*warning* Potentially offensive political post

[JoyJoy]

The following was sent to my email, and I feel compelled to share. Let me preface it by saying that I have no problem with people who settle in America and strive to do what it takes to fit in (such as learn the language, etc) just as one would have to do in another country. Let me also say that while I am not a fanatical patriot, I am American, and recent events have me highly annoyed. Having worked in inner-city Dallas with families who came to our country, immediately got onto welfare and refused to work, refused to learn the language and encouraged their children not to learn the language, and sent much of their income back to their native country, the fact that they get upset when we ask them to come into our country legally and contribute as most of us do is unacceptable to me. I realize that my experience is minute in the grand view, and this is in no way meant to be a generality...just my very limited viewpoint. Consider it a rant. However, I feel the man who wrote this article makes some great points.



"This is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper.

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However...... the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct! " crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans...... we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan.. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women.......on Christian principles.............founded this nation..... and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home.........because
God is part of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so! But once you are done complaining....... whining...... and griping....... about our flag....... our pledge...... our national motto........or our way of life....I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other Great American Freedom.......

THE RIGHT TO LEAVE. "

[Jack Skellington]

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan.. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women.......on Christian principles.............founded this nation

That's a common misconception. The USA was founded on the concept of religious freedom. The founding fathers wanted to create a secular culture free from the coruption and control of the church of England.

Also, the founding fathers, as well as the first five presidents, were Deists. Meaning they believed in God as in higher power and not God or Jesus as literally depicted in the Christian Bible.

[JoyJoy]

That's a common misconception. The USA was founded on the concept of religious freedom. The founding fathers wanted to create a secular culture free from the coruption and control of the church of England.

Also, the founding fathers, as well as the first five presidents, were Deists. Meaning they believed in God as in higher power and not God or Jesus as literally depicted in the Christian Bible.

You are correct...I'm glad you pointed that out....but that makes this man's point ring true even more, even though he got the details wrong. Since America was founded on the basis of religious freedom, that phrase should be placed prominently wherever possible. Those who don't want to see it have the freedom to ignore it or avoid it.

[moonvine]

You are correct...I'm glad you pointed that out....but that makes this man's point ring true even more, even though he got the details wrong. Since America was founded on the basis of religious freedom, that phrase should be placed prominently wherever possible. Those who don't want to see it have the freedom to ignore it or avoid it.

I have no problem with that, as long as it isn't in any government institutions. There's this little Constitutional thingie called the separation of church and state...

If you want to display it on your private property or whatever, though, go for it. Same as "In Allah We Trust" or "In Spongebob We Trust" or anything else you want.

[JoyJoy]

I have no problem with that, as long as it isn't in any government institutions. There's this little Constitutional thingie called the separation of church and state...

If you want to display it on your private property or whatever, though, go for it. Same as "In Allah We Trust" or "In Spongebob We Trust" or anything else you want.

When you first posted this, my gut reaction was to say that posting the National Motto has nothing to do with the do with the First Amendment, since it doesn't involve the making of laws, establishment of a religion, or violate anyone's rights to believe what they wish. It's just a statement that the men who founded our country trusted in God, not that everyone who lives here must trust God or even believe in Him.

"U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I still believe that, to a point.

However, in researching the issue, I found this (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_gov_motto.htm)article, which makes some valid points, and I learned some things I was not aware of, which are repeated here (http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml), such as the fact that "In God we trust" was placed on our money by a member of the National Reform Movement, James Pollock, who "wanted the United States to become an official Christian theocracy" and manipulated congress to amend a law allowing him to dictate what went on US currency. It was made the national motto in 1956, allegedly as a counter to communism. Previous to this, *E Pluribus Unum (http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/unum.html)* (Out of Many, One) was the national motto. (which I personally prefer)

Assuming the articles I read are accurate, I have a problem with the process in which the line came to be our national motto, which itself seems to be a violation of the 1st amendment, and in direct contrast to the religious freedom America was founded on. I can see that I need to do more research on this issue.

However, this issue doesn't dilute my feelings on my original post. They're two seperate things.

[1300 Class]

came to our country, immediately got onto welfare and refused to work, refused to learn the language and encouraged their children not to learn the language, and sent much of their income back to their native country, the fact that they get upset when we ask them to come into our country legally and contribute as most of us do is unacceptable to me.

I agree with you.

[GWARrior]

In God We Trust is not *my* motto

God is not a part of *my* culture

Sure we speak English, but maybe we should focus on learning other languages. It can be very beneficial.


To be perfectly honest, patriots today piss me off. WHat happened to proudly displaying our nations flag BEFORE Sept. 11th? My family has had our flag up since the day we moved to this house, 16 years ago.

But we get bombed and attacked and suddenly everyone rushes out to buy up all the cheap plastic flags they can find, to be "patriotic".

And worst of all, people are under the stupid assumption that being being patriotic means listening to and blindly following everything our president says.

Sorry. just a rant.

[love dubh]

[FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3][B]with families who came to our country, immediately got onto welfare and refused to work, refused to learn the language and encouraged their children not to learn the language, and sent much of their income back to their native country


I agree with this as well... for the most part. However, many immigrants send their income back to the home country because (most times) it is the patriarch who has left, and it was he who earned the family's income. So, I believe many of them send money home so that the entire family can join him in his new home. I do disagree, vehemently, with new immigrants refusing to learn the new language. Perhaps if it is a very elderly grandparent, then it's acceptable. But a youth, and anyone in their prime, is perfectly capable of taking language courses and getting a basic grasp on the language. When I went to France, I didn't expect them to speak English. I knew that many French did, but regardless, I stumbled/massacred their language. And I truly believe that natives appreciate and will aid you when you TRY to speak the language.

The welfare thing pisses me off to NO END, because my mother, an immigrant, who worked the equivelant of two jobs all of her life, was DENIED welfare when she lost her job for three years. The system failed those it was meant to help! IT WAS RIDICULOUS, but the woman at the welfare bureau said it herself, "if you were a new immigrant, or a young black woman with three kids, you would have had no problem getting welfare." So, in her case, it was part racism, part immigrant status.

And replying to GWAR, this faux-patriotism and the blind following is ridiculous. It's reflected in our popular culture. Any criticism of the government warrents you a chastisement of "WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?!" And musicians, who USED TO be the first to criticize the government (look at CCR's "Fortunate Son" & "Bad Moon Rising," Dead Prez's " 'They' Schools", Billie Holiday's "Strange Fruit," Crosby, Young, Stills & Nash's "Ohio").... but now they're too busy writing vapid songs to fill their own pockets.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Joy-Joy -

Every time I see one of these things circulated by e-mail, I search for it on the Snopes "Urban Legend" web site. Sure enough, it's listed:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/american.htm

Some of the things in there are true - some are not. But it's been circulated for about five years now.

[EbonySSBBW]

This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans...... we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

Hmmmm...to me, American culture=Anglo culture, therefore, every person of color must be considered an immigrant. Black culture is different than "American culture." I am a Black American and I embrace each part of that. I love getting together with my family and celebrating that. I appreciate the fact that I live in a country with so many freedoms, however, some of the things that this country was built on are not impressive to me. I'm not one who will say, I love this country, it's the best country in the world. If this country is the best then why are we ranked #24 in Education? Why are so many women and children abused everyday (the fact that it's better here than other places doesn't make that ok)? Why can't a fat person buy a plane ticket and get a seat that is wide enough for his or her ass? Does that mean that I should leave? No! Instead I dedicated my life to trying to work on these issues. America is a great country with many wonderful opportunities but I think that we need to get over ourselves!

[MissToodles]

You need to be a naturalized citzen for at least five years to receive food stamps/welfare unless you're a political refugee from a country such as Haiti or pregnant (you don't need a social security number to receive wic or medicaid if you're preggers.) Believe it or not, welfare even for people born here is not easy to obtain and is not doled out so easily! There are specific forumlas that are used to figure out these things. I only know this because I've known people who worked for welfare and food stamps in nyc.

[EbonySSBBW]

You need to be a naturalized citzen for at least five years to receive food stamps/welfare unless you're a political refugee from a country such as Haiti or pregnant (you don't need a social security number to receive wic or medicaid if you're preggers.) Believe it or not, welfare even for people born here is not easy to obtain and is not doled out so easily! There are specific forumlas that are used to figure out these things. I only know this because I've known people who worked for welfare and food stamps in nyc.

That is definitely true. There are so many assumptions made when it comes to the welfare system. Thank you for pointing that out MissToodles. As I see it, the immigrants who come here illegally end up working the jobs that no one else wants and getting paid hardly anything for it. Isn't it sad that even that is more desirable to them than what they have in their own countries?

[TheSadeianLinguist]

Wrong. Many of the founding fathers/fuckers were deists. :) Sorry.

[MisticalMisty]

Ok, this country wasn't "found." It was here..already and those pesky anglo-saxons STOLE IT..lol

So, unless you are full blood native...get your ass back in the boat and go back to the mother country :D

LMFAO

[djewell]

My great grandparents came to america from Poland. I do not feel like an american. I feel like a Jew. But, if america wants to have me, than i will gladly pay my taxes and work hard. but i have absolutely no "patriotism" towards the USA. if theres one thing jews have learned over the years, its that any country can go sour on us very fast. look at spain. look at poland. look at iran. So, while i'm really willing to do my part as an american citizen, i do not HAVE to love it.

furthermore, i would like to say that america does not have much of a culture. the culture that is currently developing is very juvenile and will hopefully change in the near future.

[CleverBomb]

Another thing to keep in mind is that unauthorized immigrants pay taxes (at the least, sales tax), and if they're on payrolls under false documentation, will never be able to collect the benefits from the social security and FICA taxes deducted from their paychecks.

And as far as language issues go, let's be realistic here. Exactly how much of an inconvenience is it that non-English-speakers are here in this country? When was the last time you or anyone you know (in America) was unable to accomplish something because they only spoke English?
Much of the English-Only movement is an almost-overt means of disenfranchising a category of people who will continue to be here as long as there are jobs for them.

Don't get me started on the New Pharisees and the Last Refuge Scoundrels...

--Rusty

[Ryan]

Ok, this country wasn't "found." It was here..already and those pesky anglo-saxons STOLE IT..lol

This continent was here already. This country - The United States of America - was founded by a bunch of guys now known as "The Founding Fathers".

So, unless you are full blood native...get your ass back in the boat and go back to the mother country :D

The "natives" came here from somewhere else as well, and therefore are no more native than anyone else who was born here.

[Ryan]

My great grandparents came to america from Poland. I do not feel like an american. I feel like a Jew. But, if america wants to have me, than i will gladly pay my taxes and work hard. but i have absolutely no "patriotism" towards the USA. if theres one thing jews have learned over the years, its that any country can go sour on us very fast. look at spain. look at poland. look at iran. So, while i'm really willing to do my part as an american citizen, i do not HAVE to love it.

That's a bad attitude to have, in my opinion. Things can go bad for anyone, anywhere, at any time. Why worry about the infinite number of bad things that could possibly happen if it keeps you from getting more enjoyment out of life?

[Fuzzy]

Divisions

That's all this country has done in my generation. Today we are Red vs. Blue (http://www.redvsblue.com), White vs. Non-White, Christian vs. Non-Christian, Conservative vs. Everybody Else, Neighbor vs. Neighbor, Vegan vs. Carnivore, etc vs etc.

And I don't see this getting any better. It will probably be Civil War before my generation is done with it.

[Littleghost]

The "natives" came here from somewhere else as well, and therefore are no more native than anyone else who was born here.
So by your logic does that mean that Africans are the only natives in the world? :confused: This could get messy.

Savage heathen,
--Littleghost

[CleverBomb]

That's a bad attitude to have, in my opinion. Things can go bad for anyone, anywhere, at any time. Why worry about the infinite number of bad things that could possibly happen if it keeps you from getting more enjoyment out of life?
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty; power is ever stealing from the many to the few." -Wendell Phillips (expanding on Jefferson's famous quotation)

[Ryan]

So by your logic does that mean that Africans are the only natives in the world?

Not necessarily.

[GWARrior]

So by your logic does that mean that Africans are the only natives in the world? :confused: This could get messy.

Savage heathen,
--Littleghost

I thought life came from the Fertile Crescent.

School seems so long ago :doh:

[CleverBomb]

So by your logic does that mean that Africans are the only natives in the world?
Not necessarily.
Of course not -- Adam and Eve looked Scandanavian.

[Fuzzy]

Of course not -- Adam and Eve looked Scandanavian.

According to the artwork of the Scandanavians. They could've been Mongolian. ;)

[CleverBomb]

According to the artwork of the Scandanavians. They could've been Mongolian. ;)
(Sigh)
All that work with the QUOTE tags and I go and leave the SNARK tag open.

-Rusty

[Ryan]

Of course not -- Adam and Eve looked Scandanavian.

I don't believe in Adam and Eve. What was the point of that comment?

If I remember my physical anthropology correctly, our pre-human ancestors had migrated to many places outside of Africa before eventually evolving into what we know as human beings (Homo sapiens sapiens). Assuming my memory is accurate, modern humans can be "native" to many places other than Africa.

[Thrifty McGriff]

I don't believe in Adam and Eve. What was the point of that comment?

If I remember my physical anthropology correctly, our pre-human ancestors had migrated to many places outside of Africa before eventually evolving into what we know as human beings (Homo sapiens sapiens). Assuming my memory is accurate, modern humans can be "native" to many places other than Africa.

The "natives" were here first, and were more "native" to the land than European settlers were, as I see it. I don't believe in imperialism, even though our nations are based on it, so as far as I'm concerned, North America should still solely be in "native" hands.

But I am a crazy idealist. And idealism just gets scoffed at these days.

Oh, and what this particular post I quoted said is what I have also learned with regards to the migratory patterns out of Africa and so on.

[Ryan]

The "natives" were here first, and were more "native" to the land than European settlers were, as I see it. I don't believe in imperialism, even though our nations are based on it, so as far as I'm concerned, North America should still solely be in "native" hands.

Hypocrisy test: Do you believe that Europe should be solely in white hands?

[Paul]

JoyJoy,

I believe is comes down to what type of society you want to build:

--Should it be a "melting pot" there is one culture and all must surrender their culture to join the culture of their new adopted country.

--Should it be a "multicultural" society. Each cultural group is encouraged to keep and express their cultural heritage, while at the same time respecting others right to embrace their own unique culture.

I opt for the second choice since I don't feel there is one culture anymore since people are so mobile ond move from one country to another. Whenever I have visited a city with stong muticultural heritage such as Toronto I have found that the various cultural expressions of the ethnic groups have brough much life to the city which would not be there is all ethnic groups were to confrom to the "one" culture. I have heard that all the various ethnic cultural expressions in New York City is what makes this city loved by thouse who live there and those who visit it. I have yet to visit New York so I am just going by what I have heard.

The Melting Pot IMHO has been a mistake, but hey what do I know.

[Fuzzy]

The Melting Pot IMHO has been a mistake, but hey what do I know.

Ditto that. It has been a mistake.

[Thrifty McGriff]

Then again, human beings were a mistake too!

Er... Yeah. *nervous cough*

[Ryan]

Then again, human beings were a mistake too!

Er... Yeah. *nervous cough*

I don't think humans were a mistake; at least no more so than another other form of life on this planet.

What I will say is that humans tend to be assholes, and this can be verified simply by studying history. Human history is basically just a big list of people treating each other like crap and having no respect for the rights of others.

[JoyJoy]

Joy-Joy -

Every time I see one of these things circulated by e-mail, I search for it on the Snopes "Urban Legend" web site. Sure enough, it's listed:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/american.htm

Some of the things in there are true - some are not. But it's been circulated for about five years now.

Thanks, Wayne. But it wasn't the validity of whether or not it was actually posted in the newspaper that caught me...it was the thoughts expressed.

[JoyJoy]

Hmmmm...to me, American culture=Anglo culture, therefore, every person of color must be considered an immigrant. Black culture is different than "American culture." I am a Black American and I embrace each part of that. I love getting together with my family and celebrating that. I appreciate the fact that I live in a country with so many freedoms, however, some of the things that this country was built on are not impressive to me. I'm not one who will say, I love this country, it's the best country in the world. If this country is the best then why are we ranked #24 in Education? Why are so many women and children abused everyday (the fact that it's better here than other places doesn't make that ok)? Why can't a fat person buy a plane ticket and get a seat that is wide enough for his or her ass? Does that mean that I should leave? No! Instead I dedicated my life to trying to work on these issues. America is a great country with many wonderful opportunities but I think that we need to get over ourselves!

I completely respect your point of view, as I'm sure it's different than mine, and I will admit that my life experience has been quite limited, but when I think of American culture, a very large contribution has been made by Black Americans...music, literature, theater, movies, tv. As I said in my post, mybeef isn't with those who have come to this country in any era and become contributors. My beef is with those who come here, take advantage of the benefits of living here without trying to fit in, expect to be catered to, then complain when things aren't the way they think they should be...and cry foul when asked to leave or become legal.

