Dimensions After Dark

[Admiral_Snackbar]

Bases on this post (http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=581928&postcount=211) in the turn-offs thread, I'm setting this up for those of us wanting to discuss the TMI issues without worrying about the TMI.

I'm creatively tapped out for the afternoon, so you folks feel free to go crazy. And I don't mean in a gone wild, sapphic kissing and drunken videotaping sort of way, either.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Can I lift my shirt and show my boobies??

[Admiral_Snackbar]

Can I lift my shirt and show my boobies??

The Hef says no.

[TraciJo67]

FUCK the Hef. I wanna see the boobies.

Can I say FUCK in Dims after dark?

[mossystate]

NO boobies!!!!

ack...

NO..* gets on floor and thrashes around *

Ummmm, I say fuck other places on Dims...is this going to be any different?..I think NOT!!!

Oh, and no more using the likeness of that breathing herpes sore!

[ChubbyBlackSista]

Dimensions After Dark
Everything happens really freaky After Dark when everyone is sleep. On Tv at night when I'm up at 12 am I see people saying call all these naughty girls showing their breast and everything else

[TraciJo67]

NO boobies!!!!

ack...

NO..* gets on floor and thrashes around *

Ummmm, I say fuck other places on Dims...is this going to be any different?..I think NOT!!!

Oh, and no more using the likeness of that breathing herpes sore!

Sigh. I guess I'll just continue getting my jollies at www.ratemypustules.com.

Freakin' spoil sport.

[mossystate]

Sigh. I guess I'll just continue getting my jollies at www.ratemypustules.com.

Freakin' spoil sport.


Wow...your husband is a lucky man.

[TraciJo67]

Damn it, we're supposed to be discussing sex stuff. Risque sex stuff, even.

I'll be 40 on Saturday. 40!! Me!!! And here's my Dims After Dark confession: People look at me and see 'librarian' or 'lab technician' or even (gasp) 'social worker' with my frosted blonde hair and specs and predilection for wearing sweater sets and sensible shoes, but I'm really an incredibly horny dirty old thang .... secretly lusting after everything (EVERYTHING) under 25, above 18.

Oh, who the hell am I kidding. Even in my fantasies, I'm a freaking librarian with frosted blonde hair and specs and ... well, you get the message.

Dear Mossy, Help! I'm having a midlife crisis! How do I get my mojo?

Love, Desperate Hausfrau

P.S. You can call me Grasshopper ... I'll like that

[Sandie_Zitkus]

HA! Your loss! They're spectacular.:bow:


NO boobies!!!!

ack...

NO..* gets on floor and thrashes around *

Ummmm, I say fuck other places on Dims...is this going to be any different?..I think NOT!!!

Oh, and no more using the likeness of that breathing herpes sore!

[Sandie_Zitkus]

8 inch platform black stilettos - short leather skirt - black leather bra - fishnet stockings - and a long wig (any color) - is that doable????


Damn it, we're supposed to be discussing sex stuff. Risque sex stuff, even.

I'll be 40 on Saturday. 40!! Me!!! And here's my Dims After Dark confession: People look at me and see 'librarian' or 'lab technician' or even (gasp) 'social worker' with my frosted blonde hair and specs and predilection for wearing sweater sets and sensible shoes, but I'm really an incredibly horny dirty old thang .... secretly lusting after everything (EVERYTHING) under 25, above 18.

Oh, who the hell am I kidding. Even in my fantasies, I'm a freaking librarian with frosted blonde hair and specs and ... well, you get the message.

Dear Mossy, Help! I'm having a midlife crisis! How do I get my mojo?

Love, Desperate Hausfrau

P.S. You can call me Grasshopper ... I'll like that

[TraciJo67]

8 inch platform black stilettos - short leather skirt - black leather bra - fishnet stockings - and a long wig (any color) - is that doable????

Sandie, I mean this in the best possible way, ok?

Just shut up and show me your boobs.

And not later.

:D

[mossystate]

Damn it, we're supposed to be discussing sex stuff. Risque sex stuff, even.

I'll be 40 on Saturday. 40!! Me!!! And here's my Dims After Dark confession: People look at me and see 'librarian' or 'lab technician' or even (gasp) 'social worker' with my frosted blonde hair and specs and predilection for wearing sweater sets and sensible shoes, but I'm really an incredibly horny dirty old thang .... secretly lusting after everything (EVERYTHING) under 25, above 18.

Oh, who the hell am I kidding. Even in my fantasies, I'm a freaking librarian with frosted blonde hair and specs and ... well, you get the message.

Dear Mossy, Help! I'm having a midlife crisis! How do I get my mojo?

Love, Desperate Hausfrau

P.S. You can call me Grasshopper ... I'll like that


Sorry, cannot help you right now..am finishing my crotchless bumblebee costume for Halloween..ran out of stitchwitch....fuck....

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Oh yeah like that's gonna happen! Mossy said no - so it's no.


Sandie, I mean this in the best possible way, ok?

Just shut up and show me your boobs.

And not later.

:D

[TraciJo67]

Oh yeah like that's gonna happen! Mossy said no - so it's no.

Since when have you ever listened to Mossy? She's not the boss of you!

[Seth Warren]

Can I lift my shirt and show my boobies??

Only if we can't see your nipples. :D

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Since when have you ever listened to Mossy? She's not the boss of you!


Exactly how dumb do you think I am??????????????:blink:

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Only if we can't see your nipples. :D

If you can't see my nipples there really is no point. That's like a Sundae without a cherry. Sheesh:confused:

[Canonista]

Can I lift my shirt and show my boobies??


Don't met me or the Hef stop you.:wubu:

[TraciJo67]

Don't met me or the Hef stop you.:wubu:

Well see, it's not just me who wants to see your boobs, Sandie. There's a line forming.

Do it as a public service. Do it for the children.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

This always happens. I mention my boobies and everyone wants to see them. It's the cross I bear for being so sexy and beautiful.:)

Now everyone stop clamoring for my boobs - everyone back away. I'm sure you all have perfectly fine boobs. Mine are just spectacular and I don't want to make anyone feel bad because they can't match my boobies beauty.

Move along...............:D

[Seth Warren]

I'm sure you all have perfectly fine boobs.


No I don't... :huh:

[mossystate]

I hope AS comes back..soon..and gets his thread back on track.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

OK OK here ya go:

http://www.galapagos.org/photos/Images/boobies.hansliu.jpg

[mossystate]

I see I have a few threads to visit ...and post wacky pics...AS, come back to the five and dime...

[Sandie_Zitkus]

I can post pics of my pussy or my ass if you prefer. My boobies aren't for everybody - I know I know that's not what you heard!!

I got a million of 'em folks.

[TraciJo67]

CLEAN UP IN AISLE 6!

Snackbar, get your lazy ass in here, pronto, and bring a mop.

