The FA closet. Are you in or out?

[LillyBBBW]

Originally Posted by pickleman357

a) Well, what do we do about the assholes that do say "fat women look like pigs so if you like them you must be a zoophile"? How many women here have gotten moo-ed at at sometime in their life?

A sexy skinny girl getting offended because there's actualy a guy out there that doesn't think she's sexy is nothing compared to the offence that a BBW has to go through every day;

• Being teased in school
• being treated like they have cancer or something by doctors
• being told they're going to die by news and media
• being told they're ugly every time they walk past a magazine stand
• etc...

I think a little taste of what BBWs have to go through EVERY DAY, would be very educational for them.

This is also called counterculture. It needs to happen so we can change the status quo..... unless you're happy with it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterculture

b) Anyone who thinks along these lines
"All my friends think I just married her 'cuz I couldn't get a skinny girl."
deserves a smack across the face in one way or another. Are you saying we should just let this ignorance reign?

c) Soo.... when an FA is attacked, and someone insults his wife, he should just withdraw?
I'm not withdrawing, if someone insults the woman I love, I stand up for her, period.

Actually, I talked this over with my g/f and she actually came up with a wonderful idea that I think would work wonderfully. If anyone suggests to me that I'm only with my g/f because I couldnt' get a skinny girl, she suggested this. Start talking about how much I love her fat, how her back rolls excite me and how I want to put my dick in her back cleavage, how her upper arm fat is like another pair of boobs, how glorious the feeling is when she's on top of me and I'm being crushed, etc.
I don't think they'll doubt you, or ever bring up the subject again.

Is that a better reply?

You know I used to believe this. I changed my mind though because I got tired of devoting so much of my time to people who don't deserve it, when I'd much rather focus my attention on the people who matter in life. What sealed it for me was when I was out with a guy I was seeing (my first feeder! lol) and we were in the midst of a really special moment. We just sat there in silence for a moment or two when some young thuggish dudes walked by and made a noise. Man, I don't know what it was and I don't even think they were directing it at me, I don't know. My boyfriend got so angry that he began to engage these clods. I whined and said, no, but off he went and the spell was broken. People like that steal more from us than they should be allowed to. By all means stand up for yourself pickleman but don't get so engaged in the battle that you forget the ones closest to you who are more important and engaging.

[pickleman357]

All I'm doing is being myself. I have never been in the closet, nor will I ever. If I had the money I would put a picture of myself on a billboard with the words saying "I love fat chicks!"

Change only happens when people refuse to back down. For example

Parks, Rosa Louise
Parks, Rosa Louise, 1913–2005, American civil-rights activist, b. Tuskegee, Ala., as Rosa Louise McCauley. A seamstress and long-time member of the Montgomery, Ala., chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), her Dec. 1, 1955, arrest for refusing to give up her seat on a municipal bus to a white man sparked the Montgomery bus boycott. This successful protest, which lasted just over a year, marked the emergence of Martin Luther King, Jr., to national prominence as a civil-rights leader and provided the model for future nonviolent movement actions. Fired from her job and unable to find work, Parks moved in 1957 to Detroit, where she remained active in the civil-rights movement and worked (1965–88) as an aide to Congressman John Conyers. She was awarded the Congressional Gold Medal, Congress's highest honor, in 1999.

Discrimination is discrimination. Its not going to change until someone does something. And sometimes all it needs is one person to refuse to back down to start it.

So if I'm going about it the wrong way Lilly and Traci, what would you suggest I do?

[Blackjack]

Originally Posted by pickleman357

All I'm doing is being myself. I have never been in the closet, nor will I ever. If I had the money I would put a picture of myself on a billboard with the words saying "I love fat chicks!"

Change only happens when people refuse to back down. For example


Discrimination is discrimination. Its not going to change until someone does something. And sometimes all it needs is one person to refuse to back down to start it.

So if I'm going about it the wrong way Lilly and Traci, what would you suggest I do?

There's a difference between not backing down and flat-out insulting people who're completely unrelated to whatever petty squabble you're having with someone who takes issue with who gives you wood.

[Wagimawr]

Originally Posted by pickleman357

So if I'm going about it the wrong way Lilly and Traci, what would you suggest I do?

