god - does it exist?

[LeedsFeeder]

Now here's one.

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...

[Jay West Coast]

Now here's one.

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...

Nuh-uh. No you di-in't.

Reason to me God doesn't exist.

[Jack Skellington]

Wow, this not inflammatory at all. ;)

You obviously cannot prove faith.

You either believe or you don't. We of course have historic records of different faiths, like the Bible and ancient sculptures of Goddesses like the famous Venus of Willendorf. But that doesn't prove they exist/existed. Only that people believed they did.

For you a higher power doesn't exist and that's fine. What isn't cool is insulting others for having faith. Like they say, to each their own.

[rainyday]

Yes.

But the road to faith is something you have to climb for yourself. No one else can haul you up there. Spectacular view at the top of the mountain though if you can get there.

[Zandoz]

I can't even prove I exist...and what I believe is of no consequence to anyone but me.

[Mini]

Faith exists outside the realm of proof. That's why it's called faith.

[Tina]

You know that's impossible. Just as impossible as it is for you to prove God *doesn't* exist. Anyway, the point has never been *proof,* the point is faith. People should believe as they choose to believe. That, too, is what it's all bout, IMO.

[HappyFatChick]

HE does exist. And it's like proving love. It's all about faith. You can go to
www.DoesGodExist.org/ for an interesting scientific story.

Do you want to be happier? Do you want peace of mind? Do you want someone you can talk to 24/7? Do you want comfort in time of strife?
Do you want someone who will never leave you or forsake you? Do you want to go to heaven?

If you answer yes to even one of these questions, the choice is simple.
For me, it was to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Once I did that, my life was changed for the best. I will never be the same. The choice is yours. God doesn't push anyone.

[Mini]

Well, he does kinda threaten you with the whole, you-burn-forever-if-you-don't-believe thing.

[SamanthaNY]

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...

The fact that you're even asking the question indicates that you're not quite as sure as you say you are. You already know it can't be proven (or disproven), so you're either a shit-stirrer, or you're afraid that the faithful are possibly on to something.

You've made other Leaps Of Faith in your life... trusting in someone, telling someone you love them and hoping to hear it back, attempting a task you didn't think you could do, depending on someone to do his/her job... so why is this one so much different?

Think about it - what's the harm in believing? With it, you get support and comfort for the rest of your life. Without it, you get... what?

[LarryTheShiveringChipmunk]

SOMETHING created all this and the rules physics etc follow.

Whether it's God, Allah, Zeus, or Shatner who knows. I prefer to think that if there is a sensient supreme being, we're just his grade school science project and he's having one helluva giggle.

[TheSadeianLinguist]

Now here's one.

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...

How do you know anything? :)

[Tiger's_Lily]

Now here's one.

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...

It's an interesting thought, but hardly believable!

[rainyday]

I agree with Sammie’s post above. And people have always struggled to believe. I don't think it's meant to be easy. Here’s an example of that struggle from Jesus’ time:

John 20:24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

(Here’s the rest of John 20 where the above is taken from: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020&version=31)

[1300 Class]

I believe god exists. That is all I have to say on the matter.

[Littleghost]

Silly rabbit, pulpit pounding is for those with pulpits.
If you're not familiar with the term faith, here's a refresher.
Faith:Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Anyone who says that they have evidence one way or the other is sellin' some serious crazy or cruisin' down a certain river in Egypt. So just let it be.

Still waiting for the return of Philosophy,
--Littleghost

[Thrifty McGriff]

I'm an agnostic. Thus far, there is no way of proving or disproving the existence of a higher power/creator, and therefore, for me, it is completely illogical to choose one way or the other. Yes it is "sitting on the fence" but sitting on the fence isn't always a bad thing.

I don't need faith to be happy or to have peace of mind as I do not fear death as much as some might (I'm sure people here will try to say otherwise), but I'm not saying I'm happy either. For me, that is damn near impossible when your own species abuses itself regularly. I forget the exact quote but it is something like, "As long as some are oppressed, nobody is free."

To rely on something like faith for happiness, well, that just isn't my cup of tea. I should be capable of finding happiness within myself and myself alone.

[HappyFatChick]

The problem is no one can find happiness in himself. Yes, they can be happy with themselves, but true happiness cannot be attained without God.

He creates us with a hole in our soul (mind/will/emotions) that only He can fill.

[Thrifty McGriff]

Please don't preach. If I am guilty of the same, then crucify me, but you shouldn't be doing it yourself.

[Fuzzy]

I think Elvis found happiness within himself. Therefore, Elvis was God. ;)

[Santaclear]

Here - a quick poem for those with questions about spirituality:

The Lord is early
the Lord is late
He has a very important date.

[Ashley]

The problem is no one can find happiness in himself. Yes, they can be happy with themselves, but true happiness cannot be attained without God.

He creates us with a hole in our soul (mind/will/emotions) that only He can fill.

It's lovely that you think this way, and that you find peace in your beliefs. I think that this is truly one of the great hallmarks of any faith--that the faithful find happiness and tranquility in that which they believe.

HOWEVER, I, for one, find plenty of happiness in myself and in my life as an agnostic. I don't rule out the possibility of there being a creator, or even that, as you believe, He is God and His son is Jesus Christ. However, I also don't rule out the possibility that faith is an idea constructed by man for the sole purpose of finding peace.

I am happy in my life, and I don't feel that I need to find a deity to believe in in order to be truly happy. If that means that I'm going to your hell, then so be it.

[EbonySSBBW]

HE does exist. And it's like proving love. It's all about faith. You can go to
www.DoesGodExist.org/ for an interesting scientific story.

Do you want to be happier? Do you want peace of mind? Do you want someone you can talk to 24/7? Do you want comfort in time of strife?
Do you want someone who will never leave you or forsake you? Do you want to go to heaven?

If you answer yes to even one of these questions, the choice is simple.
For me, it was to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Once I did that, my life was changed for the best. I will never be the same. The choice is yours. God doesn't push anyone.

