Track Star Caster Semenya Controversy

[goofy girl]

** if this is too "hyde park-ish" feel free to close the thread, but I felt this is important to discuss.**

As we've all heard by now, the track star could possibly lose her title due to issues regarding her gender.

Story here (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/32477147/)


Runner’s dad rebuffs doubters: ‘She’s a woman’
IAAF suspects that South African teen track star Semenya isn't woman
The Associated Press
updated 2:28 p.m. ET, Thurs., Aug 20, 2009
BERLIN - The South African teenager caught up in the gender-test flap bowed her head to receive the gold medal for winning the 800-meter win at the world championships on Thursday, while officials and family came to her defense.

Caster Semenya won by a huge margin Wednesday in the face of revelations that the world track body asked her to undergo gender testing.

Asked while walking into the medal ceremony how she was feeling, Semenya smiled and said, “Good, man.”

Dressed in a yellow and green track suit, Semenya waved to the crowd as she ascended the podium to receive her gold medal. She stood with her hands behind her back and mouthed the words to the South African national anthem.

Her dramatic improvement, muscular build and deep voice sparked speculation about her gender. Her father, grandmother and cousin dismissed speculation she is not a woman.

“She said to me she doesn’t see what the big deal is all about,” South Africa team manager Phiwe Mlangeni-Tsholetsane said. “She believes it is God given talent and she will exercise it.”

About three weeks ago, the IAAF asked the South African athletics federation to conduct the gender test after Semenya burst onto the scene by posting a world leading time of 1 minute, 56.72 seconds at the African junior championships in Bambous, Mauritius.

Her father, Jacob, told the Sowetan newspaper: “She is my little girl. ... I raised her and I have never doubted her gender. She is a woman and I can repeat that a million times.”

Semenya’s paternal grandmother, Maputhi Sekgala, said the controversy “doesn’t bother me that much because I know she’s a woman.”

“What can I do when they call her a man, when she’s really not a man? It is God who made her look that way,” Sekgala told the South African daily The Times.

South African athletics federation president Leonard Chuene defended the teenager Thursday, and insisted Semenya is facing intense scrutiny because she is African.

“It would not be like that if it were some young girl from Europe,” Chuene told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. “If it was a white child, she would be sitting somewhere with a psychologist, but this is an African child.”

Chuene also said there was no evidence to prove Semenya was doing anything wrong.

“If there was evidence, she would have been stopped,” Chuene said. “Where I come from, you’re innocent until proven guilty.

“They’re judging her based on what?” Chuene added. “Who can give me conclusive evidence? I want someone to do that.”

Semenya did not attend the medal winners’ news conference after winning by a margin of more than 2 seconds, in 1:55.45. She was replaced at the dais by IAAF general secretary Pierre Weiss.

Weiss said the testing was ordered because of “ambiguity, not because we believe she is cheating.”

If the tests show that Semenya is not a woman, she would be stripped of her gold medal, Weiss said.

The gender test, which takes weeks to complete, requires a physical medical evaluation, and includes reports from a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and an expert on gender.

“We have to be very scrupulously fair and sensitive about” the issue, IAAF spokesman Nick Davies said Thursday. “It’s all very well people saying she’s a man, she looks like a man — that’s not good enough. You have to be very careful and cautious about that.”

Davies added that Semenya has already undergone some of the necessary tests at specialist hospitals in South Africa and Berlin. He said some of the documents in Berlin on Semenya’s case were leaked.

Gender testing used to be mandatory for female athletes at the Olympics, but the screenings were dropped in 1999.

One reason for the change was not all women have standard female chromosomes. In addition, there are cases of people who have ambiguous genitalia or other congenital conditions.

The most common cause of sexual ambiguity is congenital adrenal hyperplasia, an endocrine disorder where the adrenal glands produce abnormally high levels of hormones.

Morris Gilbert, a media consultant for TuksSport, the University of Pretoria’s sports department, said the issue of Semenya’s gender has not been raised since the 18-year-old freshman began attending the school, where she studies sports science.

He attributed her recent success to hard work and rigorous training.

“She trains a lot,” Gilbert said. “If you go to the athletics track, you’re sure to find her there. I don’t think she had really good training before she came to the university. She’s from a very poor area.”

But Semenya’s former school headmaster said he thought for years that the student was a boy.

“She was always rough and played with the boys. She liked soccer and she wore pants to school. She never wore a dress. It was only in Grade 11 that I realized she’s a girl,” Eric Modiba, head of the Nthema Secondary School, told the Beeld newspaper.

Semenya’s family in the village of Fairlie, about 300 miles north of Johannesburg, said she was often teased about her boyish looks.

“That’s how God made her,” said Semenya’s cousin, Evelyn Sekgala. “We brought her up in a way that when people start making fun of her, she shouldn’t get upset.”

Semenya moved to Fairlie at about age 13 to help care for her grandmother.

Her cousin Evelyn, who also lives with the grandmother, remembers Semenya playing soccer with the village boys, before a teacher got her interested in running.

Evelyn said the family was pleased Semenya took up an interest in sports, and not in drinking and partying like other teenagers.

Her grandmother would give her money to enter races.

“She was mainly interested in running,” Evelyn said. “She wanted to further her athletic dream.”

While Semenya’s case has attracted a flurry of attention, it’s not the first gender controversy in track and field history.

In 2006, the Asian Games 800 champion, Santhi Soundarajan of India, was stripped of her medal after failing a gender test. Perhaps the most famous case is that of Stella Walsh, also known as Stanislawa Walasiewicz, a Polish athlete who won gold in the 100 at the 1932 Olympics, and was later found to have had ambiguous genitalia.

.
Now, I know I'm a bit naive about things, but I never realized that gender testing is performed on athletes in major (or any) competitions.

Is this really fair?? I can see it in some circumstances - I'm thinking along the lines of Tootsie, Bosom Buddies and Mrs Doubtfire here - but this seems extreme.

