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Old 10-02-2009, 12:43 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Dr. P Marshall View Post




I don't think too many people here have a real problem with us fat admirers enjoying the eye candy. I think the problem becomes that some fat admirers aren't good at knowing when to understand the issues versus expressing the appreciation. I mean, yeah, a picture thread, I'm going to post objectifying comments, we all will. But I have seen instances on the boards where a BBW or BHM (mostly it happens to BBWs) is openly expressing a lack of confidence at a certain time or with a certain issue, or discussing a health issue and they get a sort of "just hold your head up and be confident. Nothing is sexier than a confident BBW." And while that is true and nice to hear in some contexts, it might not be what she wants to hear when she's lamenting job discrimination, or having joint pain or any other serious thing. I think that's more the issue. Not the objectification when it's appropriate. Also, there are the "not so good guys/gals" who will actually be so callous as to post "that's hot" when someone is discussing a health problem or something embarrassing happening. And I don't mean on the Weight Board. Even though those posts get edited, it's still out there, it's been seen. So I can understand how sometimes it may seem like there aren't many of the good guys/gals out there sometimes. Then, if a well meaning, good guy oversteps his boundaries and offers advice about being healthy without losing weight to someone who needs to lose weight for any reason......it can probably make it seem that we really do all have no concept of empathy or even comprehension. But to be clear, I was NOT criticizing objectification. I'm all for it in the right context...which is when the BBW or BHM has made it clear that's what they want (pictures, etc).
Yeah basically my point was there is a time and place for things. However, acting like Larry the Cable guy while someone is expressing their heart felt concerns is not cool. My post was just my general view on all relationships.

Its funny (ironic) but when I mention things that are usually only experienced by multicultural people, like myself, to Escapist...he just tries to understand. Likewise, I understand that I usually have to give a more detailed explanation because he really doesnt have a clue ...as i dont have a clue to being a supersized person. Open communication is the key to understanding.
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Old 10-02-2009, 04:55 PM   #27
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Cool thread.

Comments or attitudes from FA's that spur the notion of fat being anything other than a good thing reek of over compensation to me. Like you said, they are more speaking to themselves, because acknowledging some of the harder truths can lead to uncomfortable reflections. The example you gave about the guy suggesting different clothing, whilst certainly insensitive, seems more like cognitive dissonance than anything else. The thought process of that person ends up in a different place as a self defence mechanism. The idea that clothing is the problem is far more comfortable than having to acknowledge that the persons size, something they love, is causing them misery to any degree.

As a veteran wallower myself, I see where you're coming from in regards to the idea that as FA's we are somewhat doomed to straddle the line between guilt and denial, but I think it's a very glass half empty perception of our lot in life.

Fo what it's worth, in recent months I have found a measure of peace in regard to my FA-ness by taking the burden of my partners well-being off of my own shoulders. Whilst locked in the millionth endless conversation about the guilt I felt, my girlfriend sighed deeply and said something along the lines of 'How about you trust in my ability to look out for myself and know what's best for me. It's patronizing and self-centered that you talk about me as though I have no will of my own. I'm an adult and I know what I want. Enough with this shit. Lets talk about what dog we are going to get? I like spaniels...' then we talked about dogs for an hour instead of guilt. It was way more enjoyable.

Something about that clicked and I've been pretty chilled about the whole thing since. Trusting that the people we are attracted to are adults who make their own choices is as important as questioning our own actions. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking the hard questions of yourself, but dwelling forever is not the answer either. Talking about dogs is way more fun.
You know Ben I agree completely with the bolded statements here but what about when our mate can't catch her breath, is at risk of stroke or can barely walk without pain? It's all cupcakes and puppy dogs until the bill comes due. I'm old enough, as are my recent partners, to be dealing with those things. If I support or condone a dangerous choice I live with those consequences almost as much as she does. Every FA has to resolve what he can live with. Some do it sooner than others. Some put it off until it's too late. If my current pleasure somehow exacerbates her future pain how much can I really enjoy it? No easy answer in my experience.

Good inquiry though, Dr. P!
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:53 AM   #28
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You know Ben I agree completely with the bolded statements here but what about when our mate can't catch her breath, is at risk of stroke or can barely walk without pain? It's all cupcakes and puppy dogs until the bill comes due. I'm old enough, as are my recent partners, to be dealing with those things. If I support or condone a dangerous choice I live with those consequences almost as much as she does. Every FA has to resolve what he can live with. Some do it sooner than others. Some put it off until it's too late. If my current pleasure somehow exacerbates her future pain how much can I really enjoy it? No easy answer in my experience.