I agree that our country is greatly flawed...but there are many wonderful things about it, as well...and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

[JoyJoy]

You need to be a naturalized citzen for at least five years to receive food stamps/welfare unless you're a political refugee from a country such as Haiti or pregnant (you don't need a social security number to receive wic or medicaid if you're preggers.) Believe it or not, welfare even for people born here is not easy to obtain and is not doled out so easily! There are specific forumlas that are used to figure out these things. I only know this because I've known people who worked for welfare and food stamps in nyc.

Then it's either changed in the past 6 years, or it's different in Texas, because I knew of families whose sole source of income was welfare. They didn't try to get jobs, didn't try to learn the language, and didn't try to fit in. Perhaps it was a case of one or more members having been there for at least 5 years, and the other members had recently come here....I don't know. Regardless, to me, that's not the point of welfare, and they weren't making any effort to be productive citizens of a country who opened their door to them. (or not, depending...)

[JoyJoy]

And as far as language issues go, let's be realistic here. Exactly how much of an inconvenience is it that non-English-speakers are here in this country? When was the last time you or anyone you know (in America) was unable to accomplish something because they only spoke English?
Much of the English-Only movement is an almost-overt means of disenfranchising a category of people who will continue to be here as long as there are jobs for them.


--Rusty

When I lived in Texas and needed a job, I found it extremely frustrating to find that, had I known Spanish, I could have gotten a job much easier and made a significantly higher amount of money because of the prevalence of non-English-speaking people in the area. Right or wrong, that has always bothered me.

[JoyJoy]

JoyJoy,

I believe is comes down to what type of society you want to build:

--Should it be a "melting pot" there is one culture and all must surrender their culture to join the culture of their new adopted country.

--Should it be a "multicultural" society. Each cultural group is encouraged to keep and express their cultural heritage, while at the same time respecting others right to embrace their own unique culture.

I opt for the second choice since I don't feel there is one culture anymore since people are so mobile ond move from one country to another. Whenever I have visited a city with stong muticultural heritage such as Toronto I have found that the various cultural expressions of the ethnic groups have brough much life to the city which would not be there is all ethnic groups were to confrom to the "one" culture. I have heard that all the various ethnic cultural expressions in New York City is what makes this city loved by thouse who live there and those who visit it. I have yet to visit New York so I am just going by what I have heard.

The Melting Pot IMHO has been a mistake, but hey what do I know.

I agree with the second choice, also...I don't feel that all should form into one uniform culture. We each have a heritage and should be proud of it. I have a celtic background and love celebrating it. My problem is not with those who live according to their culture...I think that's one of the best things about living here is that people can do so freely. Again, though, I find it offensive that people come here and expect *us* to adapt to them, just to make them more comfortable, when they make little or no effort to give back.

[Webmaster]

The following was sent to my email, and I feel compelled to share. Let me preface it by saying that I have no problem with people who settle in America and strive to do what it takes to fit in (such as learn the language, etc) just as one would have to do in another country. Let me also say that while I am not a fanatical patriot, I am American, and recent events have me highly annoyed. ....

Even if that email had been in circulation for some years, it makes points that a lot of people probably wholeheartedly agree with.

I am an immigrant. I first learned Swiss from my parents, then High German beginning in 1st grade, then French starting in 7th grade, Italian in Jr. High School (and later the military), and English in High School. When I was a child in the 50s, America was viewed as the rescuer and defender of the free world, American culture was admired and imitated. I always had a great fascination with the United States, so it came as no surprise that I eventually met and fell in love with a young woman from New York.

This is not a relationship thread and so I'll skip that part. It did lead to me making several trips to the American Embassy and applying for a green card. I studied hard and took the TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language) as back then that increased one's chances of getting accepted. I scored high.

I got a postgraduate scholarship at an engineering school in upstate New York where for the first year my brain had to work doubly fast as I had to a) follow the lesson and b) simultaneously translate/process. I took 18-21 credit hours each semester and eventually got my degree with a 4.0 average, writing a 220-page dissertation that, in retrospect, seems composed in fairly passable English.

During my study years, the Swiss professor who had sponsored the exchange student program valiantly tried to get me to join the Swiss Society and attend its events. I think I went twice and found it absurd to hang around with other Swiss, reminiscing about "back home" and eating imported stuff. Hey, the Swiss were my people, but I hadn't come here to hang out with them. I came here because I wanted to leave there and come here.

After school, first rate degree or not, I quickly learned what it's like to be a foreigner who was not on any preferential treatment/protected list. While my English was good, I had, and still have, a "not-from-here" accent, and that made for a good number of lost opportunities. I also lost positions and promotions that way.

Nine years after I came to the United States I applied for citizenship. I hit the civil studies and American history books and virtually memorized the whole thing. When the time came and I entered the immigration office examiner's intimidating office I was hugely nervous, but rattled off detailed answers to the first three fairly involved questions, after which he said, "ok." He then turned to the next person, a more ethnically looking fellow, and asked, "Do you speak English?" The applicant nodded. The examiner asked, "Can you read that," pointing at a simple sentence on the wall. The applicant nodded. The officer said, "ok" and turned to the next.

It's another 20 years later. I am still me when I wake up in the morning, but I live in America, and I am an American citizen. I love this place and truly think it's the most beautiful country in the world. I marvel that such a vast nation came together as one union, that you can travel from the proverbial sea to shining sea and speak the same language, use the same money, use the same papers and documents, be at home. Sure, I have my own political opinions and I see a lot of stuff that's imperfect, but I know we'll work through it. Yes, we had a civil war once, but not in a million year do I think our nation could simply break up or give up, like the mighty Soviet Union did.

When I get up and run early in the morning, not a day goes by that I do not look around, and get this warm, wonderful feeling inside: I am an American. I am in California. This is who I am and where I want to be. While I believe in reasonable social services, I prefer not to use them. I have had periods where I did not have a job, but never used unemployment. Something always comes along if you look hard enough. I've had my ups and downs, but I love the freedom to do whatever and wherever my passions and interests take me. Back in Europe, if you studied a profession that's what you did for the rest of your life.

As much as I value culture, I am on the side of those who support integration. It makes zero sense to me to emmigrate to another country and then form little closed colonies there, refusing to learn the host country's language or customs. That, for the most part, is simply a drain on the system and a disservice to one's children and the community. Do I make the occasional cheese fondue or Zueri Gschnaetzlets mit Schpaetzli? Sure I do. Do I occasionally root for the Swiss (as in when they beat Canada in hockey at the Olympics)? I do. Other than that, I am American. Actually, were it not for my mom and sis back in Switzerland, I am certain I'd never go back again even for a visit.

So that gets us to the current goings on. Do we have problems in the US? Absolutely, and some aren't handled very well. Is it odd to be the sole surviving (conventional) superpower? It is. How does one handle the responsibility? Not sure. Do I think our deeply divisive two-party system is detrimental to the max? I do. It makes for 80% useless overhead and 20% action and tons of ill will.

Beyond all that, it quickly gets philosophical. I mean, what exactly is a nation? Nations are formed because it is "us" inside the nation's borders versus "them" outside of it. Inside we presumably have the same goals or are of the same kind or at least of the same general beliefs. Else a nation wouldn't make much sense. So if a nation works really well and becomes successful, others in less successful places want to come in and be part of it/take advantage of it. You always go where the grass is green. If the borders of a nation are too porous, then there's a good chance the once green grass will turn brown. Unless, of course, the influx is needed and properly managed, in which case the grass might become greener yet (with the side effect that the allure of seeking entry is even greater). Green grass will also cause envy and hatred elsewhere, especially if the methods of cultivating that green grass are presented as apparently the proper way to run a nation. The big picture, thus, is philosophical.

Finally, there's the inevitable -- the statistically inescapable "regression to the mean," the concept/rule that states that whatever rises above the average must eventually revert to it and below. That is why empires come and go. As far as "empires" go, historically speaking the United States is still very young. But with modern technology, perhaps the life cycle of empires unfolds much faster. So if we are indeed fond of this nation and the way it works, we need to take good and proper care of it.

[ScreamingChicken]

Another thing to keep in mind is that unauthorized immigrants pay taxes (at the least, sales tax), and if they're on payrolls under false documentation, will never be able to collect the benefits from the social security and FICA taxes deducted from their paychecks.

...

--Rusty
But if thy are paid in cash, the illegal pays no taxes(social security or federal income) and the employer does not pay the matching amount of social security taxes that he would have paid if this individual was paid above the table.

[GWARrior]

But if thy are paid in cash, the illegal pays no taxes(social security or federal income) and the employer does not pay the matching amount of social security taxes that he would have paid if this individual was paid above the table.

I know plenty of people who work under the table. Not immigrants.

[ScreamingChicken]

I know plenty of people who work under the table. Not immigrants.
And just because plenty of people do it , does that make it OK?

[missaf]

Don't worry Conrad, I make Emmenthaler Fondue once a month, and I'm not even Swiss :)

Thank you for the wonderful post.

[Tina]

Finally, there's the inevitable -- the statistically inescapable "regression to the mean," the concept/rule that states that whatever rises above the average must eventually revert to it and below. That is why empires come and go. As far as "empires" go, historically speaking the United States is still very young. But with modern technology, perhaps the life cycle of empires unfolds much faster. So if we are indeed fond of this nation and the way it works, we need to take good and proper care of it.

Inspiring post, Conrad. It's so easy to take our country for granted when one is born here and knows nothing else. And I wholeheartedly agree with you, and feel that we are not taking proper care of our nation, or our planet, and it worries me. Thank you for the 'nutritious food for thought.' :)

[missaf]

I remember way back in second grade we started talking about the rise and fall of empires, and we discussed the stages through which the Roman Empire reached its ultimate demise. To this day I still remember the comparison made by the teacher that the US would parallel this same pattern unless we took good care to learn from history. I don't think we do enough of that in our country, despite the wonderful assets and information we have.

[djewell]

That's a bad attitude to have, in my opinion. Things can go bad for anyone, anywhere, at any time. Why worry about the infinite number of bad things that could possibly happen if it keeps you from getting more enjoyment out of life?

I get plenty of enjoyment out of life. I just don't feel the need to feel any particular affinity for this nation.

[GWARrior]

And just because plenty of people do it , does that make it OK?

Not at all. But theres no need to go blaming foreigners for something that Americans seem to have no trouble doing.

[GWARrior]

I remember way back in second grade we started talking about the rise and fall of empires, and we discussed the stages through which the Roman Empire reached its ultimate demise. To this day I still remember the comparison made by the teacher that the US would parallel this same pattern unless we took good care to learn from history. I don't think we do enough of that in our country, despite the wonderful assets and information we have.

My Western Civ. prof in college said the same thing. Not only was he cute, but he was smart too!:eat2:

[ScreamingChicken]

Not at all. But theres no need to go blaming foreigners for something that Americans seem to have no trouble doing.
I have a problem with ANYONE whether, they are a citizen, legal resident, or illegal immigrant committing tax evasion. To not be willing to pay a fair share of one's taxes yet utilize public services such as hospitals and schools is arrogant.

[TraciJo67]

I have a problem with ANYONE whether, they are a citizen, legal resident, or illegal immigrant committing tax evasion. To not be willing to pay a fair share of one's taxes yet utilize public services such as hospitals and schools is arrogant.

I have no problem paying my share of taxes. However, I believe in a flat tax. I do not think that it is fair that my husband & I are in the highest tax bracket and our net income is nowhere even close to our gross. We work hard for our money and I feel we should be allowed to keep as much of a percentage of it as those who earn less do.

To me, a "fair share" should not be close to 50%.

[ScreamingChicken]

I completely back the idea of a flat tax. Success should not be punished.

[GWARrior]

So then bringing up the topic when talking about immigrants is pointless.

Thats what I was trying to get at.

[ScreamingChicken]

So then bringing up the topic when talking about immigrants is pointless.

Thats what I was trying to get at.

Illegalimmigrants are that because they broke American law by just coming over the border without following the peoper channels as mandated by law. Violent criminals, no, but the law was broken.

Here in Texas the vast number of illegal immigrants are payed under the table, meaning no taxes are collected to pay for the hospitals where they seek health care and the schools were their children attend. And with the throngs of illegals come individuals with unknown health histories that put the general population at risk.

[GWARrior]

Illegalimmigrants are that because they broke American law by just coming over the border without following the peoper channels as mandated by law. Violent criminals, no, but the law was broken.

Here in Texas the vast number of illegal immigrants are payed under the table, meaning no taxes are collected to pay for the hospitals where they seek health care and the schools were their children attend. And with the throngs of illegals come individuals with unknown health histories that put the general population at risk.

I guess Im just more worried about the convicted rapist down the street than a foriegn family being paid (probably very poorly) under the table.

[ScreamingChicken]

I guess Im just more worried about the convicted rapist down the street than a foriegn family being paid (probably very poorly) under the table.
The term is illegal not foreign. You can be a foreign born individiual and here legally simultaneuosly.

Did you know Castro freed a number of criminals (including murderers and rapists) with the hope they would flee to U.S. and become an American problem? I Am worried about the rapist down the street but its not the only thing I worry about.

[GWARrior]

The term is illegal not foreign. You can be a foreign born individiual and here legally simultaneuosly.

Did you know Castro freed a number of criminals (including murderers and rapists) with the hope they would flee to U.S. and become an American problem? I Am worried about the rapist down the street but its not the only thing I worry about.

The term is I dont care.

[ScreamingChicken]

You have a right to indulge in apathy. Unfortunately, most of us can't afford that luxury.

[missaf]

I have a friend who is not a citizen, collects SSI, Medicare, and works. However, she's been here 40 years, has paid taxes every year, and earned what she's collecting. That's great!

People who don't pay, illegal or not, are the problem. I'm sick of paying for other people.

[GWARrior]

You have a right to indulge in apathy. Unfortunately, most of us can't afford that luxury.

What the hell? I work hard and pay my taxes. Im not happy about our nations current state of affairs but instead of blaming it on illegal immigrants who come here anyway they can, I choose to blame it on our shit government.

[ScreamingChicken]

What the hell? I work hard and pay my taxes. Im not happy about our nations current state of affairs but instead of blaming it on illegal immigrants who come here anyway they can, I choose to blame it on our shit government.

So there gonna come here no matter what and we should just ignore the law? As lax as our governement is in enforcing immigration, it makes illegal immigrants no less guilty of breaking the law.

[JoyJoy]

What the hell? I work hard and pay my taxes. Im not happy about our nations current state of affairs but instead of blaming it on illegal immigrants who come here anyway they can, I choose to blame it on our shit government.

With the issues as complex as they are, there's not one group who is solely to blame. The problems we have in this country are due to many different factors, including, but certainly not limited to, governmental shortcomings.

[EbonySSBBW]

I completely respect your point of view, as I'm sure it's different than mine, and I will admit that my life experience has been quite limited, but when I think of American culture, a very large contribution has been made by Black Americans...music, literature, theater, movies, tv. As I said in my post, mybeef isn't with those who have come to this country in any era and become contributors. My beef is with those who come here, take advantage of the benefits of living here without trying to fit in, expect to be catered to, then complain when things aren't the way they think they should be...and cry foul when asked to leave or become legal.

I agree that our country is greatly flawed...but there are many wonderful things about it, as well...and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

I agree that there are many wonderful things about this country and I couldn't imagine living anywhere else. I just think that Americans tend to think that their shit doesn't stink. I have a problem with that.

I also agree that Black Americans have made very large contributions to this country but that doesn't seem to be a part of the "American culture." If it were than I would have learned more about those contributions in all of the American history classes that I have taken and not just about slavery and Martin Luther King Jr. Also, there wouldn't be a need to have a month dedicated to the studying of black history. It would just be combined with everything else and all considered American history but it's not that way. It's still so separate. Many Americans don't know just how much black people have contributed to this country and it's unfortunate.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

But if thy are paid in cash, the illegal pays no taxes(social security or federal income) and the employer does not pay the matching amount of social security taxes that he would have paid if this individual was paid above the table.
A lot of native-born Americans are paid under the table, too.

And some illegal Immigrants use fake Social Security cards in order to get jobs. And the taxes get taken out, but they never can apply for benefits. So they are paying in to the system, yet not cashing out.

This whole issue is very complex, and the solution will be equally complex. I just have a bit of a problem with some of the more radical solutions being proposed, such as armed volunteer patrolling the border, 700-mile fences, or the deportation of all illegqal immigrants.

[Fuzzy]

A lot of native-born Americans are paid under the table, too.

And some illegal Immigrants use fake Social Security cards in order to get jobs. And the taxes get taken out, but they never can apply for benefits. So they are paying in to the system, yet not cashing out.

This whole issue is very complex, and the solution will be equally complex. I just have a bit of a problem with some of the more radical solutions being proposed, such as armed volunteer patrolling the border, 700-mile fences, or the deportation of all illegqal immigrants.

Agreed. How about the additional layer of government that is going to be needed to process all the amnesty claims from here to eternity, issuing new SSNs, etc? How about all those war surplus land mines instead of a fence?

[Thrifty McGriff]

Hypocrisy test: Do you believe that Europe should be solely in white hands?

There is immigration and there is imperialism. Ultimately though, my argument is pointless because obviously what's done is done, and we have to live with our ancestors' mistakes. I see human history as being one mistake and tragedy after another (with some pleasant surprises now and then), and those mistakes will probably never cease to perpetuate. My frustration will never end. I just have to make sure it doesn't consume me.