We don't know all the facts yet, but I would think that if Semenya has felt she is and lived her entire life as a woman than she should be able to compete in female sports.

Thoughts?

[Geektastic1]

Here is how I feel about this:

http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/xx_why_tell_IAAF_to_stay_out_of_Caster_Semenyas_pa nts

Gender testing on athletes has it's origins in the Cold War era, when Eastern Bloc countries were suspected of entering male athletes in female competitions. From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_verification_in_sports

Kudos to the reporter of this news article for doing good research and for explaining the fact that biological sex isn't as simple as people assume it is. It's not just a matter of XX or XY chromosomes. A person's chromosomal sex, gonadal sex, and phenotypic sex don't always match, and there is a lot of room for in-between. Here's some info on intersexuality from good old Wikipedia again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality

[Melian]

As a biologist, I feel compelled to argue in favour of delineating athletes based on biological sex.

It's an issue of fairness for all competitors (and in this sense, ALL competitors should be tested before entering a high-level sport). In this particular case, she was showing a ridiculously high level of testosterone, or so I heard on the news last night, which may have arisen naturally or from doping. Once a person who is female by gender crosses into male levels of testosterone, her mind might recognize that she is female but her body believes it is a male - the response is formation of tighter, larger, more efficient muscles and certain other male physical characteristics that bestow a significant advantage over female athletes.

It is a very gray area, I'm sure. I just can't help but think back to my (girls) hockey team as a child - another team had two guys posing as females on it, and they SMOKED every other team. It wasn't that we were bad....it's just that they were huge, powerful, faster, shot harder, etc, and it was largely the result of their physiology.

Anyway, just an opinion. No flames, please ;)

[Observer]

Exposing female impersonators who were in fact male on a city hockey team is one thing, but this case is far different and seems a bit too much.

Certain African tribes have exceptionally lanky builds and are supurb runners, probably the swiftest in the world. They can even catch caribou on the run. We all know that.

Why should anyone be surprised that a female African who has been into sports all her life can go into rigorous training and suddenly start setting running records? Its in her genes - and I don't mean her sexual identity ones.

This whole thing to me sounds like sour grapes by those not so gifted.

[katorade]

Certain African tribes have exceptionally lanky builds and are supurb runners, probably the swiftest in the world. They can even catch caribou on the run. We all know that.


Except for the fact that there are no caribou in Africa.


Also, even if she were a male identifying as a woman, her physical build alone would give her an unfair advantage over women, period.













And seriously ironic, unfortunate name. Semenya. Semen, ya.

[fffff]

Except for the fact that there are no caribou in Africa.
.

Someone just got told.

[mergirl]

Except for the fact that there are no caribou in Africa.


Also, even if she were a male identifying as a woman, her physical build alone would give her an unfair advantage over women, period.













And seriously ironic, unfortunate name. Semenya. Semen, ya.

Well how do you explain the muscle bound Native Americans? Don't you know they evolved that way from fighting with polar bears and riding on narwhals!!!:mad:
tee-hee:p

[mergirl]

Exposing female impersonators who were in fact male on a city hockey team is one thing, but this case is far different and seems a bit too much.

Certain African tribes have exceptionally lanky builds and are supurb runners, probably the swiftest in the world. They can even catch caribou on the run. We all know that.

Why should anyone be surprised that a female African who has been into sports all her life can go into rigorous training and suddenly start setting running records? Its in her genes - and I don't mean her sexual identity ones.

This whole thing to me sounds like sour grapes by those not so gifted.
I..i quite literally do not know where to begin!!!
One, which African tribes are you talking about? Africa is a BIG continent and is host to a diverse selection of peoples.
Ok..the Cariboiu has been covered.
Sexual identity genes? Please cite evidence for the discovery of 'Identity genes' -I kinna always though identity was socially constructed but maby you were taught differently.
I have more to add regarding stereotying of groups of people and genetics but i need to go get my dinner and i don't want to come across as a genetically argumentative scot! Though, my Scottish genetic identity is VERY strong! :D

[goofy girl]

As a biologist, I feel compelled to argue in favour of delineating athletes based on biological sex.

It's an issue of fairness for all competitors (and in this sense, ALL competitors should be tested before entering a high-level sport). In this particular case, she was showing a ridiculously high level of testosterone, or so I heard on the news last night, which may have arisen naturally or from doping. Once a person who is female by gender crosses into male levels of testosterone, her mind might recognize that she is female but her body believes it is a male - the response is formation of tighter, larger, more efficient muscles and certain other male physical characteristics that bestow a significant advantage over female athletes.

It is a very gray area, I'm sure. I just can't help but think back to my (girls) hockey team as a child - another team had two guys posing as females on it, and they SMOKED every other team. It wasn't that we were bad....it's just that they were huge, powerful, faster, shot harder, etc, and it was largely the result of their physiology.

Anyway, just an opinion. No flames, please ;)

See, this is exactly the kind of thing I was wondering about- I just am bad at saying stuff LOL Everything you said made a lot of sense to me.

[lovelocs]

Exposing female impersonators who were in fact male on a city hockey team is one thing, but this case is far different and seems a bit too much.

Certain African tribes have exceptionally lanky builds and are supurb runners, probably the swiftest in the world. They can even catch caribou on the run. We all know that.

Why should anyone be surprised that a female African who has been into sports all her life can go into rigorous training and suddenly start setting running records? Its in her genes - and I don't mean her sexual identity ones.

This whole thing to me sounds like sour grapes by those not so gifted.

OK. So there are no caribou in Africa. OK.
And I don't know what sexual identity genes are.
In short, maybe this post could have been a bit better worded or researched.

So here goes.

