$9 Minimum Wage?

[Observer]

Here is a link (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/LoveAndMoney/LivingWageHowAbout9AnHour.aspx?GT1=8178) to an interesting article on the pros and cons of the new "Living Wage" movement, which has already caused twenty states to enact minimum wage levels greater than the Federal minimum..

In summary, offering American workers a wage at this level has pr oven a great incentive to getting qualified people off of welfare programs (good) while creating layoffs for those with less than a 12th grade education (bad). It is obviously a great help to the working poor, who otherwise have little leverage..

Some other observations: this is all well and good for the service, construction and retail fields - but what about the battered manufacturing sector whose jobs can be replaced by workers in other countries making as little as .50 per hour? Also, what about entry level jobs for kids and jobs for the less-productive disabled? Is a multi-class minimum wage system warranted or should we/can we just outsource our non-defense manufacturing sector and be done with it?

This is a subject I think for serious and thoughtful discussion by those of both liberal and Conservative persuasions.

[moonvine]

I've seen the minimum wage raised several times in my lifetime (when I was in high school it was $3.35 per hour). Every time businesses, particularly fast food businesses, pitched a fit, saying they were going to have to raise prices and whining incessantly, basically. God forbid they should have to pay their employees decently.

Yet we can still get .99 hamburgers. The sky has not fallen.

I'm a firm believer in the living wage movement and have supported it since its inception.

If we didn't have minimum wage laws, companies would be paying .25 an hour if they could get away with it.

Unfortunately MOST businesses don't do the right thing on their own, though it would be nice if they did.

Not to stray too far off the subject, but Andy Stern thinks "Unions are the best anti-poverty program America has ever had."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/12/60minutes/main1614451.shtml
I'd hesitate to say they are the BEST, but I certainly think they are an important part of fighting poverty.
I don't know if I agree with all of his positions, but he sure is an interesting guy.

[missaf]

We may be able to get 99 cent hamburgers, but for those of us who desire to eat healthy and organic, we have to pay through the nose, or grow it ourselves. You can barely get a tomato for 99 cents anymore! LOL

I used to go to a church every Wednesday to feed my family for $7.50. Buying and cooking in bulk is awesome, but when they started to "save money" and use more processed ingredients, I'd get sick from some of the ingredients I'm allergic to. We stopped going because it wasn't worth it to save money and me get sick.

In my experience, the cost of living always rises with the living wage and it doesn't take long for things to get back to right where they started.

[JudgeDredd425]

Here is a link (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/LoveAndMoney/LivingWageHowAbout9AnHour.aspx?GT1=8178) to an interesting article on the pros and cons of the new "Living Wage" movement, which has already caused twenty states to enact minimum wage levels greater than the Federal minimum..

In summary, offering American workers a wage at this level has pr oven a great incentive to getting qualified people off of welfare programs (good) while creating layoffs for those with less than a 12th grade education (bad). It is obviously a great help to the working poor, who otherwise have little leverage..

Some other observations: this is all well and good for the service, construction and retail fields - but what about the battered manufacturing sector whose jobs can be replaced by workers in other countries making as little as .50 per hour? Also, what about entry level jobs for kids and jobs for the less-productive disabled? Is a multi-class minimum wage system warranted or should we/can we just outsource our non-defense manufacturing sector and be done with it?

This is a subject I think for serious and thoughtful discussion by those of both liberal and Conservative persuasions.


The minimum wage is a part of the problem not part of the solution. Just like taxes, any burden that government places on businesses merely gets passed on to the consumer.

The cost of everybody's goods and services effected by the minimum wage go up to adjust for it, if the market does not allow for the necessary price increase than the business in question closes down which brings that wage earned to zero, since people are now out of work.

The whole thing just drives up costs for everyone. In some cases, the rise in the costs of goods and services can and do go above the increase in wages. This means that the poor while earning more money are even poorer than before because everything they buy and use costs more.