Good inquiry though, Dr. P!

ok I'm now starting to get a better understanding of what you guys are talking about. When it comes to the extremes of someones behavior, I dont hesitate to express my concern and draw a line. I dont care if its eating, snorting coke, sex, emotional outburts, overworking, etc. If someone is on the downward spiral, I express my concern. If they blow off my feeling on the situation...then fuck them...because I have better things to do than watch someone destroy themselves.

I have been called a "ice queen" or bitch but hey.. at least I'm honest with myself and them. I have a very dark side that I keep in check...so I have to be straight up with people in order to avoid situations that would bring it out. I hold myself accountable for MY actions. I do realize that some people dont. So with them..I express my concern..if they change ... I stay...if they dont...I walk away. Its not easy but neither is extracting a rotten tooth, but its better to extract it than waste time/energy/money/your (mental,physical,spirtual) health on saving something ...you know has no hope.... because it might poison you.

One motto I do live by is...If you really love and care for someone, you can let them go. Sometimes the best medicine for a situation is to take a step back and let things settle down, because your emotions and whatnot are just a fuel to the fire.
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:42 AM   #29
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You know Ben I agree completely with the bolded statements here but what about when our mate can't catch her breath, is at risk of stroke or can barely walk without pain? It's all cupcakes and puppy dogs until the bill comes due. ...
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ok I'm now starting to get a better understanding of what you guys are talking about. When it comes to the extremes of someones behavior, I dont hesitate to express my concern and draw a line. I dont care if its eating, snorting coke, sex, emotional outburts, overworking, etc. If someone is on the downward spiral, I express my concern. If they blow off my feeling on the situation...then fuck them...because I have better things to do than watch someone destroy themselves.
I'm putting both of these together because I think somewhere in the juncture or collision, or what have you of these thoughts is where I think some of the motivation for the denial comes from. I think where things get tricky (and I'm just being honest about this) is that I think some FA/FFAs who are attracted to super sized (I really dislike that term, but it's all I have) people wonder/fear if there is a silent encouragement that is detrimental to the other person, simply because he or she is a fat admirer who prefers super sized people. I think that's what Ernest is sort of getting at. Chicken legs stated earlier that being super sized is a luxury (I forgot the exact word you used, but that's the general idea) of the young and strong. But Ernest is a fair bit older than you and I and he's seen that down the road it isn't easy for a super sized 50 something to suddenly lose weight. I think that's what he's talking about anyway. And in terms of the denial the thread is addressing, I think sometimes us younger fat admirers, somewhere in the back of our minds, see that reality down the road for the people we're attracted to and a defense mechanism of denial springs up. (I, of course, am not talking about all of us). Some go the other way and wallow in guilt, too. But I think some fat admirers want to push down those doubts, fears and guilt so badly that they end up refusing to accept that weight loss may be necessary, or that sometimes life is just hard for a fat person and there is no solution to the problem, just commiseration from those who understand. I think it's a feeling of fear and helplessness on the part of some fat admirers that lead them to post things that make them seem sort of callous, or out of touch with fat people's reality. But, as Ben and Carrie's posts point out that also can lead to us being constantly patronizing to the people we love. In individual relationships, couples can work it out, of course. But as for the dynamics on the boards as a whole, I was wondering if there is a way that we can find balance on both sides so that fat admiration and size acceptance can, in fact, peacefully coexist. Does that make sense? I'm tired today and may not be making as much sense as I'd hoped.
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Old 10-03-2009, 11:59 AM   #30
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The reason I dont have guilt and what not is because I have a supersized sister, brother, and neice. I have watched my brother and sister slowly grow in size. I have watched my neice struggle with weight since birth. I know it is part genetics and it is also a result of their states of mind.

Either way these family members were built to be big. They have larger bone structures than other family members and they are the physically stronger than most other members of my family. Their appetites and diets have not really changed over the years..all though they do have huge ones..only their level of activity has varied according to their state of mind and desire.

In the case of my older brother, at one point his weight peaked at the high 300's. At that time, I said.. you have a choice (I had a bad feeling he was close to a heart attack), either die and leave your (at the time) pre-teen sons to fend for themselves...or watch your diet to improve your health..so you can be there for them. He chose to improve his diet. He lost weight and even started taking more interest in his sons and just recently took a second honeymoon in Hawaii.

