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Old 01-16-2010, 08:30 PM   #51
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A final point: there is way too much hostility to different experiences and POVs on this forum, and way too much projecting of one's own issues onto those of other posters. As a guy who is mainly attracted to smaller BBWs, and who disagrees with, say, feederism and the worship of fat at the cost of health, I don't feel like I fit in terribly well here. I will not, however, tell anyone here that they are suffering from some terrible complex and should become "celibate" so as to avoid harming others.

Hence the lurking.

There are a whole lot of anti-feeder, "smaller" (relative!), not-into-fat-worship women here than you might think. Its just that when they speak up they are...well.. you gotta be VERY careful..

Tricky.
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Old 01-16-2010, 08:36 PM   #52
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I just wanted to say thanks to Rainyday for communicating a tough truth in a way that is respectful to this space. As a mod I really appreciated reading your post and the way it was written.

I also agree that FA/FFAs should really avoid using BHMs/BBWs as a stepping stone to coming out of the closet. One of my hopes at the inception of the FA/FFA forum was that it might aid confused and/or inexperienced FA/FFAs by providing support and advice to eachother, thereby lessening the chance of them blundering awkwardly and insensitively through their initial relationships with fat partners IRL.
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Old 01-16-2010, 08:46 PM   #53
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Nevermind..I love James too much to be anything but as nice as I can be.
RedVelvet, my entire point was that everyone comes at this with different experiences, and that attitudes can vary greatly depending on those differences.

I'm truly glad that things have been relatively easy for you and I wish that were the case for more people.

I don't understand why hostility and personal attacks are necessary. You do not know about the history I've had with my "friend" and you are in absolutely no place to be so rude about it. I certainly regret mentioning it, but I thought this was a safe place.

I have not been lonely and I do not lead a lonely life. I do not advocate for any discrimination. I am a huge fan of the body acceptance movement. I'm sorry that anything I said angered you.

I am absolutely uncomfortable with any further posting on this forum, and so I wish you all the best of luck.

Edit: this is in reference to your deleted post, to which: wow.

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Old 01-16-2010, 08:46 PM   #54
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There are a whole lot of anti-feeder, "smaller" (relative!), not-into-fat-worship women here than you might think. Its just that when they speak up they are...well..considered prudes and bitches if they are not VERY careful..

Tricky.
This forum is neither pro, nor anti - feeder. Its for all FAs equally. I appreciate that the feeder topic makes some people uncomfortable by association but I ultimately hope that our commonality as women and men that are all attracted to fat people (i.e. the people that this forum is for) will be enough to foster respect for the diversity amongst us.
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Old 01-16-2010, 08:55 PM   #55
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RedVelvet, my entire point was that everyone comes at this with different experiences, and that attitudes can vary greatly depending on those differences.

I'm truly glad that things have been relatively easy for you and I wish that were the case for more people.

I don't understand why hostility and personal attacks are necessary. I thought this was a safe place.

I have not been lonely and I do not lead a lonely life. I do not advocate for any discrimination. I am a huge fan of the body acceptance movement. I'm sorry that anything I said angered you.

I am absolutely uncomfortable with any further posting on this forum, and so I wish you all the best of luck.

Edit: this is in reference to your deleted post, to which: wow.


Oh Liam....I'm sorry if you feel attacked. I honestly didn't feel anything but SAD for you. The idea that you felt that if you were perfectly honest and straightforward about your preferences with your BEST friend would mean rejection of you made my heart hurt.

Genuinely, sincerely.

I'm sorry that THAT was all it took to send you lurking again..I genuinely am.....I think its better for you if you stay and I go, instead.

I honestly hope that you become stronger about this..you will need it, don't you think? I mean ...this is obviously still conflict for you...That can't be fun.

Meanwhile...I'll be gone, ok?
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:01 PM   #56
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Oh Liam....I'm sorry if you feel attacked. I honestly didn't feel anything but SAD for you. The idea that you felt that if you were perfectly honest and straightforward about your preferences with your BEST friend would mean rejection of you made my heart hurt.