In the end it is just a tool for class warfare as it is engaged by Democrat/socialist/communist elements in society.

[moonvine]

We may be able to get 99 cent hamburgers, but for those of us who desire to eat healthy and organic, we have to pay through the nose, or grow it ourselves. You can barely get a tomato for 99 cents anymore! LOL

I used to go to a church every Wednesday to feed my family for $7.50. Buying and cooking in bulk is awesome, but when they started to "save money" and use more processed ingredients, I'd get sick from some of the ingredients I'm allergic to. We stopped going because it wasn't worth it to save money and me get sick.

In my experience, the cost of living always rises with the living wage and it doesn't take long for things to get back to right where they started.

I suspect that the rising cost of organic produce has little to do with rising minimum wage, as the minimum wage has not risen since 1997. I mentioned the hamburger because fast food establishments are a leading consumer of cheap labor. I'm not sure what labor practices are on organic farms as I have less experience with organic farms.

I have not seen it to be the case that the cost of living rises when the minimum wage rises. The cost of living has gone up quite a bit lately due to the cost of gasoline. Minimum wage has been the same for almost 10 years. I'm really glad I'm not making minimum wage, but I do support other people's right to make a living wage.

[Jane]

Here is a link (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/LoveAndMoney/LivingWageHowAbout9AnHour.aspx?GT1=8178) to an interesting article on the pros and cons of the new "Living Wage" movement, which has already caused twenty states to enact minimum wage levels greater than the Federal minimum..

In summary, offering American workers a wage at this level has pr oven a great incentive to getting qualified people off of welfare programs (good) while creating layoffs for those with less than a 12th grade education (bad). It is obviously a great help to the working poor, who otherwise have little leverage..

Some other observations: this is all well and good for the service, construction and retail fields - but what about the battered manufacturing sector whose jobs can be replaced by workers in other countries making as little as .50 per hour? Also, what about entry level jobs for kids and jobs for the less-productive disabled? Is a multi-class minimum wage system warranted or should we/can we just outsource our non-defense manufacturing sector and be done with it?

This is a subject I think for serious and thoughtful discussion by those of both liberal and Conservative persuasions.
How many manufacturing jobs pay $9 per hour or less?

Disabled workers have their own exemptions based on ability.

Unless you live in a depressed rural area, you cannot imagine what a boost this would be their economies. Many families are two workers, each making $5.15 per hour, trying to raise kids and not making ends meet. These are people with high school diplomas, who cannot possibly get ahead with these wages. Some have vo-tech training, but not in the right areas to secure employment and be able to raise their children.

Teen-aged workers have a three month training period in which they can be paid lower wages.

I work on our local campaign to raise the minimum wage.

It has always been my contention that employers want God for $400 a month, no benefits.

[JudgeDredd425]

Yet we can still get .99 hamburgers. The sky has not fallen.

I'm a firm believer in the living wage movement and have supported it since its inception.

If we didn't have minimum wage laws, companies would be paying .25 an hour if they could get away with it.


Back in the day that the minimum wage was sitting at $3.35/hour that 99 cent hamburger cost about 59 cents or less. So to say we have .99 burgers is not a good thing. The price has been driven up.

And no company is going to pay just .25/hour if that is out of line with the market. Companies are in business to do business. If people can't afford their goods and/or services then they are out of business if they can't or won't lower their prices to fit the average person's ability to pay.

The minimum wage is part of the problem not part of the solution.

[Mini]

As someone who makes 9 bucks an hour, better than the current (Canadian) minimum wage, I can honestly say that even at that I couldn't survive on a 40-hour work week. Living is too fuckin' expensive.

Something needs to be done, but I'll be damned if I know what.

[Zandoz]

The Excessive compensation tax: On a company by company basis, anyone in that company making more that some set trigger multiple of that companies median wage, would be taxed heavily enough that it would be an incentive for the corporate executives to spread the wealth a bit to be able to keep more for themselves.