Support fat women and your taste for them WITHOUT bashing thin women and those who have a taste for them.

It's that simple.

[James]

Originally Posted by Blackjack

There's a difference between not backing down and flat-out insulting people who're completely unrelated to whatever petty squabble you're having with someone who takes issue with who gives you wood.

I agree. Walk the more noble path for as long as its possible. If people continue to be an ass then walk away. If they are your friends then reconsider that relationship with them if they are adamant about being idiots. I've only had one or two friends that I had to jettison on these grounds but I think that this is usually a better choice than descending to the same level of insulting behavior that was the problem in the first place.

[pickleman357]

Originally Posted by Blackjack

There's a difference between not backing down and flat-out insulting people who're completely unrelated to whatever petty squabble you're having with someone who takes issue with who gives you wood.

So what should I do instead?

Originally Posted by Wagimawr

Support fat women and your taste for them WITHOUT bashing thin women and those who have a taste for them.

It's that simple.

If its that simple then it should be easy to give me an example that works!

Originally Posted by James

I agree. Walk the more noble path for as long as its possible. If people continue to be an ass then walk away. If they are your friends then reconsider that relationship with them if they are adamant about being idiots. I've only had one or two friends that I had to jettison on these grounds but I think that this is usually a better choice than descending to the same level of insulting behavior that was the problem in the first place.

So then how do we stop this insulting behavior? Its not just random people on the street its also things like this!
http://ca.lifestyle.yahoo.com/fashio...eing_too_large_
So what 'noble' path should I take that will help stop this from happening?

[Wagimawr]

Actually, murder works pretty well!

[pickleman357]

Originally Posted by Wagimawr

Actually, murder works pretty well!

Not really, since they won't learn anything.

[Wagimawr]

Ah, well, if you're looking for teaching, lessons like "GIRLS YOU LIKE ARE FUCKING UGLY" aren't very useful, are they?

[pickleman357]

Originally Posted by TraciJo67

They seem directed at thin women and at the type of men who find thin women attractive, and you're splattering the innocent along with the few bigots who do fit the fat-hating mold.

Question for you though.....
What will it do to a thin woman to know, and I mean know for a fucking fact, that there guys out there that don't like thin women. That she doesn't have to be thin to be beautiful in someone's eyes?

http://www.cmha.ca/BINS/content_page.asp?cid=3-98

Our society's preoccupation with body image is reflected in the fact that, at any given time, 70% of women and 35% of men are dieting. More seriously, a 1993 Statistics Canada Survey reported that in women between the ages of 15 and 25, 1-2% have anorexia and 3-5% have bulimia. Eating disorders have the highest mortality rate of all mental illnesses, with 10% to 20% eventually dying from complications.

Do you honestly think that if everyone knew that thin wasn't nessisarily beautiful, that women could be beautiful anyway they wanted, that that mortality rate would be so high?

[LillyBBBW]

Originally Posted by pickleman357

Question for you though.....
What will it do to a thin woman to know, and I mean know for a fucking fact, that there guys out there that don't like thin women. That she doesn't have to be thin to be beautiful in someone's eyes?

http://www.cmha.ca/BINS/content_page.asp?cid=3-98



Do you honestly think that if everyone knew that thin wasn't nessisarily beautiful, that women could be beautiful anyway they wanted, that that mortality rate would be so high?

I think everybody is pretty much aware of that in life. There are few people in the world who don't feel ugly or worry that their attraction for someone else might not be mutual. Is there really a reason to get up in someone's face to say, "Damn, you iz ugly!"? People feel that because I'm fat that doing this to me is ok. The message should be "keep it to yourself, pal" -- not "these conditions make it okay, but not yours."

[TraciJo67]

Originally Posted by pickleman357

Question for you though.....
What will it do to a thin woman to know, and I mean know for a fucking fact, that there guys out there that don't like thin women. That she doesn't have to be thin to be beautiful in someone's eyes?

http://www.cmha.ca/BINS/content_page.asp?cid=3-98



Do you honestly think that if everyone knew that thin wasn't nessisarily beautiful, that women could be beautiful anyway they wanted, that that mortality rate would be so high?

pickleman, I'm a thin(nish) woman - at least, you would think so. And believe me, I know that you wouldn't find me at all attractive. And, that's OK. Also, I think that most thin women know that there are men out there who find women of all shapes and sizes to be lovely. I understand the source of your frustration. I'm not even suggesting that you choose another way to deal with assholes. I'm only saying that if educating people is a goal, alienating and insulting them isn't going to change their minds. If tit for tat is your goal, then by all means, go for it. Someone who would insult you or your girlfriend isn't worth a polite conversation. However, an entire group of people aren't who you should be angry with -- and it seems that way, from what you write. You seem to have an inherent dislike for thin women. If that's not the case, my apologies for reading you wrong.