I have probably missed your point, but I'm tired and not really that bright as it stands (I'm out-matched at this point) so... :p Hell, I don't even know if I used proper grammar and diction.

[Ryan]

I get plenty of enjoyment out of life. I just don't feel the need to feel any particular affinity for this nation.

I honestly believe that you should feel at least a little bit of love for this nation. Aside from Israel (which is subsidized in no small way by the American taxpayer), what nation on earth is more friendly towards Jewish people? That doesn't mean that America is perfect, or that things can never go bad, but we seem to be pretty decent at the moment.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Agreed. How about the additional layer of government that is going to be needed to process all the amnesty claims from here to eternity, issuing new SSNs, etc? How about all those war surplus land mines instead of a fence?
I was listening to Randi Rhodes the other day, and she had a good idea: why not get the Mexican government to strengthen the border on THEIR side??

[Ryan]

I was listening to Randi Rhodes the other day, and she had a good idea: why not get the Mexican government to strengthen the border on THEIR side??

Don't expect that to happen any time soon. Mexico's economy relies on the money that Mexicans living in America send back to their homeland. And the bottom line is that it isn't their job to enforce our laws.

My solution: militarize the border.

[Fuzzy]

I was listening to Randi Rhodes the other day, and she had a good idea: why not get the Mexican government to strengthen the border on THEIR side??

They've already done that with their Southern Border. Nobody in their right mind crosses that one, and lives very long. Fox is so corrupt that probably doesn't believe he has a northern border.

[dan]

Illegals enjoy more freedoms than real Americans citizens.,,,and Yes I do love my Anglo culture, my guns,pretty bbws,and I despise the ACLU.and every left wing anti-American anti-White male Christian organization..They will destroy us all...Make No Mistake, they all walk in lock step with the 5th column known as the Communist Party..

[dan]

There is immigration and there is imperialism. Ultimately though, my argument is pointless because obviously what's done is done, and we have to live with our ancestors' mistakes. I see human history as being one mistake and tragedy after another (with some pleasant surprises now and then), and those mistakes will probably never cease to perpetuate. My frustration will never end. I just have to make sure it doesn't consume me.

I have probably missed your point, but I'm tired and not really that bright as it stands (I'm out-matched at this point) so... :p Hell, I don't even know if I used proper grammar and diction.
Good thing you were not around back then..Your DNA genepool would have ended with you.. To survive you must be tough. Not a Coward

[Ryan]

There is immigration and there is imperialism. Ultimately though, my argument is pointless because obviously what's done is done, and we have to live with our ancestors' mistakes. I see human history as being one mistake and tragedy after another (with some pleasant surprises now and then), and those mistakes will probably never cease to perpetuate. My frustration will never end. I just have to make sure it doesn't consume me.

I have probably missed your point, but I'm tired and not really that bright as it stands (I'm out-matched at this point) so... :p Hell, I don't even know if I used proper grammar and diction.

Europe has been the victim of imperialism on a number of occasions. Should the Turks be forced to hand over Istanbul because it used to belong to the Europeans? But I pretty much agree with what you said, so I see no point in debating it if you don't want to. :)

[Ryan]

Good thing you were not around back then..Your DNA genepool would have ended with you.. To survive you must be tough. Not a Coward

Recognizing that we can't undo the past isn't cowardice.

[ScreamingChicken]

And some illegal Immigrants use fake Social Security cards in order to get jobs. And the taxes get taken out, but they never can apply for benefits. So they are paying in to the system, yet not cashing out.

.

If you are here illegally and you wish to work, you either a) get paid under the table (tax invasion) or b) use fake SS cards (fraud). One crime leads to another. Its like dominoes.

[ScreamingChicken]

I just have a bit of a problem with some of the more radical solutions being proposed, such as armed volunteer patrolling the border, 700-mile fences, or the deportation of all illegqal immigrants.

a)armed volunteer patrols make me nervous. we seem to have common ground on this point.

b) 700 mile fence- Use it to control not only the flow of illegal immigrants but of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and materials. We certainly have a responsibility to secure our borders.

c) deportation-I am not thrilled at the idea of separating parents and children. But entering the country illegally comes with HUGE risks one assumes if they so CHOOSE to do it.

[djewell]

I honestly believe that you should feel at least a little bit of love for this nation. Aside from Israel (which is subsidized in no small way by the American taxpayer), what nation on earth is more friendly towards Jewish people? That doesn't mean that America is perfect, or that things can never go bad, but we seem to be pretty decent at the moment.

I feel no affinity for Israel either. That country is actually more unsupportive of religious Jews than the US. For them, we're sort of like the uncle nobody wants other people to talk about.

I guess my point is, at the moment, I do not feel any affinity for any country currently in existence. I feel affinity towards my community and have its interests number one.

I once heard a chabad rabbi use the term "medina shel chesed" (a kind country) to refer to the US. Ironically, his ancestors and mine probably called this country the "treifeh medina" (unclean country).

Another point i have (sorry long post) is that what America considers kindness I consider a very destructive type of kindness. For instance, i will make a reference to the Napoleanic Wars.

When Napolean invaded Russia, many of the leaders of Jewry at that time were very very upset. Why? Because they were Russian Patriots? Chas v'sholom (G-d forbid)! No, it was because with Napolean's Army spread the enlightenment, which had/has a tendency to draw Jews away from traditional observance.

The same thing is now, here in the US, which is a great and free country. But because it is free, Jews are now leaving traditional observance for the great shams of Conservative and reform "Judaism."

Incidentally (really sorry for the long read!), today I was reading about S.R Hirsch, a great rabbi from 19th century Germany. His most important adversary was Abraham Geiger, a leader of the early Reform movement. Abraham Geiger was in love with the German culture, believed that it was the greatest country on earth, that its science and philosophy were the sublime achievement of Human Culture. I found that extremely ironic to say the least.

[Thrifty McGriff]

Europe has been the victim of imperialism on a number of occasions. Should the Turks be forced to hand over Istanbul because it used to belong to the Europeans? But I pretty much agree with what you said, so I see no point in debating it if you don't want to. :)

Silly me, I forgot all about Turkey. :doh: But enough of that!

[Jane]

Illegals enjoy more freedoms than real Americans citizens.,,,and Yes I do love my Anglo culture, my guns,pretty bbws,and I despise the ACLU.and every left wing anti-American anti-White male Christian organization..They will destroy us all...Make No Mistake, they all walk in lock step with the 5th column known as the Communist Party..
Sorry, I think you sorry-ass non-thinking conservative sacks of shit are destroying my country.

[TraciJo67]

Sorry, I think you sorry-ass non-thinking conservative sacks of shit are destroying my country.

:D :smitten: I wish I could Rep you all day.

[Littleghost]

I thought life came from the Fertile Crescent.

School seems so long ago :doh:
I always thought that a reasonable facsimile species of man developed in Africa, some moved to the fertile crescent, where civilization really took off and then spread out everywhere else. But I haven't read alot about that subject and Ryan could be more acurate than moi.

Still confused as to the evolutionary benefit of Mongoloid eyelids,
--Littleghost

[Flik]

As for the somewhat older post in reference to the country being founded on Christian values allow me to tell you both sides are somewhat right. In reality this nation was founded on Masonic values. The Masons accept any monotheistic religion though are primarily Christian, and when they founded this country they did so with Christian values in mind but following the principals of freemasonry which does not allow discrimination between monotheistic religions. This isn’t theory, this is just fact. The founding fathers were masons, we have Masonic emblems on our money, Washington monument is Masonic, Washington DC is in fact a large Masonic symbol, and our government was founded in freemasonry.

[Miss Vickie]

Sorry, I think you sorry-ass non-thinking conservative sacks of shit are destroying my country.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jane again.


Oh well. I tried. :)

[TheSadeianLinguist]

BTW, a couple other values our country was founded on:

Women as less than equal.

Slavery being dandy.

Point: Nations should grow up. Even if the majority of the country once had Krazy KKK Khristian Val-Us, sometimes our values need to change.

[Flik]

BTW, a couple other values our country was founded on:

Women as less than equal.

Slavery being dandy.

Point: Nations should grow up. Even if the majority of the country once had Krazy KKK Khristian Val-Us, sometimes our values need to change.

Change isn't always better.

[Ryan]

Sorry, I think you sorry-ass non-thinking conservative sacks of shit are destroying my country.

I think liberals and neo-cons are destroying my country. The Founding Fathers were very Libertarian. :D

[Flik]

I think liberals and neo-cons are destroying my country. The Founding Fathers were very Libertarian. :D

There are still liberals left in this country? I thought we were down to just socialists.

[Jane]

Damn skippy there are liberals and I'm a proud one.

[Ryan]

There are still liberals left in this country? I thought we were down to just socialists.

The modern liberal economic view has strong socialist leanings, but most liberals I know aren't full-blown socialists.

[Fuzzy]

As for the somewhat older post in reference to the country being founded on Christian values allow me to tell you both sides are somewhat right. In reality this nation was founded on Masonic values. The Masons accept any monotheistic religion though are primarily Christian, and when they founded this country they did so with Christian values in mind but following the principals of freemasonry which does not allow discrimination between monotheistic religions. This isn’t theory, this is just fact. The founding fathers were masons, we have Masonic emblems on our money, Washington monument is Masonic, Washington DC is in fact a large Masonic symbol, and our government was founded in freemasonry.

You aren't going to steal the Declaration of Independence now.. are you? ;)

[Tina]

And where's Nic Cage when you need him?

[dan]

Sorry, I think you sorry-ass non-thinking conservative sacks of shit are destroying my country.
Your kinds are ruining our soverntry..Let every 3d worlder in her to take and leach off the American tax payer. Jane ,,Do you work ?? Pay taxes?? I bet your a taker, not a giver..As far as thinking goes, the liberals only know Karl Marx's manifesto..That is all..No independent thinking on there part..Get with it girl,Be an independent self thinker.. Stop calling people names..

[dan]

I agree that there are many wonderful things about this country and I couldn't imagine living anywhere else. I just think that Americans tend to think that their shit doesn't stink. I have a problem with that.

I also agree that Black Americans have made very large contributions to this country but that doesn't seem to be a part of the "American culture." If it were than I would have learned more about those contributions in all of the American history classes that I have taken and not just about slavery and Martin Luther King Jr. Also, there wouldn't be a need to have a month dedicated to the studying of black history. It would just be combined with everything else and all considered American history but it's not that way. It's still so separate. Many Americans don't know just how much black people have contributed to this country and it's unfortunate.
I agree with you ..I feel that Black American roots go deeper in the United States than many whites..I also feel a bond between the two..I never felt it more than I did on 9-11.. Were like a big typical American family...I do despise true real racists on both sides..

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Don't expect that to happen any time soon. Mexico's economy relies on the money that Mexicans living in America send back to their homeland. And the bottom line is that it isn't their job to enforce our laws.

My solution: militarize the border.
You mean like the East Germans did along the Berlin Wall?

I find it ironic that a lot of conservatives who cheered when Reagan told Gorbachev to "Tear down this wall" now want a similar wall built along our southern border...

[Tina]

*Dons Moderator hat*

Let's end the name-calling now, shall we? This might be Hyde Park, but it's not a free-for-all.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

*Dons Moderator hat*

Let's end the name-calling now, shall we? This might be Hyde Park, but it's not a free-for-all.

Ooooohh boy you're all in trouble now!! Get 'em Tina!!! Good stuff good stuff!! LOL:D

[Ryan]

You mean like the East Germans did along the Berlin Wall?

Do you believe that a country has a right to defend its borders? And do you really think that patrolling our borders is the equivalent of a socialist police state preventing its own people from escaping?

I find it ironic that a lot of conservatives who cheered when Reagan told Gorbachev to "Tear down this wall" now want a similar wall built along our southern border...

The Berlin Wall was built by the East German government to prevent East German citizens from escaping a socialist police state. A wall on America's border would be built by America to prevent people from other countries from entering this country illegally. Big difference.

And, for the record, I didn't cheer when Reagan told Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin Wall. At that time I wasn't old enough to care about politics. And I'm not a conservative, either.

[missaf]

Good post Ryan, thank you.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

wall was built by the East German government to prevent East German citizens from escaping a socialist police state. A wall on America's border would be built by America to prevent people from other countries from entering this country illegally. Big difference.



You know what it is the same. It's about making this country isolationist - and that is NOT what America was ever about.

I come from immigrants on both sides. I would guess about 98% of Americans come from immigrants. It's funny how people who wouldn't be here if their ancestors did NOT emigrate from other countries are the ones saying we should keep other immigrants out.

I think we should ask the Native people who they think should stay and who should go. We did steal this land from them - lets give them the last word.:cool:

[StoneFemme]

And as far as language issues go, let's be realistic here. Exactly how much of an inconvenience is it that non-English-speakers are here in this country? When was the last time you or anyone you know (in America) was unable to accomplish something because they only spoke English?




It has taken me almost 5 months to find a crappy job within reasonable distance to my home since I moved. Why? Because I am neither Polish/English nor Spanish/English bilingual and the vast majority of my neighbors refuse to learn English. I have a 4 year degree and am in Grad School. I have an excellent Resume and impeccable references.

If I was without so much as GED I could be making 15/hr 2 blocks from my home ---- as long as my first language was Polish or Spanish. I start my job Sunday and I'll be making less than 2/3 that amount, without benefits and it will be a 50 minute train commute each way to my 3rd shift job.


I'm not taking a position on the larger political issue, But you asked for examples and I am giving you one that is burning my ass pretty hard right now.

[missaf]

I too come from immigrants on both sides of my family, and both sides can produce legal documentation from the 19th century of how they came to be Americans. My father's mother's family changed their last name at the bequest of the Judge of their county in New Mexico because he didn't want them to be hassled for sharing the last name of a gang of illegal border crossers who were killing and murdering Americans on this side of the border. He cared enough to inform my family that he would do this for them. I appreciate that.

And I appreciate the fact that people can and should do things the legal way. This is not about American becoming isolationist again, it's about allowing the legal system and the system of citizenship to be put to use to its fullest extent, and to eliminate the burden of states and individuals on paying for illegal immigration. I'm sick and tired of paying for people, illegal or not, who have no personal responsibility and expect the taxpayers to pay for their mistakes and their purile view of life. Put up the fence, it's helped curb illegal crossings in California so far, and I for one and relieved that it has.

Thanks for showing your true colors, Jane. You could have just said we could agree to disagree, but your insistence in attempting to belittle others through petty name calling shows just how much you really care about your fellow posters.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

I come from a family on one side that was deeply entrenched in the Mafia for many years. Many illegal things were done in the name of familia. But they were here legally. Does that make it different???

Close the borders we become an Isolationist country. Immigrants - legal and otherwise - built this country.


I too come from immigrants on both sides of my family, and both sides can produce legal documentation from the 19th century of how they came to be Americans. My father's mother's family changed their last name at the bequest of the Judge of their county in New Mexico because he didn't want them to be hassled for sharing the last name of a gang of illegal border crossers who were killing and murdering Americans on this side of the border. He cared enough to inform my family that he would do this for them. I appreciate that.

And I appreciate the fact that people can and should do things the legal way. This is not about American becoming isolationist again, it's about allowing the legal system and the system of citizenship to be put to use to its fullest extent, and to eliminate the burden of states and individuals on paying for illegal immigration. I'm sick and tired of paying for people, illegal or not, who have no personal responsibility and expect the taxpayers to pay for their mistakes and their purile view of life. Put up the fence, it's helped curb illegal crossings in California so far, and I for one and relieved that it has.

Thanks for showing your true colors, Jane. You could have just said we could agree to disagree, but your insistence in attempting to belittle others through petty name calling shows just how much you really care about your fellow posters.

[missaf]

I come from a family on one side that was deeply entrenched in the Mafia for many years. Many illegal things were done in the name of familia. But they were here legally. Does that make it different???

Close the borders we become an Isolationist country. Immigrants - legal and otherwise - built this country.


No, the mafia, including the Mexican Mafia here that my family fought against do not make it different. What makes it different is the immigration aspect. Closing the border to illegal immigrants does not deny them the right to become Americans, it denies them the right to assume citizenship and leech off my tax dollars just because they learned how to cross a fence or dig a tunnel. Regardless of who built this country, every nation has the right to govern how many and who gets through the border. This lasseiz faire attitude to letting in everyone without protocol is going down a treacherous road that many, including myself don't want to pay for.

If you'd like to pay for all the illlegals coming in to California and insist on an open border, then you can pay for your share, I don't want to pay it anymore. So go ahead, move out of Colorado, get away from Dobson and the Devil and come pay for the illegals ruining my state.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

I was trying to have a civil conversation with you - I see that's not possible.

If you're so unhappy in CA - move. It is that simple. But I don't want to live in an America where we put up walls and lock our borders. Land of the free??


No, the mafia, including the Mexican Mafia here that my family fought against do not make it different. What makes it different is the immigration aspect. Closing the border to illegal immigrants does not deny them the right to become Americans, it denies them the right to assume citizenship and leech off my tax dollars just because they learned how to cross a fence or dig a tunnel. Regardless of who built this country, every nation has the right to govern how many and who gets through the border. This lasseiz faire attitude to letting in everyone without protocol is going down a treacherous road that many, including myself don't want to pay for.