The income from the tax to only be used to fund un and under employment services. Specifically banned from being used for anything else.

It would be tiered so that the higher the discrepancy from the median, the higher the tax. If they try to pass it along, eventually they price themselves out of the market. If an entire industry acts in lock step (like the oil companies do now), it's time for aggressive monopoly, collusion, and or price fixing investigations.

I know it won't happen...but it's a thought

[Fuzzy]

The Minimum Wage sets an artificial floor for the cost of labor in the economy.
Since the market doesn't set this price, all other prices in the market must also adjust plus inflation. It doesn't make good economic sense.

I believe in abolishing the minimum wage. Allow the market to set the cost for labor.

[Jane]

Fuzzy, conceptually I understand.

Seeing people try to feed their children, I disagree.

[moonvine]

Back in the day that the minimum wage was sitting at $3.35/hour that 99 cent hamburger cost about 59 cents or less. So to say we have .99 burgers is not a good thing. The price has been driven up.



Well, that was 1981. I believe that the cost of the burger would have increased since 1981 regardless of the price of labor - gas has increased, the cost of the raw materials to make the hamburger has increased, etc.

I was comparing the price of the burger today to the price of the burger in 1997, which is the last time the minimum wage increased - not to the price of the burger in 1981 (which I don't even remember). My point was that you could get a burger for .99 in 1997, and you can get a burger for .99 today.

It would be nice if companies would do the right thing on their own - then we wouldn't need labor laws and protection - but for the most part, they won't.

[JudgeDredd425]

Well, that was 1981. I believe that the cost of the burger would have increased since 1981 regardless of the price of labor - gas has increased, the cost of the raw materials to make the hamburger has increased, etc.

I was comparing the price of the burger today to the price of the burger in 1997, which is the last time the minimum wage increased - not to the price of the burger in 1981 (which I don't even remember). My point was that you could get a burger for .99 in 1997, and you can get a burger for .99 today.

It would be nice if companies would do the right thing on their own - then we wouldn't need labor laws and protection - but for the most part, they won't.

There are many factors at work in the cost of business, the minimum wage being just one. But just like the cost of fuel, if the cost of labor goes up, it has a ripple effect that radiates out in all directions. The market can take care of itself it is left alone to do so. I'm not suggesting an end to all labor laws, some were in fact necessary, but when it comes to wages, that should be left to the market not the government.

[Zandoz]

The Minimum Wage sets an artificial floor for the cost of labor in the economy.
Since the market doesn't set this price, all other prices in the market must also adjust plus inflation. It doesn't make good economic sense.

I believe in abolishing the minimum wage. Allow the market to set the cost for labor.


As long as there are four factors, without an artificial floor, wages, and the associated standard of living would be in free fall...and it's not far from that now.

The three factors...1) Greed 2) Poverty 3) Technology 4) Free trade

As long as the greedy can move their operations (free trade) with ease (Technology), to where ever there is a lower standard of living (poverty), those in the middle have nothing to prevent their own economic free fall. There is no leverage...no hand hold.

Greed is part of human nature...that's never going to change. Poverty has and always will exist. Technology, a byproduct of human nature, will always be on the move...the cat's out of the bag. Free trade...the one controllable factor.

The minimum wage is one of the fewer and fewer hand holds on free trade left to to brake the free fall.

"It doesn't make good economic sense." really depends on your perspective. If you're the one standing on the top of a cliff, it may not make sense. When you're the one standing on the platform (floor) over the cliff it not only makes sense, you're praying it doesn't collapse, and hoping that it raises enough that you can get to the next platform.

All too often, "The Economy" is looked on as a one sided coin...but like every coin, it has two sides...the bright and shiny side glittering in the sun, and the side laying in the dirt. The thing is that when the coin is there, one side in the dirt, it has no functional value. It's only when the WHOLE coin is picked and put to good use, that the coins true value is attained.