Genuinely, sincerely.

I'm sorry that THAT was all it took to send you lurking again..I genuinely am.....I think its better for you if you stay and I go, instead.

I honestly hope that you become stronger about this..you will need it, don't you think? I mean ...this is obviously still conflict for you...That can't be fun.

Meanwhile...I'll be gone, ok?
RedVelvet, you're obviously a worthwhile contributor and I don't think you should go.

If anything, I'd just ask James to delete my posts thus far since they've apparently hit a nerve, which was unintended, and because they reference people that I probably should have left out of the conversation entirely. Directing attention at them makes me exceedingly uncomfortable.

James, can you do that?
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:05 PM   #57
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RedVelvet, you're obviously a worthwhile contributor and I don't think you should go.

If anything, I'd just ask James to delete my posts thus far since they've apparently hit a nerve, which was unintended, and because they reference people that I probably should have left out of the conversation entirely. Directing attention at them makes me exceedingly uncomfortable.

James, can you do that?
I could. But I'd really rather not because I felt they were valuable and worthwhile additions to the thread. PM me if you want to discuss this further.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:15 PM   #58
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RedVelvet, you're obviously a worthwhile contributor and I don't think you should go.

If anything, I'd just ask James to delete my posts thus far since they've apparently hit a nerve, which was unintended, and because they reference people that I probably should have left out of the conversation entirely. Directing attention at them makes me exceedingly uncomfortable.

James, can you do that?


Heh..Liam..I just meant this thread! You ain't rid of me yet. I am glad you responded...

May I please just say this:

I have posted posts that become 30 pages of intense discussion. So, I really do understand the squirmy feeling you are feeling. Don't worry..Its good, even if it feels squirmy. I'm considered a nice person by some here, and a bitch by others. ( some of the "nice" camp actually know me in person, so thats a relief)...You will, unless you are completely and utterly without opinion, piss someone off eventually.

Yes, its contentious around here for people of varying opinion. The reason, one assumes, James is perfect as mod for this forum, is that he is VERY kind, for starters ...and incredibly patient with this. Also, probably runs a tight ship.

I am very attracted to the FA forum, because I love mature, smart, thoughtful FA men and women....and here's where some of them are..yay.

But..I also know I should probably avoid the forum, because its extremely difficult, as a fat person, to be thought of as a "problem" that needs to be dealt with...whether its for yourself, your workplace, society, etc.

So.....I probably shouldn't be here..and should probably just wait outside while the growth (hopefully) happens in here.

Kinda like sausage...it just tastes good...you don't wanna know how its made..


(heh...I said sausage)
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:15 PM   #59
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I could. But I'd really rather not because I felt they were valuable and worthwhile additions to the thread. PM me if you want to discuss this further.
James, I PMd you. I don't think the discussion provoked by my posts was out of line, I just revealed more information than I should have about some loved ones, and I'm not comfortable with them becoming a part of the conversation given certain issues that should remain private.

I'd like to reiterate that this isn't directly the result of the responses to my posts-- I value the free exchange of ideas, and I value the honesty of the responses. I'm not trying to back out of the conversation, just trying to protect other people's anonymity when they never asked to be part of the conversation.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:19 PM   #60
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Heh..Liam..I just meant this thread! You ain't rid of me yet. I am glad you responded...

May I please just say this:

I have posted posts that become 30 pages of intense discussion. So, I really do understand the squirmy feeling you are feeling. Don't worry..Its good, even if it feels squirmy. I'm considered a nice person by some here, and a bitch by others. ( some of the "nice" camp actually knows me in person, so thats a relief)...You will, unless you are completely and utterly without opinion, piss someone off eventually.

Yes, its contentious around here for people of varying opinion. The reason, one assumes, James is perfect as mod for this forum, is that he is VERY kind, for starters ...and incredibly patient with this. Also, probably runs a tight ship.

I am very attracted to the FA forum, because I love mature, smart, thoughtful FA men and women....and here's where some of them are..yay.