[rollhandler]

Originally Posted by kioewen

I LOATHE the "in the closet" terminology, but if it gets the point across, so be it. At any rate, good poll question.

Someday, a follow-up question about how vocal FAs are about their preference would be interesting too.

I tried that earlier this year but you are right, the timing may have been off and this forum hadn't been started yet. Here is the link if anyone wants to bump the thread with a response.

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/fo...ht=flag+wavers

If the link doesn't get response I may reword the topic and repost the thread differently here in the FA forum.
Rollhandler

[pickleman357]

Originally Posted by TraciJo67

However, an entire group of people aren't who you should be angry with -- and it seems that way, from what you write. You seem to have an inherent dislike for thin women. If that's not the case, my apologies for reading you wrong.

When you put it like that... its not thin women as such. Thin women can be absolutly beautiful, just not in a sexual way in my eyes.

I think its the image of the thin women and what media has done to it that I'm against. How do you break media's hold on an image?

[Jon Blaze]

Originally Posted by pickleman357

When you put it like that... its not thin women as such. Thin women can be absolutly beautiful, just not in a sexual way in my eyes.

I think its the image of the thin women and what media has done to it that I'm against. How do you break media's hold on an image?

If that's the case, then why aren't you fighting the image they're given, while what you like is given the opposite image?

If the image that they're given is the problem, you DON'T fight them because they exist. You're suppose to be fighting against that image, and if anything to help out women in general: The fact that their bodies are a subject of public opinion on their worth.

[kioewen]

Originally Posted by rollhandler

I tried that earlier this year but you are right, the timing may have been off and this forum hadn't been started yet.

I recommend re-framing it as a poll, and putting the question to this forum. It might yield interesting results. Might.

[Teleute]

Originally Posted by pickleman357

a) Well, what do we do about the assholes that do say "fat women look like pigs so if you like them you must be a zoophile"? How many women here have gotten moo-ed at at sometime in their life?

A sexy skinny girl getting offended because there's actualy a guy out there that doesn't think she's sexy is nothing compared to the offence that a BBW has to go through every day;

• Being teased in school
• being treated like they have cancer or something by doctors
• being told they're going to die by news and media
• being told they're ugly every time they walk past a magazine stand
• etc...

I think a little taste of what BBWs have to go through EVERY DAY, would be very educational for them.

This is also called counterculture. It needs to happen so we can change the status quo..... unless you're happy with it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterculture

b) Anyone who thinks along these lines
"All my friends think I just married her 'cuz I couldn't get a skinny girl."
deserves a smack across the face in one way or another. Are you saying we should just let this ignorance reign?

c) Soo.... when an FA is attacked, and someone insults his wife, he should just withdraw?
I'm not withdrawing, if someone insults the woman I love, I stand up for her, period.

Actually, I talked this over with my g/f and she actually came up with a wonderful idea that I think would work wonderfully. If anyone suggests to me that I'm only with my g/f because I couldnt' get a skinny girl, she suggested this. Start talking about how much I love her fat, how her back rolls excite me and how I want to put my dick in her back cleavage, how her upper arm fat is like another pair of boobs, how glorious the feeling is when she's on top of me and I'm being crushed, etc.
I don't think they'll doubt you, or ever bring up the subject again.

Is that a better reply?

(bear with me, this will sound kinda strong, but I'm not actually upset with you or trying to attack you - I'm just trying to explain my initial reaction and its relationship to your approach.)