[mossystate]

Might want to bring a hazmat suit.

[Green Eyed Fairy]

Sorry, cannot help you right now..am finishing my crotchless bumblebee costume for Halloween..ran out of stitchwitch....fuck....


Bumblebee? Does this mean I get to be your flower?


Wanna see my accordian stamen? :wubu:

[Green Eyed Fairy]

This always happens. I mention my boobies and everyone wants to see them. It's the cross I bear for being so sexy and beautiful.:)

Now everyone stop clamoring for my boobs - everyone back away. I'm sure you all have perfectly fine boobs. Mine are just spectacular and I don't want to make anyone feel bad because they can't match my boobies beauty.

Move along...............:D


Personally, I'm still looking for the elusive penis pics on this board :doh:

[TraciJo67]

Personally, I'm still looking for the elusive penis pics on this board :doh:

Somewhere in Dims land, quietly floating around in cyberspace, there is a pic of a butt nekkid Wayne Zitkus. Maybe, if we ask him nicely, he'll repost it here.

[Canonista]

OK OK here ya go:

http://www.galapagos.org/photos/Images/boobies.hansliu.jpg

<----Can type one handed...:p

[Green Eyed Fairy]

Is it corny of me to point out how the "after dark" thread didn't fail to talk about the birds and the bees?



Yes, you may boo me now - I couldn't resist :doh:


and of course I'm stupid, I'm wearing a plant on my head....duh :p

[Seth Warren]

Is it corny of me to point out how the "after dark" thread didn't fail to talk about the birds and the bees?



Yes, you may boo me now - I couldn't resist :doh:


and of course I'm stupid, I'm wearing a plant on my head....duh :p


It is unfair that birds get a photo and bees don't. Allow me to rectify this:

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x155/illusionofjoy/beewoman_smaller.jpg

Obligatory BeeBeeW. :D

[Admiral_Snackbar]

CLEAN UP IN AISLE 6!

Snackbar, get your lazy ass in here, pronto, and bring a mop.

I spend all night bathing children and putting them to bed, I go to feed my four gerbils of the Apocalypse, and this is what I come back to?

Did anyone here ever get to see old footage of Hugh Hefner's Playboy After Dark? Basically a show where Hugh sort of broke some molds, having some rock and roll music, lots of jazz, and many comedians and entertainers (Bill Cosby, Dick Gregory, Lenny Bruce). The goal was a laid back atmosphere with beautiful (albeit clothed) Playmates, and tried to push the envelope in his show much as he did in his magazine.

Not that I see this thread like that (I personally cannot stand Playboy since everything in the issue gets run through the Big Fake Breasted Blonde Airbrush Machine), but it is nice to cut loose in a thread where adults can just talk like adults. So often it's tough to avoid offending anyone, and in the end it's all just words. I don't care if you call the penis a cock, dick, schlong or if you call your vagina a pussy or a coont, it's all just a term.

I guess how I see it is that adults should be able to talk like adults in an uncensored, politically neutral atmosphere. It's rough when you get to a thread about sexual turn-offs (http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30457) and have to censor what you're talking about, when the topic is SEX.

Then again, it's not like a single thread is going to reinvent anything. I just did this for Monique. :)

So, a short topic idea: For either gender, what in your opinion is the single most annoying/offensive/redundant or non-erotic aspect to porno films and why?

[bigplaidpants]

So, a short topic idea: For either gender, what in your opinion is the single most annoying/offensive/redundant or non-erotic aspect to porno films and why?

Saw a garage flick with a plot once. Ruined the whole thing.

[fasteddie1]

"(I personally cannot stand Playboy since everything in the issue gets run through the Big Fake Breasted Blonde Airbrush Machine)"

It's a pretty good magazine, journalistically speaking. But as a porn mag, it sucks. Too many Sensitive Depictions Of Female Sensuality.

As I have said before, I prefer lurid depictions of completely shameless BBW exhibitionists spreading their legs, in full knowlege that a bunch of pervos like me are looking at them and masturbating.

[Canonista]

I go to feed my four gerbils of the Apocalypse...

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tina]

Might as well discuss here, as I think I inadvertently ruined the other one. :blink:
So, a short topic idea: For either gender, what in your opinion is the single most annoying/offensive/redundant or non-erotic aspect to porno films and why?
You don't want to know, Admiral. It would turn into a feminist rant. :p

Love the blue-footed boobies, though. :D

[Admiral_Snackbar]

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Serious as a heart attack. To wit:

Death
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/mcris1970/Gerbils/93f6a620.jpg

Famine
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/mcris1970/Gerbils/8ce24db7.jpg

Victory
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/mcris1970/Gerbils/96ea5826.jpg

War
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/mcris1970/Gerbils/3ed67c17.jpg

[Admiral_Snackbar]

Might as well discuss here, as I think I inadvertently ruined the other one. :blink:

You don't want to know, Admiral. It would turn into a feminist rant. :p Soo, basically the most offensive thing about porn is porn itself. Got it :)

You can rant all you want. That's why we're here. You mention something and we respond, then you respond in kind and we all kiss and make up in the end and agree to disagree.

[Rojodi]

Personally, I'm still looking for the elusive penis pics on this board :doh:

Let me start one.......:p

[Tina]

Soo, basically the most offensive thing about porn is porn itself. Got it :)

You can rant all you want. That's why we're here. You mention something and we respond, then you respond in kind and we all kiss and make up in the end and agree to disagree.

More what it does to people, Admiral. I won't go into it all, but if there is one thing I will discuss that is, IMO, harmful, it's what it does to peoples' minds.

First, you have the attempted brainwashing of boys and men. They are told what they should find attractive and what they should expect from women. Women should be thin and slutty, and should make these and those moves and those sounds. Women really mean "yes" when they say "no," and are willing to fuck just about anyone. Men shouldn't have to really try very hard to please their partner, and women can come from penetration alone. This, to me, is basically the take-home message of porn. Some guys are immune to these repeated messages, to one degree or another; some are not. And that's just mainstream porn.

When I was publishing my feminist mag, one of our readers wrote in about how the guys at her work had all kinds of porn on their computers, and how the women there were treated. She said she felt that because of a fixation on porn, the men devalued women and looked at them as only sex objects, and not as capable co-workers. She gave many examples to back up her claims. She ended up writing an article for us based upon the letter.

Women, however, are given the message that they must be thin to be attractive. Again, mainstream porn, but that message is flipped on its head regarding fat porn, of course. Women are shown that we should dress a certain way, move a certain way, sound a certain way, and love to drink semen as if it were a milkshake.

I think that porn often follows stereotypical 'thinking' and sends a message about what sex should be. It is such a lucrative industry that they really don't care what the message is, as long as money is being made. And that's not even going into the things that are done to women in order to make the porn (kidnapping, drugging, rape, other types of violence). I see an actual negative value in hardcore porn, personally.