But..I also know I should probably avoid the forum, because its extremely difficult, as a fat person, to be thought of as a "problem" that needs to be dealt with...whether its for yourself, your workplace, society, etc.

So.....I probably shouldn't be here..and should probably just wait outside while the growth (hopefully) happens in here.

Kinda like sausage...it just tastes good...you don't wanna know how its made..


(heh...I said sausage)
RedVelvet, I agree with you on your points and I tend to think the conversation was worthwhile, I just realized that I posted too much information about a certain individual, and I'm not really comfortable with that given. . . some things I'd rather not discuss.

Contentiousness is fine and very often productive, I just wish I limited the scope of the conversation to myself, and I didn't.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:33 PM   #61
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I probably shouldn't be here..and should probably just wait outside while the growth (hopefully) happens in here.
I feel similarly, especially since I often resent non-BBWs posting in that forum. Thanks very much for your comments RV and James. Mostly I feel I soft pedal too much, but in this case I think getting out of the works altogether would be better. I'm out as well.

ETA: Came back to add because I'm uncomfortable about something. I just wanted to make the comment that many of the women whose posts are decried on this forum as screechy or COF or some other pejorative speak truth far more unerringly than I do. In the back and forths and name calling that truth gets ignored and written off because of style a lot. I wish it didn't. The forums are poorer for it. Apologies for the digression. Now I'm out.

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Old 01-16-2010, 09:48 PM   #62
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I feel similarly, especially since I often resent non-BBWs posting in that forum. Thanks very much for your comments RV and James. Mostly I feel I soft pedal too much, but in this case I think getting out of the works altogether would be better. I'm out as well.
I made reference to understanding what you and RV are talking about in my response to Katherine up thread. Personally speaking, I enjoy reading your inputs to discussion here and would miss your posts.

I had always thought that the subject matter of the forum was likely to upset some people for this very reason, which was the core of my logic for proposing it as a protected space in the first place. Better for a closet or transitional FA/FFA to work through stuff on an internet forum with peers, if possible, than it is to dump on a partner. I appreciate both of you for having the patience to understand that.
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Old 01-16-2010, 10:52 PM   #63
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James, thanks for your edits of my posts. Thou art truly a god among mods.

I need to remember to be a little more anonymous on "teh intarwebs;" I'm fine with being upfront with who I am but I need to protect those close to me when they aren't willing participants in the conversation. Like I said, or at least clumsily tried to, we all have our own particular history and resultant issues, and they aren't always cut-and-dry results of immaturity.

NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED: From now on, I shall only speak from my own POV and only from my own experiences and shall not bring unwilling innocents into the conversation.

Everyone else, I'd regret pushing a poster out of the conversation, so please don't leave on my account. I'd just ask that the conversation remain respectful (eg, refrain from stating that someone's life and relationships etc are "sad") as much as possible, as that certainly does not provoke any particular willingness to converse in an open and frank manner.

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Old 01-17-2010, 09:02 AM   #64
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The sticking point for me (aside from the personal relationship issues I mentioned) is discussing something so sexualized as explicit preferences; it's not something I'm willing to state in front of everyone, and in part that's because (a) there's an element of objectification involved, and (b) that level of specificity honestly doesn't hold: I date/love/am attracted to individuals, and that is of course shaped by so much more than body type.
Just to clarify, this is not what most of us are looking for in an "uncloseted" FA. I certainly don't expect a man to wear to wear a "Yay! Fat chicks!" t-shirt when we go to the movies (and would actually be pretty mortified if he did; being made into a spectacle isn't my idea of a good time), nor do I expect him to explain to the people in his life in detail why he finds fatties attractive. I don't think anyone should have to explain their (legal) sexual preferences to anyone else, and someone demanding any such explanation (beyond, perhaps, mild curiosity/trying to better understand) is pretty much being a dick. I say all this because I do seem to periodically see this misconception that an open FA is expected to preach the bible of fatness to everyone he meets, indiscriminately and loudly. Not so. Life your live, do your thing, if you (the general you, not just you, Liam) meet a fat girl you want to date, do it and treat her well. Introduce her to your friends and family, hold her hand proudly when out on dates, and never ever ever make her feel like she's something to be hidden in, well, a closet.