For the first time, HappyFatChick, I agree with you. I have gone through some very difficult times in my life (starting from childhood) and I would not be here today if it were not for God. God is in my mind, my heart, and my soul. He is the reason why I am a social worker. I can't see others suffering and not try to help. I believe that He works through me to help others. He has filled me with such compassion and empathy and I am so grateful that He loves me and has blessed me so much.

I have a question for you. You said that you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior so why do you always speak so hatefully towards illegal immigrants? Are they not God's children too? Are they not your neighbors? I just really want to understand where you are coming from. Mark 12:29-31 NIV says 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."

There are at least 12 other places where "love your neighbor" is mentioned in the Bible. I am not judging you because ultimately we all will have to answer for the things we have done in our lives, but I just want to understand because it really makes me sad to know that you love God yet you are filled with such anger towards illegal immigrants. When I read the Bible, I read many stories in which Jesus has shown such compassion towards others. That is why I constantly pray for God to make me a better person and remove my defects of character. I know that I will always be a work in progress but I also know that God equals love (He loves us so much that He gave His only son) and compassion (when asked, He forgives our sins), not hate and insensitivity.

You don't usually respond to my posts but I really hope that you will this time.

[Vince]

The philosoher knows which questions are profitable and which pointless to ask. Clearly, believing something doesn't make it true. It is possible that everyone is mistaken about certain things. That was true about the earth, the stars and the planets until about 400 years ago.

If we asked a different question we could examine it. Suppose we asked if there was any evidence for a particular thing. We could establish what constitutes evidence and what is proof. When it comes to atomic particles we cannot see them but we can believe in them because of certain tests. Is there any test that can be established to demonstrate anything at all about what is being discussed? Philosophers would also insist that concepts be defined. It just so happens that we use words that we think we know what they mean but when we come to define them well, it is a challenge. So, what is this it that is being discussed? When you establish that then you can ask the question about evidence and what constitutes proof.

I smile when I see the believers. Heck, if all that stuff were true and it was convincing I suppose there would be a huge rush to be at the front of the line. In the meantime, I witness countless people crying at funerals.

An interesting thing about the universe. Is it possible for anything to exist outside the universe? Does Heaven, if it exists, have a location? There obviously are going to be some things that have no answers. That some seem convinced they are right about beliefs is something psychologists can study but it proves nothing at all except that a lot of people need to believe something in order to find peace in this world. The physical universe is much more amazing than anything written in books from millennia ago. The closest Galaxy is 2.31 million light years away. You can just faintly see it in the night sky if you know where to look. Imagine that the light takes millions of years to get here. How far away is that when light travels at 186,000 miles per second? We really have no idea. Oh, we can calculate that distance but it has no meaning at all. There might be billions of galaxies out there and the light has taken billions of years to reach the earth. What an amazing universe we live in. Physicists and theologians talk about the laws of physics and not the usual stories written by relatively ignorant men thousands of years ago. No one then had a clue about the universe, matter or the human brain. Today we have a far clearer understanding of the physical universe and our place in it. Religion is one of those things that many elect to follow and I guess countries like the United States guarantee the right to choose your own belief system. Einstein did say something about the capacity for ignorance being unlimited. I wonder what idea of a divinity those brilliant scientists have. Paul Davies is a physicist who writes about God and his concept is vastly different from what is found in the bible or other such books.

[ripley]

Perhaps someday, Vince, man will look back at the people who scoffed at faith in God the same way we today see the people that 400 years ago just would not admit that the sun didn't go 'round the flat earth.


Silly unbelievers. ;)

[Vince]

I have so many questions about what people believe and never get any answers.

God is supposed to be good. He created everything. Then how come there is evil in the world? Well, the Christians have to blame the devil because they cannot blame their creator. This just doesn't make sense to me. When a baby dies or you lose a loved one there is always some 'explanation'. However, when you look into it is an excuse and not an explanation. There is never any reason. People believe a lot of foolish things. The awful thing is they sometimes give their lives for this foolishness. Witness 911. Those muslims prayed to Allah when they guided those jets into history.

Some say that Christ came to save the world. Yeah, sure.

Over to you Ripley.

[kilo riley]

Yes.

But the road to faith is something you have to climb for yourself. No one else can haul you up there. Spectacular view at the top of the mountain though if you can get there.


well said :)

[ripley]

Perhaps someday, Vince, man will look back at the people who scoffed at faith in God the same way we today see the people that 400 years ago just would not admit that the sun didn't go 'round the flat earth.


Silly unbelievers. ;)



I just read it back, and man is that garbled, and I'm past the edit time. Oh well. :p

[ripley]

Like rainy said (and a lot better than I can :) ) faith is a personal thing, Vince. It's not easy. People that have faith are not weaker than everyone else. In fact, often, they are required to be stronger. It is work to sustain.

Yes, bad things happen in the world. You seem to be saying we should blame God for them. I am not a theologist, I can't explain why there is evil in the world. But instead of blaming God, I choose to take succor from Him.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

I think Elvis found happiness within himself. Therefore, Elvis was God. ;)

I believe Pete Townshend is god incarnate!! :D
http://www.stuedli.ch/Pete_Townshend.jpg



And Stevie Nicke is the Goddess:D
http://www.sydentcent.com.au/files/events/Stevie%20Nicks%2006%20310x310.jpg

[rainyday]

And Stevie Nicke is the Goddess
And I believe Sandie worships that Stevie Nicks picture. :p

Ripster, not too garbled. Came through just fine.