In the case of my older sister, she is in the mid to high 300's. I dont sense death in her near future but her level of health is not good, and she is rather depressed most of the time. However, she doesnt want to discipline herself for the greater good of her kids and to me that is selfish. So I told her just make sure her insurances are paid and keep her will up to date.. to insure her kids futures...and I leave it at that.

In the case of my niece..she has always been big. She was a big baby and was really chunky in her preteens. By the time she was in high school she was already in the 300 range. However, she has always been big boned, extremely strong, with a huge appetite. So with her..i just say accept yourself..you're just naturally bigger than most. I do encourage her to workout and make it as routine as brushing one's teeth in the morning.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I understand that it is genetics and how that person decides to express their genetic predisposition is up to them. In all three cases ..they had/have the choice of being either huge in a fat way...or huge in a muscular way..or learning to strike the balance between those two states.

Its also up to them to either take my comments as negative or postive. In the end, we all have to lay in the beds we made. If you chose to whine and complain about it dont expect me to listen. If you chose to accept it with grace and dignity ..I am all for it. If you chose to change...I'll be there to support you.
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Old 10-03-2009, 12:03 PM   #31
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Cool thread.

Comments or attitudes from FA's that spur the notion of fat being anything other than a good thing reek of over compensation to me. Like you said, they are more speaking to themselves, because acknowledging some of the harder truths can lead to uncomfortable reflections. The example you gave about the guy suggesting different clothing, whilst certainly insensitive, seems more like cognitive dissonance than anything else. The thought process of that person ends up in a different place as a self defence mechanism. The idea that clothing is the problem is far more comfortable than having to acknowledge that the persons size, something they love, is causing them misery to any degree.

As a veteran wallower myself, I see where you're coming from in regards to the idea that as FA's we are somewhat doomed to straddle the line between guilt and denial, but I think it's a very glass half empty perception of our lot in life.

Fo what it's worth, in recent months I have found a measure of peace in regard to my FA-ness by taking the burden of my partners well-being off of my own shoulders. Whilst locked in the millionth endless conversation about the guilt I felt, my girlfriend sighed deeply and said something along the lines of 'How about you trust in my ability to look out for myself and know what's best for me. It's patronizing and self-centered that you talk about me as though I have no will of my own. I'm an adult and I know what I want. Enough with this shit. Lets talk about what dog we are going to get? I like spaniels...' then we talked about dogs for an hour instead of guilt. It was way more enjoyable.

Something about that clicked and I've been pretty chilled about the whole thing since. Trusting that the people we are attracted to are adults who make their own choices is as important as questioning our own actions. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking the hard questions of yourself, but dwelling forever is not the answer either. Talking about dogs is way more fun.
That is exactly what I was trying to get at once in a thread I don't remember...I was trying to ask a question about pity...your girlfriend expressed it in a way I couldn't at the time, since it was a half formed thought, but as I read this I realized that yes, sometimes that concern that you all have - the guilt and denial - can smack of patronizing pity. It can make a fat person feel like they are being excused for being fat or given permission to be fat, which is I see now from your post that isn't an F/FA's intention. It's crazy how easy it is to misunderstand each other too. That fat people don't always experience the exact same issues probably confuses things even more for both fat folks and other F/FAs.

I have to wonder too how much the internet plays a part in it. Does being able to use this medium make communication and understanding each other easier or more difficult?
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Old 10-03-2009, 12:39 PM   #32
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That is exactly what I was trying to get at once in a thread I don't remember...I was trying to ask a question about pity...your girlfriend expressed it in a way I couldn't at the time, since it was a half formed thought, but as I read this I realized that yes, sometimes that concern that you all have - the guilt and denial - can smack of patronizing pity. It can make a fat person feel like they are being excused for being fat or given permission to be fat, which is I see now from your post that isn't an F/FA's intention. It's crazy how easy it is to misunderstand each other too. That fat people don't always experience the exact same issues probably confuses things even more for both fat folks and other F/FAs.

I have to wonder too how much the internet plays a part in it. Does being able to use this medium make communication and understanding each other easier or more difficult?
I don't know olwen, I think I may have met a BBW from the internet who I seem to get along with in real life.