If you'd like to pay for all the illlegals coming in to California and insist on an open border, then you can pay for your share, I don't want to pay it anymore. So go ahead, move out of Colorado, get away from Dobson and the Devil and come pay for the illegals ruining my state.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[missaf]

There is already a border wall in California, and it has cut down illegal immigration traffic by over 14%, if I remember correctly. That's a huge incentive to continue to place a wall that cuts down on the drug trafficking, the human trafficking, the deaths of innocents who try and dig tunnels and have babies in the middle of the desert. I am pleased to live here, and I don't hate it. I'm doing my part to stop the illegal immigration problem that is plaguing my state, I don't have to move.

California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas bear the brunt of illegal immigration costs at the cost of the state's taxpayers. If the federal government won't do something about it, then the states can and will continue to do what they can to end it. May 1st is Illegal Immigrants Day to boycott spending money, perhaps participating in that might also help their cause.

The President left a huge hole in his speech last week here in California. 6 million people have tried to cross the border since he took office. Though we can't deport the illegal immigrants that are here now, we are a nation of legal immigrants. Every massive wave of immigration has been legal. How many names are in the Ellis Island records? Yes, we needed the influx of people to make this country great, however, we did it by the book. Allowing more illegal aliens to enter the country is contrary to the laws of the land.

These people crossing the border don't care about being citizens, they want to stay here and use our economy to their country's benefit without participating. All we need to do is enforce the laws of the land. If you can't get a job here, then you won't come here. If you want to follow our rules and get a job and prosper, then by all means, line up, file your papers, learn our language and pass the Constitution Test, and come right in!

This is not about isolationism, it's about enforcing our borders. The weight we are bearing for illegals in this country is drowning us, and it needs to stop.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

we are a nation of legal immigrants

Are we? Really? I think African Americans could argue that point. And long before Ellis Island people came here and took this coutry. That's not legal - is it?? Oh yeah and we stole Texas and part of Colorado from Mexico.

[dan]

It has taken me almost 5 months to find a crappy job within reasonable distance to my home since I moved. Why? Because I am neither Polish/English nor Spanish/English bilingual and the vast majority of my neighbors refuse to learn English. I have a 4 year degree and am in Grad School. I have an excellent Resume and impeccable references.

If I was without so much as GED I could be making 15/hr 2 blocks from my home ---- as long as my first language was Polish or Spanish. I start my job Sunday and I'll be making less than 2/3 that amount, without benefits and it will be a 50 minute train commute each way to my 3rd shift job.


I'm not taking a position on the larger political issue, But you asked for examples and I am giving you one that is burning my ass pretty hard right now.and you pay taxes on that 2/3 wage, and if you use a hospital you will get a bill or garnisherd paycheck....

[missaf]

and you pay taxes on that 2/3 wage, and if you use a hospital you will get a bill or garnisherd paycheck....


Yup, and illegals get their healthcare on our dime, those taxes on the 2/3 wage!

When I was struggling to get on my feet out of high school, I was working a casual job, making more than minimum wage, busting my ass to save money. Then I was in a car accident, and I couldn't afford to pay for the healthcare. I went to apply for state's insurance and was told because I wasn't pregnant or an illegal I couldn't get benefits. What's wrong with this picture?

[StoneFemme]

and you pay taxes on that 2/3 wage, and if you use a hospital you will get a bill or garnisherd paycheck....

Which is why THEY can go to a hospital or doctor when they are sick, and I get stuck roughing it out without medicine.

[missaf]

Are we? Really? I think African Americans could argue that point. And long before Ellis Island people came here and took this coutry. That's not legal - is it?? Oh yeah and we stole Texas and part of Colorado from Mexico.


You're confusing imperialism and slavery with immigration, big difference.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

You're confusing imperialism and slavery with immigration, big difference.

I'm not confusing anything.

[Jane]

Your kinds are ruining our soverntry..Let every 3d worlder in her to take and leach off the American tax payer. Jane ,,Do you work ?? Pay taxes?? I bet your a taker, not a giver..As far as thinking goes, the liberals only know Karl Marx's manifesto..That is all..No independent thinking on there part..Get with it girl,Be an independent self thinker.. Stop calling people names..
Dan, grow up, move out of your parents' basement. I work. I've often worked two jobs. I've raised a son that works, and pays taxes.

You have no concept of what a liberal believes.

Look outside yourself, lose the selfish attitudes and your feeling that you have a right to control what other people do, and you may find a heart.

[Jane]

I too come from immigrants on both sides of my family, and both sides can produce legal documentation from the 19th century of how they came to be Americans. My father's mother's family changed their last name at the bequest of the Judge of their county in New Mexico because he didn't want them to be hassled for sharing the last name of a gang of illegal border crossers who were killing and murdering Americans on this side of the border. He cared enough to inform my family that he would do this for them. I appreciate that.

And I appreciate the fact that people can and should do things the legal way. This is not about American becoming isolationist again, it's about allowing the legal system and the system of citizenship to be put to use to its fullest extent, and to eliminate the burden of states and individuals on paying for illegal immigration. I'm sick and tired of paying for people, illegal or not, who have no personal responsibility and expect the taxpayers to pay for their mistakes and their purile view of life. Put up the fence, it's helped curb illegal crossings in California so far, and I for one and relieved that it has.

Thanks for showing your true colors, Jane. You could have just said we could agree to disagree, but your insistence in attempting to belittle others through petty name calling shows just how much you really care about your fellow posters.
Missa, go back and read Dan's posts, and see why I reacted as I did.

I seldom "agree to disagree", you're right. But I'm sick and tired of having every problem of this country blamed on liberalism.

I'm proud to feel that people can think for themselves and make decisions for themselves. I'm tired of the right wingers I deal with every day telling my gay friends they have no legitimate right in society.

If I showed true colors, I certainly never hid them before. Go back and read some of dan's posts, then come back to me.

If you felt threatened by what I posted, imagine what I've felt for the last six years, as every political belief I hold is sold down the river, and reviled as evil.

[missaf]

If you felt threatened by what I posted, imagine what I've felt for the last six years, as every political belief I hold is sold down the river, and reviled as evil.


I get the same thing every day on this board, it's nothing new, Jane.

[TraciJo67]

Yup, and illegals get their healthcare on our dime, those taxes on the 2/3 wage!

When I was struggling to get on my feet out of high school, I was working a casual job, making more than minimum wage, busting my ass to save money. Then I was in a car accident, and I couldn't afford to pay for the healthcare. I went to apply for state's insurance and was told because I wasn't pregnant or an illegal I couldn't get benefits. What's wrong with this picture?

Well, first, what's wrong with it is that illegal immigrants absolutely, unequivocally are NOT eligible for "free" healthcare. In most states, the only people categorically eligible for medical assistance are the elderly, disabled, and children. Some generous states use their own funds to extend a safety umbrella to people who would otherwise not have any healthcare coverage, but even in this situation, illegal immigrants are ineligible for any kind of benefit at all, including healthcare. The only possible program that could help would be what is known as "EMA" (Emergency Medical Assistance), and this is for undocumented immigrants who are faced with a life-threatening situation & will die without immediate intervention.

Federal Medical Assistance laws are even more stringent. An immigrant must document his/her status & verify that he/she is here legally -- and then must meet all other eligibility criteria. Refugees and asylees will often meet exemption criteria for Medical Assistance, but these individuals entered the country under special circumstances. They were fleeing persecution and/or the imminent threat of death.

I spent a number of years working with elderly & vulnerable adults, and part of my job was to know all of the state, federal & community resources that were available to them. To that end, I trained extensively in this area, and also have access to the state & federal healthcare policy manuals.

If you doubt what I am saying, you can go to your own state website -- www.dhs.state.mn.us is mine -- just substitute the 2-letter initial for your state.

[GWARrior]

Well, first, what's wrong with it is that illegal immigrants absolutely, unequivocally are NOT eligible for "free" healthcare. In most states, the only people categorically eligible for medical assistance are the elderly, disabled, and children. Some generous states use their own funds to extend a safety umbrella to people who would otherwise not have any healthcare coverage, but even in this situation, illegal immigrants are ineligible for any kind of benefit at all, including healthcare. The only possible program that could help would be what is known as "EMA" (Emergency Medical Assistance), and this is for undocumented immigrants who are faced with a life-threatening situation & will die without immediate intervention.

Federal Medical Assistance laws are even more stringent. An immigrant must document his/her status & verify that he/she is here legally -- and then must meet all other eligibility criteria. Refugees and asylees will often meet exemption criteria for Medical Assistance, but these individuals entered the country under special circumstances. They were fleeing persecution and/or the imminent threat of death.

I spent a number of years working with elderly & vulnerable adults, and part of my job was to know all of the state, federal & community resources that were available to them. To that end, I trained extensively in this area, and also have access to the state & federal healthcare policy manuals.

If you doubt what I am saying, you can go to your own state website -- www.dhs.state.mn.us is mine -- just substitute the 2-letter initial for your state.


Thank you for clearing that up ;)

[TheSadeianLinguist]

Your kinds are ruining our soverntry..Let every 3d worlder in her to take and leach off the American tax payer. Jane ,,Do you work ?? Pay taxes?? I bet your a taker, not a giver..As far as thinking goes, the liberals only know Karl Marx's manifesto..That is all..No independent thinking on there part..Get with it girl,Be an independent self thinker.. Stop calling people names..

Nah, Jane's a mama. She's not just a giver, she's a PUSHER! :p

[Miss Vickie]

Your kinds are ruining our soverntry..Let every 3d worlder in her to take and leach off the American tax payer. Jane ,,Do you work ?? Pay taxes?? I bet your a taker, not a giver..As far as thinking goes, the liberals only know Karl Marx's manifesto..That is all..No independent thinking on there part..Get with it girl,Be an independent self thinker.. Stop calling people names..

Oooh I love being called a "kind". By that do you mean a hard working tax paying nurse kind? A small business owner kind? A mother of three who's volunteered in her kids' schools for the last 15 years kind? A regular volunteer with the poor and homeless in her community kind? How about an animal rescuer kind? Yeah, we're all just a bunch of commie pinko takers. You got us pegged.

And for the record, I'm not a socialist, a marxist, or any other "ist". I'm a woman who believes that we should give those who need it a leg up while giving them incentive (including monetarily) to be independent. A mother who believes we shouldn't be bombing other people's children for some nebulous, ever-changing reason. A professional who routinely works with the poor and disadvantaged, who supports a woman's right to choose, and who has given to women, men and babies in her community for years. An educated professional who sees a whole lotta shit on any given day (night), social issues that would make your head spin, levels of poverty which should be unimaginable in this country. I've never read Karl Marx or Groucho Marx or any other Marx. I have, however, read enough of your posts to know that you're pretty ignorant about people, our country, and the poor but you sure do like to spout poorly constructed platitudes and think you actually know something. Oh, and I definitely think I've rad enough to know that you're completely not worth my time.

[TheSadeianLinguist]

^ Also one of those pusher-giver types. :p Yay, Vickie!

[Miss Vickie]

^ Also one of those pusher-giver types. :p Yay, Vickie!

These days I'm a catcher. ;) Almost literally the other night since our providers were all tied up in other deliveries. *gulp*

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Dan, grow up, move out of your parents' basement. I work. I've often worked two jobs. I've raised a son that works, and pays taxes.

You have no concept of what a liberal believes.

Look outside yourself, lose the selfish attitudes and your feeling that you have a right to control what other people do, and you may find a heart.


Once again we have someone who wants to control everyone else but doesn't want to be controlled.

I'm so friggin sick of this attitude too Jane. This is my country too!

Btw - I think I love you Jane. lol

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Is anyone else at all concerned that the REAL reason this adminmistration wants to seal off the borders has nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with creating a police state with Martial Law and finally giving Bush what he wanted all along - a Dictatorship?

Remember closed borders can also serve to keep people in.

[EbonySSBBW]

This is not about American becoming isolationist again, it's about allowing the legal system and the system of citizenship to be put to use to its fullest extent, and to eliminate the burden of states and individuals on paying for illegal immigration. I'm sick and tired of paying for people, illegal or not, who have no personal responsibility and expect the taxpayers to pay for their mistakes and their purile view of life.


I have a few questions. I always hear people say "I'm tired of paying for these people" in reference to poor people or illegal immigrants. I know that you can't speak for everyone but what exactly do you mean when you say that? What is it exactly that you are paying for? Break it down for me. How is your money paying for illegal immigrants? I'm not saying that it is or isn't but perhaps your answer to this question will help me see into the minds of those who feel so strongly about this. I'm just curious as to what you really believe and if it is accurate. It's not enough for me to just hear information from others, I do research and talk to people and then form my own opinion. I know that sometimes people feel passionately about an issue but then they don't have anything to back it up or they are basing their opinion on false information. Please share with me what info you have and where it comes from. Thanks.

[EbonySSBBW]

Yup, and illegals get their healthcare on our dime, those taxes on the 2/3 wage!

When I was struggling to get on my feet out of high school, I was working a casual job, making more than minimum wage, busting my ass to save money. Then I was in a car accident, and I couldn't afford to pay for the healthcare. I went to apply for state's insurance and was told because I wasn't pregnant or an illegal I couldn't get benefits. What's wrong with this picture?

I've spent a lot of time working in social services and I've seen lots of people using the ER as a doctor's office and then not being able to pay the bill but those people were legal Americans who were just poor. That's why we need a better healthcare system. The illegal immigrants that I worked with were afraid to go to the hospital because they were afraid of being deported. What records or information do you have about all of the money spent on illegal immigrants in California? Is there a link to the state budget? Is that info included in there? Also, please include the information that says that illegal immigrants are eligible for state assistance? I really am curious to see these things so I can understand how you have formed your opinions. Thanks.

[Miss Vickie]

Excellent points, Ebony. Also, what about the money that has gone into corporate welfare over the years? It'd be interesting to see, dollar for dollar, how they compare. Of course, given how bad I am at figuring out money, it'd go way over my head. But I still don't feel totally copasetic about the money dished out to companies who went under at least in part because of greed. I'd much rather pay for milk, cheese and cereal (WIC) for a single mom trying to make ends meet.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

I think liberals and neo-cons are destroying my country. The Founding Fathers were very Libertarian. :D
No - the Founding Fathers were the liberals of their day, because they were looking for progress and change.

The Torries - being loyal to the British Crown and looking to maintain the status quo - were the conservatives of their day.

If there were any libertarians back then, they must have been behind the Articles of Confederation, whick set up a limited government and was a total faliure. So the liberals gathered in Philadelphia and wrote the Constitution.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

I've spent a lot of time working in social services and I've seen lots of people using the ER as a doctor's office and then not being able to pay the bill but those people were legal Americans who were just poor. That's why we need a better healthcare system. The illegal immigrants that I worked with were afraid to go to the hospital because they were afraid of being deported. What records or information do you have about all of the money spent on illegal immigrants in California? Is there a link to the state budget? Is that info included in there? Also, please include the information that says that illegal immigrants are eligible for state assistance? I really am curious to see these things so I can understand how you have formed your opinions. Thanks.
It's a proven fact that 70 to 80 percent of the people in this country on food stamps are caucasian. But you never hear that in the right-wing talking points that far too many people in this country use as their "proof".

[Fuzzy]

It's a proven fact that 70 to 80 percent of the people in this country on food stamps are caucasian. But you never hear that in the right-wing talking points that far too many people in this country use as their "proof".

( do you have a source for that stat? )

[Jane]

http://www.nilc.org/immspbs/fnutr/foodasst/food_stmp_facts_120705.pdf

[Jane]

The above link states undocumented are still not able to receive benefits.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/oane/MENU/Published/FSP/FILES/Participation/FSPPart2003.pdf

Shows

Race Recipients
Black 7,000,000+
White 8,900,000+
Hispanic 3,700,000+
Other 849,000+

From USDA Food and Nutrition Services, Food Stamp Program

[TraciJo67]

The above link states undocumented are still not able to receive benefits.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/oane/MENU/Published/FSP/FILES/Participation/FSPPart2003.pdf

Shows

Race Recipients
Black 7,000,000+
White 8,900,000+
Hispanic 3,700,000+
Other 849,000+

From USDA Food and Nutrition Services, Food Stamp Program

Just from my own little microcosm, that seems about right. Sadly, the vast majority of public assistance clients that I see coming & going (we are housed in the same building with the eligibility workers) appear to be minorities. It doesn't surprise me. We could argue about the reasons behind it all day (only, count me out coz I only have a few minutes, then I'm going to bed :D) but the bottom line is that minorities are disproportionately poorer than caucasians.

What is really sad about those figures is that the actual numbers of minorities as a percentage of the U.S. population is probably far less than 50%.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

The above link states undocumented are still not able to receive benefits.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/oane/MENU/Published/FSP/FILES/Participation/FSPPart2003.pdf

Shows

Race Recipients
Black 7,000,000+
White 8,900,000+
Hispanic 3,700,000+
Other 849,000+

From USDA Food and Nutrition Services, Food Stamp Program
It looks like I was a tad off on the percentages. But the numbers show that more whites get food stamps than any other racial group.