And thanks, Kilo.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

And I believe Sandie worships that Stevie Nicks picture. :p

shhhhhhhhhhhh nobody's suppose to know. lol;)

[Santaclear]

Here, here's another quick spiritual poem for my fellow seekers:

God is flakey
God is late
God is burly
He knows not hate

[Shosh]

I am a once a month observer of shabbat. I work with pretty religious Jews who are always trying to bring me over to the dark side, but it all comes down to the fact that I am too bloody lazy to be religious!:D Susannah

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Here, here's another quick spiritual poem for my fellow seekers:

God is flakey
God is late
God is burly
He knows not hate


Here's one for ya:

god is great
god is good
thank you god
for this food

(see good and food are suppose to rhyme)LOL

[Santaclear]

Here's one for ya:

god is great
god is good
thank you god
for this food

(see good and food are suppose to rhyme)LOL

Very good, Sandie! :) :eat1: You will surely go to Heaven.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Very good, Sandie! :) :eat1: You will surely go to Heaven.

Dear Santa,

I've been a very bad girl this year. What can I do to ensure that I will get what I want for x-mas?

Love,
Sandie

[Santaclear]

Dear Santa,

I've been a very bad girl this year. What can I do to ensure that I will get what I want for x-mas?

Love,
Sandie

Bad? No matter. Post rump pics in the Clubhouse.

[Sandie_Zitkus]

Bad? No matter. Post rump pics in the Clubhouse.

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

But Santa mommy always told me to be a good girl. Did mommy lie?????? *sniff*:confused:

[Santaclear]

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

But Santa mommy always told me to be a good girl. Did mommy lie?????? *sniff*:confused:

No, she didn't lie, sweetheart. Dry your eyes. That was last century. 21st century will be a real shocker.

[FitChick]

Now here's one.

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...

Many thousands of years ago, a Book was written. This Book foretold that the Jewish people, as miniscule as we were then and always have been, would never be annihilated. Attempts would be made, repeatedly and aggressively, but in the 3500 years since that Book was authored, the Jewish people remain while their enemies for the most part have been themselves wiped out.

All of this fulfills to the letter the prophecies of that old Book from 3500 years ago.

I have read and studied that old Book intensely for many years, and I can tell you that the predictions in that Book as to the history of the Jewish people, has been fulfilled to the letter (except of course for end time events yet to come.)

Can you explain how a people as tiny, and with as much going against them as the Jews, is still here apart from the protecting Hand of G-d?

[Paul Fannin]

Now here's one.

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...

I add my humble voice to those who have invited you to exercise faith with the words of James:

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering." (James 1:5-6)

And this too:

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask
God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth of all things."
(Moroni 10:4-5{The Book of Mormom})

Respectfully,

Paul

[LeedsFeeder]

Perhaps someday, Vince, man will look back at the people who scoffed at faith in God the same way we today see the people that 400 years ago just would not admit that the sun didn't go 'round the flat earth.


Silly unbelievers. ;)

Nobody with an interest in the subject thought the earth was flat - Columbus certainly didn't otherwise why sail west trying to get to India which was east and the Greeks had calculated the circumference of the earth 2000 years ago. As for the sun going around the earth - if the catholic church hadn't been so quick to persecute anybody who said otherwise maybe the truth would have come out earlier.

Religious people have killed and persecuted in order to maintain their particular brand of ignorance.

[Santaclear]

Perhaps someday, Vince, man will look back at the people who scoffed at faith in God the same way we today see the people that 400 years ago just would not admit that the sun didn't go 'round the flat earth.
Silly unbelievers. ;)

Perhaps not, though. Perhaps a lot of things.

[Donna]

Yes.

But the road to faith is something you have to climb for yourself. No one else can haul you up there. Spectacular view at the top of the mountain though if you can get there.

The wonderful thing about the view from the top of that mountain is there are many different paths leading up to that place.

[HappyFatChick]

Ebony- I don't hate illegal aliens, I hate illegal immigration. I hate that almost 20 million people snuck into my country and now my president is being forced to fix the problem that started 30 years ago. I hate what is happening to my country as the result of all this.

I don't hate people. I am one of the most loving people I know. I can love the sinner but hate the sin.

I just feel very passionate about this issue. And am not afraid to say so.

The Bible and God also say to obey and respect the law and our leader. We can spin the Bible to support most of what we believe if we want.

[LarryTheShiveringChipmunk]

I think Elvis found happiness within himself. Therefore, Elvis was God. ;)
Elvis Grbac?

Come on now, we all know Albert Pujols is God.

http://www.qctimes.net/content/articles/2005/10/18/sports/doc43548ee9ef621382296179_thumb.jpg

i wish i could find the HDTV transmission of that home run. The look on George Bush's (41) face is priceless

[EbonySSBBW]

Ebony- I don't hate illegal aliens, I hate illegal immigration. I hate that almost 20 million people snuck into my country and now my president is being forced to fix the problem that started 30 years ago. I hate what is happening to my country as the result of all this.

I don't hate people. I am one of the most loving people I know. I can love the sinner but hate the sin.

I just feel very passionate about this issue. And am not afraid to say so.

The Bible and God also say to obey and respect the law and our leader. We can spin the Bible to support most of what we believe if we want.

Yes, the Bible does say to obey and respect the law but the Bible also says that it is not YOU who should judge others. One of my favorite passages in the Bible is Matthew 7:1-5 and it says 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

No one is this world is perfect. Isn't it so wonderful that we have a forgiving God? He accepts us with all of our imperfections. We are ALL sinners and He loves us and forgives our sins.

It is true that people can use religion and the Bible to support many different things but when you have God in your heart there usually isn't room for hatefulness and ugliness. You were insinuating that I was using the Bible to support illegal immigration but that is just not true. The fact that I have compassion for humans, illegal or not, does not mean that I am using the Bible to support illegal immigration.

You stated that you don't hate people and that you don't hate illegal immigrants; you hate illegal immigration. Let me share with you some of the things that you have written in the past days (I have just copied and pasted).

"Parts of this country have gone to hell in the past 10 years. The southwest is a disaster. Where else can illiterate, penniless people come and demand WE change to accomodate THEM?"

"I'm watching the news and this illegal thing has me furious again. Illegals are ruining our country! Their gangs which are out of control in CA and FL are chopping off hands/mutilating children. Filling jails. The 2nd generation has the highest school dropout and pregnancy rate."