[fasteddie1]

"When I was publishing my feminist mag, one of our readers wrote in about how the guys at her work had all kinds of porn on their computers, and how the women there were treated. She said she felt that because of a fixation on porn, the men devalued women and looked at them as only sex objects, and not as capable co-workers. She gave many examples to back up her claims. She ended up writing an article for us based upon the letter."

IMHO, she should have complained, anonymously, to the management. People should not, as a general rule, view things like that in the workplace; certainly not where people can see. That she was aware of it demonstrates that it was displayed openly, that's sexual harassment. I mean, real sexual harassment, not something popped up by some whiner to get something for free.

As for the feminist angle, there are feminists, and there are feminists. Susie Bright and Naomi Wolf come to mind. Not to "rant" myself, but there are lots of offensive generalizations about men in the writings of MacKinnon, Dworkin, Susan Griffin, and other self described feminists. Unlike porn, which is private enterprise, numerous persons who share their ideas are tenured professors, with the power to influence policy and legislation.

Personally, it is sometimes easier, and simpler to turn to pornography than to enter the complex minefield of relationships, in which one makes oneself just as vulnerable as can be to having ones property lifted, reputation besmirched, to even be deprived of liberty, because somebody pointed a finger out of girlish pique, and some authority figure believed them.

[Tina]

"When I was publishing my feminist mag, one of our readers wrote in about how the guys at her work had all kinds of porn on their computers, and how the women there were treated. She said she felt that because of a fixation on porn, the men devalued women and looked at them as only sex objects, and not as capable co-workers. She gave many examples to back up her claims. She ended up writing an article for us based upon the letter."

IMHO, she should have complained, anonymously, to the management. People should not, as a general rule, view things like that in the workplace; certainly not where people can see. That she was aware of it demonstrates that it was displayed openly, that's sexual harassment. I mean, real sexual harassment, not something popped up by some whiner to get something for free.
What makes you think she didn't? She did and nothing was done about it. She ended up leaving.
As for the feminist angle, there are feminists, and there are feminists. Susie Bright and Naomi Wolf come to mind. Not to "rant" myself, but there are lots of offensive generalizations about men in the writings of MacKinnon, Dworkin, Susan Griffin, and other self described feminists. Unlike porn, which is private enterprise, numerous persons who share their ideas are tenured professors, with the power to influence policy and legislation.
Porn is far more ubiquitous in society than Dworkin's books, or anything from any feminists that might come down the pike. This society has become a porn society, starting in the 1980s. It has become a stripper culture, where thongs (that used to be a word for shoes...) became popular, as did shaving and waxing nether regions (which used to be reserved pretty much for prostitutes only back in the day), and male infidelity at strip clubs became common. There have almost always been strip clubs, but never so many, and there also never were lap dances. Do you know that there are actually thongs for little girls? A friend of mine was telling me about them several years ago; she saw them in a department store. Porn movie directors started directing music videos, porn actresses became more mainstream. You can even get porn ringtones for your cell phone. Frankly, I do not think that our society has benefited from the pornification of daily life.
Personally, it is sometimes easier, and simpler to turn to pornography than to enter the complex minefield of relationships, in which one makes oneself just as vulnerable as can be to having ones property lifted, reputation besmirched, to even be deprived of liberty, because somebody pointed a finger out of girlish pique, and some authority figure believed them.
Yeah, because that certainly happens WAY more often than good relationships do. :rolleyes:

If a guy hates and fears women so much that he would refrain from relationships based upon the thinking you outline, maybe he deserves what will likely ultimately become his lonely life. Vulnerability is a two-way street, you know. It's not only the guy who can get screwed, hurt, and torn apart, literally and figuratively.

[Admiral_Snackbar]

Disclaimer: This is in no way a slight against Tina and her viewpoints. I've argued for and against both sides of this spectrum, and in the end it is perfectly acceptable to agree to disagree. The ideas and opinions expressed by Admiral Snackbar are in no way indicative of all men when it comes to pornography or entertainment. No animals were harmed during the drafting of this post. :)

First, you have the attempted brainwashing of boys and men. They are told what they should find attractive and what they should expect from women. Women should be thin and slutty, and should make these and those moves and those sounds. Women really mean "yes" when they say "no," and are willing to fuck just about anyone. I would say that soap operas, Oprah and the endless deluge of daytime television brainwashes housewives and other women who somehow see it as in some way reflective of real life. Dr. Phil does not 'solve' problems. He trots out his 21st Century Sideshow and watches the parents cry as their geek kid bites the head off the proverbial chicken and then tells them that their problems will all be solved if they just read his new bestseller, IN STORES NOW. The problem of brainwashing goes far beyond pornography. Clothing companies, advertising in general, marketing, you name it. They all know the simple formula that sex sells. You want to draw attention to your commercial? Put a bikini model in it. I would love to have been the fly on the wall when the execs were pitching the Olsen Twins 'Prostitot' clothing lines. Someone surely had to say "you know, this stuff fundamentally sexualizes pre-teen girls and can cause a lot of problems." Then another person trots out the demographics for clothing sales for females ages 10-15 vs. the popularity of the Olsen Twins and everyone realizes they will all get nice big bonuses for Christmas if they just push their wares. Rap music is another example. You can justify the pornification of anything given a large enough dump truck full of money.

I would say the "no means yes" thing is more prevalent in Asian adult entertainment, where the wife/mother/secret-holding character is through sexual dominance reduced to a stool pigeon, giving up secrets, virginity, and modesty when the male antagonist is raping (read as giving them their first REAL orgasm) them. It's prevalent in many aspects of their entertainment, from hardcore anime to samurai films. Think of Eastwood in High Plains Drifter; the woman who saw him as an uncouth bastard changed her tune after he took her out back and fucked the shit out of her...then all she wanted to do was bear his children. The dominance of women by men goes much further back than Behind the Green Door. Genesis did it first, St. Paul helped. And that's not even going into Islam or Orthodox Judaism.

Porn is formulaic because it is simple and bereft of creativity. In the early 80s, it was still a legitimate alternative art form; the production values were astronomical, they had interesting, complete plots and sets. The stories were erotic because they bothered to build it up. In the end, you could say the art was lost when the male lead shot a load in the lead actresses face, and I do agree. When you have a product that is mainly masturbation material, appealing often to the more primitive male mind and visual cues, all you need are just a few props to sell your wares.