And no benefits for undocumented workers. Which means that no one is coming here illegally just to get on welfare, as people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly keep saying.

[missaf]

It looks like I was a tad off on the percentages. But the numbers show that more whites get food stamps than any other racial group.

And no benefits for undocumented workers. Which means that no one is coming here illegally just to get on welfare, as people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly keep saying.


Partially correct, illegal immigrants don't receive benefits, they however have children here, whom they accept welfare for on their behalf. If the children receive money, so do the parents. (http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/means.html)

[TheNowhereMan]

while i may not agree with everything you say, i agree yo have a right to say it. People need to not care about "political correctness"

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Partially correct, illegal immigrants don't receive benefits, they however have children here, whom they accept welfare for on their behalf. If the children receive money, so do the parents. (http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/means.html)
And as natural-born citizens, the kids have that right.

[missaf]

And as natural-born citizens, the kids have that right.

Right, the kids have that right, I'm not denying that! The parents choosing to have children here so they can stay, and remain illegal is the problem, and if you look at the stats, there's a significant amount of that going on, more than to deny that it's just superficial.

[TraciJo67]

Right, the kids have that right, I'm not denying that! The parents choosing to have children here so they can stay, and remain illegal is the problem, and if you look at the stats, there's a significant amount of that going on, more than to deny that it's just superficial.

While I don't have any hard & fast statistics about illegals who are receiving benefits on behalf of their minor children, I think it's safe to assume that the numbers are quite low. Illegals live in fear of getting caught & deported -- and having children here is NOT a guarantee of immunity from deportation. I'm thinking that not many would prefer to risk exposure by approaching a government agency for help.

And Wayne, this site http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_02/sr02_135.pdf indicates (if I'm reading it correctly) that 75% of the U.S. population is white. When you break it down statistically, a very overwhelming majority of welfare recipients are minorities. In fact, caucasians are NOT a majority receiving food stamps (combine the minority races) -- nowhere even close to 70-80%. To me, this is significant because of what it says about poverty & race in the U.S.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

While I don't have any hard & fast statistics about illegals who are receiving benefits on behalf of their minor children, I think it's safe to assume that the numbers are quite low. Illegals live in fear of getting caught & deported -- and having children here is NOT a guarantee of immunity from deportation. I'm thinking that not many would prefer to risk exposure by approaching a government agency for help.

And Wayne, this site http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_02/sr02_135.pdf indicates (if I'm reading it correctly) that 75% of the U.S. population is white. When you break it down statistically, a very overwhelming majority of welfare recipients are minorities. In fact, caucasians are NOT a majority receiving food stamps (combine the minority races) -- nowhere even close to 70-80%. To me, this is significant because of what it says about poverty & race in the U.S.
I had said in an earlier post, TraciJo, that i was a bit off on my percentages. I just don't understand the outright hatred I'm seeing on this and other boards directed at people who only wanted to come here in search of a better life for their families.

After all, that's why my grandparents came here from Lithuania in 1915. And neither of them ever learned to read, write, or speak fluent English. But they did raise two sons (my dad and my uncle) who served during WWII. And made their own contributions to the American fabric.

[TheNowhereMan]

I thought life came from the Fertile Crescent.

School seems so long ago :doh:
that is africa ^^;

[Ryan]

You know what it is the same. It's about making this country isolationist - and that is NOT what America was ever about.

It's not the same thing at all. I don't know how this can be any simpler:

Berlin Wall - Built by an oppressive government to keep oppressed citizens from escaping.

Hypothetical walls on America's borders that probably won't ever be built - Built by a relatively free and civilized country for national security reasons as well as to deal with people from other countries who continuously ignore our laws.

And I don't see how securing our borders makes us isolationist. I've never said we should have zero contact or dealings with other nations.

I come from immigrants on both sides. I would guess about 98% of Americans come from immigrants. It's funny how people who wouldn't be here if their ancestors did NOT emigrate from other countries are the ones saying we should keep other immigrants out.

When did I say we should ban all immigration under any circumstances? Securing our borders and banning all immigration are not the same thing.

[Ryan]

Immigrants - legal and otherwise - built this country.

It might be more accurate to say that immigrants and their descendants of immigrants built this country. Plenty of policies have played a role in the creation and building of this country. That doesn't necessarily mean those policies should be continued forever without questioning their usefulness or possible negative consequences.

[Ryan]

Are we? Really? I think African Americans could argue that point. And long before Ellis Island people came here and took this coutry. That's not legal - is it?? Oh yeah and we stole Texas and part of Colorado from Mexico.

Texas fought a war and achieved independence, and then became part of The Union.

[Ryan]

No - the Founding Fathers were the liberals of their day, because they were looking for progress and change.

And today most of the important Founding Fathers would probably be thought of as Libertarian or even conservative in many ways.

If there were any libertarians back then, they must have been behind the Articles of Confederation, whick set up a limited government and was a total faliure. So the liberals gathered in Philadelphia and wrote the Constitution.

The Constitution set up a limited government as well. It just didn't create a confederacy.

[Ryan]

It looks like I was a tad off on the percentages. But the numbers show that more whites get food stamps than any other racial group.

That makes sense when you consider that there are approximately twice as many white people in this country as there is everyone else combined. Absolute numbers give misleading results in this this context, which is what happened here.

And no benefits for undocumented workers. Which means that no one is coming here illegally just to get on welfare, as people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly keep saying.

Do hospitals have to treat them; emergency rooms to be specific? Are the children eligible to attend public schools?

[Isa]

Texas fought a war and achieved independence, and then became part of The Union.

Thanks, I was going to bring that one up. :)

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Do hospitals have to treat them; emergency rooms to be specific? Are the children eligible to attend public schools?
Would you rather have people dying on the streets, Ryan? Or not getting educated????

That doesn't sound like "compassionate conservatism" to me - it sounds downright mean and cruel.

[Ryan]

Would you rather have people dying on the streets, Ryan? Or not getting educated????

So does that mean illegals are eligible for some social services/programs?

That doesn't sound like "compassionate conservatism" to me - it sounds downright mean and cruel.

I've never claimed to be a "compassionate conservative", or any type of conservative for that matter.

[Jane]

That makes sense when you consider that there are approximately twice as many white people in this country as there is everyone else combined. Absolute numbers give misleading results in this this context, which is what happened here.

Ryan, pardon me, I could have done percentages, but I felt raw numbers WAS the purest form in this matter.

Remember, this also includes the elderly who receive $10 a month in food stamps, with the VAST majority being female heads of households with children.

[TheSadeianLinguist]

I often find myself conflicted between the ideas of libertarianism and democractic socialism. In a perfect world, there'd be minimal need for government. Unfortunately, given people's ability to harm themselves and others, I understand the need for more government intervention.

Like you said, Wayne, it's HARD to let someone starve to death. (I've used that same argument on Ryan many times. :p) Ultimately, without government assistance, a lot of people are. So we have to make a decision as to what's more valuable: Humanity or greater freedom. Sucky decision and I often find myself changing my mind, but I find that if it's a work day, I'm far more likely to say freedom. :p

[TraciJo67]

So does that mean illegals are eligible for some social services/programs?



I've never claimed to be a "compassionate conservative", or any type of conservative for that matter.

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any services at all. Their U.S. born children would be eligible for food support, possible cash grants, and medical assistance - but the parents would not be included in the household for determining the amount of assistance (only the children would be considered). I honestly don't know if undocumented children are eligible to attend school or get public assistance. I'd be interested in seeing that answer too.

[Jane]

I often find myself conflicted between the ideas of libertarianism and democractic socialism. In a perfect world, there'd be minimal need for government. Unfortunately, given people's ability to harm themselves and others, I understand the need for more government intervention.

Like you said, Wayne, it's HARD to let someone starve to death. (I've used that same argument on Ryan many times. :p) Ultimately, without government assistance, a lot of people are. So we have to make a decision as to what's more valuable: Humanity or greater freedom. Sucky decision and I often find myself changing my mind, but I find that if it's a work day, I'm far more likely to say freedom. :p
It's a fine balancing act between paternalism and care. We walk on a razor's edge.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

So does that mean illegals are eligible for some social services/programs?
Are you so cold-hearted that you would deny someone life-saving aid?


I've never claimed to be a "compassionate conservative", or any type of conservative for that matter.
And you obviously have no compassion for anyone but yourself. I'd rather be a "bleading heart liberal" as many have called be over the years than someone with no heart, which you appear to be.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

It's a fine balancing act between paternalism and care. We walk on a razor's edge.
So many of our society's problems are very complex, and require equally complex solutions. The simple solutions being offerred by those on the right almost always miss the mark.

[TraciJo67]

Are you so cold-hearted that you would deny someone life-saving aid?



And you obviously have no compassion for anyone but yourself. I'd rather be a "bleading heart liberal" as many have called be over the years than someone with no heart, which you appear to be.

Wayne, I think you are misreading Ryan completely.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Wayne, I think you are misreading Ryan completely.
I don't think so, TraciJo.

[TraciJo67]

I don't think so, TraciJo.

Look at his posts again, Wayne -- and take off that stifling damn defensive liberal cloak for a moment. He's not suggesting that anyone should starve or be deprived, is he?

He appears to disagree with some factual issues. He may not be the social liberal that you & I are. But I do not see anywhere that he suggests we burn illegals and their offspring at the stake. This appears to be the picture that you are seeing. At least, it's the one you are painting.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Look at his posts again, Wayne -- and take off that stifling damn defensive liberal cloak for a moment. He's not suggesting that anyone should starve or be deprived, is he?

He appears to disagree with some factual issues. He may not be the social liberal that you & I are. But I do not see anywhere that he suggests we burn illegals and their offspring at the stake. This appears to be the picture that you are seeing. At least, it's the one you are painting.
I read the same posts you did, TraciJo, and that's the impression I got. If he's saying that people don't deserve certain services, then he's saying that those services should be denied. Whether someone's life hangs in teh balance or not.

Are the doctors and nurses in the E/R supposed to check for green cards before treating someone? Many of the anti-immigration folks here in Colorado are advocating that. I hear garbage like that every day here in Colorado, and now we're seeing it here on Dimensions.....

[Miss Vickie]

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any services at all. Their U.S. born children would be eligible for food support, possible cash grants, and medical assistance - but the parents would not be included in the household for determining the amount of assistance (only the children would be considered). I honestly don't know if undocumented children are eligible to attend school or get public assistance. I'd be interested in seeing that answer too.

Back when I was looking at different ways to become a midwife, I found a place (and actually there are several, I think) in Texas, where women come over the border, birth centers staffed by midwives where they can have their babies who then become American citizens. These places used to do a HUGE business, and would advertise many births in a months' time to midwifery students, important because we need "x" number of births to get our midwifery licenses.

Anyhow, I always thought that was interesting. I always wondered what kind of prenatal care they got, did they bring records of care, how did they get over the border, etc. At the time I was looking at these places it was from the perspective of "how do I get my births as quick as possible" but now I look at it more from the patient's perspective (both the mom and the baby).

Also, EMTALA laws apply to immigrants (regardless of status) too, right? So while they can't officially get care in non emergent situations, as far as I know, if they're truly sick or are in labor they can't be denied care. So at least they have that, but at it's certainly not the highest quality of care, and ends up costing us much more than if we'd just provided decent preventative care to begin with.

[missaf]

Right, Vickie, they (illegals) aren't entitled to care, but they can't be denied care, hence the reason there are over 80 hospitals in California that are closing the doors to their ERs, Urgent Cares and even the entire hospital because they can't stay afloat due to losing so much money, non-paying customers being chief among the reasons. It's not just illegal immigration that's causing the closings, it's general leeching of the system by everyone who doesn't have insurance.

Anchor babies are a huge issue, because of the funding given to the entire families of illegal immigrants. Here in California each family is entitled to over $12,000 for up to two children per year, and that doesn't include the other services and funds that go along with it.

[MissToodles]

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any services at all. Their U.S. born children would be eligible for food support, possible cash grants, and medical assistance - but the parents would not be included in the household for determining the amount of assistance (only the children would be considered). I honestly don't know if undocumented children are eligible to attend school or get public assistance. I'd be interested in seeing that answer too.


In nyc, all one needs to do to enroll their children in a public school is show proof of address. So while it's illegal to pretend you live in a certain neighborhood to enroll in a better school, it's not aganist the law to be a citzen of another country and attend a nyc public school (I'm not sure how it works in other cities/states)

Here is a recent article from the ny times which focuses on this dilemna:

A small, troubled high school in East Harlem seemed an unlikely place to find students for a nationwide robot-building contest, but when a neighborhood after-school program started a team last winter, 19 students signed up. One was Amadou Ly, a senior who had been fending for himself since he was 14.


Michelle Agins/The New York Times
Kristian Breton held a meeting with his team of robot-builders before they were to leave for Atlanta.
The project had only one computer and no real work space. Engineering advice came from an elevator mechanic and a machinist's son without a college degree. But in an upset that astonished its sponsors, the rookie team from East Harlem won the regional competition last month, beating rivals from elite schools like Stuyvesant in Manhattan and the Bronx High School of Science for a chance to compete in the national robotics finals in Atlanta that begins tomorrow.

Yet for Amadou, who helps operate the robot the team built, success has come at a price. As the group prepared for the flight to Atlanta today, he was forced to reveal his secret: He is an illegal immigrant from Senegal, with no ID to allow him to board a plane. Left here long ago by his mother, he has no way to attend the college that has accepted him, and only a slim chance to win his two-year court battle against deportation.

In the end, his fate could hinge on immigration legislation now being debated in Congress. Several Senate bills include a pathway for successful high school graduates to earn legal status. But a measure passed by the House of Representatives would make his presence in the United States a felony, and both House and Senate bills would curtail the judicial review that allows exceptions to deportation.

Meanwhile, the team's sponsors scrambled to put him on a train yesterday afternoon for a separate 18-hour journey to join his teammates from Central Park East High School at the Georgia Dome. There, more than 8,500 high school students will participate in the competition, called FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology) by its sponsor, a nonprofit organization that aims to make applied sciences as exciting to children as sports.

"I didn't want other people to know," said Amadou, 18, referring to his illegal status. "They're all U.S. citizens but me."

Most team members learned of his problem only yesterday at a meeting with Kristian Breton, 27, the staff member at the East Harlem Tutorial program who started the team, inspired by his own experience in the competition when he was a high school student in rural Mountain Home, Ark.

Alan Hodge, 18, echoed the general dismay. "We can't really celebrate all the way because it's not going to feel whole as a team without Amadou," he said.

Amadou's teammates have struggled with obstacles of their own. When Mr. Breton called a meeting of parents to collect permission slips last week, only five showed up. One boy's mother had a terminal illness, Mr. Breton learned. Another mother lived in the Dominican Republic, leaving an older sibling to manage the household. One of the six girls on the team said her divorced parents disagreed about letting her go, and her mother, who was willing to approve the trip, lacked the $4 subway fare to get to the meeting.

But Amadou's case stands out. As he tells it, with corroboration from immigration records and other documents, he was 13 and spoke no English when his mother brought him to New York from Dakar on Sept. 10, 2001. He was 14 when she went back, leaving him behind in the hope that he could continue his American education.

By then, he had finished ninth grade at Norman Thomas High School in a program for students learning English as a second language. But his mother left instruction for him to take a Greyhound bus to Indianapolis, where a Senegalese woman friend had agreed to take him in and send him to North Central High School there.

"It was the same thing when I was in Africa," he said, describing a childhood spent shuttling between his grandmother and the household of his father, a retired police officer with 12 children and three wives.

The woman in Indiana, who had four children of her own, changed her mind about keeping him after his sophomore year, and he returned by bus to New York in the summer of 2004. "I had to find a way to help myself for food and clothes, and to buy some of my school supplies," he said, recalling days handing out fliers for a clothing store on a Manhattan street corner. "I ended up living with another friend — I'm under age and I can't live alone."
Taking shelter with a taxi driver, a friend of the family who could sign his report cards, Amadou enrolled in 11th grade at Central Park East. Under longstanding Supreme Court decisions, children have a right to a public education regardless of their immigration status, and in New York, as in many other cities, a "don't ask, don't tell" approach to legal status has prevailed for years.

But after the 9/11 attacks, practices around the country changed. On a rainy highway in Pennsylvania on Nov. 7, 2004, Amadou met a very different attitude when he had the bad luck to be a passenger in a car rear-ended by a truck. The state trooper who responded questioned his passport and school ID, and summoned federal immigration officers, who began deportation proceedings.

There is no right to a court-appointed lawyer in immigration court, and though Amadou's friends hired one for him at first, records show that the lawyer soon withdrew. "We really couldn't afford to pay," Amadou explained.

By the time the case was finally sent to a special juvenile docket in federal court after several adjournments, Amadou had already turned 18, closing off some legal options that can lead to a green card for juveniles, said Amy Meselson, a Legal Aid lawyer who took on the case last week.

At this point, she said, his best chance is probably a long shot: a measure included in an amendment to many Senate immigration bills, known as the Dream Act, which offers a path to citizenship to young people of good character who have lived in the United States for five years, been accepted to college, or earned a high school diploma or the equivalent.

