this one time, with my best friend. She was so skinny and pretty and everyone wanted her. My bf at the time even admitted to me that at one point before he started liking me that he had liked her, which made me want to compete with her even more.

Anyway, there was this one guy. He was my closest friend next to her,and he was absolutely in love with her. She was seeing someone else though and had no interest in him. (or so she said) but the more we hung out with him the more I saw that she was starting to like him, but she refused to break up with her current bf. Now, to make matters worse, I had been infatuated with this guy since the day I met him, at first it didn't bother me that he liked her and not me cuz in the back of my mind I was thinking she doesn't want him anyway, so no biggie, but when she started liking him too, that's when my competative side kicked in.

Everytime he and I were alone, I would flirt with him mercilessly. I had something to prove in my book. I wanted to prove that even though I was fat I could still get this guy. (That was always my motivation behind any of my conquests towards guys that liked my friends.) So to make this long story a little shorter, he and I ended up sleeping together. It was the first time that this had actually worked for me. Every other time that I had tried doing this to a friend the guy ended up saying they thought I was a great girl, but were only interested in being my friend, etc. So I was on cloud nine for some time... that is.. until my best friend found out what had happend between the guy and I. It pretty much ruined our friendship, plus the friendship I had with the guy. That's when I woke up and realized that it really wasn't worth it. My friends never thought of me a competition, I guess that's always why I had to try and prove them wrong, but when I finally did, I felt terrible.

I don't know if this makes any sense, and I know it really doesn't pertain to your story, but I don't know, I just felt the need to share that with everyone.

Hugggsss!!
Billie Jo

[JustMe]

*sigh* Social bull rears it's ugly head again. A beast I loathe and kill at every turn. Take this lightly, for it has hard truths.

What you are doing to try and help her with her self esteem issues will only garner you more disrespect directly or indirectly from her. People like this treat each bit of help, confident compliment, and reassurance as a victory point to their ego. It comes across as weak, or the last weak thing you still have going towards them. Thus, making them feel better for your other showings of confidence (and good for you!). Even though you are just trying to help, be friendly, or what not.

A different take to handle this, will show you what the person truely is like (that is often hidden from you). That's the direct approach. The problem with taking that way and telling the person flat out what you think and what has been going on is their reaction. I know the A-Typical bad person reaction all to well (as it applies to many situations). Infact I now call them steps.

1) Defensive:
The person is going to outright deny what you are saying. This is all fine, and should be expected from almost anyone. But watch carefully as they don't actually show being hurt.

2) Questioning:
The person then proceedes to question, YOU. Getting you to explain how you found out. How you came about this. What were they are actually doing. If you watch yourself or reflect back afterwards, you will find you were over-explaining yourself. They are simply gainging information on the extent of your information for the next step.

3) Reversal:
They now use what they know of you to start reversing the role. This can be aggervating because at times they will try to include other people in at this point.

4) Victim:
They now play the victim. If you're been nice enough this far, you have great tolereance and this point gets extreemely frustrating... less confident people will even be questioning themselves at this point! Even though you never once attacked the person, here you are now defending yourself. When you were the true victim (and thus why you approached them to begin with).

Yay... those happen a lot. It's part of many social BS systems. Even once you know of this interaction, you can still find yourself getting caught up in it.

So what can you do? Well. The solution is walk up as nice as you can. Approach with caution, be polite, but be direct as you can. You obviously have a problem with this person, and them to you. So go do it, sooner or later. Watch their reaction. If they begin to question you, do not give them extra information to cover themselves up or play upon you. If you don't answer their reflectiveness and do get into problems, walk away. Just tell them that how things are, or that's how you see things, and put a finality to it. A good person will understand and respect your view. In the end you may just have to leave it at that and see if they eventually come back to you. Let them go, to find out who they really were all this time... if it was a longer relationship.

Sum Up: Work on the cracks directly and soon. Jump ship early. No sense being in bad relationships. No matter how good it looked for weeks, months, or years thing may change or new information may be revealed.

[DirtyLittleDiva]

I think it all comes down to a few simple reasons:

1. She's uncomfortable with herself so she has to make someone else feel inferior to her. She will cut you down to make herself feel better.

2. She is jealous. For some reason she is slightly jealous. She may not even realize it herself or maybe she does and she won't admit it. When a woman in not confident in herself and sees another woman who is, most of the time...there is jealousy.

These two issues feed into her posting non-flattering pics, making insane comments and stuff like that. If she were comfortable in her own skin, I'm sure you wouldn't have these issues. Maybe you should try talking to her about it. If you guys are close, you should be able to work it out. Just be careful how you approach it with her. People with low self esteem tend to take things way out of hand and run with it when confronted with difficult situations. I've experienced it with people before and it's not fun.

So good luck! I'm sure she doesn't do in consciously if she's a true friend. But having jealousy and low self esteem can really damage a person's outlook and they may not even notice how bad they are being until it's talked about.

[Surlysomething]

"So ... I've got this -friend- who is also a BBW"



she is NOT your friend