Men shouldn't have to really try very hard to please their partner, and women can come from penetration alone. This, to me, is basically the take-home message of porn. Some guys are immune to these repeated messages, to one degree or another; some are not. And that's just mainstream porn. I would go one step further: The woman's orgasm is an afterthought, and the money shot is all that matters. Very rarely do you see the male talent bring the woman to an actual, visually verifiable orgasm. You may get closer to it with girl/girl porn, where they focus on each other rather than bringing some guy off, but even then most of it is still acting. Look also at the fact that male talent is really nothing more than a penis prop. The girl sells the video, she's the one who draws the sales and in the end (depending on the director) it is she the camera focuses on vs. the usually hairy and dumpy guy she's been paired up with. These days with Viagra, you get the roid boys involved more and more, but overall the profit ratio for the female vs. male talent is easily 6 to 1. Overall, the only women in the industry who make a name for themselves financially are the ones who go into business for themselves, or do porn and then go into stripping. The men who own the video companies still hold the pursestrings when it comes to generating the most profit. The idea of royalties in porn is almost a laughable one.

I got into porn in my teens due to other guy friends who had older brothers and a few discarded magazines from my parents. It became a comfortable substitute for real relationships, because at times you get tired of working hard, being a gentleman and being relegated to the status of the intellectual whore to girls who want nothing to do with the fat boy romantically or sexually. I mean, I was a thin kid until 2nd grade, had all sorts of kissy-po girlfriends. When I started getting fat, you could almost hear the crickets chirping. I'm not condemning them, because they were only going with the flow, and in a lot of ways I am more angry at myself for letting my good nature get taken for granted.

Even still, porn was only a substitute. I didn't build my life or my image of women around it, because I saw it for the fantasy (albeit one-sided) it was. There are men who see the porno lifestyle as reflective of real life, and they are as naive as the guys who think that selling crack and packing heat while you drive your pimped out ride is a way to be successful and attractive to the ladies. The stories overall are never happy, and the sob stories are always the ones you hear more often. You had women who were confident and happy as pornstars (and it showed) who made a career of it and saw it for what it was, and you also had young, naive girls who came into town on the bus and got run through the grist mill, dashing their hopes of legitimate acting to the ground because they got caught up in porn or had to somehow make money when they left home.

When I was publishing my feminist mag, one of our readers wrote in about how the guys at her work had all kinds of porn on their computers, and how the women there were treated. She said she felt that because of a fixation on porn, the men devalued women and looked at them as only sex objects, and not as capable co-workers. She gave many examples to back up her claims. She ended up writing an article for us based upon the letter. I will say that this is a two-way street. At my company we had no incidences with men having porn on computers, but we had many ladies talking loudly about a sex toy party at one of their homes on the weekend that 'offended' a male co-worker and resulted in some disciplinary action. I also had co-workers who had porn that both men and women alike enjoyed seeing together. I don't believe it has any place in the workplace, and companies work very hard to fight that sort of thing. Your reader should have followed the appropriate action to get disciplinary actions filed against those men.

Women, however, are given the message that they must be thin to be attractive. Again, mainstream porn, but that message is flipped on its head regarding fat porn, of course. Women are shown that we should dress a certain way, move a certain way, sound a certain way, and love to drink semen as if it were a milkshake. Per my earlier statement, porn is just a symptom of the larger objectification process in Hollywood, fashion and advertising. I think young girls get their unrealistic body role model expectations from Elle and Cosmo moreso than Backdoor Sluts 9, although all of them together contribute to the objectification and fantasy depiction of women.

I think that porn often follows stereotypical 'thinking' and sends a message about what sex should be. It is such a lucrative industry that they really don't care what the message is, as long as money is being made. I think Oprah is porn for housewives, because it sends a message about what a happy marriage/sex life/woman should be. Maury Povich sends a message that paternity testing is a painful process worthy of entertainment and shock value. Oprah, Maury, Bill O'Reilly and everyone else in that sort of entertainment medium are simply trying to sell a product (themselves) as much as Jenna Jameson or Buttman are. One group of them just does it in a more graphic and lascivious manner. Two sides of the same coin in my opinion.

And that's not even going into the things that are done to women in order to make the porn (kidnapping, drugging, rape, other types of violence). I see an actual negative value in hardcore porn, personally. That right there is a hefty dose of Dworkin and McKinnon talking. In the early days when porn wasn't popular, most women did get involved in seedy lifestyles that lent them to edgy porn. Now that it's mainstream, any woman can walk in off the streets in LA and sign up to try out for a porno, and their friends may cheer her on. Some women go into porn because they love being exhibitionists. Most of them go into it because of childhood sexual trauma or bad feelings of self-worth, single motherhood, a string of bad relationships, etc.. Given the litany of sob stories from mainstream entertainers in the past 30 years, people with fucked up childhoods, abuse (sexual or otherwise) tend to gravitate towards some form of attention whoring. I'm not saying in any way that this is a good thing, only that people will be people.

There is most definitely a very negative aspect to porn, most notably in what gets churned out in the past ten years, most of which I cannot tolerate, and is doing everything it can to make porn that much more evil and worthy of censorship. Spitting, throat fucking, quasi-rape scenes, etc., these are all very negative, misogynistic things, but there is also a market for it. In an industry where pushing the envelope further and further is the key to success, the need to make the sex more debasing, dirty or violent toward women is just a foregone conclusion. The prevalence of internet porn and the ease of access to it is just pulling the finger out of the proverbial dike (no pun intended) and opening a progressively younger generation of people to a form of fantasy best taken in moderation. As with anything where bigger, better faster, more is the way to survive, the people trying to publish legitimate adult entertainment get cast into the same bucket as the guys who make "Grudge Fuck #5".

[Santaclear]

I never liked ANY porn before Dimensions (and I mean the print mag and the early videos) because before that I hadn't seen any fat erotica that was respectful.

By now I've seen tons of it (what I like is the softcore, cheesecakey stuff, still photos, not grungy fuckflicks) and I even shot a bunch of it for one of the successful models. All this immersion changed my thinking for sure and I'm no shining-armor knight but I don't think I respect women any less since, nor treat them differently.

[Tina]

Today has been busy, so I haven't had a chance to respond to you properly, but I did want to address the first part of this next paragraph of yours.

Dworkin? I haven't even read many of Dworkin's works, Admiral. I don't like her much, though she does have something to offer. MacKinnon is okay, but I believe I can formulate my own arguments independently from Ms. Dworkin and Ms. MacKinnon (when it comes to feminists, I generally prefer Bell Hooks, Katha Pollitt and Rebecca Walker, thankyouverymuch :)). The best education I had was from the many, many women I have known around the world, through publishing the mag, who have written about these things and given me an education I would, in many ways, really rather not have had.