"Enough is enough. We have been a friend to Mexico. No more. Seal the borders. Deport the illegals. In fact, I thing we should


*********** BOYCOTT MEXICAN PRODUCTS!! *****************

"In view of yesterday's illegal alien march, I have an idea that might appease everyone. Since yesterday's day without an illegal alien was semi-successful, how about a year without an illegal alien? Then if that succeeds, how about a lifetime without illegal aliens? They can move their protests back home to Mexico and try mob action there. I'm sure it will be fine with their government."

"I'm watching some big-mouth idiot named Javier Rodriguez(one of the organizers of the May Day walkout) talking about today's massive demonstrations. He's demanding unconditional amnesty for the up to 20 million illegal aliens who snuck in here. Illegal aliens are demanding rights to our healthcare, schools,welfare, and foodstamps. Try doing that in Mexico. Their attitude of entitlement disgusts me. And his attitude is not getting my empathy. I wish the INS would do it's job and drop some huge nets over these people and deport them. How arrogant can people get?? And what excuse could INS possibly have for not doing their job and arresting these lawbreakers? Especially when they flaunt their illegal selves in our faces??"

"Friday- I have no idea what percentage was illegal. I don't care. If it was even one illegal alien, that's enough for me."

HappyFatChick, in what I have read you were not talking about illegal immigration. You were talking about illegal immigrants and you were calling them names and speaking in a very hateful tone. Sometimes it is a good idea to take inventory of ourselves and really think about the things that we say and do. To me, loving God is about loving others, even when they are not perfect...because none of us are.

[RedHead]

Okay....first off as so many others have already said; there is no way to prove faith.

I have a question for you.....can you prove He doesn't exsist? If you can I will renounce my belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Next.....why is it that people look at Religion and think that is the representation of what Christ wanted....there is corruption everywhere and the church(s) are no different...ultimate power corrupts ultimately. I would agree that there are those who have cloaked themselves with God in order to justify their own ends, i.e.; King Richard, Osama, Taliban, Palestine...among many others!

So as I have said before; please don't use a broad stroked brush to paint all...because then you have just taken away from those that have given everything for their faith, i.e.; Billy Graham, Mother Theresa, Patrick White and many, many others!


Religious people have killed and persecuted in order to maintain their particular brand of ignorance.

[RedHead]

Ebony and HappyFatChick....I have a couple of comments that I hope will be well received.

First I too have studied the bible for years; I was a bible study leader for 10 years. Although right now I am no longer attending church on a regular basis which is a story for another time. I do have the knowledge and background to comment on the scriptures.

So often I see the verse quoted about that we are not to judge one another....the actual scripture when read with a commentary and in the original language (yes, I have done that) actually says something more like "Judge not others, unless you too wish to be judged with the same method"

Basically meaning that if you judge someone; God is going to use the same logic/tact to judge you. If you are okay with that then do it; but be warned.

I say this only because so many have thrown this particular scripture out regarding everything from abortion to homosexuality and it always frustrates me that it is not taken in context.

I too have spouted some hasty and rather unsettling things online; I won't condemn HFC for that. But I will also say that as much as you believe and have faith; if you can reach no one because you have offended all, how is that carrying out the great commandment?

Thanks

[HappyFatChick]

Eb-My comments are not about hate. They are not sugar-coated to avoid offending anyone. They are no-frills truth and to the point.

I called one illegal alien a big-mouthed idiot. I was appalled after watching the interview with his arrogance spitting in our faces.

If you support criminals illegally entering my country and demanding rights, you are more tolerant than I am. I give you that.

I'm sure you are a very nice person who writes very eloquently.
I am anti-illegal alien/anti-illegal immigration.

[RedVelvet]

Well, he does kinda threaten you with the whole, you-burn-forever-if-you-don't-believe thing.

But remember, in spite of this fact, he loves you so much.

A strange sort of love.

In fact, in some groups it doesnt matter how fine a person you are, you will burn if you don't believe.....

Which suggests a certain insecurity on the part of God. I personally don't need to be worshipped or even believed in in order to prevent me from setting someone on fire for eternity, but thats just me.

[LarryTheShiveringChipmunk]

as for "hell" here's my belief...

I'm not religious or believe in a religion. Personally I think a religion starts as a cult/scam and then those who know the truth die without telling the followers they were duped (for the Christians one may point to St. Paul as a possible architect here, changing the way the early Christians taught/led into the religion we have today)......but I digress.

IF God is an arbitator/judge for the afterlife, and there is a naughty bin, the naughty bin is chosen by the naughty one who rejects God. Hell is an absence of God and his/her/it's glory/love/free cheetos.

[EbonySSBBW]

Ebony and HappyFatChick....I have a couple of comments that I hope will be well received.

First I too have studied the bible for years; I was a bible study leader for 10 years. Although right now I am no longer attending church on a regular basis which is a story for another time. I do have the knowledge and background to comment on the scriptures.

So often I see the verse quoted about that we are not to judge one another....the actual scripture when read with a commentary and in the original language (yes, I have done that) actually says something more like "Judge not others, unless you too wish to be judged with the same method"

Basically meaning that if you judge someone; God is going to use the same logic/tact to judge you. If you are okay with that then do it; but be warned.

I say this only because so many have thrown this particular scripture out regarding everything from abortion to homosexuality and it always frustrates me that it is not taken in context.

I too have spouted some hasty and rather unsettling things online; I won't condemn HFC for that. But I will also say that as much as you believe and have faith; if you can reach no one because you have offended all, how is that carrying out the great commandment?

Thanks

Red, that is what I understand it to mean. I'm not sure what you thought I thought it meant. My point is that none of us are pure so I would think that, logically, none of us would want to be judged the way that we so easily pass judgement onto others. We all have dirty kitchens in some way or another and a sin is a sin no matter how big or small.