Seriously, I think the internet makes it both more difficult and less. It depends on who you are. For example, if a BBW wondered about what Ben said in his post, but never met an FA willing to talk about it....there could be less understanding. On the other hand, there are things posted here that probably most of us wish we never had to contemplate in terms of creepiness or other things. That's what I meant earlier when I said some of the FA posts that seem callous, even if moderated, they're out there and become part of the Dims collective psyche. Now if a BBW or BHM only knew fat admirers from befriending or dating them in real life, they would view all fat admirers through the prism of that person and A LOT would be riding on that one person's personality. So, it's tough to say. It would depend on individual experiences, I think.

As for the patronizing pity issue, this is where I think there is a real disconnect. I think a lot of times it comes across that way, but it really is from a place of fear or denial on the part of the F/FA. Chicken legs post about healthy super sized people is definitely true, but the flip side is coming on to Dims after a SSBBW has passed on, or some other issue. It can really shake up an F/FA. A lot (certainly NOT all) of us have wrestled with feeling like monsters. After time spent here or in real world situations, it usually goes away, but initially I think a lot of fat admirers DO feel responsible for if not actually possessive of the fat partner's fat. It's ridiculous, of course, but emotions aren't logical. Then, the fat admirer gets all caught up in the fear, self loathing, etc and it can take a while to get to a place of ease. But some never get there. Or some get there and still fear for the future. Or they have had past experiences that reinforced their fears. It can all be very confusing. When I read a lot of the overzealous posts from F/FAs that seem to brush off a health concern, I read denial, denial, denial. Whereas, they would be better off most likely facing the fears, going through the guilt and coming out the other side more adjusted. But while I applaud Chicken legs' balanced perspective, I think it is the rare F/FA who comes to that conclusion right away. I think one way or another we either wallow or deny. But again, I don't think it's from a place of pity. I always think it comes from the basic question (and please no one flame me, I'm not saying I agree with this) "What if society IS right? What if being fat IS unhealthy?" I think there can be those doubts. I think those doubts can be buried so far down that a fat admirer may not even have any idea that they have them. But on some visceral level it causes a gut reaction and leads to strange posts. Add to that that a thin/ner fat admirer doesn't have first hand experience and so we don't actually know how it is to be fat. Sure, there are many healthy fat people here. But there are also some who aren't or who aren't happy with their weight still. So for an F/FA that can seem disorienting I think....sometimes. At least as they're sorting it out. And different fat admirers will come to different conclusions. Some will end up totally well adjusted, some will live their lives in guilt, some will go into denial. The denial group was who I was particularly addressing. They don't get talked about much.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:29 AM   #33
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I've looked as best I'm able and I don't honestly feel either pity or guilt enter significantly into what I've experienced. I definitely don't feel I've "wallowed" in anything. I'd give my left nut not to have to deal with such health/coping issues as living with a SSBBW presents. I don't get any juice or feel noble for dealing with it. It's just what's there to do when you love someone.

There were a LOT of other things wrong with my marriage that had nothing to do with her size. Her inability to care for herself made leaving more difficult, both emotionally and financially, but it didn't make it less necessary. I'm not especially emotionally aware but I'm pretty sure all I ever felt in response to my ex's health and mobility issues was normal concern for another human being? Someone you care about hurts or struggles and your heart goes out to them. Is there something wrong with that? Is expressing it somehow offensive to people here?

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but as I read through this thread it feels like some expect FA's to just be oblivious to our partners reality. Robert Heinlein defined love as "that state of existence wherein another persons happiness and well-being becomes essential to your own." What do you do when someone's key source of happiness (food) is damaging their well-being beyond repair? I've made my choice and I'll live with it. I'm not criticizing anyone who chooses differently but I hope my perspective can be accorded at least some understanding, if not respect.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:29 PM   #34
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Ernest, I don't think it's that we expect FAs to be oblivious, I think perhaps it's just a fine line that you all have to walk sometimes. Every fat person is different in their attitudes about their own bodies and health, so I suppose in some ways it's the fat person who determines how hard that line is for FAs to walk....
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Old 10-06-2009, 11:01 AM   #35
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Ernest, I don't think it's that we expect FAs to be oblivious, I think perhaps it's just a fine line that you all have to walk sometimes. Every fat person is different in their attitudes about their own bodies and health, so I suppose in some ways it's the fat person who determines how hard that line is for FAs to walk....
Thanks. I do understand that Olwen. I just think my inability to say "no" or to be with another person's near term suffering makes me an unsuitable candidate for relationships with the kind of women I'm attracted to, Every pot doesn't have a lid that fits, or so it seems?
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Old 10-09-2009, 08:29 AM   #36
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...I'm not really sure what my questions are....I guess it's just do you feel as a fat admirer that you sometimes put reality on hold in order to feel less threatened by the challenges that fat people face? Or do you go the other way and wallow in guilt?...
I think that is one of the essential conundrums FAs face. We love fat people, we're drawn to them, fatness itself is this wondrous thing to us, yet we see the struggles and challenges that fatness can cause. I think that different people are dealing with this in different ways. Some may try to put on rose-colored glasses whereas others beat themselves up.

