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Old 08-04-2009, 10:41 PM   #26
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The way I understand objectification is that the person is somewhat separated from the body part/s. When one is being objectified, it's the body, or vessel, that is being considered and not the person themselves.

Objectification is basically seeing someone only as a means to a sexual end and the personhood is removed. When I am lusting after my husband's bod, I'm not thinking about what a great guy he is, I'm wanting to do whatever it is at the time to him. Yes, desire is involved, but there is also that separation of desire and lust for the bod from my knowledge of how much I love him and how wonderful I think he is. Sometimes I'm focusing on that, too, though. It depends. In some ways, to me, it's the difference between fucking and making love. Both are good, but ultimately, I see that kind of objectification as 'harmless' because it's within the realm of a full relationship and isn't comparable, in my mind, to the endless use of womens' bodies to sell everything from magazines to beer to gum to diet aids -- to... basically everything.
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Old 08-04-2009, 10:45 PM   #27
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In some ways, to me, it's the difference between fucking and making love.
This is what I was trying to say but Tina said it much more eloquently.
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:05 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tina View Post
The way I understand objectification is that the person is somewhat separated from the body part/s. When one is being objectified, it's the body, or vessel, that is being considered and not the person themselves.

Objectification is basically seeing someone only as a means to a sexual end and the personhood is removed. When I am lusting after my husband's bod, I'm not thinking about what a great guy he is, I'm wanting to do whatever it is at the time to him. Yes, desire is involved, but there is also that separation of desire and lust for the bod from my knowledge of how much I love him and how wonderful I think he is. Sometimes I'm focusing on that, too, though. It depends. In some ways, to me, it's the difference between fucking and making love. Both are good, but ultimately, I see that kind of objectification as 'harmless' because it's within the realm of a full relationship and isn't comparable, in my mind, to the endless use of womens' bodies to sell everything from magazines to beer to gum to diet aids -- to... basically everything.
see, i experience it differently. i can't separate my lust for the bod from the person. i actually have to feel something for the person to want them. i have to think of both at the same time. its a big part of my own excitement to know that i am giving pleasure to the person i care about. on some level i'm always thinking about it. maybe thats why sounds of pleasure really do something for me.

i have really never just wanted to fuck someone i don't know. it just doesn't appeal to me because i am so emotion driven. i don't find it satisfying unless i appreciate the person i'm with on all kinds of levels. they have to have a strong personality in particular. sure i feel a lot of lust and passion toward a person i'm attracted to but i can't even get that far if i don't genuninely respect and like them on some level first.

the media hates people like me. a photo of a handsome man will make me think "oh he is pretty to look at" but i never have sexual fantasies about movies stars etc...i don't care about ever meeting them. i might have a fantasy about an image or a feeling one of thier roles create but when i imagine it its always with someone i know and am thinking about at the time and not someone i don't know at all.

when i think of objectification i think of someone who could care less about the person as well. when i'm feeling aroused i care a lot about the person. that makes whatever physical pleasures they give me or i give them much more intense. if i try with someone i don't feel has that same emotional intensity or i don't feel the intensity myself everything falls flat.

i kind of get the idea that what you are talking about re: you and your hubby is more like sexual attraction than objectification. i don't necessarily look at sexual attraction the same as objectification. i think its a great part of being human whereas objectification is demeaning. attraction doesn't mean you don't have caring. in fact the caring part , for me at least, can make attraction much more powerful. i thinks is important for women in particular to be careful about classifying physical attraction as objectification. it can cause you to lose a lot of pleasure in being with your partner and feeling free to be yourself and your body as a woman if you can't seperate the two. if things are going well and there is no negative power play between two people i don't think there can be anything objectifying about intimacy and sexuality. and whatever you do to please each other doesn't have any political meanings when the relationship is healthy. its just something you do because you enjoy getting each other hot.

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Old 08-05-2009, 12:25 AM   #29
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"when i think of objectification i think of someone who could care less about the person as well"

That is how I see it as well super..I think of it as just someone getting their jollies from what ever body part they desire..That body part might be attached to the best person in the world but the person doing the objectifying is not going to see that because their brain is just centered on 1 thing..It's not right but people do it all the time..

Back when I was a teenager I couldn't get a guy to notice me for the right reasons..Sure I got plenty of the nasty comments but never a compliment..When I went to work in a factory and lost a lot of weight,men came out of the woodwork and it did not bother them one bit to make overt sexual comments to me..I was in a store one day and 4 guys came in,1 was a cousin of mine..They got what ever it was they wanted and came to stand behind me in line..3 of the guys were making some of the rudest comments about my ass and how they would love to hit it..I heard them,they made sure they were loud enough to be overheard..I turned and smiled at my cousin,winked and said hi to him,looked at the other 3 and said something like you wish you could and walked out..My cousin was laughing so hard when he came out of the store he could barely walk..Even the guys I had known 10 years or so would make a comment about my ass..It would piss me off and I would go off on them about it being the same ass it was when I was younger..I hated it..So to make the comments stop I began to gain the weight back..Only 1 man ever told me he would love me no matter what I looked like...The rest seem to have gotten lost and some never spoke to me again..But hey I do not have to hear the lewd comments any more..
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:56 AM   #30
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I loved this, Vickie. Thanks for posting it. In watching it, and in hearing one woman (who is thin, BTW) talk about her negative feelings when seeing the photo of herself talking about how the more she looked at it the more she thought it was beautiful, reminded me of my own process. When I decided I was sick and tired of hating my fat body and purposefully went about seeing myself differently, one of the things I did was draw myself. Because as an artist interested in the real challenge of drawing the undraped human form, I was used to drawing bodies. But the models we had in class were never truly fat. One of the women was plus-size, but not at all approaching supersize. So in drawing myself (in two different poses), I was having to detach in order to concentrate on accuracy as much as possible. That detachment and then later coloring it in on the computer and looking at it as objectively as I could (one of my 'rules' I made for myself was to look for beauty in regards to my body, and to not deny it if I found it) helped me to see things I hadn't seen before. It is one of the things (that and wanting to conquer my fear and dislike of having my picture taken) that preceded my shoot for the Dimensions print mag issue where I was featured. Without the drawings I did of myself and the beginnings of change in the way I saw myself, I don't believe I could have mustered the confidence to agree to be in the magazine and have hundreds of photos taken of me. So I totally can relate to what she is saying, and I think that if more women could go through that process, it might make a difference.