Do you really think that porn is that 'innocent' in that way now? I am not just talking about Uni students and others who do it as a lark. I have heard all of the stories from the various women I've known, so I am looking at the whole of porn -- from the videos made of women who have been given rufies and raped on camera and uploaded to the net, to the women in Asia who have been kidnapped and forced into prostitution and/or porn videos and photos, to children that are raped and molested on camera. You cannot think these things do not go on... do you? And these are just quick little examples, because bed is calling.
That right there is a hefty dose of Dworkin and McKinnon talking. In the early days when porn wasn't popular, most women did get involved in seedy lifestyles that lent them to edgy porn. Now that it's mainstream, any woman can walk in off the streets in LA and sign up to try out for a porno, and their friends may cheer her on. Some women go into porn because they love being exhibitionists. Most of them go into it because of childhood sexual trauma or bad feelings of self-worth, single motherhood, a string of bad relationships, etc.. Given the litany of sob stories from mainstream entertainers in the past 30 years, people with fucked up childhoods, abuse (sexual or otherwise) tend to gravitate towards some form of attention whoring. I'm not saying in any way that this is a good thing, only that people will be people.
Admiral, I really am aware for the multitude of reasons why women get into porn, unfortunately. I don't put the women down for it, but the industry and the seedy assholes who profit from pimping women out are definitely on my shit list.

And here's another example for you of how porn can have lasting effects: A few years ago, a father was turned in for raping his young teen daughter over some years. He showed her porn videos so that she would know what to do for him to satisfy him. Now, given human nature, it's not exactly certain what that girl will end up being as an adult, but you've got to know she's screwed up. It may be that she will end up in the sex trade. Yes, many who are have been raped, molested and the like.

I'm not talking Big Cuties here; I'm talking the down and dirty crap that makes unscrupulous people rich, because they are willing to whore anyone out, willing to compromise society in some ways, for the almighty dollar.

Anyway, I appreciate the conversation, but it's not really a welcome subject here, so I don't go into it very often, or very deeply. Good night. :) http://www.tcdesign.net/smilies/icon_sleep.gif

[fasteddie1]

"If a guy hates and fears women so much that he would refrain from relationships based upon the thinking you outline, maybe he deserves what will likely ultimately become his lonely life. Vulnerability is a two-way street, you know. It's not only the guy who can get screwed, hurt, and torn apart, literally and figuratively."
__________________
Here we have the classic "attacking the straw man" sophistry so beloved of feminists. There is nothing in what I wrote about "hating and fearing" anyone.
Put a different way, possibly more comprehensible to someone like yourself, it's often easier to go get off on some cheesy dirty magazine than put up with some spoiled gen-X girlie. My life is very rich, has lots to it besides romantic relationships, and is really too short to spend much of it dealing with the neuroses of Women Studies types, and their little tantrums.

[Tina]

Ha ha! You obviously do not know what a straw man is. Hey, they're your words, you wrote them. I didn't invent them, Eddie. And yeah, I got that point, so you don't need to condescend to me. What I addressed is that I see a real dislike of women in your posts. It's my opinion and I'm allowed to have it. Like it or not.

The only thing you ever post about here is porn, sex and oral sex. You're a one-trick pony, so to speak, and I can maybe see how my opinions might threaten you.

[Tina]

Just want to say that I'm not here to fight, and the previous post will be my last in this thread. Thanks for your interest, though, Admiral. :)

[Aurora]

I wish that good porn DVDs were cheaper. My boyfriend and I picked up a cheaper bbw porn flick and all the chicks were, well... icky. Bad skin, etc. It was entertaining to watch in fast-forward mode though. XD

~Aurora

[krystalltuerme]

It was entertaining to watch in fast-forward mode though. XD

~Aurora


LMFAO!!!!! Oh my god, for some reason seeing this after this heavy debate on the social rammifications of porn made me absolutely lose it! I haven't laughed so hard in quite some time.

[Waxwing]

Being a very porn-positive person (and an active poster on Stripperweb), I don't want to get into the social ramifications talk too much, but.

I've been against it for most of my life, but to me being hot and smart AND strong is the ultimate goal. I can be overtly sexual and I can kick your ass. And to me, the more we de-mystify-- the more we remove the taboo surrounding sexuality, the stronger and healthier we become. All of us.

But in non-philosophical talk, how did I miss Dims after dark for 3 pages!?

[Green Eyed Fairy]

More what it does to people, Admiral. I won't go into it all, but if there is one thing I will discuss that is, IMO, harmful, it's what it does to peoples' minds.

First, you have the attempted brainwashing of boys and men. They are told what they should find attractive and what they should expect from women. Women should be thin and slutty, and should make these and those moves and those sounds. Women really mean "yes" when they say "no," and are willing to fuck just about anyone. Men shouldn't have to really try very hard to please their partner, and women can come from penetration alone. This, to me, is basically the take-home message of porn. Some guys are immune to these repeated messages, to one degree or another; some are not. And that's just mainstream porn.

When I was publishing my feminist mag, one of our readers wrote in about how the guys at her work had all kinds of porn on their computers, and how the women there were treated. She said she felt that because of a fixation on porn, the men devalued women and looked at them as only sex objects, and not as capable co-workers. She gave many examples to back up her claims. She ended up writing an article for us based upon the letter.

Women, however, are given the message that they must be thin to be attractive. Again, mainstream porn, but that message is flipped on its head regarding fat porn, of course. Women are shown that we should dress a certain way, move a certain way, sound a certain way, and love to drink semen as if it were a milkshake.

I think that porn often follows stereotypical 'thinking' and sends a message about what sex should be. It is such a lucrative industry that they really don't care what the message is, as long as money is being made. And that's not even going into the things that are done to women in order to make the porn (kidnapping, drugging, rape, other types of violence). I see an actual negative value in hardcore porn, personally.

I can agree with this- however, I find the most amusing part of it all is when the males that watch porn fail to realize that those women are paid a LOT of money to ooo and ahh. Oh, and not let us also forgot that male porn stars are usually "well-endowed" and "long lasting" to even get the job. With the exception of Ron Jeremy, most are good looking, too. When the women in those porn movies fill out tax returns, what do they put down as their occupation? Let me guess....Actress? :doh:

All of what I just mentioned fails to happen in reality for most of us. I'm not paid to pretend I enjoy it so why should I? Most men don't have a schlong the size of John Holmes. Let's get real.... especially if you hope to move away from masturbating to porn to having real sex.

[Waxwing]

When the women in those porn movies fill out tax returns, what do they put down as their occupation? Let me guess....Actress? :doh:


Actually, they list themselves as adult entertainers, and the women I know who do porn know more about taxes and finance than any men I've met. It's really funny. :D

The men, to be fair, aren't usually that long lasting. A scene that runs for 20 minutes is usually shot over a period of 6 hours or so. It's not a one time shot, as it were.

[Green Eyed Fairy]

Actually, they list themselves as adult entertainers, and the women I know who do porn know more about taxes and finance than any men I've met. It's really funny. :D

The men, to be fair, aren't usually that long lasting. A scene that runs for 20 minutes is usually shot over a period of 6 hours or so. It's not a one time shot, as it were.

Thanks for ruining THAT fantasy for me....oh jeez :doh: :p

[Waxwing]

Thanks for ruining THAT fantasy for me....oh jeez :doh: :p

Hahaha, I'm sorry. :p Once you talk to people who do porn it's amazing how many fantasies are ruined for you.