The way I see it, when you have a fat partner, their reality does to some extent become your reality and a lot of stuff becomes the norm in your life, and some of those challenges no longer seem extraordinary or insurmountable.

There are, of course, those days when things look grim and it's easy to fall into doubt and guilt. It's then good to remember that your partner most likely would still be fat without you, but then may not have a supportive other to share things with.

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Old 10-09-2009, 08:32 AM   #37
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...I have to wonder too how much the internet plays a part in it. Does being able to use this medium make communication and understanding each other easier or more difficult?
Lest we use the medium to carve out fiefdoms, I should very much hope the former!
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Old 10-09-2009, 10:28 AM   #38
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It's then good to remember that your partner most likely would still be fat without you, but then may not have a supportive other to share things with.
Thank you so much for saying this, Conrad. Quoted for truth.

I have gained weight when with two partners, one of whom was, ironically, a non-FA who found my weight gain unattractive (which depressed me and made me eat more/compulsively/emotionally blahblah etc. vicious cycle). I've never gained weight because of an involvement with a FA*, and I've never lost considerable weight after breaking up with one. My body seems to be the sole captain of the Carrie-weight ship. I am pretty content and do pretty well in general living the single life, but like anyone, regardless of size, I find being in a relationship with a supportive, caring partner who can help with the hard stuff (and that goes both ways) can really be a blessing.

*One thing I'm mulling is, I wonder if sometimes FAs who have experienced a partner gaining weight while they were together were, in some cases, witnessing the results of emotional eating caused by relationship or life circumstance stress, but attributed the gain somehow to their FA-ness, rather than what is, essentially, an eating disorder? In my last relationship with a FA, it was a long-distance relationship, and the stress of his experiencing a life-changing accident and two of my beloved dogs dying suddenly within a few months of each other drove me to compulsively overeat over a long period of time, to help deal with the stress and anxiety and sadness. I gained a considerable amount of weight during that time, but it had zippity to do with his being a FA, and everything to do with my lacking better coping abilities. Now that I have had a chance to recover and heal some and work on my habits, my eating is normal and my weight has balanced back out. So I don't know. Obviously not all fatties carry around the emotional/stress eating monkey on our backs, but some of us certainly do. Just something for the FAs to consider when worrying about blame, I suppose.
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Old 10-09-2009, 11:51 AM   #39
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Thank you so much for saying this, Conrad. Quoted for truth.

I have gained weight when with two partners, one of whom was, ironically, a non-FA who found my weight gain unattractive (which depressed me and made me eat more/compulsively/emotionally blahblah etc. vicious cycle). I've never gained weight because of an involvement with a FA*, and I've never lost considerable weight after breaking up with one. My body seems to be the sole captain of the Carrie-weight ship. I am pretty content and do pretty well in general living the single life, but like anyone, regardless of size, I find being in a relationship with a supportive, caring partner who can help with the hard stuff (and that goes both ways) can really be a blessing.