[Cat]

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...

It all depends upon how one defines "god."

[EbonySSBBW]

Eb-My comments are not about hate. They are not sugar-coated to avoid offending anyone. They are no-frills truth and to the point.

I called one illegal alien a big-mouthed idiot. I was appalled after watching the interview with his arrogance spitting in our faces.

If you support criminals illegally entering my country and demanding rights, you are more tolerant than I am. I give you that.

I'm sure you are a very nice person who writes very eloquently.
I am anti-illegal alien/anti-illegal immigration.

Merriam-Webster's main definition of hate:

1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy

[fatgirlflyin]

Now here's one.

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...


Oh man this is a can of worms you just opened up...
I wasn't raised in a religious household so I dont know much about the Bible and God. Somedays I believe there's a God, other days I believe in the theory of evolution.

I dont support organized religion tho

[RedHead]

Red, that is what I understand it to mean. I'm not sure what you thought I thought it meant. My point is that none of us are pure so I would think that, logically, none of us would want to be judged the way that we so easily pass judgement onto others. We all have dirty kitchens in some way or another and a sin is a sin no matter how big or small.

Ebony, I must have misunderstood then. I thought when reading your original post that basically you were saying to HFC that she shouldn't judge anyone. I totally agree about the dirty kitchen; and I too have been judged rather harshly by those that would consider them servants of God...it saddens me because by doing so, they have set themselves on a pillar that is made of sand and it will crumble before them on judgement day. I am very sensitive to any inference of legality.

[TheSadeianLinguist]

Here's your proof, dorks! :p (http://www.devilducky.com/media/45320/)

[Tina]

Next.....why is it that people look at Religion and think that is the representation of what Christ wanted....there is corruption everywhere and the church(s) are no different...ultimate power corrupts ultimately. I would agree that there are those who have cloaked themselves with God in order to justify their own ends, i.e.; King Richard, Osama, Taliban, Palestine...among many others!

So as I have said before; please don't use a broad stroked brush to paint all...because then you have just taken away from those that have given everything for their faith, i.e.; Billy Graham, Mother Theresa, Patrick White and many, many others!

Many, many others, including many pastors, bishops priests, etc. To me, God has nothing to do with religion, and religion only has just so much to do with God. The two are very different for me.

[GWARrior]

I hav no religious beliefs and I dont believe in any 'god'.

Religion scares me and upsets me. I think people should be stable enough to handle their lives instead of putting it all in 'god's' hands.

[prickly]

another opportunity to put the boot into loathful religion/god stuff.

most religion/god stuff makes me *snort and *sigh at the sheer stupidity of man in the face of our actual earthly opportunities and the surrounding beauty, as provided by all that evolutionary chemistry and biology. but i have to say i do get just a little worried when i see intelligent people on this board (and the breadth of intelligence here is quite special) talk of god and spout various horseshit from the bible.

anyway, the real bible is the laws of football, and that was only written in the late 1800s.

up the leeds!!!!! that's just for leedsuk, cos i actually want to see watford win as i used to go and watch them as a teenager.

[SamanthaNY]

Crap, you're here? ;)

It's a shame that religion causes you suffer whatever sinus and respiratory ailments you tried to describe. :D

It's your choice to believe what you wish, of course. But isn't it a wee bit arrogant (why am I surprised) to label others who believe as something less than intelligent?

Why is it any skin off your nose whether the people here (intelligently or not) discuss/believe in God or the bible? As long as no one tries to convert you, you should be safe, no?

[ripley]

Nobody with an interest in the subject thought the earth was flat - Columbus certainly didn't otherwise why sail west trying to get to India which was east and the Greeks had calculated the circumference of the earth 2000 years ago. As for the sun going around the earth - if the catholic church hadn't been so quick to persecute anybody who said otherwise maybe the truth would have come out earlier.

Religious people have killed and persecuted in order to maintain their particular brand of ignorance.


I just meant to show by example that beliefs people hold as unassailable are often proved wrong later on.

And do you really think that religious people hold a monopoly on ignorance and persecution and murder? I believe in God, and in the value of goodness. That said...I don't attend church. I don't persecute or kill. I agree that many bad things have been done in the name of religion, but that does not make me turn away.

[LeedsFeeder]

I just meant to show by example that beliefs people hold as unassailable are often proved wrong later on.

I know, unfortunately one of the beliefs some people hold unassiable even now is that people used to think the earth was flat - they didn't.

[RedVelvet]

The problem is the following:

I should, of course, respect people's right to have an opinion and to express it. And I do.

I am not required, on the other hand, to respect the opinion itself.

The problem with discussing religion in this country is that it seems like no one is satisfied with just having their right to have their beliefs respected...they must also have the BELIEF ITSELF respected before they drop their sense of persecution....

thats...tiresome...and unreasonable.

go ahead.....everyone gets to worship what and who they want, as long as they dont try to convert me...just don't expect me to respect a belief that is in itself non-sensical to me....I cant fake that for you.

I mean hell, the only religion I can get behind is earth based witchcraft, odd as that sounds...why? because its about worshipping something one can actually see, feel and experience intimately...and its about, on a fundamental level, the movement of energy, which is observable and measureable.

Also, its gots lots of pretty accoutrement....seems I am shallow that way.

I also, without being the least bit christian, adore Roman Catholic stuff....and collect everything from rosaries to milagros and ex votos....simply because its pretty...simply because its goth.

I can certainly respect that, too.

[ripley]

I know, unfortunately one of the beliefs some people hold unassiable even now is that people used to think the earth was flat - they didn't.


Apparently I chose an bad example in your opinion. Sorry 'bout that. Feel free to get back on topic now. :)

[intro]

Do you want to be happier? Do you want peace of mind? Do you want someone you can talk to 24/7? Do you want comfort in time of strife?
Do you want someone who will never leave you or forsake you? Do you want to go to heaven?