Opponents say the measure will encourage illegal immigrants, and subsidize their education at the expense of American children and their taxpaying parents.

But mentors for Amadou's team, which calls itself "East Harlem Tech," seem to have no ear for such arguments.

"He's been a hard-working and diligent student with mathematical ability and a scientific mind," said Rhonda Creed-Harry, a math teacher at Central Park East. But though he has been accepted at the New York City College of Technology in Brooklyn, he said he could not attend because he does not qualify for financial aid.

Ramon Padilla, a team mentor who stopped a year short of a college degree himself and now works in the audio-visual department at Columbia University, called the news that Amadou faced deportation "overwhelming."

"I'm telling you, he's a great kid, a very talented kid," he said, adding that Amadou played an important role in building the robot, with help from Frank Sierra, a buddy of Mr. Padilla who repairs elevators. Starting from a standard set of parts, each team had six weeks to design a robot that could move down a center line and throw balls into a goal. In the last round of the competition, Amadou helped his team form a winning alliance with teams from Morris High School in the Bronx and Staten Island Tech, which both advanced to the finals as well.

Mr. Breton, who made last-minute trips to the Bronx to gather parental permissions, said he was determined not to leave Amadou behind. "I started with 19 people, and I want to take 19 people to Atlanta," he told the student. "I want to make sure that everybody has the full opportunity, because I feel you've earned it."

Amadou returned the compliment. "Because of him, it happened," he said.

Yet on the train to Atlanta, accompanied by another staff member, Amadou was still worried. Bloomberg L.P., which is underwriting the full cost of the team's trip to Atlanta, plans to display its robot at the company's headquarters in New York and invite the team up to celebrate their achievement. He said he was afraid that for lack of the right ID he might be turned away from the building.

[TraciJo67]

I read the same posts you did, TraciJo, and that's the impression I got. If he's saying that people don't deserve certain services, then he's saying that those services should be denied. Whether someone's life hangs in teh balance or not.

Are the doctors and nurses in the E/R supposed to check for green cards before treating someone? Many of the anti-immigration folks here in Colorado are advocating that. I hear garbage like that every day here in Colorado, and now we're seeing it here on Dimensions.....

Wayne, I'm about as liberal as they get. I believe that once they are here, no matter how they got here, they are entitled to some basic humane levels of service.

That doesn't mean that I think we should just open our borders and let 'em all pour in. Much as I sympathize with why many are so desperate to sneak across the borders and enter this country illegally, we cannot care for them all. I believe that we have a moral obligation to help those who are less fortunate, but there are other ways that we can help. We do not have to continue allowing people to enter this country illegally, then shrug our collective shoulders when they have children, and allow them access to our human & social service network.

That doesn't make me a monster. I'm a realist. If we continue allowing unfettered access to our services, they are going to continue being used. How do we keep up with the demand, while ensuring that our own less fortunate citizens aren't being denied access to an already over-burdened system?

[TraciJo67]

Right, Vickie, they (illegals) aren't entitled to care, but they can't be denied care, hence the reason there are over 80 hospitals in California that are closing the doors to their ERs, Urgent Cares and even the entire hospital because they can't stay afloat due to losing so much money, non-paying customers being chief among the reasons. It's not just illegal immigration that's causing the closings, it's general leeching of the system by everyone who doesn't have insurance.

Anchor babies are a huge issue, because of the funding given to the entire families of illegal immigrants. Here in California each family is entitled to over $12,000 for up to two children per year, and that doesn't include the other services and funds that go along with it.

They can be denied care, and they routinely are. People operate under the false assumption that hospitals *must* accept patients. If the patient cannot demonstrate an ability to pay, and the reason he/she is there is not an emergency, the hospital is under no obligation to treat.

[Tina]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TraciJo67 again.

I completely agree, Traci. I don't want to see anyone treated inhumanely, but we do have citizens already living in horrible poverty here, and I'd like to see them get help first. Not long ago I was reading about the policy of Mexico regarding people who stay there illegally and it's terrible. Yet Fox wants to keep ours lax and unenforced. I don't necessarily support a fence, but something must be done to take care of our own, while allowing people to still immigrate here, legally. And hey, if I was in the situation many in Mexico are in I'd try to get over here, too, so I'm not sympathetic, but we have to be realistic.

[Ryan]

Ryan, pardon me, I could have done percentages, but I felt raw numbers WAS the purest form in this matter.

Remember, this also includes the elderly who receive $10 a month in food stamps, with the VAST majority being female heads of households with children.

I believe that raw numbers are the wrong way to go when somebody is trying to prove a point about a group of people.

[Ryan]

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any services at all. Their U.S. born children would be eligible for food support, possible cash grants, and medical assistance - but the parents would not be included in the household for determining the amount of assistance (only the children would be considered). I honestly don't know if undocumented children are eligible to attend school or get public assistance. I'd be interested in seeing that answer too.

Illegals are apparently eligible for some services. Don't emergency rooms have to treat everyone, regardless of their ability to pay? And I know of at least two states that passed laws denying services to illegals (Prop 187 in California and something in Georgia, I believe).

[Ryan]

Are you so cold-hearted that you would deny someone life-saving aid?

Are you admitting that illegals can receive some social services?

And you obviously have no compassion for anyone but yourself. I'd rather be a "bleading heart liberal" as many have called be over the years than someone with no heart, which you appear to be.

I believe we should attempt to pass laws that are objectively rational, not compassionate.

[Ryan]

So many of our society's problems are very complex, and require equally complex solutions. The simple solutions being offerred by those on the right almost always miss the mark.

So what is your complex solution? Should we be rewarding people for their own criminal behavior?

[GWARrior]

Illegals are apparently eligible for some services. Don't emergency rooms have to treat everyone, regardless of their ability to pay? And I know of at least two states that passed laws denying services to illegals (Prop 187 in California and something in Georgia, I believe).

ERs dont have to treat everyone, regardless. I know that if you dont show a health insurance card or some form of payment, you can be put back outside. My co-worker injured her back while on vacation in New Hampshire. She went to the hospital, and there was a big sign stating what I just said. Luckily she had insurance.

[Ryan]

I believe that once they are here, no matter how they got here, they are entitled to some basic humane levels of service.

Criminal behavior should be rewarded with taxpayer-financed handouts?

[Ryan]

ERs dont have to treat everyone, regardless. I know that if you dont show a health insurance card or some form of payment, you can be put back outside. My co-worker injured her back while on vacation in New Hampshire. She went to the hospital, and there was a big sign stating what I just said. Luckily she had insurance.

I'm not familiar with the laws of New Hampshire, but I've heard the exact opposite from people living elsewhere.

[GWARrior]

I'm not familiar with the laws of New Hampshire, but I've heard the exact opposite from people living elsewhere.

I know the hospital in my area wont turn anyone away.

[Ryan]

If the patient cannot demonstrate an ability to pay, and the reason he/she is there is not an emergency, the hospital is under no obligation to treat.

But if the patient is having a medical emergency, are the hospitals required to treat them?

[Miss Vickie]

They can be denied care, and they routinely are. People operate under the false assumption that hospitals *must* accept patients. If the patient cannot demonstrate an ability to pay, and the reason he/she is there is not an emergency, the hospital is under no obligation to treat.

True, but if they're not emergently sick, they have no business being at a hospital, particularly if they don't have the means to pay for it. I mean, that's one reason, as Missaf pointed out, that hospitals are having a hard time financially. People don't have insurance so they don't get routine care, then go to an ER for a sinus infection. It's a ridiculous use of resources, very expensive and, when the person can't pay, very draining on the hospital. Free clinics, OTOH, are good sources of care that are affordable and set up to handle non life threatening conditions.

But you know, I feel that is why we need affordable, subsidied if necessary, insurance. Ultimately it saves all of us money because routine care is always cheaper than emergent care. Seeing a doctor for a toenail infection could run close to $1000, as opposed to a $100 visit and a $10 medication. When I lived in WA state, everyone got health insurance. Period. Premiums were sliding scale, based on income and some people who didn't qualify for Medicaid got their premiums for as little as a few dollars a month, if not free for their kids. I left WA in 1998 so I don't know if they're still doing it but for me, as part of the working poor at the time, it was very affordable and very helpful. Health insurance is just way too expensive for most people to afford, which is why we have 45,000,000 or more people in this country who have no insurance.

As far as people streaming over the border, I agree that we can't care for them all. I also feel that, given that we have people in THIS country, American citizens who are going hungry and without health care, we need to take care of them BEFORE using funds for people in other countries. I know that's horribly selfish of me, but given that our social resources are limited (whether or not you think that's okay) my preference is that we take care of Americans first.

[Miss Vickie]

But if the patient is having a medical emergency, are the hospitals required to treat them?

According to EMTALA, if it's a woman in labor or someone in a life threatening emergency, they MUST be treated, which can mean, at the very minimum stabilization. The law came about because ambulances would go from hospital to hospital with indigent people and hospitals would refuse to treat them. I believe at least one person died as result. :(

You can google EMTALA for more info, but that's the law that we, as health care professionals, are governed by.

[Ryan]

I completely agree, Traci. I don't want to see anyone treated inhumanely, but we do have citizens already living in horrible poverty here, and I'd like to see them get help first. Not long ago I was reading about the policy of Mexico regarding people who stay there illegally and it's terrible. Yet Fox wants to keep ours lax and unenforced. I don't necessarily support a fence, but something must be done to take care of our own, while allowing people to still immigrate here, legally. And hey, if I was in the situation many in Mexico are in I'd try to get over here, too, so I'm not sympathetic, but we have to be realistic.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to helping Americans who are truly in need, through no fault of their own. And a border wall wouldn't prevent anyone from coming here legally.

[Ryan]

As far as people streaming over the border, I agree that we can't care for them all. I also feel that, given that we have people in THIS country, American citizens who are going hungry and without health care, we need to take care of them BEFORE using funds for people in other countries. I know that's horribly selfish of me, but given that our social resources are limited (whether or not you think that's okay) my preference is that we take care of Americans first.

That's common sense, not selfishness.

[Tina]

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to helping Americans who are truly in need, through no fault of their own. And a border wall wouldn't prevent anyone from coming here legally.

No, I know that's not your message, Ryan. I really feel for those people, but we cannot help everyone. What do you think about Bush's guest worker program?

[Ryan]

No, I know that's not your message, Ryan. I really feel for those people, but we cannot help everyone. What do you think about Bush's guest worker program?

I don't know all the details of Bush's guest worker program so I can't really say for sure how I feel about it. But I am opposed to any policy that doesn't involve deporting people who came here illegally, so that would be a must.

[Miss Vickie]

No, I know that's not your message, Ryan. I really feel for those people, but we cannot help everyone. What do you think about Bush's guest worker program?

Tina, what's that? I've never heard of it (we don't get too many people from Canada streaming over our Alaskan border, strangely enough ;)).

[Tina]

No? Ya don't say. :p :D

Here is one article about it, and links to others at the end, if you like. Found here. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-03-30-bush-canada-mexico_x.htm)

Bush stumps for 'guest worker' program in Cancun
By David Jackson, USA TODAY
CANCUN, Mexico — President Bush told Mexican counterpart Vicente Fox on Thursday he supports a temporary "guest worker" program, but said the final decision belongs to Congress — where many of Bush's fellow Republicans oppose the idea.
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, left, Mexican President Vicente Fox and President Bush tour an archaeological area in Mexico. Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, left, Mexican President Vicente Fox and President Bush tour an archaeological area in Mexico.

"I told (Fox) there is a legislative process that's going forward," Bush said.

Conservatives in Washington criticized a guest-worker program as tantamount to amnesty for illegal immigrants. (Related story: House Republicans blast bill)

"I don't think he's concerned about alienating voters — he's not running for re-election," Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo, said of Bush. Tancredo said Republicans could lose Congress over the immigration issue. "I wish he'd think about the party, and of course, I also wish he'd think about the country."

Bush said he is seeking a "comprehensive" immigration package that includes border security. Fox, echoing Bush, said border security is a "shared" responsibility. He said Mexico would address issues such as its own economic development and the smuggling of immigrants into the USA. (Related video: Bush tours Mayan ruins)

The two presidents and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper were at this resort on the Gulf of Mexico for a two-day summit.

Three-man summit: In Cancun, President Bush said he, Mexican President Vicente Fox and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper were working to improve vital relationships.

Priorities: Security concerns, illegal immigration and a dispute over U.S. tariffs on Canadian lumber.

Zeroing in: The official focus of the summit is a three-way pact designed to make borders more secure without hampering business.

Their meetings took place as a rift widened between Bush and many of his fellow conservative Republicans over the immigration issue. Referring to a Senate bill that tracks Bush's position on guest workers, Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., said Americans should be able to "smell the foul odor that's coming out of the U.S. Senate." Asked whether the same odor was emanating from the president, he said, "I have no comment."

It's not the first time Bush has been at odds with much of his own party over immigration.

Going back to his days as Texas governor, Bush has resisted calls to seal off the border. Bush argued that people will cross the Rio Grande from Mexico to provide for their families, and he has often praised immigrants' contributions.

"We are a nation of law, but that doesn't preclude us from being a welcoming nation," Bush said before his visit to Cancun.

The lines are hardening in Congress. A bill from the GOP-run House stresses tough enforcement of laws against illegal immigration, with no expansion of provisions allowing Mexicans and others to enter the USA as temporary guest workers, which Bush favors.

The Senate Judiciary Committee included guest-worker provisions and the possibility of citizenship for illegal immigrants in a bill it passed this week by a 12-6 vote — thanks to Democrats. The six opponents were all Republicans.

Those who have followed Bush's career attribute his immigration views to two factors: his Texas roots and the growth of the Hispanic voter population.

"He hasn't been at odds with a lot of Texans on immigration," says Rich Galen, a Republican political strategist who has worked in Texas.

Bruce Buchanan, a presidential expert at the University of Texas, says immigrants there "have a reputation as hard workers who are good for the economy." He says Bush and his close political adviser Karl Rove have cited the growing Hispanic vote as essential to the future of the Republican Party.

"It's hard to weigh the two" factors, Buchanan says, "but they've both played into the calculation."

Bush first ran for governor in 1994, the same year California conservatives helped pass Proposition 187 to deny social services to illegal immigrants. The courts blocked the proposition, but Hispanic voters shifted decidedly to Democrats. That did not go unnoticed in Texas.

Bush "saw what happened," Galen says.

Dan Stein, president of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), accuses business leaders — and Bush — of favoring illegal immigration because it keeps wages low. He says the president is "oblivious" to the concerns of ordinary Americans. "He has by every standard encouraged massive illegal immigration," Stein says.

Republican pollster Ed Goeas, however, says his research shows that while Americans of all ideologies want to better protect the border, they are more sympathetic to immigrants willing to work for their families. Critics such as Stein "are very vocal," Goeas says, "but they are not very representative of the conservatives across the board."

Bush said in Washington this week that "a mother or a father who's worried about putting food on the table" is willing to take risks for their family. "I used to tell this to people down there in Texas," Bush said. "Family values don't stop at the Rio Grande River."

Migration Information Source (http://www.migrationinformation.org/USFocus/display.cfm?ID=202)

At about.com: The Guest Worker Program: Both side of the issue/Political Stands (http://immigration.about.com/od/laborjobissues/i/GuestWorkrIssue.htm)

[StoneFemme]

But if the patient is having a medical emergency, are the hospitals required to treat them?


Some are. Government-funded ones are. I know Cook County is - because that is where I'll end up if I break something.

[Ryan]

Some are. Government-funded ones are. I know Cook County is - because that is where I'll end up if I break something.

Does that apply to all government-funded hospitals nationwide, or just ones in Illinois?

[StoneFemme]

Does that apply to all government-funded hospitals nationwide, or just ones in Illinois?


Honestly? Not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if most or all states had similar policies. I know at least *some* others do.

[missaf]

Does that apply to all government-funded hospitals nationwide, or just ones in Illinois?

I know that Martin Luther King Hospital here in California is closing because of its funding issues with so many out of insurance patients, as well as over 80 others.

At my local private community hospital, we were told to admit and treat any illegals that came to the door. I don't know if someone was trying to write it off or it was a mandate, but anyone who questioned it was fired. *shrug*

[Miss Vickie]

Here's some good basic information on EMTALA.

http://www.emtala.com/faq.htm

[TraciJo67]

Criminal behavior should be rewarded with taxpayer-financed handouts?

Ryan, first of all, there are levels of "criminal" behavior. I am uncomfortable throwing desperately poor & hungry immigrants into the same category as I would a rapist, or even a middle-class shoplifter. I understand what motivates many illegal immigrants, as I have seen what true poverty looks like. If you were the father of an ill or hungry child, you would do *whatever* it took to provide him or her with the opportunities for a better life. If that means sneaking across the border with your pregnant wife, you'd do it. Please do not kid yourself and assume that you would doom your family to hopeless poverty because you don't want to be considered a "criminal".

Understanding *why* they sneak across the border doesn't mean that I sanction it. I do not believe that illegal immigrants should be allowed free access to our social & human services, as I believe I mentioned. Humane treatment, yes. I believe that a pregnant woman should be given appropriate medical attention and nourishment. I believe that anyone with a medical emergency should be treated without regard to status or ability to pay. Nobody should have to go hungry or live in the streets -- but then, the sad reality is, they do. We do not have enough resources to spread around for everyone in need (because we do not make it a priority, but that's another argument).