"Certain Africans" seem to be the Kalenjins of Kenya. 1/2000th of world population, and a surprising number of world class distance runners.
Some e-forage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalenjin_people

http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant475/Papers/Beardsley.pdf
(a student paper, but worth reading)

http://www.playthegame.org/knowledge-bank/articles/from-tradition-to-the-olympics-running-cultures-in-mexico-and-kenya-949.html

It seems that genetics (lung capacity and lactic acid buildup in muscles), adaption to altitude, "running" culture, and a diet high in carbs all play a role in producing world class runners.

Other world class runners:

The San of the Kalahari (persistence hunting of a Kudu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo
Tarahumaras (Mexico) (They also run down deer. The practice is called persistence hunting)
There's a group in Japan, too, but I couldn't find their name.

I think what's important about the case of Semenya is that she is enforcing stereotypes. Black women have been seen in popular culture as being physically masculine, muscular, hard, and unfeminine. (Think some of more ignorant criticisms regarding Michele Obama's arms). And she also plays directly into the stereotypes of Blacks as superior athletes.

And yet, the truth is the truth. If she is a female, she has both the nature and the nurture to be a superior runner. And she stretches the boundaries of what an acceptable body looks like, and is capable of. I think that is what ties her case to the fat acceptance cause. She has to fight for her body to be seen as permissible, and so do we.

[butch]

OK. So there are no caribou in Africa. OK.
And I don't know what sexual identity genes are.
In short, maybe this post could have been a bit better worded or researched.

So here goes.

"Certain Africans" seem to be the Kalenjins of Kenya. 1/2000th of world population, and a surprising number of world class distance runners.
Some e-forage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalenjin_people

http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant475/Papers/Beardsley.pdf
(a student paper, but worth reading)

http://www.playthegame.org/knowledge-bank/articles/from-tradition-to-the-olympics-running-cultures-in-mexico-and-kenya-949.html

It seems that genetics (lung capacity and lactic acid buildup in muscles), adaption to altitude, "running" culture, and a diet high in carbs all play a role in producing world class runners.

Other world class runners:

The San of the Kalahari (persistence hunting of a Kudu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo
Tarahumaras (Mexico) (They also run down deer. The practice is called persistence hunting)
There's a group in Japan, too, but I couldn't find their name.

I think what's important about the case of Semenya is that she is enforcing stereotypes. Black women have been seen in popular culture as being physically masculine, muscular, hard, and unfeminine. (Think some of more ignorant criticisms regarding Michele Obama's arms). And she also plays directly into the stereotypes of Blacks as superior athletes.

And yet, the truth is the truth. If she is a female, she has both the nature and the nurture to be a superior runner. And she stretches the boundaries of what an acceptable body looks like, and is capable of. I think that is what ties her case to the fat acceptance cause. She has to fight for her body to be seen as permissible, and so do we.

Thanks for the information, lovelocs. I think your analysis at the end is spot on, too. It seems like many in the US are still are wrapped up in the idea that black women are either Sapphires, Mammies, or bush women of the Kalahari, and it needs to stop. It would be so interesting to have seen how this would have played out had Caster been African American, instead of South African.

The last line of your post-bravo! Welcome to the GLBTQ Forum, btw. :)

[katorade]

I think what's important about the case of Semenya is that she is enforcing stereotypes. Black women have been seen in popular culture as being physically masculine, muscular, hard, and unfeminine. (Think some of more ignorant criticisms regarding Michele Obama's arms). And she also plays directly into the stereotypes of Blacks as superior athletes.

And yet, the truth is the truth. If she is a female, she has both the nature and the nurture to be a superior runner. And she stretches the boundaries of what an acceptable body looks like, and is capable of. I think that is what ties her case to the fat acceptance cause. She has to fight for her body to be seen as permissible, and so do we.


I haven't really seen any non-complimentary remarks about Michelle Obama. I mean, there are work-outs targeted at getting Obamarms.:rolleyes: It actually surprises me to hear that there really are those critics out there because she's a truly beautiful woman. The most stylishly influential first lady since Jackie O, anyway. Her arms also aren't really that much more muscular than any white woman's I've seen that works out to the same extent.

I don't really think that Semenya is literally TRYING to put across any messages about her own androgyny. I think she just grew up in an environment where it wasn't paid any attention to, and her family didn't deem femininity as important, something that is going to be highly misunderstood when she enters a society that is largely driven on aesthetics.

I'm not saying she's wrong to not address her appearance, because red lipstick and a pair of heels isn't going to get you far in athletics, but I can't really fault the IAAF, either. She looks and sounds like a man! Even when compared to the stereotype that black women can appear masculine, she is an extreme, especially the voice. You really couldn't just take somebody's word for it in a case like this. It'd be like taking someone's word for it who is inhumanly strong that says they don't take steroids. If you're that far out of the norm, there's bound to be questions.

[exile in thighville]

if she agreed to show a doctor her vagina and have a press conference, that would be great (what the fuck is gender testing?), but if she refused - and she has every right to at her career's own risk - i'm not sure what to say. hell of a biopic if she turned out to be a man.

[ThatFatGirl]

This was in the headlines this morning. You Magazine, a South African publication, did a girlie-girl makeover on Caster and made her their cover girl.

http://www.you.co.za/images/ContentRecords/492009_124025_Main-pic.jpg

[goofy girl]

You know what's funny? Is I didn't even think she looked super masculine or anything until I saw the "girlie" pics

[LillyBBBW]

You know what's funny? Is I didn't even think she looked super masculine or anything until I saw the "girlie" pics

Yeah she looked female to me. And I'm from the simpleton's school of genetic testing. To me it seems a good gyno and an ultrasound would give us an answer in an hour or less. If they stopped testing gender ages ago due to ambiguity then why is Caster being dragged out and humiliated like this? Suddenly ambiguity is not ok anymore?

[mossystate]

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/10051660/Report:-Semenya-has-male,-female-sex-organs?GT1=39002

Whatever about the racing stuff...I just really feel for this young woman, and all she is facing, and will have to face.

[Jack Skellington]

It's a sensitive issue and I feel for those involved.