But they're still well-endowed!!!

[mossystate]

Let's not forget that 6.2...seconds...of kitty licking....must take a good 5 hours to get that in the can. I don't think we need more of the same. Obviously, that has not made our society more open and healthy, sexually. Now, I must get back to my original....thought...heh.

[Green Eyed Fairy]

Hahaha, I'm sorry. :p Once you talk to people who do porn it's amazing hoe many fantasies are ruined for you.

But they're still well-endowed!!!


At least something about porn is real ;)

[Admiral_Snackbar]

I can agree with this- however, I find the most amusing part of it all is when the males that watch porn fail to realize that those women are paid a LOT of money to ooo and ahh. Oh, and not let us also forgot that male porn stars are usually "well-endowed" and "long lasting" to even get the job. With the exception of Ron Jeremy, most are good looking, too. When the women in those porn movies fill out tax returns, what do they put down as their occupation? Let me guess....Actress?
I didn't want to touch on that too much, but many people have very little idea how much the men are objectified in hetero porn compared to the women, especially in terms of the paycheck. I would argue against the 'good looking' part, because a) as a guy, it's hard for me to visualize a porn fantasy when the dude is uglier than I am and b) well-endowed has little to do with it. Watch the series with Seymore Butts on Showtime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Business_%28TV_series%29): He gave two shits as to how good looking the guy was, how hung he was, only that he could get hard and climax on cue. Seymore detested Viagra, so finding a man who could handle the requirements was like the old tale of the man scouring the earth for eternity looking for an honest person.

When you look back into the history of adult cinema, the names that come up over and over again are hardly heartthrobs nor are they Wonder Schlongs. Guys like Randy West, John Stagliano (Buttman), John Leslie, Herschel Savage...these guys were rough to look at, average in every sense of the word and sadly enough, two of them are still screwing in movies to this day. I cannot even RENT a movie with West or Savage in them; it'd be like watching my grandad screw some guy's college-aged daughter. Ron Jeremy is still in it because, well, he's fucking RON JEREMY. I always like to think there's some secret BHM Illuminati that decreed that Jeremy will be an actor in adult films in perpetuity until he dies, if for nothing else to give us hairy hedgehog-looking mo-fo's something to strive towards ;)

There are good looking guys in adult movies, and when they couldn't get it up anymore without help or decided they were better off staying disease-free, they went behind the camera. Some of them played both sides. I know a lot of women who adored movies with heartthrob Italian star Rocco Siffredi; tall, handsome, hung like a 40 oz. beercan, accent, suave...everything. As long as someone else held the reins and let him be a sexy and somewhat normal stuntcock, women couldn't get enough of him. Then he went on to make his own series that he controlled, then it was all verbal abuse, spitting, smacking and angry shit...it's impossible to watch his stuff now because so much of it is just mean.

But I digress. I didn't intend to take up a pro vs. anti-porn stance on this thread; it's one of those topics that is so varied, so strong in the emotionality, that it's almost akin to a religion vs. atheism thread. One side will pull out Falwell and The Inquisition, the other side pulls out Stalin and Pol Pot and in the end no one can agree on anything else except the super dickery of the other side. Same with porn. Someone takes the "it's only entertainment stance," then someone goes into the "destroys lives and dignity" angle and we're left at a stalemate, or at the very least, an agreement to disagree.

I cannot speak to what Tina has experienced in her life or has seen in the lives of women who are truly abused in some way. It's always the backstory which is critical. A woman is abused continually by men in her life, sees all sex as somehow subjugating her because in her case it has, and by extension equates her experience to all hetero relationships and most of sexuality based on what she experienced. Porn and the general sexual freedoms of today's society provides easy targets (and in most cases they are), and thus they become easy generalizations for what is to blame. Nevermind the hordes of women and men who come into Hollywood day after day wanting to be the next Oscar-winning actor. Nevermind the tales of models who would rather fuck on film and get paid than deal with the ignominy of the casting couch and get nothing in return except a bad reputation.

For every woman that gets into porn because she was raped at a young age or got involved in sex too young and was brainwashed/convinced in some way that it was all she would ever be good for, there are ten other women who enjoy the attention and the easy money and the relative fame it brings and did it of their own free will and interest. Somewhere in between lies your varied experiences, good and bad. In a more common manner, for every couple that sees porn as a healthy addition to their fantasy life, there are many others who have lost friends, spouses and loved ones based on the addiction to and reliance on porn as a sexual outlet.

Do you really think that porn is that 'innocent' in that way now? I am not just talking about Uni students and others who do it as a lark. I have heard all of the stories from the various women I've known, so I am looking at the whole of porn -- from the videos made of women who have been given rufies and raped on camera and uploaded to the net, to the women in Asia who have been kidnapped and forced into prostitution and/or porn videos and photos, to children that are raped and molested on camera. You cannot think these things do not go on... do you? I said that porn has become mainstream much as the taboos of most sexuality have become mainstream. Hell, I see what teenage girls wear these days and it freaks me out, much less the rather frightening statistic that most of them will have had sex by the time they are 16. As for the examples you mentioned, I cannot vouch for their frequency. I know the rape statistics are frightening whether a significant number of rapes involve a publicly-displayed videotaping of the event or otherwise (I personally have never, in all my travels online, ever heard of some site that would openly indicate a woman was drugged and raped on film). I would also say that rape and the subjugation of women has gone on for millenia and all without the involvement of pornography: On that fact I can do nothing but agree with the Dworkins and MacKinnons of the world. The sex trade across the world is obvious. Most of that does not reach the average porno viewer, though, but like anything else those that want it will find a way to get it. The problem obviously goes much further and deeper than what most of us are exposed to.

I'm not talking Big Cuties here; I'm talking the down and dirty crap that makes unscrupulous people rich, because they are willing to whore anyone out, willing to compromise society in some ways, for the almighty dollar. Porno movie makers get rich off their products, that much is certain. Brothel owners in Nevada, pimps in the street, have a 90/10 cut of the profits if not more. Mainstream film actresses still get paid less than their male counterparts, and the inequalities of pay and respect still exist in the general employment arena. If the internet has demonstrated one thing, it's that an adult actress has a better chance (with the help of some business savvy and connections) of making an empire that she owns herself vs. sticking with a monolithic company like Vivid Video that takes the majority of the profits. Until that becomes more common, until the women can control the power of their own images to make their own names for themselves, you will always see a terribly unfair balance in how the adult business operates.

Please don't see this is as some sort of attack. I above anyone else appreciate a healthy debate on any issue. :)

[Tina]

I wasn't going to post, but I enjoy your posts so much across the board that I had to, Admiral. I can definitely agree with some of what you say. I never meant to say that the things I listed are always the rule, but it has happened and does happen enough that I don't think the benefits outweigh the damage. Those reasons and more are why I dislike porn.