*One thing I'm mulling is, I wonder if sometimes FAs who have experienced a partner gaining weight while they were together were, in some cases, witnessing the results of emotional eating caused by relationship or life circumstance stress, but attributed the gain somehow to their FA-ness, rather than what is, essentially, an eating disorder? In my last relationship with a FA, it was a long-distance relationship, and the stress of his experiencing a life-changing accident and two of my beloved dogs dying suddenly within a few months of each other drove me to compulsively overeat over a long period of time, to help deal with the stress and anxiety and sadness. I gained a considerable amount of weight during that time, but it had zippity to do with his being a FA, and everything to do with my lacking better coping abilities. Now that I have had a chance to recover and heal some and work on my habits, my eating is normal and my weight has balanced back out. So I don't know. Obviously not all fatties carry around the emotional/stress eating monkey on our backs, but some of us certainly do. Just something for the FAs to consider when worrying about blame, I suppose.
Apologies for commenting on my own post, but in continuing to think about this, it also occurs to me that it wasn't just the eating that put the weight on during this particular time period to which I alluded in my post; it was also the combination of a few physical injuries and complications which I ignored because I already felt so overwhelmed by life in general. My mobility declined, so my activity level followed suit. I'm kind of wondering if I'd had a concerned FA partner at the time who was there seeing me get a little more stiff and painful each day, and who voiced his concerns to me, if that would have forced me out of my denial and realize much sooner how badly I needed to get to a doctor and start physical therapy, etc. I don't know, but again, it's just another thought about the dynamics of the (F)FA/fat person relationship.
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Old 10-09-2009, 11:57 AM   #40
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Apologies for commenting on my own post, but in continuing to think about this, it also occurs to me that it wasn't just the eating that put the weight on during this particular time period to which I alluded in my post; it was also the combination of a few physical injuries and complications which I ignored because I already felt so overwhelmed by life in general. My mobility declined, so my activity level followed suit. I'm kind of wondering if I'd had a concerned FA partner at the time who was there seeing me get a little more stiff and painful each day, and who voiced his concerns to me, if that would have forced me out of my denial and realize much sooner how badly I needed to get to a doctor and start physical therapy, etc. I don't know, but again, it's just another thought about the dynamics of the (F)FA/fat person relationship.
Sorry about your doggies *big hug*
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Old 10-09-2009, 12:13 PM   #41
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Apologies for commenting on my own post, but in continuing to think about this, it also occurs to me that it wasn't just the eating that put the weight on during this particular time period to which I alluded in my post; it was also the combination of a few physical injuries and complications which I ignored because I already felt so overwhelmed by life in general. My mobility declined, so my activity level followed suit. I'm kind of wondering if I'd had a concerned FA partner at the time who was there seeing me get a little more stiff and painful each day, and who voiced his concerns to me, if that would have forced me out of my denial and realize much sooner how badly I needed to get to a doctor and start physical therapy, etc. I don't know, but again, it's just another thought about the dynamics of the (F)FA/fat person relationship.
I know that it would not have helped me, probably would have made matters much worse. The thing about the grieving process is that there is no other way to get past them, you have to go THROUGH them. I have every confidence in myself knowing that eventually I would pull myself out of it but only when I am ready, no sooner. A concerned partner's handwringing over me and trying to rush me along would have made for many many fights. My hope would be that my partner would have the same kind of confidence in me that I have in myself but I realize that may be a tall order when you're the partner and you're worried. There's got to be a happy medium though. People do manage to survive these slumps somehow.
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Old 10-09-2009, 12:36 PM   #42
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Sorry about your doggies *big hug*
Thanks, C. It was a few years ago, so I'm okay now.

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I know that it would not have helped me, probably would have made matters much worse. The thing about the grieving process is that there is no other way to get past them, you have to go THROUGH them. I have every confidence in myself knowing that eventually I would pull myself out of it but only when I am ready, no sooner. A concerned partner's handwringing over me and trying to rush me along would have made for many many fights. My hope would be that my partner would have the same kind of confidence in me that I have in myself but I realize that may be a tall order when you're the partner and you're worried. There's got to be a happy medium though. People do manage to survive these slumps somehow.
I agree with that, but there's a big difference between incessant fussing/hovering and hand-wringing (annoying as hell, I agree), and just saying, "Hey, I noticed today while we were at the store that your knees seem to be getting more painful lately. Do you think you should maybe see a doctor for that?". And just disregard size vs. non-size issues for a moment: if I were with someone who had a persistent cough, for instance, I'd sure as hell mention it and suggest it might be time to see a doctor. I was in such denial about how quickly I was declining at the time, it just makes me wonder what might have happened if I had been forced to stop and just think about it, even for just a moment - which I was patently refusing to do at the time. That's what I meant, not like partner-parenting and co-opting the other partner's responsibility for his/herself, which is definitely not my cup of tea. Ick. I was referring more to the happy medium you referenced, L, though I may not have expressed that well.