But to be totally fair to the other runners, Semenya's male levels of testorone does really give her an unfair advantage. But it's also very unlikely there was any intended dishonestly on her part so it's probably not really fair to take her medal away but at the same time, its still not really fair to the other runners. It's a tough call.

[Webmaster]

Now, I know I'm a bit naive about things, but I never realized that gender testing is performed on athletes in major (or any) competitions....


This is not new. In the 1960s there were a good number of Eastern Block athletes suspected of having an unfair athletic advantage due to gender uncertainties. Look up Tamara and Irina Press for prime examples. At the time that was viewed as part of East Germany's and Russia's efforts to rack up as many gold medals as they could to prove the supremacy of communism.

With regard to the current issue, I do not know about South African naming and hairstyle conventions, but to my eyes and ears, both probably contributed to the international uncertainty.

[LillyBBBW]

What a way to find out. I'm still a bit puzzled as to why suddenly this has become so important. They used to test everyone's gender for a while but stopped according to what I read. Gender seems a complicated issue which is why they stopped I presume and if that is the case why is this one different? She is a runner so if she wanted to compete, in which competition would it be appropropriate and eliminate the unfair advantage/disadvntage? I can't help but feel bad for her, she's worked so hard.

[mergirl]

It's a sensitive issue and I feel for those involved.

But to be totally fair to the other runners, Semenya's male levels of testorone does really give her an unfair advantage. But it's also very unlikely there was any intended dishonestly on her part so it's probably not really fair to take her medal away but at the same time, its still not really fair to the other runners. It's a tough call.

The thing is though, different women have different levels of testosterone in their bodies than each other anyway and at different times of the month and at various points in their lives. To make it truly equal it would have to be ensured that all people competing had the same amount of hormones in their bodies as each other, which would be impossible. In saying that, if someone has an inordinate amount of testosterone, this would need to be taken into consideration. It really then begs the question "What makes someone a woman?"

[Cors]

It is appalling that this has become so public.

The officials had plenty of time to scrutinise her gender and run the tests to determine if she is allowed to compete as a woman. It is not like they were unaware of her extraordinary performance, and it is pretty obvious that accusations, be it gender ambiguity or doping will come flooding in like they did.

[LillyBBBW]

It is appalling that this has become so public.

The officials had plenty of time to scrutinise her gender and run the tests to determine if she is allowed to compete as a woman. It is not like they were unaware of her extraordinary performance, and it is pretty obvious that accusations, be it gender ambiguity or doping will come flooding in like they did.

Castor has already been tested several times. She was tested twice in 2006. This is mob rule public humiliation, plain and simple.

[mergirl]

Castor has already been tested several times. She was tested twice in 2006. This is mob rule public humiliation, plain and simple.

Oh, i didn't realise she had already been tested. What on earth is the point of all this shit then?? How pathetic! :mad:

[Cors]

I didn't realise either. It doesn't make sense! Grrrrr. I wonder how this will go down and what kind of precedent this will set for intersex people.

I have a few intersex friends, but they look so gendered that you can't actually tell. I wonder if Castor would have escaped this scrutiny if she had looked less masculine, despite having an edge over her XX competitors.

[LillyBBBW]

Her father adamantly insists that this is not an old story -- that Castor has been tested several times, including two times in 2006. She has been teased, tested and challenged since she was a little girl. This just makes me sick to my stomach. Butch girls have been running and competing in sports since the dawn of mankind for goodness' sake. :mad: One bright light in all of this is how her countrymen have come out into the streets and rallied 'round to support her as is and call bulshit on this public flogging. It wasn't unfair when they let the other intersex competetors compete. In reality the kind of win she had is not something that has never happened before. It has happened in Men's running many times as well.

[Tooz]

It makes me so sad that people are still so threatened by people outside the prescribed notions of gender, and it seems, especially women.

[Jack Skellington]

The thing is though, different women have different levels of testosterone in their bodies than each other anyway and at different times of the month and at various points in their lives.

But the point is though that Semenya has male levels of testosterone which truly does give her an unfair advantage. According to the reports Semenya has testicles and no ovaries, so even if her gender identity is female, she still physically performs at a male level.

[Teleute]

Okay, there may be official reports by now that I haven't seen, but seriously: the article linked by Mossy DOES NOT have an official statement that Caster has testicles and no ovaries. News organizations have a nasty habit of using questions or bold statements in headlines that are entirely contradicted in the text below, because people only remember the question. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/opinion/27aamodt.html?_r=2) In the Lady Gaga thread a while back, someone linked an article that basically said "no seriously, she's a woman" as proof that she was secretly a man. :rolleyes:

Significantly higher amounts of testosterone WOULD give her a major advantage - this is why it's used for doping. Fluctuations within a woman's menstrual cycle or within the normal female range aren't that much of a change. However, since she's been tested before, this is all really ridiculous, and a clear attempt to shame her publically and stir up a great media story - gender ambiguity makes many people incredibly uncomfortable, so they flock to a story like this. Sucks for Caster - I'm impressed that she's standing up so well to all the scrutiny.

[HottiMegan]

I really hope she gets difinitive results one way or another. I feel for her. She's just a kid and the world is looking at her like she's wrong.

[Jack Skellington]

From Yahoo news via reuters.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090911/sp_nm/us_safrica_semenya_3

"South African President Jacob Zuma decried the invasion of Semenya's privacy and what he called the violation of her rights, although neither he nor Stofile denied the report."

I wonder if this means they all knew?

"The Telegraph report said tests had found Semenya had no womb or ovaries, but that she had internal testes, the male sexual organs which produce testosterone, and her levels of the hormone were three times that of a 'normal' female."

With testosterone levels that high, Semenya without a doubt would have an unfair advantage competing.

[katorade]

From Yahoo news via reuters.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090911/sp_nm/us_safrica_semenya_3

"South African President Jacob Zuma decried the invasion of Semenya's privacy and what he called the violation of her rights, although neither he nor Stofile denied the report."