This of course might seem like something that is feeding into objectification, with the naked photos and/or drawings, etc, but IMO, if one gets something positive from it that they didn't have before, I'm not concerned with what others think about it.

Anyway, crazy day (my son is flying in today and there was a schedule glitch and it was all falling apart for a while there, and I also have lots to do and am kind of anxious and not in my best space for contemplation and written expression of that) and I'm not sure how well I'm getting this across, but wanted to comment on that bit of video Vickie linked, and how I see it as being very valid.
yes this is why i think its so important for women to feel free to be able to view and even show thier bodies without being criticised for it. it can really help a woman to appreciate herself.

i ran a program on body image once where i encouraged women to take photos of thier bodies. they were encouraged to crop it however they liked. they never had to show the photos anywhere if they didn't want to. but by the last class they were showing off thier photos to other women. i did my own as well so that they didn't feel on the spot. it gave them some ideas on how to pose etc... and because i was so much bigger than all of them it really freed them up a bit. i guess they thought if i was brave enough to do it then so were they. most of them had a better self image by the end of the course. in the process everyone had the chance to discuss thier body and other women's bodies and thier relationship to what they thought society says about women's bodies. it really worked out well since the women were able to do a lot of deep self reflecton.
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:44 PM   #31
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i have really never just wanted to fuck someone i don't know. it just doesn't appeal to me because i am so emotion driven. i don't find it satisfying unless i appreciate the person i'm with on all kinds of levels. they have to have a strong personality in particular. sure i feel a lot of lust and passion toward a person i'm attracted to but i can't even get that far if i don't genuninely respect and like them on some level first.
I agree. I'm not sure (were I not already in a relationship) that I could just hop into bed with someone I didn't have feelings for first. That's what the 1970s were for.

But for me, I can separate the two out -- just wanting to fuck, from wanting to make love -- because I'm already in love with the man I bed. So yes, you're right in that I'm really referring to my relationship with my husband. The 70s were lots of fun, but are gone forever.
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i ran a program on body image once where i encouraged women to take photos of thier bodies. they were encouraged to crop it however they liked. they never had to show the photos anywhere if they didn't want to. but by the last class they were showing off thier photos to other women. i did my own as well so that they didn't feel on the spot. it gave them some ideas on how to pose etc... and because i was so much bigger than all of them it really freed them up a bit. i guess they thought if i was brave enough to do it then so were they. most of them had a better self image by the end of the course. in the process everyone had the chance to discuss thier body and other women's bodies and thier relationship to what they thought society says about women's bodies. it really worked out well since the women were able to do a lot of deep self reflecton.
This is FANtastic, Felicia! I love this. Doing this and seeing the changes in perception must have felt so good to you, knowing you'd helped those women appreciate and be more comfortable with their bodies.

I have to say that I do have a problem with porn and the social dynamics of it, and how it benefits men, but rarely women, and how it feeds into societal perception of women at a core social level, and how addiction to it by men can ruin relationships. But I also feel that every woman has a right to do what she likes with her own body, and also very much in a "the political is the personal" kind of way.
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Old 08-07-2009, 05:24 PM   #32
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I agree. I'm not sure (were I not already in a relationship) that I could just hop into bed with someone I didn't have feelings for first. That's what the 1970s were for.

But for me, I can separate the two out -- just wanting to fuck, from wanting to make love -- because I'm already in love with the man I bed. So yes, you're right in that I'm really referring to my relationship with my husband. The 70s were lots of fun, but are gone forever. ...

I have to say that I do have a problem with porn and the social dynamics of it, and how it benefits men, but rarely women, and how it feeds into societal perception of women at a core social level, and how addiction to it by men can ruin relationships. But I also feel that every woman has a right to do what she likes with her own body, and also very much in a "the political is the personal" kind of way.
yeah i feel the same way. i look at modern porn as a missed opportunity to bring the sexes back together in a healthy and mutually beneficial sort of way. it would be nice to mold people's minds to a point where they were more titilated by healthy sexual relationships where real equality and respect were sexy. right now it looks like most of it is just a place where people can release some kind of resentment they have toward women unfortuantely . it seems to be mostly about power plays between men and women that really only benefit corporate interests when you thnk about it. if we were really sexually satisfied no one would be as interested in mostof the products those industries have to sell.

sometimes i really wish i could separate things better. it would really benefit me in some ways. it would definitely make life a lot easier for me.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:34 AM   #33
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I've been talking off and on to an FA who loves fat and the perk is that a woman comes with it.

I don't like that one bit. I want a man to like me because of me and being fat is the perk.
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