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But I certainly would be open about dating a bbw individually and defending her against abuse in any and all forms.
Bingo.
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:36 AM   #65
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@rainyday... Imagine some bloke dropped by a thread on body issues in the BBW board and told all BBWs with self-loathing/fat-hating/body issues that they should remain celibate because their feelings and attitudes were like a "communicable disease" which would "splatter" any prospective partner... Imagine the hurricane force shitstorm that would ensue in response to the arrogance of that... That's equivalent to what you just did here! (and it IS painful/sad/soul destroying to love someone who loathes herself, btw... But wtf, we're adults and we're none of us perfect and love ain't all roses, so we try...) @James - yes absolutely it's better for neophyte FAs to work this stuff out on here than in a relationship... But we all make mistakes (and hopefully learn from them) in our relationships... And letting people tell struggling FAs they are "diseased" isn't going to help them come out of the closet! Or make them feel ok about sharing their feelings on here..
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:40 AM   #66
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@Carrie - *changes T-shirt* :P
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:22 AM   #67
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@rainyday... Imagine some bloke dropped by a thread on body issues in the BBW board and told all BBWs with self-loathing/fat-hating/body issues that they should remain celibate because their feelings and attitudes were like a "communicable disease" which would "splatter" any prospective partner... Imagine the hurricane force shitstorm that would ensue in response to the arrogance of that... That's equivalent to what you just did here! (and it IS painful/sad/soul destroying to love someone who loathes herself, btw... But wtf, we're adults and we're none of us perfect and love ain't all roses, so we try...) @James - yes absolutely it's better for neophyte FAs to work this stuff out on here than in a relationship... But we all make mistakes (and hopefully learn from them) in our relationships... And letting people tell struggling FAs they are "diseased" isn't going to help them come out of the closet! Or make them feel ok about sharing their feelings on here..
You are probably right Jo. I thanked Rainy because she expressed a truth for many BBWs in a way that was probably about as respectful as could be while still conveying how she (and many other fat people) feel about closet FA/FFAs. Comparitively there has been much less respect shown to the purpose and users of this space by some others in the last few months and quite a few infractions have now been issued (unfortunately).I hope that people will begin to understand that I'm very serious about making the FA/FFA forum a safe space for FA/FFAs and that new or transitional FA/FFAs will feel comfortable opening up here?

To that end, I am 100% behind any and all ideas that are helpful towards FA/FFAs coming out of the closet... but I also think that it would be sad if someone did so, only to go on and treat a partner poorly. This is one of the reasons why the FA/FFA forum is not a private or exclusive space and why the constructive involvement of non- FA/FFAs is welcome here.
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:29 PM   #68
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I dated someone who was a FA and it is because of him that I gained.
He never told me he was a FA, he just encouraged my eating and always told me he would love me no matter what my size. He was and probably still is in the closet about it. I hope in time he finds what he wants and what makes him happy regardless of what he thinks others opinion of him are because of it.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:40 AM   #69
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First, A big "DITTO" on what Rainy said. She expressed that very well I thought. Whatever issues one has, it is not fair to make someone else suffer for them if we can avoid it.

Second: Liam, you are of the wrong generation and country to know this cheesy rock song, but it was popular when I was a kid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STiuregSvHg
Nothing wrong with what they say in the chorus, but mostly I want you to listen to the verses. I totally get the difficulty of your situation, but what was missing is what you intend to do about it. Sure it is far easier to say (or sing) than to actually make it happen.....but really I think this is one of the fundamentals of living a good life:

"If you don't like
What you got
Why don't you change it
If your world is all screwed up
Rearrange it
"

Because really, what is the alternative? It might take years, it might not play out the way you expected or hoped.....but if you don't try then the odds of things working how you hope are a whole lot worse!