[Observer]

In theory Ayn Rand and Adam Smith can seem beautiful - so does socialist theory - from each according to ability, to each according to need. In practice neither Utopian dream exists in a vacuum and the idealistic model breaks down. That's the pragmatic reality of what's wrong with both dogmatic conservatism and dogmatic liberalism.

I think having a "living wage" floor is fine where all workers are worth the floor amount and there are abundant labor intensive jobs. But if the effect is to automate or outsource jobs for certain classes the ultimate remedy becomes wealth transfer in one form or another.

There are at least three forms this can take - taxation to transfer monies from the productive to the unproductive through increased welfare and social services costs, creation of an underclass of involuntary multi-generational poor, or an increase in crime and underground economy jobs that escape the tax system..

My own feeling is that employers will pay as little as they can get away with so you have to have a threshold minimum. You also, however, need to have adequate reporting, incentives to increase local employment. leveling of the international labor pool effect and "jobs of last resort" for those who can't compete in the normal "living age" market. Until you have all these elements in place plus Tye addressing of health and counseling needs there will be inequities.

What is the likelihood that such a comprehensive approach will ever be proposed by any serious politician? I think close to zero, for different aspects of it are opposed by just about every constituency. No one is willing to embrace the whole package.

[Phalloidium]

Minimum wage? Hah. That doesn't exist here. I think it's officially $7/hr, but fast food here is paying up to $15.50/hr and they're still short staffed. It's nuts.

[Zandoz]

Minimum wage? Hah. That doesn't exist here. I think it's officially $7/hr, but fast food here is paying up to $15.50/hr and they're still short staffed. It's nuts.

Must be nice! A friend just last week had to take a $7/hr job after 8 months of searching. and having 15-20 years clerical/office experiance....her previous job was over double that rate.

[Phalloidium]

Must be nice! A friend just last week had to take a $7/hr job after 8 months of searching. and having 15-20 years clerical/office experiance....her previous job was over double that rate.

Yeah, but rent is somewhat insane, too. I'm paying $1000/mn for a 3 bedroom basement suite including utilities -- which is a fantastic deal.

Skilled trades are pretty much all in the $20 to $40/hr range now. I have a friend who's half way through his heavy duty mechanic schooling making six figures. It's crazy.

[missaf]

I barely bring home $7 an hour for the flexible hours job I have, but the hours are there when I need them. When I get the new job I'm shooting for, I'll be full time at $16-20 an hour.

[Zandoz]

Yeah, but rent is somewhat insane, too. I'm paying $1000/mn for a 3 bedroom basement suite including utilities -- which is a fantastic deal.

Skilled trades are pretty much all in the $20 to $40/hr range now. I have a friend who's half way through his heavy duty mechanic schooling making six figures. It's crazy.

In a field requiring a technical college degree, after 20+ years I finally broke 20 an hour. That rent is not too far out of line from what it is here. When a friend was looking, the best they could do in an area that wasn't an urban warfare zone was over $500 for a very small 2 br, and the utilities were around $350 if cable was included. Her 40hour a week job does nothing but pay the rent & utilities.

[moonvine]

Minimum wage? Hah. That doesn't exist here. I think it's officially $7/hr, but fast food here is paying up to $15.50/hr and they're still short staffed. It's nuts.

I don't make much more than that and I've been here 7 years and have a Master's degree and supervise 14 people. However, the working conditions are no doubt more pleasant......

and my mortgage is $525 a month...

[missaf]

Upscale ubran warfare zone here, income controlled apartment, and my rent is still $754 a month. I'm hoping to get the heck outta here, and rent to own for $1025 a month for a 2br 2ba. with a yard.