I do not believe that we should make it easy for immigrants to cross over our borders, and to stay. I'm concerned that some of our generous policies ensure that they will continue to do so -- including what I just read about children not having to verify immigration status in order to enroll in the public school system. It's heart-wrenching to think about denying a child access to an education, but that is probably one reason why hopeful immigrants sneak across our borders.

I am not comfortable criminalizing their behavior, because that is not a very compassionate approach. Your viewpoint is practical, but I sense a level of contempt from you, aimed at those who are here illegally. Am I reading you wrong?

[TheSadeianLinguist]

I'm with Traci Jo on this one, Ryan. Big ol' difference between a rapist and an illegal immigrant. Basic medical care should not be a privlege, even at the expense of tax payers. Ideally they'd be able to pay for their own, but that's life.

[djewell]

The above link states undocumented are still not able to receive benefits.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/oane/MENU/Published/FSP/FILES/Participation/FSPPart2003.pdf

Shows

Race Recipients
Black 7,000,000+
White 8,900,000+
Hispanic 3,700,000+
Other 849,000+

From USDA Food and Nutrition Services, Food Stamp Program

I would like to add that many hasidic jews recieve welfare and other forms of government income assistance, because we have 6 children per household (on average) and only have limited education, in secular terms anyway.

[Ryan]

Ryan, first of all, there are levels of "criminal" behavior. I am uncomfortable throwing desperately poor & hungry immigrants into the same category as I would a rapist, or even a middle-class shoplifter.

I didn't say they were in the same category as rapists. They' still criminals, though.

I understand what motivates many illegal immigrants, as I have seen what true poverty looks like. If you were the father of an ill or hungry child, you would do *whatever* it took to provide him or her with the opportunities for a better life. If that means sneaking across the border with your pregnant wife, you'd do it. Please do not kid yourself and assume that you would doom your family to hopeless poverty because you don't want to be considered a "criminal".

Actually, if I lived in true poverty I wouldn't be having kids in the first place. But I understand why these people want to come here.

I am not comfortable criminalizing their behavior, because that is not a very compassionate approach. Your viewpoint is practical, but I sense a level of contempt from you, aimed at those who are here illegally. Am I reading you wrong?

Yes, I'm irritated that people can come here illegally and then suck up taxpayer money by using social services. I'm even more irritated by the Americans who think this is okay.

[Ryan]

I'm with Traci Jo on this one, Ryan. Big ol' difference between a rapist and an illegal immigrant. Basic medical care should not be a privlege, even at the expense of tax payers. Ideally they'd be able to pay for their own, but that's life.

You have a right to your opinion, of course.

[Ryan]

I would like to add that many hasidic jews recieve welfare and other forms of government income assistance, because we have 6 children per household (on average) and only have limited education, in secular terms anyway.

Why do they have all these children if they can't afford to care for them?

[djewell]

because its a major commandment from G-d to have lots of babies. besides: consider how fast orthodox jewry has grown in this country after its destruction in europe.

[Ryan]

because its a major commandment from G-d to have lots of babies. besides: consider how fast orthodox jewry has grown in this country after its destruction in europe.

Do you think it's right for people to intentionally have children they can't afford, knowing that the taxpayers will have to pick up the tab?

[djewell]

Whos more important, G-d or the US?

[Ryan]

Whos more important, G-d or the US?

I'd say the USA is more important.

[TraciJo67]

I don't think so, TraciJo.

Wayne, if you wouldn't mind bending over, I'd like to kiss your ass.

It appears that I was wrong.

:D

[djewell]

I'd say the USA is more important.

Certainly you would say that, but neither I nor any hasidic jew would dream that. thats why we have children.

[EtobicokeFA]

First let me say that it's foolish to think people wouldn't have kids just because they live in true poverty. It has been happening forever.

As for the fact that church is asking this people to have a large family, I think we should be asking the church the question about supporting them.

If a immigrant comes into the country, gets a job, starts to pay taxes, what do it really cost to the American people? Some E.S.L. classes?

The real issues in this debate?

1) The fact that that these people usually are not cover by the same labour laws as rest. Some are used in salve situtions

2) These people are trying to escape from poverty.

3) Jobs that would normally go to the working poor, will go to the illegal immigrats for a faction of the mininum wage.

Seriously, this issue has more to do with the poor in the country that the actual immigration.

[Tina]

It's also an issue of employers wanting to get cheap labor and exploiting illegals and screwing over citizens in the process.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Wayne, if you wouldn't mind bending over, I'd like to kiss your ass.

It appears that I was wrong.

:D
That's OK, TraciJo. After working in Colorado Springs every weekday for eight years now (a real cesspool of conservatism), I've come across many people like Ryan. They're much easier to spot now, and we have a few here at Dimensions now....

:(

Their responses to complex problems are always the same - simple solutions from simple minds.

[Tina]

I know it must be difficult living in such a Conservative area when you are so Liberal, Wayne. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, and I think Ryan is anything but simple. I hate the namecalling stuff.

[GWARrior]

I know it must be difficult living in such a Conservative area when you are so Liberal, Wayne. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, and I think Ryan is anything but simple. I hate the namecalling stuff.

whose name-calling?

[Jack Skellington]

I hate the namecalling stuff.

Preach it! Me too!

Politics always seem to bring out the worst in people. I see so many posts on the Hyde Park (and both sides are equally guilty) just oozing with name calling, condescension and smarm.

I'd love it if people could just stick to the issues in these debates without being smug or resorting to name calling.

[GWARrior]

Preach it! Me too!

Politics always seem to bring out the worst in people. I see so many posts on the Hyde Park (and both sides are equally guilty) just oozing with name calling, condescension and smarm.

I'd love it if people could just stick to the issues in these debates without being smug or resorting to name calling.


Namecalling is perfectly fine as long as you can take it just as well as you can give it!

[Jack Skellington]

Namecalling is perfectly fine as long as you can take it just as well as you can give it!

I disagree. Besides being immature, it means you lack the ability to logically make your point. So to discredit those that disagree with you, you have to resort to name calling.

[GWARrior]

I disagree. Besides being immature, it means you lack the ability to logically make your point. So to discredit those that disagree with out you have to resort to name calling.


Chill out. I was having some fun. Immature is not bad. Seems some of you people need it once in a while...:cool:

[Wayne_Zitkus]

I disagree. Besides being immature, it means you lack the ability to logically make your point. So to discredit those that disagree with you, you have to resort to name calling.
Try being a liberal working in a conservative city. I've been called a socialist, a communist, a terrorist sympathiser, and much worse.

Name-calling is just another tool in the toolbox of political discussion.

[RedHead]

I was on the debate team in High School and I loved it. We almost always won because someone on the other team would lose their composure and either resort to name calling; become personal (insulting someones intelligence), or use less than complete truthful information in order to make a point.

I still love to debate; but I have found that on boards people tend to throw out any appropriate rules of debate engagement and go straight for the jugular.

I am not saying "let's all get along" because frankly it wouldn't happen and second it would be so boring.

But I think logical discourse with appropriate facts is a forum we could all enjoy and learn from.

Obviously there are area's where none of are going to agree; but I think the almost vigilante approach to calling someones beliefs into question is inappropriate.

I am guessing that this section was opened to keep potentially volatile topics from taking over the other board sections. With that in mind; if you come to this section you shouldn't be suprised that people are going to disagree with you; but calling someone a Liberal or a Conservative with venom does not lead to educating one another; it just leads to angry, hurt people.

BTW I did read the whole thread.

[Jack Skellington]

Try being a liberal working in a conservative city. I've been called a socialist, a communist, a terrorist sympathiser, and much worse.

And the far left does the same. It's bad no matter who does it.

I hate smarm. I hate name calling. I don't care which side is doing it. The immature rantings and name calling that has been so prevalent in politics the last several years is one of the big reasons the majority of people have such a low view of politics in general.

Name-calling is just another tool in the toolbox of political discussion.

A sound logical discussion with strong valid points has no need for smarm or name calling. If a person resorts to name calling it means they could not support their points any other way.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

I know it must be difficult living in such a Conservative area when you are so Liberal, Wayne. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, and I think Ryan is anything but simple. I hate the namecalling stuff.
It is, Tina. And it's even harded working at a defense contractor and having to constantly hold your tongue.

I know that Ryan calls himself a "libertarian". I consider him a conservative, because it's been my experience here in Colorado that libertarians are mostly conservatives who disagree with the Republican Party.

And I consider conservatives to be simple-minded because all they offer are simple solutions to complex problems. Deporting all illegal immigrants, for example, would cause far more problems than what currently exist. It's been my experience that most conservative positions are borne out of a combination of selfishness ("I've got mine, to hell with everyone else"), ignorance (lack of basic knowledge of the facts behind a specific issue), and paranoia (fear of those who think, look, love, or worship differently than they do).

[RedHead]

And the far left does the same. It's bad no matter who does it.

I hate smarm. I hate name calling. I don't care which side is doing it. The immature rantings and name calling that has been so prevalent in politics the last several years is one of the big reasons the majority of people have such a low view of politics in general.



A sound logical discussion with strong valid points has no need for smarm or name calling. If a person resorts to name calling it means they could not support their points any other way.


Jack,

As always eloquent! Thank you!

[EbonySSBBW]

Do you think it's right for people to intentionally have children they can't afford, knowing that the taxpayers will have to pick up the tab?


Ryan, I wish that this issue was that simple. You remind me of the people who say, "Is it right for people to eat so much when they are already overweight?" "Why don't they just eat less and exercise?" I know that you are an intelligent man and so you have to realize that it is not really that simple. Did you know that when a child is molested that sometimes that early exposure to sex increases the chances of that child engaging in sexual activity at an early age and bringing children into this world? Did you know that when a child doesn't get the attention they need at home that they sometimes turn to sex for that attention and affection? Did you know that a lot of people abuse alcohol and drugs to numb themselves against the pain from abuse? Did you know that many people also suffer from mental illness as a result of child abuse? Did you know that a lot of poor people are dealing with those issues? Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if children weren't abused, men didn't beat women (or women beat men) and people didn't get addicted to drugs and neglect their children?

Yes, it seems simple. If a person can't take care of themselves then they shouldn't have children. I'm telling you that it's NOT that simple. I invite you to volunteer at a homeless shelter or work with children who have been abused. Perhaps that would help you understand the complexity of the issue and how the things that happen to children (who are illegal or not) affect their whole life and changes who they are. I wish that more people understood how some of these social problems are connected.

I have worked with so many children who were either abused or have parents who are addicted to drugs. These kids are struggling and they need help or they will become another statistic. I have worked with many women who have been victims of domestic violence and they were abused as children. I wish that more people felt so passionately about THOSE issues. If you want to talk about taxpayers dollars...do you know how much money child abuse and domestic violence costs taxpayers every year? Does that concern you at all? I have lots of information on these issues. If you're interested then please let me know.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

And the far left does the same. It's bad no matter who does it.

I hate smarm. I hate name calling. I don't care which side is doing it. The immature rantings and name calling that has been so prevalent in politics the last several years is one of the big reasons the majority of people have such a low view of politics in general.



A sound logical discussion with strong valid points has no need for smarm or name calling. If a person resorts to name calling it means they could not support their points any other way.
Most people don't have time to formulate that type of discussion in a forum such as this, Jack. And when someone on the other side resorts to name-calling, it's more of a case of "fighting fire with fire".

I will not apologize for being a liberal. And when a conservative attacks me (rather that discussing the issue at hand), I will not remain silent.

[RedHead]

It is, Tina. And it's even harded working at a defense contractor and having to constantly hold your tongue.

I know that Ryan calls himself a "libertarian". I consider him a conservative, because it's been my experience here in Colorado that libertarians are mostly conservatives who disagree with the Republican Party.

And I consider conservatives to be simple-minded because all they offer are simple solutions to complex problems. Deporting all illegal immigrants, for example, would cause far more problems than what currently exist. It's been my experience that most conservative positions are borne out of a combination of selfishness ("I've got mine, to hell with everyone else"), ignorance (lack of basic knowledge of the facts behind a specific issue), and paranoia (fear of those who think, look, love, or worship differently than they do).

This is almost a text book case of what I was talking about...generalization of people who lean opposite of what you believe...so they must be stupid, selfish, fearful, paranoid and ignorant of facts. I don't think you are any of the above statements that you so casually just labeled me as.

I don't quite understand your frustration with politics; you have stated that you are very involved locally; which is where it all starts. I too am involved; I enjoy it immensely and I also have really good friends on the opposite side of the spectrum from me....I listen to them and agree with some and disagree with other things; but I always respect them and their beliefs.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

This is almost a text book case of what I was talking about...generalization of people who lean opposite of what you believe...so they must be stupid, selfish, fearful, paranoid and ignorant of facts. I don't think you are any of the above statements that you so casually just labeled me as.

I don't quite understand your frustration with politics; you have stated that you are very involved locally; which is where it all starts. I too am involved; I enjoy it immensely and I also have really good friends on the opposite side of the spectrum from me....I listen to them and agree with some and disagree with other things; but I always respect them and their beliefs.
It's a generalization formed after years of living life as a Democrat in Republican-controlled areas - first in NJ, and now here. If someone presents facts as you generally do, Redhead, then the generalization does not apply. Butr when someone merely parrots the talking points they hear on talk radio, the generalization applies.

I have conservative friends too, Redhead. But I have no respect whatsoever for what conservative politicians and pundits have done to our country.

[RedHead]

Thank you for the compliment Wayne....I think the world of you and Sandie both.

I may not always agree with what you say or present. But I will always listen/read.

I've always lived in a "Republican" state so I can only imagine the frustration you must go through on a daily basis being the minority.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Thank you for the compliment Wayne....I think the world of you and Sandie both.

I may not always agree with what you say or present. But I will always listen/read.

I've always lived in a "Republican" state so I can only imagine the frustration you must go through on a daily basis being the minority.
That means you have an open mind, Redhead. Far too many conservatives that I'm in contact with on a daily basis have minds that seem to be welded shut.

And thanks to you for the compliment.

[Jack Skellington]

I will not apologize for being a liberal.

And no one is asking you to. Neither side should have to apologize.

And when someone on the other side resorts to name-calling, it's more of a case of "fighting fire with fire".

It only takes one person to take the high road to start things to change.

Just because another sided does it, doesn't make it right and doesn't mean you should do it too. Again, if your point is valid you wouldn't need to insult someone to prove it. Your point would stand on it's own merits.

And to be fair, both sides are equally guilty of taking the low road and being the first to sling insults at opposing viewpoints.

[Miss Vickie]

I've always lived in a "Republican" state so I can only imagine the frustration you must go through on a daily basis being the minority.

Yep. I live with this every freakin' day. :)

[RedHead]

Yep. I live with this every freakin' day. :)

Poor Vickers....I laughed when I read that; but it didn't even occur to me that you would be "suffering"

But you know I don't care if you worship Satan....as long as there are no human or animal sacrifices involved:p

I bet you just have a blast at work!

[djewell]

Did ryan get banned?

[TheSadeianLinguist]

I don't think so. I think he did that to be a pain in the ass.

[djewell]

i see. i was about to get all exasperated if he actually had been banned.

[Ryan]

Certainly you would say that, but neither I nor any hasidic jew would dream that. thats why we have children.

So you don't care about America but you think it's okay to live off the wealth confiscated from its citizens? That sounds a bit arrogant, in my opinion.

[Ryan]

That's OK, TraciJo. After working in Colorado Springs every weekday for eight years now (a real cesspool of conservatism), I've come across many people like Ryan. They're much easier to spot now, and we have a few here at Dimensions now....

If the presence of people who dare to disagree with your opinions is so traumatic, you could always move to another state and quit posting at Dimensions. And, once again, I'm not a conservative.

Their responses to complex problems are always the same - simple solutions from simple minds.

I'm still waiting to hear your complex solution, Wayne.

[Miss Vickie]

Poor Vickers....I laughed when I read that; but it didn't even occur to me that you would be "suffering"

But you know I don't care if you worship Satan....as long as there are no human or animal sacrifices involved:p

I bet you just have a blast at work!

Nah, no sacrifices (anymore). ;) And yes, it's very difficult, though my field tends to draw a more liberal bunch, especially the midwives. Interestingly, when I lived in Seattle, I was considered conservative and in some ways am more conservative than both my ex and Burtimus. I'm also more conservative than many of my friends from Washington and California. It's only when compared to Alaskans -- many of whom are by and large both religious and conservative -- that I look like a fuzzy headed liberal freak, or rather "crunchy" as they call me at work.

It's okay, though. I have my "Jon Stewart, '08" and "Hillary '08" bumper stickers ordered and on their way. Gives me something to look forward to, knowing this administration will not last forever, and the hope that we'll have an administration more in line with my beliefs.

[djewell]

So you don't care about America but you think it's okay to live off the wealth confiscated from its citizens? That sounds a bit arrogant, in my opinion.

we lived in poverty in europe, and we're prepared to do it again if necessary, but if america is okay with us "confiscating the wealth of its citizens" so we will continue to do that.