I'm aware of the definition of counterculture, thank you. And patronizing questions like "...unless you're happy with it?" don't help convert me to think "oh, he's right, this is the only way! Thank you pickleman for opening my eyes!" Instead, they piss me off and make me think "fuck it, this guy is an idiot, it's not worth explaining anything to him." I am a pretty damn patient person, but it took me a good few days to talk myself back into responding here... which I only did because I'm pretty sure you're actually trying to make a difference and not just taking pleasure in being a douche to people. I'm telling you this because it's a similar reaction to what you'll get by using your original statement. The guy isn't going to hear "you're a pedophile for liking skinny women" and think "Oh, this guy must really love fat women to have such a strong reaction." He's going to think "this pathetic little fuck who can only get fat chicks is calling me a pedophile? Who the fuck does he think he is?" There is no lesson learned here!

A lot of what you're saying seems to be based on dichotomies that don't exist. "BBWs will be the target of prejudice, or skinny women will." "You either smack someone or let their ignorance reign." "Withdraw or stand up by insulting thin women." These are not the only options! Your response to my point "b" had nothing to do with what I said. Of course I don't think ignorance should reign, or someone should just slink away if their partner is being insulted. That's preposterous, and you know it, and presenting those two approaches as the only options is a rather cheap way to make your own method look better.

What I'm saying is that it will be more effective to assert your preferences than to attack theirs. Your alternative suggestion - talking about how much you love your girlfriend's fat features - is one way to do this (also, it made me laugh). I mean, it'll probably make them think "whoa, what a freak", but it removes any doubt that you really do like the BBWs.

In regards to assholes, feel free to smack them all you want - but my point was you should be verbally bitchslapping THEM, not their preference. "You're a douche" rather than "you're a pedophile". They can't change what they find attractive any more than you can, and their preference for thin women is not what makes them an asshole - and you'd be insulting any friendly non-FAs nearby who might otherwise have supported you, not to mention the thin women. I'm not suggesting you be "wishy-washy" or just sit back and take the abuse; I'm just saying you should be calling them out on the asshole behavior rather than attacking the sexual preference of the majority of society.

Originally Posted by pickleman357

And how would you go about that without them thinking that "he's just saying that to convince himself he loves her when he actually doesn't"? Hmmm?

These were his 'friends' that made the comment. Obviously, they know him, heck they might have been at his wedding. They haven't clued in yet, and he's already probably tried the "nice" method.

So after the non-offending, nice, happy way doesn't work... then what?

Sometimes, you have to flip a few tables to get your point across.

I don't think he has tried the "nice" method; he said "I'm so in the closet it's not even funny". That doesn't sound to me like he's ever talked to them about how sexy he thinks Queen Latifah is, or mentioned how he loves seeing a woman with some belly hang, or anything else along those lines. Being vocal about loving fat women is something to try BEFORE the table-flipping.

Originally Posted by pickleman357

Question for you though.....
What will it do to a thin woman to know, and I mean know for a fucking fact, that there guys out there that don't like thin women. That she doesn't have to be thin to be beautiful in someone's eyes?

http://www.cmha.ca/BINS/content_page.asp?cid=3-98

Do you honestly think that if everyone knew that thin wasn't nessisarily beautiful, that women could be beautiful anyway they wanted, that that mortality rate would be so high?

Yeah, I think you're right that it's important to get the message out there, and I think it's awesome that you're loud and proud about loving fat women. You just don't have to tell thin women they're inherently ugly, or tell potential non-FA allies they're pedophiles, to do it. "I am not attracted to you" is not the same as "no normal person could ever be attracted to you, only pedophiles". Don't go alienating yourself from potential supporters in your attempt to change society's idea of beauty.

[pickleman357]

Originally Posted by Teleute

The guy isn't going to hear "you're a pedophile for liking skinny women" and think "Oh, this guy must really love fat women to have such a strong reaction." He's going to think "this pathetic little fuck who can only get fat chicks is calling me a pedophile? Who the fuck does he think he is?" There is no lesson learned here!

...very ture.... you're right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to everyone... I think this is just my frustration with the whole thing getting to me. I'm just cracking under the pile of WTF situtations.
Example; Oprah was being dumped on for gaining back the weight. Her friends... "friends"... said that she was a heart attack waiting to happen.
Then, you turn the page and litterally on the opposite side of the paper was an artical that says that if you want to prevent heart attacks you should eat chocolate.