Hmm... interesting. This further proves my theory that many people use god as a substitute for love, or to fill some void inside them.

Not that this is a bad thing! It's just obvious, considering that everybody wants to feel happy and copmplete. Saying that you don't believe in god is just as easy as saying you do. I challenge everyone to actually ANALYZE their "beliefs", rather then having such closed minds. :rolleyes:

Besides, no offence, but I consider religeon a very uncreative thing. You must admit that it is horrifying how many people are stuck in the same rut of a lifstyle. Why not impose "rules" on yourself that fit your needs, and not the needs of some abstract man on a hill. Humans have more potential then that!

(Don't kill me.) :p

[Miss Vickie]

I guess I really don't care much what gets other people through the night. I mean, it's interesting to me, from a purely nosy point of view, but I don't feel the need to pass judgment on what works for them. I think that beliefs such as these are so intensely personal that it's hard to really discuss -- it is for me, anyway.

But I will say this. Whatever beliefs a person has about God, the Universe, and Everything, I'm happy for them. Provided, of course, that they don't impose those beliefs on me. My only problem with fundamentalism is the whole "you're going to hell" aspect and the shoving it in my face that some have done; in fairness, I was once upon a time on the other end of it, and went door to door "selling" my religion. It's not something I'm particularly proud of; I'm much happier now, having my beliefs and allowing others to have theirs. I personally believe in God (more like a nature, God is in everything kind of God), but I know plenty of happy people who don't. I don't think belief in a God, let alone the Judeo Christian God, is a preqrequisite to morality or happiness, although I know that some here would disagree.

But some of the nicest, happiest, kindest people I know are heathens. :)

[Ashley]

I agree, Miss V. I'm completely ok with the fact that some people are intensely religious and that they find solace in their faith. I don't try to convince them that my beliefs are the truth, and I don't try to convert them. Therefore, when someone tells me that my belief is wrong or that I can't possibly be happy unless I choose their faith, I get angry.

My feeling is this: You find happiness your way, and I'll find happiness mine. I won't tell you that the way you do it is wrong, and I won't let you tell me that the way I do it is wrong.

I've read the Bible, and I believe that it has a lot of very important, moral lessons to teach to those who need guidance. However, I don't need to be preached at to be a moral being. And I sure don't need to be condemned for not sharing another's beliefs.

"He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone." John 8:7

[Mini]

I'm pretty sure I'm without sin. Who needs a stoning?

[Tina]

It's been a good, long while since I've been stoned, Mini. But a nice cigar would do just fine. :p

[fatlane]

Even if God only exists as a concept that can be debated, that's an existence. I mean, love exists. Hate exists. Loyalty, patriotism, nationality, betrayal, anger, rage, sadness, grief, joy, peace - all these and many other concepts exist and are real experiences for individual human beings. That some individuals, like Mao f'riinstance, did not feel pity or remorse does not mean those concepts do not exist. They merely exist outside that person's capacity to experience.

Therefore, if you can't experience the concept of God, it does not mean God does not exist. God, in fact, does exist, even if only as a concept.

Now watch people argue on about which concept of God is right... I'll just say God exists, and it's wrong to say otherwise. Not, "you burn in HELL!" wrong, just, "No, that's not the answer to #42" wrong.

[Tina]

True, FLO. People might say, "yeah, but I cannot see God." And in the vein of what you are asserting, well, one cannot see hate or love, either; one can only see the expression of it. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Heck, we cannot see micro waves, sound waves, etc., and obviously those exist, too.

In fact, all that really matters is that those who want to have a relationship with God can. Those who do not don't have to. That whole free will/rock thing that Lilly mentioned comes into play here. You don't want it? I'll never force it on you. You want it, more power to you, but it's not mine to give.

[RedHead]

Many, many others, including many pastors, bishops priests, etc. To me, God has nothing to do with religion, and religion only has just so much to do with God. The two are very different for me.

Tina...have I told you lately that I love you? If not, I do!

[eightyseven]

The fact that this thread exists is reason enough to do away with "Hyde Park." This thread might as well be called "Let's find a way to get everyone frustrated with each other by starting an ambiguous discussion on a topic for which people have an intense amount of unyielding bias and personal passion." It doesn't belong on this forum. And frankly, if I wanted to figure out if G-d really existed or not, I would take a philosophy of religion class and do some soul searching- not consult the internet. There are sites on the internet about how anorexia is a great thing, how gay people should die, and how R.E.M. isn't a good band (hehe).

*Steps off soapbox*

[GeorgeNL]

Now here's one.

I know god doesn't exist and its not a matter of faith its a matter of reason. But... if somebody on here can prove god exists I will sign up to whatever religious craziness they support. Go for it...

Actually you are religious, cause you believe that god does not exist. You cannot proof it, you believe it, and therefore you are religious.

Anyway, we live in a free world, and as long as no one enforces their religion on others, we're free.

[TheSadeianLinguist]

I think a better question is the one that Neitzche posed: Is God still a reckoning force in people's lives?

[GeorgeNL]

I think a better question is the one that Neitzche posed: Is God still a reckoning force in people's lives?
Is Fear still a reckoning force in people's lives?

[Vince]

I would hardly call someone who denies the existence of God religious!

It is fallacious to suggest that God exists because people have a concept of God. Spinoza, the great philosopher, once proposed that God exists because God is perfect, and perfection implies existence.

Man has always tried to explain or account for the world and everything in it. In the past there were so many things that could not be explained. The sun, stars, planets, meteors, seasons, volcanoes, storms, lightning, growth from seeds, the brain, earthquakes, etc. As we came to comprehend these phenomena we have withdrawn the need to have a force behind them that is unknowable. Today it appears there are few mysteries that science has not or will not solve. The one thing left to be explained in the universe itself and the laws of physics being what they are.

That humans grow up in a culture and learn a language and many other things is not surprizing. Many go to church and acquire a religion. It is something important in their lives and they believe it is true. Most people will probably go to their graves with many false beliefs.