I wonder if this means they all knew?

"The Telegraph report said tests had found Semenya had no womb or ovaries, but that she had internal testes, the male sexual organs which produce testosterone, and her levels of the hormone were three times that of a 'normal' female."

With testosterone levels that high, Semenya without a doubt would have an unfair advantage competing.

Yeah, but problem is she didn't cheat and was naturally born that way. I'm not sure there are rules about hermaphroditic properties.

[LillyBBBW]

From Yahoo news via reuters.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090911/sp_nm/us_safrica_semenya_3

"South African President Jacob Zuma decried the invasion of Semenya's privacy and what he called the violation of her rights, although neither he nor Stofile denied the report."

I wonder if this means they all knew?

"The Telegraph report said tests had found Semenya had no womb or ovaries, but that she had internal testes, the male sexual organs which produce testosterone, and her levels of the hormone were three times that of a 'normal' female."

With testosterone levels that high, Semenya without a doubt would have an unfair advantage competing.

Or the reason they didn't deny the report could be they don't know, having not seen it. They have however maintained all along that Caster is female and has been from birth with a certificate to prove it. It seems unlikely to me that any gynocologist even in the most remote third world outpost can administer a physical exam on a sixteen year old and not notice the absence of a womb. I'm also skeptical of the theory that the whole South African government has deliberately perpetrated a scam. It seems to me they are anxious for the results of the tests just like everyone else is and would rather wait than feed this media monster.

[LillyBBBW]

Okay, there may be official reports by now that I haven't seen, but seriously: the article linked by Mossy DOES NOT have an official statement that Caster has testicles and no ovaries. News organizations have a nasty habit of using questions or bold statements in headlines that are entirely contradicted in the text below, because people only remember the question. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/opinion/27aamodt.html?_r=2) In the Lady Gaga thread a while back, someone linked an article that basically said "no seriously, she's a woman" as proof that she was secretly a man. :rolleyes:

Significantly higher amounts of testosterone WOULD give her a major advantage - this is why it's used for doping. Fluctuations within a woman's menstrual cycle or within the normal female range aren't that much of a change. However, since she's been tested before, this is all really ridiculous, and a clear attempt to shame her publically and stir up a great media story - gender ambiguity makes many people incredibly uncomfortable, so they flock to a story like this. Sucks for Caster - I'm impressed that she's standing up so well to all the scrutiny.

The more I think on it I'm inclined to believe that the heinous crime Semenya is guilty of is brazen cold cocked cockiness. She's muscular, mannish looking, was suspect and has already garnered a reputation for being a force on the track. The moment she set foot in Berlin she was shunned and mistreated by everyone according to all accounts. The mistreatment coupled with her heightened levels of testosterone more than likely created a ripe atmosphere for scowling, chest beating and showiness designed to humble and humiliate all detractors as much as she's capable as an act of defiance and resolve. The photos of her pose once the race was won were telling. To be honest with you if I were a runner in this race who suspected there was some trickery going on I would be miffed and want to cut her down to size too. For her victory lap not a sound could be heard. No one applauded or cheered at all. Her parents mentioned in an interview that they raised her to be the type to not let what people say destroy her which I would imagine is a good tool in helping her stand in the face of all of this. Although... she was slated for another race this weekend and dropped out citing "illness" according to reports. Tolls get taken no matter how strong we are I'm afraid.

[mergirl]

I wonder if this level of negitive scrutiny would have occurred had she been white and from the UK or America....or maby i'm just paranoid.

[LillyBBBW]

I wonder if this level of negitive scrutiny would have occurred had she been white and from the UK or America....or maby i'm just paranoid.

You and a lot of other people. Honestly her features are not uncommon among black people at all. Full features have been the subject of course joking and parody dating back years. The attention to her features comes off as being highly ignorant and inflammatory prompting South Africa's president to proclaim, "Semenya is NOT European." It's hard to not take offense to all of this. I have a deep voice too and in some ways I'm still considered less feminine looking due to my features. I could go ON about that though so let me stop here. :mad:

[Jack Skellington]

I wonder if this level of negitive scrutiny would have occurred had she been white and from the UK or America....or maby i'm just paranoid.

Erika Schinegger was a champion Austrian skier with the same condition. Gender testing for the 1968 Olympics revealed she, like Semenya, was intersexed and had internal male sexual organs. Erika then had surgery to become Erik and later fathered two children. Erik also voluntarily gave Erika's 1966 gold medal to the runner up who he was quoted as calling the "true winner."

[Jack Skellington]

I forgot to add, there is a history in the Olympics and sports of controversy over the gender of female athletes. Some turned out to be intersexed like Erika Schinegger and like Conrad mentioned others were from the concerns of Germany and Russia doping their female athetes.

Heidi Krieger was German shot putter in the 80s who was, unbeknowed to her, being doped by her coaches with incredibly high levels of anabolic steroids under the guise of vitamin pills. The doses were so high it effectively caused her to go through a drug induced sex change. Heidi was so physically changed she felt she had no choice but to finish the sex change and become male.

A couple of quotes from Heidi now Andreas:

"For me the tragedy is still that I had no choice in determining my sexual identity, the drugs decided my fate,"

"The thing is, they killed Heidi."

Gender testing in sports is probably a necessary evil. It keeps women from having to competed against those that are physically at a male level and hopefully prevent another tragedy like Heidi.

[Melian]

I forgot to add, there is a history in the Olympics and sports of controversy over the gender of female athletes. Some turned out to be intersexed like Erika Schinegger and like Conrad mentioned others were from the concerns of Germany and Russia doping their female athetes.

Heidi Krieger was German shot putter in the 80s who was, unbeknowed to her, being doped by her coaches with incredibly high levels of anabolic steroids under the guise of vitamin pills. The doses were so high it effectively caused her to go through a drug induced sex change. Heidi was so physically changed she felt she had no choice but to finish the sex change and become male.