You're right when it comes to men in porn to the extent that the guys are just props, but since the bulk of porn is made for straight men why would they be anything more?

Your comment about how "well endowed has little to do with it." Ron White. Hear of him? In one of his routines he says (now, paraphrased, mind you):

I think all men are at least a tiny bit gay. My friend disagreed with that strongly and it went something like this...

"nah, all men are not gay."

I said "Yes they are. When you see a guy getting it on with a woman, do you want him to have a small dick?"

"No way" he said. "I want 'em to have big... Oh."

The thing about porn and whatever aspects of the sex trade is that it seems those who are in it often end up detesting the opposite sex, like that Italian actor/director you mention. I have heard of this from many women in the business. They often see the worst side of men and over time end up turned off and end up turning to other women. I can imagine it might be the same for men.

Fact is that men are objectified in society, too, but until the power balance shifts, the objectification will continue to mostly benefit men, since it's mostly men who profit the most from porn, etc (no, not the 'stunt dick,' but the money men).

I'm not trying to get porn banned; I don't believe in that and feel people should be able to do as they like in that regard (as long as we're not talking violence or children). Heck, I also know of several women who enjoy porn, and particularly that made by women. I just feel that generally porn doesn't do much to help society at large, and often ends up breaking up marriages and other relationships. I know of several.

Thank you for the discussion, Admiral. :) And GEF, I'm sorry you have had the experiences you have. It sounds like you've gotten the short end of the sexual stick, so to speak.

[Friday]

Admiral, you've insulted hedgehogs I think. Ron Jeremy makes my skin crawl.

[liz (di-va)]

I have a lot of disparate thoughts about pornography (adding up to nothing very cohesive), most of which y'all have touched on! I think that porn is an ingrained human urge; with every new technology (printing presses, video cameras), the first thing humans do is take photos of their bum, so I think porn is fairly well inevitable in the presence of humans + any reproductive (hah) technology. However, I dont think that means it's...harmless, meaningless, just life. And do I think it's complicated; it's not all about causing behavior, it's not all about reflecting behavior, and it is a LOT about money. And I think (hello T) the line twixt porn and everything else is really freakin thin these days. That has changed enormously over the course of my life as a card-carrying Gen-X-er, and I would say our generation is one of the last to see it before and after. That has some bizarre dangers built into it.

I will say this: to paraphrase the great Candye Kane, big girl porn was a fairly effective tool for me on the road to size acceptance. For someone who just couldn't believe (at that point) that anybody wanted to shag fat girls, it ending up providing some very direct validation. I DO feel lucky that I discovered it as an adult, with the ability to (hopefully!) debunk/diffuse some of the concomitant nastiness, but basically, I have fine feelings about its existence.

I also have my own modest experience with the phenom: For a couple years I was art director (you can put that in quotes; there were just two of us) for a fat smut zine, a very pansexual, kink/lbgt-friendly one, and that also contributed to my feelings about porn, to wit: the furtherment of the idea that lust is lust, most everyone wants to see what they lust after in print, and it is actually possible to represent sexuality in interestin hot ways that aren't completely gnarly (dead-eyed, misyogynist, fundamentally depressing, whatever). We were free to create the world we wanted to see/read, and we did, and there were others reading it. So...more (size) positiveness.

But my feelings, which I would say have the luxury of existing after some necessary rebellion about it all, still aren't b&w...I'm all over the place with them (including about Hef). I do try to support independently-owned woman-positive sex shops/buy their wares/support women-produced porn, something I don't think I woulda thought was possible in my mid-80s college years when porn was so very Bad.

This wasn't yer original question, was it, AS. We should be discussing...the maligning of the common, innocent Hedgehog in these RJeremy-conversant modern times. They are so cute.

[Admiral_Snackbar]

Your comment about how "well endowed has little to do with it." Ron White. Hear of him? In one of his routines he says (now, paraphrased, mind you) Oh I know the Ron White quote. I wasn't speaking so much to their endowments (although to be honest, even as a guy seeing Rodney Moore naked makes me rather queasy) but rather their general attractiveness. Randy West will make someone a nice set of luggage some day.

The thing about porn and whatever aspects of the sex trade is that it seems those who are in it often end up detesting the opposite sex, like that Italian actor/director you mention. I have heard of this from many women in the business. They often see the worst side of men and over time end up turned off and end up turning to other women. I can imagine it might be the same for men. As a public service, I would like (as a guy) to list some actors who I feel are representing the worst that the male gender has to offer these days in terms of objectification or outright humiliation of the women in their films. This is by no means complete:

Max Hardcore (by far the WORST of the bunch; most of his stuff should be outright banned due to how close it is to rape. Oddly enough, his shit sells like hotcakes)
T.T. Boy (I see asshole fratboy written all over this dude)
Rocco Siffredi (most of the stuff he made in the 90s with Buttman were acceptable)
Herschel Savage (not so much a total jerk but his age difference compared to his female stars is rather unsettling)
Nacho Vidal (this guy does all sorts of tranny porn now, so hard to say where he got his hatred from; nevertheless he's an ass)
Eric Everhard
Brandon Irons
Shane Diesel or Boz: These guys are the racist pornographers, the guys who are scary big in the nether regions and play up the whole "your daddy would disown you for screwing a n-word, smile for daddy" stuff.

Thanks for your understanding and patience with my massive posts of late. This isn't something you can summarize quickly.

[Green Eyed Fairy]

I didn't want to touch on that too much, but many people have very little idea how much the men are objectified in hetero porn compared to the women, especially in terms of the paycheck. I would argue against the 'good looking' part, because a) as a guy, it's hard for me to visualize a porn fantasy when the dude is uglier than I am and b) well-endowed has little to do with it. Watch the series with Seymore Butts on Showtime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Business_%28TV_series%29): He gave two shits as to how good looking the guy was, how hung he was, only that he could get hard and climax on cue. Seymore detested Viagra, so finding a man who could handle the requirements was like the old tale of the man scouring the earth for eternity looking for an honest person.

When you look back into the history of adult cinema, the names that come up over and over again are hardly heartthrobs nor are they Wonder Schlongs. Guys like Randy West, John Stagliano (Buttman), John Leslie, Herschel Savage...these guys were rough to look at, average in every sense of the word and sadly enough, two of them are still screwing in movies to this day. I cannot even RENT a movie with West or Savage in them; it'd be like watching my grandad screw some guy's college-aged daughter. Ron Jeremy is still in it because, well, he's fucking RON JEREMY. I always like to think there's some secret BHM Illuminati that decreed that Jeremy will be an actor in adult films in perpetuity until he dies, if for nothing else to give us hairy hedgehog-looking mo-fo's something to strive towards ;)




I suppose the long and short of this is that since they don't put good looking men all the time with nice looking penises, then it must be safe to assume that the porn was made for men. Another reason for women not to like it if it's all "male oriented", imo.