Wha... huh... that's just... BLARG

Sorry again. I'm just frustrated

In regards to assholes, feel free to smack them all you want - but my point was you should be verbally bitchslapping THEM, not their preference. "You're a douche" rather than "you're a pedophile". They can't change what they find attractive any more than you can, and their preference for thin women is not what makes them an asshole - and you'd be insulting any friendly non-FAs nearby who might otherwise have supported you, not to mention the thin women. I'm not suggesting you be "wishy-washy" or just sit back and take the abuse; I'm just saying you should be calling them out on the asshole behavior rather than attacking the sexual preference of the majority of society.

Would pointing out how easily they buy into propoganda and predijuse work? Like its people like them that enabled hitler and the kkk to rise to power? Would that work?

[Wagimawr]

Originally Posted by pickleman357

hitler

[kioewen]

Originally Posted by pickleman357

. I think this is just my frustration with the whole thing getting to me. I'm just cracking under the pile of WTF situtations.

IMO, it's more like you're cracking under peer pressure here. It's an interesting case of how groupthink can affect members even of a supposedly alternative community.

I still think your initial response was the correct one. People derive great security and complacency from thinking that they're the normal ones, the ones who are in the right. By calling them pedophiles, or whatever, you might in fact shake loose that complacent self-satisfaction. I'm betting that nothing would be more appalling to them than to think that they're abnormal rather than normal. A mere wishy-washy "please, oh, please accept that there are all kinds of beauty, kumbayah" plea would be worse than useless. A firm statement is the only thing that has even a chance of affecting these kinds of personalities.

[Teleute]

pickleman, I totally understand the frustration... I didn't see the Oprah one, but that pisses me off too And it is satisfying to think of telling them off like that - I just don't think it'll work.

Originally Posted by kioewen

A mere wishy-washy "please, oh, please accept that there are all kinds of beauty, kumbayah" plea would be worse than useless.

'cause that's totally what I said. Way to read there, champ. Also, please explain to me (in short words, because clearly I'm a naive hippie who can't handle anything more mentally tasking than singing campfire songs) how exactly this is more effective? You're relying on some very big ifs here. For this plan to work, they have to be simultaneously holding on tightly to the idea that they are normal and not tightly enough to the idea of what normal is - not really a likely combination. Then, they have to have the self-awareness to think about the implications of the statement and actually have the "hey, maybe I'm not the normal one here"/"maybe normal isn't what I thought it was" revelation, rather than to just haul off and punch you in the face. Then, IF that combination of things ever happened, you've converted one or two people... but you've still pushed away all the other non-FAs and thin women in the vicinity. How is this a good thing? I get that this course of action is very satisfying as it plays out in your head, but that doesn't make it a good idea in reality.

[99Haints]

Pickle-I think it's futile to try and shout them down in some kind of might-is-right pissing contest. When they're coming at you like that, it's with a sense that they are somehow restoring the social order, and no matter how nasty or cutting your retorts are, it's all just white noise to them, and probably pretty satisfying to have you on the defense. You'll win the battle, but lose the war because you lose face and integrity in letting them push you to these desperate, hateful responses that you don't even mean.

If this open hostility is coming from an idiot family member, or someone else you can't give a "fuck off" and walk away, simply deprive them of this concede that you owe an explanation, because you don't. State your preference in a way that is strong and non-apologetic without the insecure swipes at skinny women. Flip the discussion into being one about their hang ups, not your interests. Shine a bright light on their irrational prejudice, rather than your preference, because that's the truly curious anomaly here-and they don't even know it.

[pickleman357]

When I see, in my mind, telling off a fat-biggot, the biggot is usually in a group of other biggots directly laughing at me and my g/f.

If, say, I was at a social gathering and I overheard someone say something along the lines of "I don't understand why some guys find fat women attrative." then I would polietly explain how I enjoy things about a bbw that you cannot enjoy with a slim woman. I would not bash him, or his preferences, just inform him. Example "Back rolls are great! They're like another pair of boobs that you can grope in public and not get arrested! "

I still thing there's a time and place for everything, and I understand what you're all saying, and I'll definatly take it into concideration when conversations like that come up.

How does that sound?

[freakyfred]

Me and a female friend both like chubby girls and talk about it sometimes but other than that never really been in a situation where it could be mentioned. I don't try to hide it though.