I wonder what it is like standing on top of that mountain? The view must be magnificent when the sun is shining. However, it will be difficult to breathe and you will need special clothing to avoid freezing to death.

If we are all sinners then how come God is the only one who forgives those who trespass on Dimensions?

[TheSadeianLinguist]

Is Fear still a reckoning force in people's lives?

Fear of what though? I'm with Neitzche on this: The concept of God doesn't really make a huge impact on a highly-impulsive, technologically-oriented society.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

HE does exist. And it's like proving love. It's all about faith. You can go to
www.DoesGodExist.org/ for an interesting scientific story.

Do you want to be happier? Do you want peace of mind? Do you want someone you can talk to 24/7? Do you want comfort in time of strife?
Do you want someone who will never leave you or forsake you? Do you want to go to heaven?

If you answer yes to even one of these questions, the choice is simple.
For me, it was to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Once I did that, my life was changed for the best. I will never be the same. The choice is yours. God doesn't push anyone.
If this is true, HFC, then why are you so mean, arrogant, and miserable??

I don't say this to be argumentive, but you hardly seem to be a poster child for finding happiness through religion - based on you recent posts, it seems quite the opposite.

Just MHO.

[Wayne_Zitkus]

Can you explain how a people as tiny, and with as much going against them as the Jews, is still here apart from the protecting Hand of G-d?
Dumb luck??

I have reached the conclusion after years of reading and research that all religions are man-made devices - human attempts to explain the unexplainable and exert control over others. And that if there IS a higher power or supreme being out there, it's beyond human capacity to comprehend or understand him (or her).

And it's useless for people of any faith to claim that their religion is better than any other - because no one knows for sure what is and is not truth. There ARE no truths in religion - only what you BELIEVE is true. That's why they're called "religious beliefs".

Just MHO, from an ex-Catholic altar boy.

[HappyFatChick]

Wayne- As I have explained before, I am direct and to the point on my (very passionate) posts. I don't sugar-coat or over-explain anything. These are just my opinions. I don't want to read huge posts. Not even my own.

You can call me all the names you want. I don't care. I am not here to win friends and influence anyone.

You're right about religion. Man-made religion (all the denominations) is different from Christianity (Christ-made.) I didn't find my happiness through religion. I was always very happy. But I became complete when I accepted Jesus Christ.

[GeorgeNL]

Fear of what though? I'm with Neitzche on this: The concept of God doesn't really make a huge impact on a highly-impulsive, technologically-oriented society.

Well, every single tribe came up with some kind of religion. It doesn't matter where you go, all have some kind of religion. And the question is, why did they do that? The main reason probably is, to have an explenation for the unexplainable. That's not just curiosity, but mainly fear of the unknown. E.g. a cover up from the dark unknowns that we (used to) fear.
Nowadays, we think we live a save life, but in the past when people didn't understand illnes, natural disasters, etc., they coped with many fears. No wonder they prayed to all kinds of Gods, hoping that some God would save them from possible disasters.

I think Nietzche is right, technology gives us the illusion that we have control and therefore takes away these uncertainties.

[GeorgeNL]

I've read the Bible, and I believe that it has a lot of very important, moral lessons to teach to those who need guidance. However, I don't need to be preached at to be a moral being. And I sure don't need to be condemned for not sharing another's beliefs.


Actually I think that is also how religion is supposed to be and how it is meant to be: A moral teaching, a guidance.
The rouble arose once governments, many centuries ago, (I thought Spain was the first) realized that religion is a very powerful means to control and manipulate people. This is how contries got their "state religion". Unfortunatley that is still going on everywhere in this world.

[GeorgeNL]

Man has always tried to explain or account for the world and everything in it. In the past there were so many things that could not be explained. The sun, stars, planets, meteors, seasons, volcanoes, storms, lightning, growth from seeds, the brain, earthquakes, etc. As we came to comprehend these phenomena we have withdrawn the need to have a force behind them that is unknowable. Today it appears there are few mysteries that science has not or will not solve. The one thing left to be explained in the universe itself and the laws of physics being what they are.

Yeah right! Does science explain how gravity works? No! It only describes it by means of mathematics. Does science explain how magnetic forces work? Again no! It only describes it by means of mathematics. Does science have an explenation for the matter around us? No, not at all! But we do have quite an accurate mathematical model of the matter around us, so that we can predict it's behavior.

In other words, a description is not an explenation! Even a highly accurate mathematical model doesn't explain it's underlaying mechanism!

Science tries to describes as accurate as possible the world as we experience it, so that we can develop technology to manipulate it. "As we experience it", because in all cases, we are the reference of our observations. As Nietzche already noted "das ding an sich" e.g. the phenomena itself, we cannot unravel. This is a fundamental problem, because an observation is always an interaction, e.g. you cannot "feel" without "touching".

Niels Bohr once said: "Anyone who think he understands physics, hasn't got the slightest notion."


If we are all sinners then how come God is the only one who forgives those who trespass on Dimensions?

Only if you behave Vince. Otherwise he/she sends you a supersized angel, who will crush you till you're as flat as paper.

[Tina]

Smart, handsome and very funny! Well said, George. :D

[RedHead]

Just MHO, from an ex-Catholic altar boy.

Do you still wear that little outfit for Sandie??:p

To a certain extent I agree with the "religion" portion of your comment. I have found some peoples religious enthusiasm more that I can handle; they are legalistic to the point of "hearing God speak" in order to manipulate people to do what they want. Now I don't mean to say I don't believe that God speaks to people, because I do; but I KNOW that there are those that have heard from God.

I have had my teeth kicked in by "well intentioned" Christians; who wanted me to "Wait for God to change my husband" I had waited for 6 years (and prayed and been in counseling); but when he tried to kill me I thought it was time to go....they thought I just didn't give it enough time. Now please don't misunderstand, it wasn't all of the Christians I knew; just about a handful.