Anyway. I definitely don't want to make this thread about me! I was just hoping to present one pro-FA fat girl's experience and resulting viewpoint.
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Old 10-09-2009, 03:16 PM   #43
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I think this post from the "What is making you sad right now?" thread pretty well sums up my feelings? "Watching someone you love make huge and clear mistakes and not being able to do anything about it."

As a long-time partner of SSBBW I understand it's my place to support, not to intercede; to listen, not to lecture; to somehow tacitly accept without implicitly approving of self-destructive choices but none of that makes it any easier. Yes, I respect her accountability for her life but I also have to be responsible for what's happening to me as a result of staying in a relationship with her as well.

When she can't walk without pain and exhaustion or can't sleep or breathe comfortably, should I be able to just say "Oops! Her life, her call." and pretend not to notice? I know this comparison is not generally acceptable here but if I were a substance abuser who refused help should she just chalk it up to personal lifestyle decisions and dutifully try to focus on how much she loves me? Marriage means working things out together, compromising and forgiving (among other things). I don't think it means ignoring the need for treatment/intervention because "that would just add to her burden".

This is one of the darkest and most difficult issues FA's have to deal with, IMO. It's not easy for me to have this conversation and unless it's making a difference for someone I'm about fried even thinking about it. I apologize if I seem strident or defensive. Some wounds only hold so much salt.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:13 PM   #44
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I was widowed in 2003, and when I saw another FA asking about concerns with health and longevity and such, my reply was this: No matter how healthy partners are, a life-long relationship will end with one partner burying the other. That is the most realistic way to look at it, and there's nothing wrong with it. We are all mortals, none of us know whether injuries external or internal will take us down, and we all want love and friendship while we are still here.

I have gotten to the point, at my early 40s, that I feel that guilt and shame and embarrassment are utterly useless emotions cultivated by the most hateful elements in our society. I try to keep them out of my mind as much as possible, and to hell with anyone who deals in them - in fact those who deal in them most are often the ones most deserving of them in the first place!
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:34 PM   #45
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I was widowed in 2003, and when I saw another FA asking about concerns with health and longevity and such, my reply was this: No matter how healthy partners are, a life-long relationship will end with one partner burying the other. That is the most realistic way to look at it, and there's nothing wrong with it. We are all mortals, none of us know whether injuries external or internal will take us down, and we all want love and friendship while we are still here.

I have gotten to the point, at my early 40s, that I feel that guilt and shame and embarrassment are utterly useless emotions cultivated by the most hateful elements in our society. I try to keep them out of my mind as much as possible, and to hell with anyone who deals in them - in fact those who deal in them most are often the ones most deserving of them in the first place!
That is SO good and SO appropriate I want to put it on a cracker and EAT it and make it a permanent part of my innards!! Great post Elfcat.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:36 PM   #46
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I have gotten to the point, at my early 40s, that I feel that guilt and shame and embarrassment are utterly useless emotions cultivated by the most hateful elements in our society. I try to keep them out of my mind as much as possible, and to hell with anyone who deals in them - in fact those who deal in them most are often the ones most deserving of them in the first place!
Yeah, excellent post, Elfcat....especially the first part of this paragraph.
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Old 10-16-2009, 09:45 AM   #47
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I was widowed in 2003, and when I saw another FA asking about concerns with health and longevity and such, my reply was this: No matter how healthy partners are, a life-long relationship will end with one partner burying the other. That is the most realistic way to look at it, and there's nothing wrong with it. We are all mortals, none of us know whether injuries external or internal will take us down, and we all want love and friendship while we are still here.

I have gotten to the point, at my early 40s, that I feel that guilt and shame and embarrassment are utterly useless emotions cultivated by the most hateful elements in our society. I try to keep them out of my mind as much as possible, and to hell with anyone who deals in them - in fact those who deal in them most are often the ones most deserving of them in the first place!
First, sincere condolences for your loss. Not disagreeing with you re guilt, shame or embarrassment. Totally pointless. What do you do with concern though? Mortality is a given, I get that. Thin people have health issues, I get that too. What do you do when someone's quality of life is declining and they won't address it?