In particular, in a system as entrenched as "BigLaw," just 'doing what you are supposed to do' and following all of the rules won't get you too far in the end. Look at the pyramid structure of those firms, there are how many eager young faces who join each year, and how many partnerships that actually come open in a year?

I can't comment on your particular firm, but from I've heard about of similar organizations maybe a few people get to the top by following all the rules and being good boys, but in general the people who come out on top are the ones who have the ability to tell anyone to screw off, and make it stick. That is to say, you have to be good at what you do (fundamental basis for respect), but then it takes confidence in that ability, and maybe more critically it takes drive--drive simply to win, drive to force a point, or drive really for anything that motivates you.

(by the way, in that sort of thing you do have to know how to win without making others lose face; really the key is staying positive and making it reasonably clear that you'll fight if you have to. Wolves don't hunt the strong elk that stands up to them, they go after the ones that look weak or that run away.)

Or, if you are not willing to force others at your firm to be grateful to have you on their team exactly as you are, then start figuring out what your exit strategy is.

Or something!
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:48 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by curvyms View Post
I dated someone who was a FA and it is because of him that I gained.
He never told me he was a FA, he just encouraged my eating and always told me he would love me no matter what my size. He was and probably still is in the closet about it. I hope in time he finds what he wants and what makes him happy regardless of what he thinks others opinion of him are because of it.
Poor you. You can do much better!!. Don't waste your sympathy on him because by him being in the closet, actually, you were the one being hurt.
My 'advice' to closeted Fas is stop being a cowardy custard! You do not get stoned to death for loving fat people.. If people like you less or are mean to you because you like fat people.. get new friends!
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Old 01-19-2010, 10:10 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by rainyday View Post
Until you have dealt with the obvious shame you feel about what you prefer, please be man enough to avoid exposing potential partners to you the same way you hopefully would if you knew you had a communicable disease. Even if that means you have to be celibate and unpartnered.
As an FA, I have to say: DARN STRAIGHT.

I think to some degree I'm seeing a fundamental confusion about what being "out" means. Being out doesn't have to mean being an activist. There are openly gay men and women who do not "flaunt" their sexuality. It is simply a part of who they are. Now, for gays and lesbians, that alone can be a very revolutionary act. For FA's, not so much. That's why I regard being an out FA as being stupendously easy and frankly I have no understanding for those insist it is somehow difficult. Compared to being an out gay person, its nothing. Compared to being a fat person, its nothing. Being an out FA requires an extraordinarily minimal amount of effort. It doesn't demand a "Yes Fatties" t-shirt. You won't need legislation to marry an opposite gender partner of your choosing. No need to add it to your business card. If you date a fat person and introduce them to your friends and family, you are an out FA. Really. That's it. It sounds like quite a lot of the self-described closeted FA's do just that. To all of you, when people complain about closeted FA's, they REALLY aren't talking about you.

We're talking about those who'd never want anyone to see them romantically involved with a fat person. That's what being in the closet means. A gay person isn't in the closet if they go out on dates, bring their boyfriend home for Thanksgiving, etc. They are in the closet if they compartmentalize their romantic relationships from other elements of their lives. Now, there is a key difference in gay people in the closet and FA's which I think obligates FA's to do exactly what Rainy requests.

In a gay relationship, BOTH partners can choose to be in the closet. I'm not saying that's a great choice, but it is one which if both partners make, treats both of them equally. No fat person can be in the closet about being fat, however, so for FA's a "choice" to be in the closet only benefits the FA. It shields them, but the act itself exposes their partners to shame and hostility. There may well be fat women who internalize that shame enough to feel they don't deserve to be treatedly like a human being by their partner, but that is no excuse. If you don't feel comfortable publicly dating a fat person, you DON'T date a fat person. Not if you are a remotely decent person. Doing so is disgusting and selfish. Instead of dealing with your irrational shame, you elect to make it someone else's problem. To make them suffer worse than you would have. Its inexcusable. This is what people are talking about when they talk about closeted FA's.