A couple of quotes from Heidi now Andreas:

"For me the tragedy is still that I had no choice in determining my sexual identity, the drugs decided my fate,"

"The thing is, they killed Heidi."

Gender testing in sports is probably a necessary evil. It keeps women from having to competed against those that are physically at a male level and hopefully prevent another tragedy like Heidi.

Hm....I had no idea that the issue of intersex athletes had come up that much in the past. You'd think that, after the first time, the Olympic committee would create some kind of regulation/classification to make things easier for everyone - some biological delineation of "male" and "female" competitors, and guidelines for dealing with individuals who cannot be placed in either category. Might prevent some embarassment and outrage....

[mergirl]

Erika Schinegger was a champion Austrian skier with the same condition. Gender testing for the 1968 Olympics revealed she, like Semenya, was intersexed and had internal male sexual organs. Erika then had surgery to become Erik and later fathered two children. Erik also voluntarily gave Erika's 1966 gold medal to the runner up who he was quoted as calling the "true winner."
See, i didn't realise that conclusive results had been provided yet for Caster. The news 10 hours ago said that they were still awaiting results and that the source that claimed she was a hermaphrodite was wrong. I'm with Melian, you would think if something like this happened 40 years ago, better testing which would cause least humiliation should really be in place.
Anyway, i don't think they have 'proved' she is a hermaphrodite yet... so this scrutiny is very strange and i believe is causing a fair amount of outrage in Africa. Oh, also, Caster herself is recieving psychiatric help at the moment. Poor show all round.

[LillyBBBW]

See, i didn't realise that conclusive results had been provided yet for Caster. The news 10 hours ago said that they were still awaiting results and that the source that claimed she was a hermaphrodite was wrong. I'm with Melian, you would think if something like this happened 40 years ago, better testing which would cause least humiliation should really be in place.
Anyway, i don't think they have 'proved' she is a hermaphrodite yet... so this scrutiny is very strange and i believe is causing a fair amount of outrage in Africa. Oh, also, Caster herself is recieving psychiatric help at the moment. Poor show all round.

I'm glad that she is receiving help and support in this way. The next few weeks are going to be tough by any standard and she will have a hard road ahead of her regardless of what that test result is. I wish I could Rep the South African government for making sure Caster is taken care of. Guess you'll have to do mergirl. ;)

[gangstadawg]

But the point is though that Semenya has male levels of testosterone which truly does give her an unfair advantage. According to the reports Semenya has testicles and no ovaries, so even if her gender identity is female, she still physically performs at a male level.

i have to agree.

[joswitch]

I too agree that it's unfair to female athletes to compete against people with male levels of T.. I also agree that the sports authorities have made a right pig's ear of the issue and have been hugely insensitive to Caster... Her sex (as opposed to her gender identity) has been doubted by observers for years, more so for her body's "male" appearance than her face (broad shoulders, straight torso, narrow hips.. contrast with say either of the Williams sisters or the late Flo Jo.. ).. And she has competed at a world class level before... Given previous issues in times past (e.g. Erik/a) surely Caster could and should have been tested *before* her first competition at this level?! ...Quietly & without damaging & stressful (to her) media furore.. And once tested- surely that should stand as certification for all further competitions? Rather than her being subject to repeated tests (which I understand has been the case)... I'd like to think that maybe there's a silver lining to this (and the Lady GaGa's maybe penis blahblah).. That maybe intersex people will get greater recognition.. As part of the natural diversity that is humanity - rather than a "problem" to be "fixed" by doctors... And perhaps the attitudes that lead to intersex babies routinely being surgically reassigned to one or other of the majority sexes might be re-examined... But I gotta say it doesn't look hopeful.. :(

[Geektastic1]

I have deliberately stayed away from this discussion, but I can't keep quiet anymore. My heart really goes out to Caster, whether she is intersexed or not. She is a fantastic athlete, and deserves to keep her medal, period. This scrutiny is a bunch of sexist (and, like Lilly says, probably racist) bullshit. She should not be treated this way.

For those who think it would be unfair for an intersexed woman to compete with "normal" women, here's an idea--why not have athletic competition categories be based on performance and strength instead of sex? That would actually be more realistic than dividing by sex categories, and would not exclude talented athletes who fall outside the binary sex categories. Excluding intersex people from performing athletically because they can't fit easily into a gendered category is a lot like excluding fat people from theaters because they can't fit in the seats. There are a lot of commonalities between intersexed (and transsexual), disabled, and fat bodies and how they are pathologized, discriminated against, not accomodated, and made invisible.

For a perspective from an intersexed person who writes better than I do, read this commentary:

http://intersexroadshow.blogspot.com/2009/08/caster-semenya-intersex-perspective.html

[katorade]

I have deliberately stayed away from this discussion, but I can't keep quiet anymore. My heart really goes out to Caster, whether she is intersexed or not. She is a fantastic athlete, and deserves to keep her medal, period. This scrutiny is a bunch of sexist (and, like Lilly says, probably racist) bullshit. She should not be treated this way.

For those who think it would be unfair for an intersexed woman to compete with "normal" women, here's an idea--why not have athletic competition categories be based on performance and strength instead of sex? That would actually be more realistic than dividing by sex categories, and would not exclude talented athletes who fall outside the binary sex categories. Excluding intersex people from performing athletically because they can't fit easily into a gendered category is a lot like excluding fat people from theaters because they can't fit in the seats. There are a lot of commonalities between intersexed (and transsexual), disabled, and fat bodies and how they are pathologized, discriminated against, not accomodated, and made invisible.

For a perspective from an intersexed person who writes better than I do, read this commentary:

http://intersexroadshow.blogspot.com/2009/08/caster-semenya-intersex-perspective.html


Uh, because no matter which way you cut it, men and women are vastly physiologically different. It would be incredibly unfair and stupidly unrealistic to expect women to perform to the same athletic level as men.