If you haven't lived with someone whose every move is difficult and painful, can't sleep comfortably, drive safely or take care of herself, please don't judge. To watch someone you care deeply about suffering and be able to do nothing to change that sucks on many levels. It's hard not to second-guess yourself; what should you have seen/done differently? You can call wanting to diminish the pain of a loved one guilt, I suppose, but I prefer to think of it as a simple matter of conscience. Can I tacitly condone self-destructive behavior in a partner? Not indefinitely was the answer in my case. I hope others answers and circumstances are easier.
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:38 AM   #48
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I think where things get tricky (and I'm just being honest about this) is that I think some FA/FFAs who are attracted to super sized (I really dislike that term, but it's all I have) people wonder/fear if there is a silent encouragement that is detrimental to the other person, simply because he or she is a fat admirer who prefers super sized people. I think that's what Ernest is sort of getting at. Chicken legs stated earlier that being super sized is a luxury (I forgot the exact word you used, but that's the general idea) of the young and strong.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with being attracted to "super-sized" (for lack of a better term) people; nor do I see it as "enabling."

It might make it a bit clearer to specify what level of attraction we're talking about. If I look at a photo of a very fat man, and I find it attractive, I'm probably not thinking of whether or not he has personal health problems, etc. Later, if I learn something about him (like perhaps that he *does* have medical problems), I'm more likely to feel guilty for just seeing him as a beautiful body, rather than a person with a life and problems which go beyond just the pretty picture.

Then, as you meet someone personally, I guess it depends on the level of involvement. There are big differences in commitment, obviously, between someone you casually date, and a long-term committed relationship. But IMO everyone should be treated with respect, and that respect includes listening to how *they* feel about being fat, and never treating them as something *only* for your own pleasure.

My experience is with a long marriage. For me, I want my husband to be healthy and be around for a long time. So I encourage him to be careful about his eating; I cook healthfully; I encourage him to work out. If it means he were to become smaller, then I would live with it.

Which segues into that I dont' see anything wrong with people deciding to lose weight, however they try it, when there are health reasons. It's not up to someone else to judge how the very fat person has to live in their own body. Sometimes living in that body can be difficult. It's not realistic to act as if that isn't sometimes the case.

Ernst Nagel, what you bring up is a very serious issue for a lot of people, and not always in reference to size. There are people with diabetes (thin ones!) who don't monitor their blood sugar or take their meds. Others ignore their well-being in other ways. But even when people do "everything right," sometimes their bodies just fail. This is a great and scary sorrow, made worse by loving someone whose body isn't considered "acceptable" for all kinds of reasons.

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Old 10-18-2009, 08:31 AM   #49
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Personally, I don't see anything wrong with being attracted to "super-sized" (for lack of a better term) people; nor do I see it as "enabling."

It might make it a bit clearer to specify what level of attraction we're talking about. If I look at a photo of a very fat man, and I find it attractive, I'm probably not thinking of whether or not he has personal health problems, etc. Later, if I learn something about him (like perhaps that he *does* have medical problems), I'm more likely to feel guilty for just seeing him as a beautiful body, rather than a person with a life and problems which go beyond just the pretty picture.

Then, as you meet someone personally, I guess it depends on the level of involvement. There are big differences in commitment, obviously, between someone you casually date, and a long-term committed relationship. But IMO everyone should be treated with respect, and that respect includes listening to how *they* feel about being fat, and never treating them as something *only* for your own pleasure.

My experience is with a long marriage. For me, I want my husband to be healthy and be around for a long time. So I encourage him to be careful about his eating; I cook healthfully; I encourage him to work out. If it means he were to become smaller, then I would live with it.

Which segues into that I dont' see anything wrong with people deciding to lose weight, however they try it, when there are health reasons. It's not up to someone else to judge how the very fat person has to live in their own body. Sometimes living in that body can be difficult. It's not realistic to act as if that isn't sometimes the case.

Ernst Nagel, what you bring up is a very serious issue for a lot of people, and not always in reference to size. There are people with diabetes (thin ones!) who don't monitor their blood sugar or take their meds. Others ignore their well-being in other ways. But even when people do "everything right," sometimes their bodies just fail. This is a great and scary sorrow, made worse by loving someone whose body isn't considered "acceptable" for all kinds of reasons.

I totally agree, that people should make their own decisions about their own bodies. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world, and we are judged by the choices that we make. And, people (if they mean it or not) question the choices other people make, and believe that in certain cases they have the right to intervene. Especially if they can't get mind around the reasons behind those choices. And especially if one thinks the one is suffering or is in denial.

Not that I am saying that all BBWs are suffering, just that people usually associate the issues one has with ones body (especially with ones weight) with suffering.

Not saying it's right or wrong, just human behavior.
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