[Rojodi]

I've been reading this thread, and now, I'm lost. Porn is bad, we know that, it's like sugar to the brain. What about erotica? Is that bad, too? Does it degrade women and men? And what about romance novels? Now those are bad for men: how can we EVER live up to those fantasies?

[Admiral_Snackbar]

I suppose the long and short of this is that since they don't put good looking men all the time with nice looking penises, then it must be safe to assume that the porn was made for men. Another reason for women not to like it if it's all "male oriented", imo. A guy can appreciate a good-looking guy screwing an equally good-looking woman. We can't all be tripods. ;) A certain amount of the fantasy is peppered with reality, hence the troglodytes who can maintain hardness to do the deed that make the rest of us look gorgeous by comparison. Hard to draw a line across it all.

Most porn is assuredly male-oriented. Most of the acts are designed to titillate men, not women. The nature of the beast so to speak. When I watched 'couples porn' with the wife, I tended to just enjoy the scene whereas the lady made sure to critique the guy, his overall appearance, the implants of the woman (or some other similar cosmetic appearance) or her choice in shoes. The women in my past who have done this also gave me the inside scoop on how to spot C-section scars and other details best left unsaid.

To me the mark of a good couples adult film is when the couple watching are too caught up in it to say ANYTHING, and just commence to touching ;)

[EtobicokeFA]

I've been reading this thread, and now, I'm lost. Porn is bad, we know that, it's like sugar to the brain. What about erotica? Is that bad, too? Does it degrade women and men? And what about romance novels? Now those are bad for men: how can we EVER live up to those fantasies?


Now, I am confused! Isn't erotica, the same as porn just with a lot of attention to the romance?

[Tina]

No problem, Admiral. I admit I'm happy to say that I have no idea who any of those guys are... :p

When it comes to porn, though, I have to say that I have bought a handful of Playgirl magazines in my day, though not for quite a while...

[Aurora]

I don't think porn is bad. But it depends on your definition of the word. I like porn. I draw porn. Porn = happy 'Rora. As long as no one gets hurt (unless... it's like, bdsm stuff and it's supposed to be that way lol) I don't see why it's a big deal. Yeah, there are some asshats who do stupid stuff and degrade and obsess over money and etc. etc. but you find that everywhere.

[Friday]

I checked out Herschel Savage Admiral only because you've mentioned his age more than once re: the age of his 'co-stars'. The guy's 52 years old. BFD. Have you checked the age of a lot of Hollywood's leading men? I don't even watch movies and right off the top of my head all of the following are older than Savage. Harrison Ford (65), Robert De Niro (64), Jack Nicholson (70, who personally makes me retch and has for years), Warren Beatty (70), Robert Redford (71), Clint Eastwood (77), Sean Connery (77), Al Pacino (67), the list goes on. All have played male romantic leads within the last few years and rarely are their female counterparts over 30. So why the Jones about a 52 year old male porn star?

[Admiral_Snackbar]

I checked out Herschel Savage Admiral only because you've mentioned his age more than once re: the age of his 'co-stars'. The guy's 52 years old. BFD. Have you checked the age of a lot of Hollywood's leading men? I don't even watch movies and right off the top of my head all of the following are older than Savage. Harrison Ford (65), Robert De Niro (64), Jack Nicholson (70, who personally makes me retch and has for years), Warren Beatty (70), Robert Redford (71), Clint Eastwood (77), Sean Connery (77), Al Pacino (67), the list goes on. All have played male romantic leads within the last few years and rarely are their female counterparts over 30. So why the Jones about a 52 year old male porn star?
For one thing, more often than not Savage plays the 'dirty old man' banging the 'implied' high school/college aged nymphettes. Plus, in many ways I think the men have this unspoken 'initiation ritual' where they pair the young new talent right off the bus with the nasty older guys (Jeremy, Savage, etc.). It's one thing to see the implication that Pacino is banging a 20-year-old college student, another thing to see some guy ACTUALLY doing it.

For some reason Herschel Savage is the only one that really bothers me, I don't know why. I don't care if he's paired up with the star that I think is hotter than hell, I cannot stand to watch him in any movies.

[mossystate]

I agree with Friday. It is one thing to see ( and none for me..thanks ) a movie where some much older man is actually going at some much younger woman in a porn...and a movie where the women is not portrayed as some drunk..or ' naughty nympho '..etc..but is a woman who of COURSE wants a man old enough to be her very much over the average age, father. I think it is much more sleazy and obnoxious to continue seeing these pairings in mainstream movies. It is not about this working for some real life people...it is about Hollywood continuing to see women mostly in terms of youthful ' attractiveness ' and paired with much older men, until the women reach ' a certain age ' or botox and diet themselves to hope for one more year..one more movie..where they can have Clint Eastwood climb into the saddle...urp.

One scenario is just gross..the other is more insidious and keeps the idea of women in Hollywood as dynamic and desireable after age 40..50..60 ( whatever the age of the oldest actor is who gets to snuggle with much younger women and don't trot out the tired examples of a few who fight to stay looking young..that's BS )....squashed.

[Admiral_Snackbar]

I agree with Friday. It is one thing to see ( and none for me..thanks ) a movie where some much older man is actually going at some much younger woman in a porn...and a movie where the women is not portrayed as some drunk..or ' naughty nympho '..etc..but is a woman who of COURSE wants a man old enough to be her very much over the average age, father. I forgot to mention that the older-woman/younger man (or woman) "MILF" type films are definitely in vogue now. So, you've seen some of the older adult film stars (Nina Hartley for example) coming back to front and center stage to screw guys young enough to be their kids.

I do agree with you that the mainstream is more accepting of the older man/younger woman dynamic than the opposite, but the question is how you reverse that phenomenon. Old, wealthy men still run all the studios. Older, wealthy, experienced male actors still rule the roost (plus when have you seen Jack Nicholson date ANYTHING that wasn't half his age?). I for one would love to see Ann Margaret or Sophia Loren or Raquel Welch in a lead as a powerful, sexy leading lady. Helen Mirren is still very hot to me. It's just a matter of someone making the watershed movie that puts the age/experience > youth/stamina dynamic to the test.

[Aireman]

I'm a little shocked by how casually some people can discuss porn as if it was a real issue. All porn to me is a little depressing actually. Unrealistic. It's not even fantasy. Any one who actually has an encounter like that would be on the order of millions to one.
Don't get me wrong. I like looking at a an apealling woman as the the next guy but, I don't have to see them nekkid and panting for "my huge hot rod". That's just wholly unrealistic. Any woman who does that is acting! And really wants something else. Sex is just sex. I don't see the big deal.

[Seth Warren]

Sex is just sex. I don't see the big deal.


If sex is just sex, then you're doing it wrong! :D