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Old 03-05-2017, 06:08 AM   #21
happily_married
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This will probably be my last reply. At least my last attempt to go point for point and over complicate a simple subject that can be boiled down to 3 words: Respect others' preferences. These posts are growing longer and longer and while I don't think you're being intentionally obtuse, but you yourself acknowledged:

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
Alright. This is going to come up sooner or later, so you may as well know now. I don't think the same way that most others do. While many other people have helpful instincts and "common sense," I have no ability to intuit whatsoever, or rather, the things that I intuit nearly always run contrary to the prevailing views. For this reason, in order to find work, friends, a purpose, etc, I've needed to supplement my intuitions with exhaustive analysis, which takes longer, but often leads to important discoveries.

So, no. For me, it is hard to understand, and my habit of thinking everything through is a coping mechanism, not the cause of my failure to understand.
Exhaustive analysis may be nice and all but that's the kind of work I do for a living and I am not inclined to keep it up during my leisure time. And I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I intend it as a legit suggestion, but you may consider professional help, either something to assist you with your coping mechanism or at minimum someone who can give you a little social coaching.


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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
These two paragraphs merely signify to me that you didn't read all of what I wrote. As I said, the data from which I draw my conclusions isn't just based on me, but on everyone I know or have known. That's definitely enough data to start drawing conclusions from. Two people would be sufficient to begin drawing rational conclusions from, because it would represent the greater amount of evidence in support of an inductive conclusion.
I certainly did read it but dismiss the idea again. People tend to surround themselves by people who give them validation. I'm not sure where you find that many who lack emotional maturity but the vast majority of adults in my life have a healthy enough degree of it to validate my own position. So we are at an impasse here.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I'm not seeing the connection between these two things. Please explain this. Also, if you're saying what I think you're saying, how does rushing to incorrect conclusions qualify as a "defense?"
Okay, I'll apologize for using the word "initial." I should have known you'd hone in on that word and miss entirely the general point I am trying to make. And that is, if you go where you want to go TOO EARLY (and "too early" is defined by the person you're getting to know, so you never really know when it's not "too early") she may well assume you have a fetish and decide that's not for her. Who cares about her conclusions about you being wrong? Do you want to get to know her or not? Is expressing your appreciation for something that may be an extremely sensitive issue to her so important that you risk shutting her down over it? And I'll tell you why "rushing to incorrect conclusions" qualifies as a defense. Defense is like insurance. You hope you never need to use it but when you need it you're glad it's there. A woman may think "Maybe I'm being too hasty but honestly I've been burned too many times to give anyone who goes there a chance and I have to start thinking about protecting myself." Like my friend whose example I shared with you. Did you even read it?

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I think you know better than that. That's not at all the issue here. I've already responded to the "initial question" claim, and I'm still waiting on a reply about the worth of tact.
See above on my word choice regarding initial. As for the claim on tact, both Agouderia and I have repeatedly outlined why tact is so valuable. You've either not read and considered them or you've dismissed it them without so much as a rebuttal. Which is fine with me, it's no skin off my nose. But the thoughts are there for you to read and consider. I'm not in the practice of saying again what I've already said, especially when it's in writing and anyone can just go back and read it.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I don't, but I'm surprised that you don't, given that you just criticized me for this very thing; inductive reasoning.

And no; I don't take issue with anyone for being scared. There's a lot to be scared of in this wicked world. I take issue with choosing revulsion over the desire to learn and understand.
Here's why I criticized YOU for it: I'm having a conversation with YOU. I'm not having a conversation with any theoretical woman out there on the receiving end of your "praise" for her fat. If I were in such a conversation with her I'd encourage her to not jump to conclusions but take a guarded optimism going forward. Secondly, you applied your baseline to me on a general behavioral trait. In the hypothetical we're discussing she'd be applying her baseline experiences toward you based on an intimately personal physical trait that may well have resulted in her being hurt in the past. Slightly different circumstances.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
They do, but a failure on either end is enough to deprive the relationship of its purpose. Just as I wouldn't hold it against anyone who decided I just wasn't what she was looking for, there are a few things that would make a legitimate relationship unworkable on my end as well.
Relationships change and grow over time because people change and grow. It's really unreasonable to expect someone to be able to project well into the future that she will never want to drop below that magical 200 pound threshold you adore so much. Suppose she gets news about a health concern that can grow more serious with time? Or maybe she sees something that inspires her to pursue weightless and athletic activities and these pursuits genuinely make her happy?

Is your basis for your attraction to her so tied to the physical that you believe these changes would disrupt the relationship? If so I'll repeat that I think that makes you a bit shallow. Furthermore, it validates any hypothetical concern a hypothetical woman may have if/when you raise the issue early on as you're getting to know her.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
Are you saying that once you know the person's name, and use it regularly, you can also express how you really feel? I haven't found that to be the case.
You missed that point so ridiculously bad that I'm starting to rethink my "deliberately obtuse" comment. I'm not trying to be mean, but, no, that's not even close to what I'm saying. You're off by comical proportions.

My point is the difference between "who" and "what." Most women want to be appreciated for "who" they are, not "what" they are.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
All of these terms are highly ambiguous, though I've learned to identify myself as socially awkward in the past, so I think I may understand part of what you mean.
They have professionals who specialize in coaching for social situations. This can help with your awkwardness if you're interested.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
Not hardly. The genesis of this conversion was the freedom to express feelings.
This sort of thing is why I'm bowing out of this discussion. Yes, freedom to express feelings is the genesis but the venue in which that freedom was introduced is related to physical attraction and that is the context we've discussed this while time.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
There's nowhere to grow to, unless you have any ideas for how to circumvent or avoid these obstacles.
I do. It's called tact. But you've already dismissed the worth of tact so...

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
Again, we're not talking about a different approach. If what you've been telling me is true, our end goals are quite different.
Again, you're allowing a single word to distract you from the main idea conveyed. I'll stand by the points I've made, but I'll not debate you on the points you wish or think I've made.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
Maybe, under a different name. I believe in ethical maturity; having the strength to do what's right in the face of harsh opposition. I believe in self-control; the virtue to stop oneself from doing evil or harming others, and to make oneself do good and right. I believe in relationship maturity; the willingness to give of one's time, resources, attention and effort for the sake of supporting a good relationship. However, that's about all I believe in that even comes close to what you're describing. Everyone I know who has a set of distinct feelings had the same distinct feelings five years ago, and, (in the cases of those who I've known for longer than five years,) also ten, twenty and thirty years ago.
That's quite a circle you run in.

As indicated I'm probably done trying to go point for point with you. I will say this: ultimately I do understand that you need someone with whom to express these feelings and in the event you do end up in a relationship, her respecting your needs is just as important as your respecting hers. This includes being an outlet for your expression. Still, it can be dicey.

I already hinted at this, but I was 7 or 8 years into my marriage when I asked my wife if she'd consider instead of attempting to lose weight to work on a better self image at her current weight. She said she couldn't do that, and a relatively short time after that had some success losing weight. Unfortunately for her she gained it all back and then some. She knows I support her weight loss efforts but she also knows that not only am I not complaining about her weight but am outright loving it. She does not begrudge me that, but she used to. She's grown in the relationship too and we're better for it. She still doesn't like me fawning over certain features on her body, but in some circumstances allows it (and in the right circumstances does seem to enjoy it).

So we've reached a healthy balance where my need to express my appreciation for the one woman I'll ever be with again is respected and her desire for as little undue attention to certain parts of her body is respected. Balance.

Good luck, TS.
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