The reason there is no place for intersexed people is because that's also unrealistic. There's what, a less than 5% chance of this happening? There's absolutely no reason to make a category for it. If there WAS increased interest then there could be a completely different branch where they could compete with like-abled people, but as it is a woman with mass quantities of testosterone has an advantage over women and a disadvantage in competition with men. Period.

[Geektastic1]

The reason there is no place for intersexed people is because that's also unrealistic. There's what, a less than 5% chance of this happening? There's absolutely no reason to make a category for it. If there WAS increased interest then there could be a completely different branch where they could compete with like-abled people, but as it is a woman with mass quantities of testosterone has an advantage over women and a disadvantage in competition with men. Period.

No need for another category. Just let people of like abilities compete with each other. Is that really so radical? Most physiologically typical males would probably end up competing with each other, and likewise, most physiologically typical females would end up competing with each other, too. Some intersex people would compete with physiologically typical females, other with physiologcally typical males. Some males would compete with some females. People in general have a wide range of anatomies and physiologies, and there is a lot more in-between than anyone might think.

Now, I doubt that this is going to happen anytime soon. I'm just pointing out that there could be another (and I think fairer and more accurate) way to categorize athletes, by ability, rather than sex. Yeah, yeah, dream on, I know.

By the way, intersexed people do compete in sports, all the time. Most aren't undergoing the same kind of scrutiny that Caster is.

[mergirl]

.. but as it is a woman with mass quantities of testosterone has an advantage over women and a disadvantage in competition with men. Period.

They are saying she is cheating because she is 'not a woman'. I wonder if it turns out that she is a 'woman' but has larger quantities of testosterone than most women, then what?
At what point does a woman chemically stop being a woman?
The reason i say 'woman', is because this also opens up a whole can of worms as to what a 'woman' is.
Personally, in all cases i think if someone 'feels' they are a woman then they are, though i guess this cannnot cut the mustard in proffessional athletics.
Also i DO believe the coverage of this story IS both racist and sexist. The media yet again is trying to tell us what being a woman is. Blonde blue eyed with an hourglass shape perhaps, Soft spoken, with a high voice and yeilding non competetive nature? This situation goes beyond what is fair, it goes into what is right!

[joswitch]

@Geektastic - great link! Gets to the heart of the matter- i.e. that male/female is insufficient to describe the sexual variety of humans in reality.. One author offered up the idea of 5 anatomically sex defined categories m/f/herms/merms/ferms ... Altho that's still divisions of a spectrum.. At least better? than current situation where intersex people are defined out of (social) existence.. @Katorade - 5%? Source? If true thats more than enough to support an intersex athletic division.. BUT only assuming that society can be made to grow the fuck up and face the truth of the variety that is humanity with acceptance instead of fear&hatred.. A big ask I know.. :(

[katorade]

@Geektastic - great link! Gets to the heart of the matter- i.e. that male/female is insufficient to describe the sexual variety of humans in reality.. One author offered up the idea of 5 anatomically sex defined categories m/f/herms/merms/ferms ... Altho that's still divisions of a spectrum.. At least better? than current situation where intersex people are defined out of (social) existence.. @Katorade - 5%? Source? If true thats more than enough to support an intersex athletic division.. BUT only assuming that society can be made to grow the fuck up and face the truth of the variety that is humanity with acceptance instead of fear&hatred.. A big ask I know.. :(


5% was me harboring a guess. After doing some digging, it's actually far less than a 1% chance. If you're talking specifically about women born with male gonads, it's a 1 in 83,000 chance. Sorry, I don't have the source at the moment as my SO looked it up, but I'm sure I can get it later.

It would have nothing to do with fear and hatred. Having intersexed sports would pretty much be the ruination of competitions as we know it. My SO said last night that "it would just promote sandbagging", and I'm inclined to agree, especially considering the way a lot of sports are set up. Not to mention it would open another Pandora's box of equality issues. If they just started with runners, the debate would inevitably move to other sports arenas.

Also, as a female athlete, I would be awfully down-trodden if I was forced to compete with men who performed on my level. You'd have the fastest woman in the world running along side a mediocre guy. That's not me being sexist, either. Men are built to out-perform women in basically all athletic competition. The fastest man in the world is almost a full second faster than the fastest woman. The strongest man in the world will always be ridiculously stronger than the strongest woman. You know what, though? I don't have a freaking problem with that. It's simply how we're built.

What I would rather see is female athletes getting some actual recognition in the world of sports. That would just be stripped even further if their was mixed-sex competition.

[Tad]

They are saying she is cheating because she is 'not a woman'. I wonder if it turns out that she is a 'woman' but has larger quantities of testosterone than most women, then what?
At what point does a woman chemically stop being a woman?
The reason i say 'woman', is because this also opens up a whole can of worms as to what a 'woman' is.
Personally, in all cases i think if someone 'feels' they are a woman then they are, though i guess this cannnot cut the mustard in proffessional athletics.
Also i DO believe the coverage of this story IS both racist and sexist. The media yet again is trying to tell us what being a woman is.

I know that for levels of red blood cells in athletes in cycling, and I think levels of certain other naturally occuring substances that can boost performance in other sports they do have some sort of limit. Although I think in the cycling if you can prove that over a long period of time your blood cell level is that high you are allowed to compete (the issue there is blood doping--extracting some of your blood a month before the competition and re-injecting the plasma shortly before you compete). I'm sure that there are rules that could be adapted to testosterone.

I suspect that part of the problem is that hormones are naturally varying, between people and over time. That latter one makes it hard to say exactly what someone's level is, I'd expect.

And I agree about the coverage being racist and sexist, at least a lot of it.

As a largely off-topic aside, testosterone does all sorts of things to the body and mind. Testosterone levels have long been found to correlate with aggressiveness, now it seems they also correlate with risk taking behavior, at least according to this article in the economist:
http://www.economist.com/sciencetechnology/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14301951

ETA: "The International Association of Athletics Federations, which ordered the gender tests, refused to confirm or deny the reports. In a statement, the IAAF said it is reviewing the test results and will issue a final decision in November." So no official word for a couple of months....I hope that doesn't mean the gossip mills keep churning until then.