So now I am very careful about the "church" I attend and who my friends are. I actually have found that people who are not Christians to be more real, and more loving. It's a sad testament to Jesus Christ and his love; but alas that is my 20 years of experience.

So Wayne; I don't disagree with your take on Religion; I just don't agree with your disbelief in God and his Son Jesus Christ. I really believe them to be to entirely different things.

[RedHead]

Actually I think that is also how religion is supposed to be and how it is meant to be: A moral teaching, a guidance.
The rouble arose once governments, many centuries ago, (I thought Spain was the first) realized that religion is a very powerful means to control and manipulate people. This is how contries got their "state religion". Unfortunatley that is still going on everywhere in this world.

Actually the first government to use it sucessfully was Rome; after the crucification and the mass acceptance of Christ as their Savior. Rome knew they were losing control of the populace so they took their religious holidays and instituted Christianity into the rituals they already had established. The "Roman Catholic" church was established from that.

[Orso]

The problem is no one can find happiness in himself. Yes, they can be happy with themselves, but true happiness cannot be attained without God.

He creates us with a hole in our soul (mind/will/emotions) that only He can fill.

Oh, yes, it can. Happiness can be found in any possible way and in any possible company, with God(s) or without He/She/It/Them.

I do not know if God(s) created us or not, but I don't feel a hole in my soul or in the soul of anyone around me.

And, by the way, there are statistical studies that show that terminally ill people who are agnostic or atheist accept death in a more quiet, serene and calm way than believers.

[HappyFatChick]

I was referring to true happiness or eternal happiness. Not the fleeting moment happiness that comes and goes.

No one feels the hole in their soul. It's just there. But when it's filled, one can definitely "feel" the difference.

[FitChick]

Dumb luck??



Bzzzt...nope, wrong answer! Try again. :)

I forget who said this, but its very true: "For those with faith, there are no questions...and for those without faith, there are no answers".

I KNOW there is a Creator, because His guiding hand has been upon me even before I was born...my mother wanted to abort me because of health reasons, and G-d made it so she was not able to....He miraculously saved me in utero even though my mother had the Rh sensitivity problem...doctors said "this baby should not be alive, yet she is".

MANY times in my life, G-d saved me, from others, sometimes from myself. As far as I rebelled against Him when I was a teenager, and did wild and crazy things, He never allowed me to get seriously hurt, and mercifully He protected me from things that did happen to others who had as wild a life as I once did. Some things did happen to me, but none were permanent, and I learned important lessons from them. But He protected me from deadly diseases such as HIV, venereal diseases, etc, whereas I know people my age who did get those diseases, some of whom are now dead from it.

And after losing four babies late in pregnancy due to unexplained reasons, I prayed and asked G-d to let my 5th live...and she did. She is now 8 years old, and my doctors were baffled as to why she lived without medical intervention. My OBGYN claimed to be a bornagain Christian, yet I, a Jew, had to give him a lesson on faith and trust.

Even now, as recently as a few days ago, He is still answering all my prayers. I can honestly say that right now, today, there is only one prayer of mine He has not (yet) answered, and I am confident He will answer it: our family cat, Cleo, has been lost for a few weeks and my prayer is that we find her before we move in early June. Already a woman from a few streets away said she has seen her at her house, when she puts out food for strays, and this sighting came after Iprayedfor Cleo's return. So I know it is only a matter of days before we get her back.

I KNOW there is a G-d and I KNOW He cares for me.

[HappyFatChick]

FC- ........Praying for the safe, quick return of your kitty.....:)

[FitChick]

FC- ........Praying for the safe, quick return of your kitty.....:)

Thanks HFC :)....You know, the first time I prayed for her return, I opened my Bible and it opened to the part where G-d says, "the beasts of the field are mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills". I also saw Psalm 145 (the Hebrew title for this Psalm is Ashrei), which speaks of G-d's creative power and the thanks that all creation, including the animals, gives to Him for His goodness to every living thing.

I was worried my cat would be hungry while she was lost, and the Bible said, "He opens His hand and provides food for every living thing". :) Its like He was giving me support until I find her...and then not long after that, I learned she HAS been wellfed, by a woman a few streets over who regularly feeds strays. The only problem is, Cleo won't let this woman grab her, so she calls me on the phone and by the time I or my husband get there, she has run off.

But I am confident we will get her before we move.

[Orso]

I was referring to true happiness or eternal happiness. Not the fleeting moment happiness that comes and goes.

No one feels the hole in their soul. It's just there. But when it's filled, one can definitely "feel" the difference.

It is, again, a matter of faith. You believe in eternal happiness and I respect your belief. I do not believe in anything eternal, I cannot prove you are wrong, you cannot prove I am wrong.

The same for the hole in the soul. But I am reasonably happy even if I do not believe in eternal things and in soul yearnings, reasonably happy in the only way I know

[LarryTheShiveringChipmunk]

Elvis Grbac?

Come on now, we all know Albert Pujols is God.

http://www.qctimes.net/content/articles/2005/10/18/sports/doc43548ee9ef621382296179_thumb.jpg

i wish i could find the HDTV transmission of that home run. The look on George Bush's (41) face is priceless


didn't find the video yet but got this shot:

http://johnsebben.com/stlbaseball/images/Bushreaction.png

[TraciJo67]

Here's your proof, dorks! :p (http://www.devilducky.com/media/45320/)

Careful with the links there -- HFC tends to believe everything she reads on the internet, and this might be a bit upsetting for 'her' :D

[Seth Warren]

Does god/God/etc. exist?

*shrug*

I don't know.

[ThatFatGirl]

The answer is YES... and his name is Prince!!!!!!

He's on American Idol!!!!!!!!!!!


* falls to knees *

God bless him...

[ScreamingChicken]

didn't find the video yet but got this shot:

http://johnsebben.com/stlbaseball/images/Bushreaction.png
Yeah, but the 'Astros came back in Game 6 with a fella by the name of Roy Oswalt.;)