[truth38]

Minimum wage jobs should be increased.
Since I am in Texas I can only comment on living conditions here.
It seems that at $5.15 an hour is not enough to have a place to stay, food to eat, transportation (either by bus, train, or car), medical expenses is enough.
In my city people with higher wages complain about paying more money to individuals with lower wages but as I see it there is not a choice. Your rent for a apt in a low income area is still going to cost you about $475 for a 1bed room 1 bath. Your monthly income is $696 this leaves you with only $221.
At least with an increase, even to $7 the individual can live a bit without starving or having to go to the government for assistance.(Just my 2 cents)

[RedVelvet]

Yeah, but rent is somewhat insane, too. I'm paying $1000/mn for a 3 bedroom basement suite including utilities -- which is a fantastic deal.

Skilled trades are pretty much all in the $20 to $40/hr range now. I have a friend who's half way through his heavy duty mechanic schooling making six figures. It's crazy.



And you are.....where?...pretty please...?

(Said the girl in Los Angeles...)

[Phalloidium]

And you are.....where?...pretty please...?

(Said the girl in Los Angeles...)

In Grande Prairie, Alberta. It's been ridiculously hot here, too, lately. We're just north of the 55th parallel and it's been in the 30's for weeks -- or 90's for people still using the old system. I miss my cold, damnit.

[Phalloidium]

Minimum wage jobs should be increased.
Since I am in Texas I can only comment on living conditions here.
It seems that at $5.15 an hour is not enough to have a place to stay, food to eat, transportation (either by bus, train, or car), medical expenses is enough.
In my city people with higher wages complain about paying more money to individuals with lower wages but as I see it there is not a choice. Your rent for a apt in a low income area is still going to cost you about $475 for a 1bed room 1 bath. Your monthly income is $696 this leaves you with only $221.
At least with an increase, even to $7 the individual can live a bit without starving or having to go to the government for assistance.(Just my 2 cents)

Making the minimum wage artificially high hurts the economy. It does this by raising labour costs, which in turn raises the prices of many basic goods and services, which means you have to make even more money -- welcome to inflation.

People aren't entitled to a standard of living. There's no basic human right to having to have your own place, or to having a car, etc. If people want those things, they should have to work for them -- e.g. find a job that pays more. And before anyone accuses me of talking out of my ass, I have lived at minimum wage ($5.90/hr at the time). I still managed to clothe, feed, and shelter myself. Did I like it? No! So I changed careers and with hard work quintupled my income.

It annoys me that people ask that nanny state to take care of them instead of looking out for themselves. Part of being a mature adult is fending for yourself. If Walmart won't pay you enough to live the lifestyle you want, then don't work there! I used to work for them and they were very strongly suggesting I go into management -- but now I make twice what an assistant manager there does. I didn't ask them to pay me more, instead I went out and found someone who would. Move if you have to. I did, and more than once.

[HappyFatChick]

I just read that the Chicago City Council raised the 'minimum living wage' to $10/hour for 'big box stores.' Some of them are already discussing moving out of Chicago and taking their jobs with them.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/26/bigbox.wages.ap/index.html

[Wayne_Zitkus]

I just read that the Chicago City Council raised the 'minimum living wage' to $10/hour for 'big box stores.' Some of them are already discussing moving out of Chicago and taking their jobs with them.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/26/bigbox.wages.ap/index.html
They won't. It will cost them too much in sales to leave the Windy City.

[Paul Fannin]

Minimum Living Wage?

That's the half truth of it. Minimum, yes. Living wage, no

It's not only abominable that government is allowed to dictate market forces, but it's "compaaaasssion" helps in keeping minimum wage earners right where they are, never to get a hand up.

[RedVelvet]

I just read that the Chicago City Council raised the 'minimum living wage' to $10/hour for 'big box stores.' Some of them are already discussing moving out of Chicago and taking their jobs with them.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/26/bigbox.wages.ap/index.html


Oh yeah.....when they did it in Santa Monica, it was all screaming and knashing of teeth too....

...and yet....gee.....no one left....no one lost their job, and the city continues to be rich, rich rich...in fact, a new boutique hotel just opened up in the Living Wage zone.....and they are RAKING it in....

I look outside and see the world hasn't ended as well.