[joswitch]

@Katorade.. Sorry hard to be clear on phone (thumb cramps).. I meant fear & hatred prevents most intersex people from living openly as such in society.. That would have to change before they could have their own divisions in sports.. Which to be clear - I meant separately from both men and women.. I don't know even if in an open and accepting society there'd be enough intersex folks to form such a division though.. To be honest I think the way intersex folks are erased from social existence is a WAY bigger deal than whether and how they get to compete in sport... But that could be cos I don't care much for sport..

[LillyBBBW]

Well the word is out and still nobody's talking. She gets to keep her medals though.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/sports/20runner.html

[gangstadawg]

Well the word is out and still nobody's talking. She gets to keep her medals though.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/sports/20runner.html

i totally forgotten about her. so what will she be allowed to compete as?

[Teleute]

Interesting. It sounds like she can run as a woman, although the article is certainly making it out to sound like she's intersexed; then again, the media is likely to do that, because it's more interesting than "no, she really was a biological female after all". I'm glad her privacy is being a little more respected, though.

[joswitch]

I can't register with NY times on my phone! :( Would someone cut and paste the article please?

[Cors]

Here you go! I, too am glad that her privacy is being respected now.


Track Officials and Runner Reach Agreement in Gender Inquiry

By JERÉ LONGMAN
Published: November 19, 2009

One of the most public and controversial cases of sex verification in sports has apparently been resolved, at least in part, but the answers to some important questions have not been made public.
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Fabrice Coffrini/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

A woman protested outside the International Olympic Committee’s headquarters in Switzerland on Thursday.

South Africa’s sports ministry said in a statement Thursday that Caster Semenya, 18, the world champion 800-meter runner, had reached an agreement with track and field’s world governing body to keep the gold medal and prize money she won at the world championships in August.

Most notably, however, the sports ministry did not say whether Semenya would be allowed to continue to compete as a woman. The statement also did not disclose the results of sex-verification tests she had undergone.

“As such, there will be no public announcement of what the panel of scientists has found,” the sports ministry said. “We urge all South Africans and other people to respect this professional, ethical and moral way of doing things.”

Semenya, who attends the University of Pretoria, could not be reached for comment. Her coach, Michael Seme, said in a telephone interview from Pretoria that Semenya “is going to compete as a woman and will remain a woman until she dies.”

Asked whether Semenya had been cleared to compete as a woman without further testing or surgery, Seme said: “I don’t want to talk about that. The only thing I want to say is that I’m happy Caster will retain her title as the fastest 800-meter runner in the world. The most important thing when you are an athlete is to get your medal.”

Disputes in sports over athletes’ sex are rare, and perhaps never has such a case been as volatile as the one that emerged at the world championships, when it became apparent how unprepared her sport was to handle cases of athletes who may have both male and female characteristics.

As Semenya posted the fastest time of the year in the 800 meters, track officials said they had begun sex verification testing on her, but South African officials said that they were blindsided by the claims and insulted that officials disclosed such private information.

In September, Leonard Chuene, president of Athletics South Africa, apologized for denying knowledge of the sex tests done on Semenya in his country, saying he had hoped to protect her privacy.

After Semenya won the world title, international track officials ordered more tests, saying questions had been raised about her muscular physique and drastic improvement.

Chuene said that tests had been conducted at a Pretoria hospital on Aug. 7 at the behest of the I.A.A.F. Chuene has said that despite medical advice from one of South Africa’s top sports medical officials, he refused to withdraw Semenya from the competition in Berlin because the results of the tests were not yet known.

Athletics South Africa said last month that it had suspended Chuene and the rest of his board.

Sex-determination testing was once obligatory for female athletes at the Olympics because of persistent allegations that some competitors were not really women. Sanctions are very rare. One case came at the 2006 Asian Games, where a middle-distance runner, Santhi Soundarajan of India, was stripped of a silver medal after failing a verification test.

The sex-determination testing was phased out in 1999 because of concerns about inequities. The testing is now reserved for specific cases in Olympic sports.

The testing done on Semenya takes weeks to complete. It requires a physical medical evaluation, and includes reports from a gynecologist, an endocrinologist, a psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and an expert on gender. The effort, coordinated by Dr. Harold Adams, a South African on the I.A.A.F. medical panel, was conducted at hospitals in Berlin and South Africa.

It is unclear what the exact threshold is, in the eyes of the I.A.A.F., for a female athlete being ineligible to compete as a woman.

“The implications of the scientific findings on Caster’s health and life going forward will be analyzed by Caster and she will make her own decision on her future,” the sports ministry said. “Whatever she decides, ours is to respect her decision.”

Track and field’s Monaco-based governing body, known by its initials as the I.A.A.F., did not immediately respond to the statement made by the South African sports ministry. The statement had been expected to be issued next week.

The South African sports ministry said it had asked for an apology from the I.A.A.F., which denied leaking information about Semenya, but responded, “It is deeply regrettable that information of a confidential matter entered the public domain.”

Makhenkesi Stofile, South Africa’s sports minister, described Semenya as excited about the apparent resolution of her case, according to the South African Press Association.

“She will roll with the punches,” Stofile told the press association. “In my view, Caster Semenya’s future is in her hands. She can decide to run as a woman, which she is.”

[joswitch]

Here you go! I, too am glad that her privacy is being respected now.

Thanks Cors! Yeah, looks like they're showing a bit more respect to her which is nice, if a bit late! Looks like she'll get to continue competing as a woman - and given the stringency of the tests involved - maybe there'll be an end to the media snark at her?

[HottiMegan]

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-semenyacleared
She has been cleared to race! :)

[LillyBBBW]

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-semenyacleared
She has been cleared to race! :)

AWESOME!!! :)