If all the girls you date are fat, you are out of the closet. Pro Tip, by the way, everyone knows you're into fatties if that's the case. Trust me. People figured it out I was an FA long before I had a chance to confide in them that fact. Because I never kept myself in the closet. I acted on my feelings. All you really need to do if that's what you're doing is be willing to confirm if anyone ever asks "So, you like fat girls or something?" You simply have to say, "yes." There you go.

Its insanely easy to be an FA. You get to be with the women you adore and so few people really care about who you date. Unlike gays for many years, you won't be beaten up for holding hands with a fat woman. You won't be denied an apartment. You won't be denied a job. Very few friends will care enough to so much as light-heartedly tease you. A lot will probably try to set you up with their fat friends. And you don't need to break out the bullhorn. No need to demand your rights. Now, I think you do owe it to your desired partners to do those things, but I don't think that's mandatory for FA's. Just ideal behavior. But if you just want to publicly date fatties, that's really enough.
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Old 01-19-2010, 10:27 PM   #72
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Well said... and I agree on the Pro tip wholeheartedly. While I think that people's experiences with family, friends and employers etc may vary more than you've experienced, I was really impressed with your observation regarding closet comparisons and how two gay people might make that choice (say if they were both living in a very hostile southern state... no offense to the southerners but I've heard from gay friends here who have moved to Portland to escape some of the southern states that it was pretty bad back home... Fat people don't have that option when dating an FA... which is reason enough, logically and emotionally, to not burden a partner with one's social shame of dating them. All in all, the decent and right thing to do is to come out of the closet before you date fat people. There's really no valid counter-argument in my opinion.
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:40 AM   #73
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Damn rep gods. Name2come, you rock....
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Old 01-22-2010, 07:30 AM   #74
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I never came out. Don't think I had to. I lost my virginity to a short chubby cute thing (yeah the same one I said I had a crush on in high school in a previous thread), and later married her friend another short chubby cute thing. I think what really throws people off is my Bi-sizual nature. A great personality, cute smile, and sweet disposition can get you a long ways with me. My current girl is a BBW but its on such a petite frame it hardly registers in my head cause she is so small next to me.
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Old 01-24-2010, 10:50 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by rainyday View Post
Liam, I am not posting to ridicule you. Your struggle is very clear and I don't discount that it really is a struggle for you. As a fat woman though, I'm posting to ask you not to date my fellow fat sisters. Until you have dealt with the obvious shame you feel about what you prefer, please be man enough to avoid exposing potential partners to you the same way you hopefully would if you knew you had a communicable disease. Even if that means you have to be celibate and unpartnered.

Your mixed feelings, your excuses, your justifications--there is a little truth in all of them and you are entitled to them. I worked in a very image-conscious industry in New York. I am not unfamiliar with the type of societal pressure you're referring to. But that is the path you chose and what you are electing to make meaningful in your life. You have the potential to do harm, and since you know you're unwilling to stand up for a fat partner, the harm you'll do will be done knowingly and with premeditation. If you are unwilling to push back against the pressures you feel, do not make your struggle the burden of someone else who deserves better and deserves not to be splattered by the self-loathing you haven't yet come to terms with.


i agree with you Rainy, but it goes so much farther than that...i ask you as my sisters and brothers in fat...how many times have you heard from a married person, i dont love/desire my partner, i wanted a fat partner and now i am trying to find one....ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh give me a break...they picked the easier route and now realize what their true desire is...nice timing, for both people.

often times our choices and our self balls for lack of another word, come with aging...no doubt in my mind that those that come to grips early are very self aware and self assured and if they have doubts, in my mind, they file them under the "i dont give a f what you think".

paths to self discovery are not the same for everyone, but think about how many damaged people there are out there, we damage each other and cause damage, on purpose or accidently...the point is, causing as little as possible and growing in the process...and finding someone to love us no matter what the issues on either side...

again, not easy.
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