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Old 12-31-2017, 11:37 AM   #37
HereticFA
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I just don't accept statistics or anecdotal evidence as methods of proof
So, you not only want your draw your own conclusions, but you want your own facts as well since you said earlier that you completely discount all the existing scientific studies contained within Medscape, NIH, NAS, et al due to their use of statistics. No health related study will be complete without statistics. (And someone's anecdotal evidence is simply an uncollected datapoint still waiting for the right study or as seed for a hypothesis.)

You would be much more helpful if you cited studies and specific points within those studies where you believed there were problems. But to fully disregard all the studies for the reasons you've stated makes it hard to take you seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
and after all the times I've felt betrayed and disheartened by other people hating fatness, or treating it disrespectfully, or abandoning it, or otherwise being anything but delighted and reverent towards it; cherishing it, like all other things of surpassing goodness,
I hope you can achieve your weight gain goals you alluded to in earlier posts. Maybe then you will better understand why people's reactions to and acceptance of fatness is as varied as their personal experiences and health outcomes.

I'd like to see it as no different from any other physicality. But our society already fetishizes pretty faces and height, so maybe that's the basis for society's negative views of FA's. (Being fat makes a person look shorter and will alter the aspects of a face.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I will question my conclusions on this, only if I see real proof that they're wrong. Real proof comes in four varieties. Logical proofs (deductive and inductive,) mathematical proofs, scientific proofs and perceptible proofs.
You can't have scientific proofs without the use of statistics if you're dealing with populations. If you're the really the "research guy" you claim to be, you should know that. As for the strict application of "logic" as an arbiter of proof, at best that's simply the basis for the formation of a hypothesis. But without supplementing that hypothesis with data and statistical analysis, all you've done is write high level fiction constrained by your prejudices and your imagination.
treaded
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
Since a connection between fatness and mortality is not perceptible with our normal senses, we must rely on one of the first 3, probably numbers 1 or 3, since numbers alone seem unlikely to give us this data. So, is there some logical argument to indicate that fatness causes poor health, or is it not more likely that the reverse is true? Is there any actual, scientific proof that fatness is the deciding factor in health outcomes, or are there other factors, where the blame is to be more rightly placed?
We can identify disease and death with at least two of our senses so your statement is demonstrably wrong. But unlike you, I'll not discard the rest of your statement due to the incorrectness but address it.

In some medical issues, specifically diabetes, sufficient weight loss has been shown to relieve the disease. The only variables are what constitutes "sufficient weight loss" and how much relief can occur. In my wife it took losing over 150 lbs to see noticeable relief. But she had very brittle diabetes and was insulin dependent, with wild swings in BG levels that were very hard to regulate. Now with a 220 lb weight loss she's able to regulate her BG level pretty well. Others fared much better with less than a 100 pound weight loss necessary to get off oral meds for their diabetes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
The stakes, for me, could not be higher, and my entire life's structure will hinge on this point, so I'm strongly motivated to learn the actual truth about this. Am I going to be offered some hope in this life, or do I need to wait for the next with patience and silence?
So we finally reach the reason for your desperation to maintain your cognitive dissonance. I was once where you are. And I'll admit it's been a peculiar feeling having this discussion with you since some of your points were nearly identical to those I made decades ago. It's been like arguing with my younger self. But in the end, the actual truth is that for a significant percentage of the people you find the most attractive, you will live to witness their demise. Some may be lovers or friends, others will be faces you remember from fat related events or online communities. The one thing you notice is that they all died early, over twenty years earlier than the average age of 78 or so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I refuse to feel guilty about something which I don't control, can't help, and have no alternative to.
Or you could just accept that you are attracted to an aspect of human physiology that has been shown to cause many people with those characteristics of extremely elevated avoirdupois to have poor health outcomes. No guilt is necessary as long as you don't encourage it to someone's detriment.

I personally find a big, round "moon face" to be very attractive. But I also know that's a sign of Cushing's Syndrome. It doesn't stop my preference. But it helps me understand what other issues that person may be experiencing. (It also helped me notice that so many WLS post-ops still had their moon face after weight loss, indicating the underlying issue that made them fat hadn't really been addressed and may explain some of their continued health problems.)
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