[Ryan]

I know that Ryan calls himself a "libertarian". I consider him a conservative, because it's been my experience here in Colorado that libertarians are mostly conservatives who disagree with the Republican Party.

Libertarianism isn't conservatism, although it's admittedly closer to conservatism than liberalism. Anyway; it's pretty silly to decide that I can't possibly be a Libertarian because of something done by some conservative in Colorado. I identify with the Libertarian party because I agree with its stance in...say...80-90 percent of the issues. When I disagree with the Libertarians I sometimes lean to the right (as with immigration) and sometimes to the left (as with the environment).

And I consider conservatives to be simple-minded because all they offer are simple solutions to complex problems.

So what was your complex solution again?

It's been my experience that most conservative positions are borne out of a combination of selfishness ("I've got mine, to hell with everyone else"), ignorance (lack of basic knowledge of the facts behind a specific issue), and paranoia (fear of those who think, look, love, or worship differently than they do).

I don't think I need lessons in tolerance from someone who advocates bulldozing the headquarters of political organizations he disagrees with: [URL="http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=109189&postcount=19"]<read the last paragraph>/URL]

[Miss Vickie]

So you don't care about America but you think it's okay to live off the wealth confiscated from its citizens? That sounds a bit arrogant, in my opinion.

Um. Do you think that putting words in someone's mouth is a good debate tactic, Ryan? You're smarter than that.

He never said that he didn't care about America. He said that God was more important to him -- big difference. Saying my kids are more important to me than my dog doesn't mean I don't love her or care about her welfare. It just means that I care more about my kids -- because that's how I've set my priorities. Same with my job. I love my job, my co-workers, my patients. But my highest priority in life? My husband and kids. And yes, their safety and security is more important to me than my country. You betcha. Someday, if and when you ever decide to have kids, you'll hopefully understand that. Until then you'll just have to trust this parent that for most of us, our family is Priority One.

DJewell also never said it was "okay" to live on someone else's dime. You don't know his financial situation, Ryan, and it's unfair of you to presume. But as others have pointed out, while it's ideal to wait until you can afford kids, the reality is that accidents happen and people have children they cannot afford. When that happens, what are our options as a society? Put the kids in orphanages? Farm them out to wealthy couples? Put people in debtor's prisons? No birth control is 100% effective, and most young people do not have access to surgical sterilization and so have to make do with even more imperfect forms of contraception -- options which FAIL, even with perfect use.

I have taken care of a lot of poor women in the nearly 17 years I've been involved with women having babies, and not ONE of them ever said, "You know, I just decided to have another baby to scam the system. I can't WAIT to have another." It's usually at the very least a stressful situation, and in some cases it's tragic. But they make the best of it, using the resources available to them until they can get on their feet. I realize you're more of a Libertarian and maybe you'd rather we not have safety nets for people. But in the 41+ years I've been on the planet, I've seen those safety nets literally save lives and move people from poverty into financial solvency. I'm glad they're there because I think that a healthy society takes care of its own.

[Ryan]

Ryan, I wish that this issue was that simple. You remind me of the people who say, "Is it right for people to eat so much when they are already overweight?" "Why don't they just eat less and exercise?" I know that you are an intelligent man and so you have to realize that it is not really that simple. Did you know that when a child is molested that sometimes that early exposure to sex increases the chances of that child engaging in sexual activity at an early age and bringing children into this world? Did you know that when a child doesn't get the attention they need at home that they sometimes turn to sex for that attention and affection? Did you know that a lot of people abuse alcohol and drugs to numb themselves against the pain from abuse? Did you know that many people also suffer from mental illness as a result of child abuse? Did you know that a lot of poor people are dealing with those issues? Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if children weren't abused, men didn't beat women (or women beat men) and people didn't get addicted to drugs and neglect their children?

Yes, it seems simple. If a person can't take care of themselves then they shouldn't have children. I'm telling you that it's NOT that simple. I invite you to volunteer at a homeless shelter or work with children who have been abused. Perhaps that would help you understand the complexity of the issue and how the things that happen to children (who are illegal or not) affect their whole life and changes who they are. I wish that more people understood how some of these social problems are connected.

I have worked with so many children who were either abused or have parents who are addicted to drugs. These kids are struggling and they need help or they will become another statistic. I have worked with many women who have been victims of domestic violence and they were abused as children. I wish that more people felt so passionately about THOSE issues. If you want to talk about taxpayers dollars...do you know how much money child abuse and domestic violence costs taxpayers every year? Does that concern you at all? I have lots of information on these issues. If you're interested then please let me know.

A person choosing to have a bunch of kids for political or religious reasons is not the same thing as a victim of abuse being out of control.

[djewell]

No hasidic children are accidents. we intentionally have many kids.

and i did say that i don't really care for the US.

[Donna]

I can't speak for Vickie, but I don't think she meant to imply that Hasidic children are accidents. (At least I did not read her post that way.) The problem I am seeing looking in on this debate is that some folks are looking at this from a political standpoint, while others are looking in from a religious standpoint. It's a cliche, but true, that politics and religion make strange bed fellows.

That being said, I want to say thanks to everyone who are sharing their viewpoints. I tend to be rather confused much of the time when it comes to both politics and religion. (Hell, I am pretty confused about a lot of things, these are just the top two on an ever increasing list.) So any chance to read how others feel is food for thought for me.

[Ryan]

Um. Do you think that putting words in someone's mouth is a good debate tactic, Ryan? You're smarter than that.

He never said that he didn't care about America. He said that God was more important to him -- big difference.

I wasn't putting words in his mouth. He made these comments earlier in this thread, and just acknowledged this in another post.

DJewell also never said it was "okay" to live on someone else's dime. You don't know his financial situation, Ryan, and it's unfair of you to presume. But as others have pointed out, while it's ideal to wait until you can afford kids, the reality is that accidents happen and people have children they cannot afford. When that happens, what are our options as a society? Put the kids in orphanages? Farm them out to wealthy couples? Put people in debtor's prisons? No birth control is 100% effective, and most young people do not have access to surgical sterilization and so have to make do with even more imperfect forms of contraception -- options which FAIL, even with perfect use.

I specifically asked him if he thought it was right for people to keep having kids they couldn't afford knowing that taxpayers would have to pick up the tab, and he seemed to defend this on religious grounds (if I misinterpreted your statements, djewell, I apologize and would appreciate a clarification). And, as he just pointed out, these aren't accidental pregnancies.

And I presumed nothing about his financial situation and didn't ask anything about it.

[Ryan]

we lived in poverty in europe, and we're prepared to do it again if necessary, but if america is okay with us "confiscating the wealth of its citizens" so we will continue to do that.

I think that is a good, honest answer. And I respect that.

[Miss Vickie]

I can't speak for Vickie, but I don't think she meant to imply that Hasidic children are accidents. (At least I did not read her post that way.) The problem I am seeing looking in on this debate is that some folks are looking at this from a political standpoint, while others are looking in from a religious standpoint. It's a cliche, but true, that politics and religion make strange bed fellows.

Well said. And the term "accident" is in the eye of the beholder. Or, in this case, parent. If a Hasidic parent doesn't see their kid as an accident then, to them, they're not. And that's what's most important to me -- how parents perceive their kids -- because ultimately it affects how they parent them.

And yes, I think you're right. Some folks see it as a religious issue, some as a political one. So I think it's almost like we're talking about it in two languages, which makes understanding difficult.

[djewell]

What a turn this thread has taken!

Maybe I was being a bit cryptic. Note the almost perfect formatting of this post, it means this is an official statement of djewell.

1) There's never been, to my knowledge, an 'unplanned child' from a chassidic family that was chassidic from birth.

2)I don't know how it spills over into the political side of things, but 'ultra-orthodox' Jews will continue to have as many children as possible. This is a commandment from G-d.

3)I apologize for hijacking the thread.

[MissToodles]

What a turn this thread has taken!

Maybe I was being a bit cryptic. Note the almost perfect formatting of this post, it means this is an official statement of djewell.

1) There's never been, to my knowledge, an 'unplanned child' from a chassidic family that was chassidic from birth.

2)I don't know how it spills over into the political side of things, but 'ultra-orthodox' Jews will continue to have as many children as possible. This is a commandment from G-d.

3)I apologize for hijacking the thread.

Not to be controversial but I think no one should have (meaning any creed, race or religion) lots of children. Weren't these laws written in a time when most lived off the land, during the great agrarian revolution? There were many hands needed to tend to crops, to take care of and kill animals. I don't know why so many children are needed today, especially with finite resources. I know accidents happen and some things are planned but it seems selfish to have so many kids intentionally. Please don't flame me! I'm not personally attacking you, DJ.

[EbonySSBBW]

A person choosing to have a bunch of kids for political or religious reasons is not the same thing as a victim of abuse being out of control.


Then you agree with social services to help families who are poor and legal? Or are we back to the deserving poor vs the undeserving poor? And I keep hearing you talk about how illegal immigrants are sucking taxpayers dollars. I haven't heard any real numbers on how much of your tax money is going to pay for illegal immigrants. I can tell you exactly how much money is going to pay for child abuse every year and it's astounding. Child abuse is illegal and sucks taxpayers dollars. Does that issue concern you as much as illegal immigration? If not then why? I'm just curious as to why you get so charged up over this issue but not over these other things that are so tragic and devastating to all Americans either directly or indirectly. It really leads me to believe that there are other reasons behind it.

[GWARrior]

Ryan, you seem worked up over an issue that is pretty tiny compared the others that America faces.

[djewell]

Not to be controversial but I think no one should have (meaning any creed, race or religion) lots of children. Weren't these laws written in a time when most lived off the land, during the great agrarian revolution? There were many hands needed to tend to crops, to take care of and kill animals. I don't know why so many children are needed today, especially with finite resources. I know accidents happen and some things are planned but it seems selfish to have so many kids intentionally. Please don't flame me! I'm not personally attacking you, DJ.

Its ok, i realize this. you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but conveniently i dont have to listen to you because I believe G-d disagrees with you :D

[Paul]

Nurses often do not get enough recognition!

. . . . . . . . .

I believe everyone, rich or poor, immigrant (legal or illegal) or citizen should be helped by society when they truely need society's help as long as the person seeking society's help is not using or taking advantage of that society (i.e. they truly need the help).

Kindness as oppossed to unkindness and insensitivity is what is needed to build a just society. If you have been following events in France this past winter they have encountered a lot of problems with their Muslim immigrants which I believe have parallels with the illegal immigrants min the US. In Franch the issue with the Muslim immigrants led to riots lating several weeks. Both the Muslims in France and illegal immigrants in the US are not seen as full citizens in the country in which they are living. The Mexicans are not seen as citizens because they are in the US illegally; the Muslims in France are not seen are full citizens because they are made to live in seperate Muslim neighbourhoods in Paris apart from the rest of the French society. I fear that the riots which occured in Paris by the Muslims early in the new year will also happen in the US with the illegal immigrants in the US largely for the same reasons--both Muslims in France and illegal immigrants are not allowed to be full citizens in the country they live in. (BTW I am refering to the riots which took palce before the Danish cartoon issue played out.) Regardless of wether you feel illegal immigrants should be granted citizenship or not in the US, I fear that just as the exclusion/segregation of the French Muslims from full participation in French society lead to riots in Paris so the illegal immigration in the US will lead to riots. The riots in the US will occur because the illegal immigrants are prevented from full participation in the society in which they are living.

I don't agree with illegal immigration, but threatening mass deportation back to Mexico (or any other country) is not the solution; I believe that will only lead to riots. A humane solution needs to be found to solve the illegal immigration. Maybe the US could set up a process wereby the illegal immigrants already in the US could begin a process (maybe taking several years) to finally become legal citizens. If some humane solution to the illegal immigration is not found the outcome may be riots. This happened in Paris when the Muslims were prevented from becoming full members within French society. The day of protest by the illegal immigrants in the US could just as easily turn into riots. I don't know what the solution should be. I do believe that if a solution is not found the outcome may lead to rioting.

[Ryan]

Then you agree with social services to help families who are poor and legal? Or are we back to the deserving poor vs the undeserving poor?

I'd certainly be willing to discuss short term help for people who fall on hard times. But the deserving poor vs undeserving poor will always be an issue for me. We shouldn't be subsidizing people of sound mind who simply choose to be a burden on the taxpayers of this country.

And I keep hearing you talk about how illegal immigrants are sucking taxpayers dollars. I haven't heard any real numbers on how much of your tax money is going to pay for illegal immigrants.

A number of my comments about illegal immigrants and social services were an attempt to get another member to answer a question about seemingly contradictory statements. But I think it's inappropriate for an illegal immigrant to receive any social services at all, no matter how little the cost. It's the principle I'm concerned with, not the dollar amount.

I can tell you exactly how much money is going to pay for child abuse every year and it's astounding. Child abuse is illegal and sucks taxpayers dollars. Does that issue concern you as much as illegal immigration? If not then why?

Yes.

I'm just curious as to why you get so charged up over this issue but not over these other things that are so tragic and devastating to all Americans either directly or indirectly.

Are you suggesting that I can't talk about one political issue unless I simultaneously start or participate in debates about every single other political issue in the world? And in case you haven't noticed, I'm hardly the only person here at Dimensions who is talking about illegal immigration instead of child abuse. There's a reason for that: Illegal immigration is currently one of the biggest political issues in this country.

It really leads me to believe that there are other reasons behind it.

And what would those reasons be?

[Ryan]

Nurses often do not get enough recognition!

. . . . . . . . .

I believe everyone, rich or poor, immigrant (legal or illegal) or citizen should be helped by society when they truely need society's help as long as the person seeking society's help is not using or taking advantage of that society (i.e. they truly need the help).

Kindness as oppossed to unkindness and insensitivity is what is needed to build a just society. If you have been following events in France this past winter they have encountered a lot of problems with their Muslim immigrants which I believe have parallels with the illegal immigrants min the US. In Franch the issue with the Muslim immigrants led to riots lating several weeks. Both the Muslims in France and illegal immigrants in the US are not seen as full citizens in the country in which they are living. The Mexicans are not seen as citizens because they are in the US illegally; the Muslims in France are not seen are full citizens because they are made to live in seperate Muslim neighbourhoods in Paris apart from the rest of the French society. I fear that the riots which occured in Paris by the Muslims early in the new year will also happen in the US with the illegal immigrants in the US largely for the same reasons--both Muslims in France and illegal immigrants are not allowed to be full citizens in the country they live in. (BTW I am refering to the riots which took palce before the Danish cartoon issue played out.) Regardless of wether you feel illegal immigrants should be granted citizenship or not in the US, I fear that just as the exclusion/segregation of the French Muslims from full participation in French society lead to riots in Paris so the illegal immigration in the US will lead to riots. The riots in the US will occur because the illegal immigrants are prevented from full participation in the society in which they are living.

I don't agree with illegal immigration, but threatening mass deportation back to Mexico (or any other country) is not the solution; I believe that will only lead to riots. A humane solution needs to be found to solve the illegal immigration. Maybe the US could set up a process wereby the illegal immigrants already in the US could begin a process (maybe taking several years) to finally become legal citizens. If some humane solution to the illegal immigration is not found the outcome may be riots. This happened in Paris when the Muslims were prevented from becoming full members within French society. The day of protest by the illegal immigrants in the US could just as easily turn into riots. I don't know what the solution should be. I do believe that if a solution is not found the outcome may lead to rioting.

If we can't deport illegal immigrants for fear of riots, then the only remaining "solution" is to repeal all immigration laws and open our borders. Is that what you want?

[Wayne_Zitkus]

If we can't deport illegal immigrants for fear of riots, then the only remaining "solution" is to repeal all immigration laws and open our borders. Is that what you want?
Someone last century had a "final solution", too, Ryan. And over six million people died as a result....

The solution lies somewhere between deporting millions and completely opening the borders. And it's up to all of us to find it.

[Mini]

Its ok, i realize this. you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but conveniently i dont have to listen to you because I believe G-d disagrees with you :D

Tell that to the dudes who think non-believers should have their heads chopped off.

[djewell]

Tell that to the dudes who think non-believers should have their heads chopped off.

I dont talk to extremist muslims.

[Ryan]

Someone last century had a "final solution", too, Ryan. And over six million people died as a result....

Do you actually believe that enforcing immigration laws is the moral or legal equivalent of the Holocaust? Telling somebody that they have to respect our sovereignty and come here the legal way is no different than attempting to exterminate an entire racial or religious group?

First you compare border security to the Berlin Wall. Now the Holocaust. What's next? The purges of Stalinist Russia? Or maybe the part in the Bible where God wipes out most of the human race by making it rain for 40 days and 40 nights? Are you going to build an ark to save all the illegal immigrants, Wayne?

The solution lies somewhere between deporting millions and completely opening the borders. And it's up to all of us to find it.

Should we enforce our immigration laws or not? If we won't enforce them, why have them?

[djewell]

My moneys on the flood :rolleyes:

[Ryan]

My moneys on the flood :rolleyes:

Maybe he can change his user name to Noah_Zitkus?

[djewell]

Its very interesting, the story of Noach (noah). i mean, G-d saved the world on the merit of a NON JEW gasp!