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Old 12-10-2010, 11:28 PM   #26
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I haven't read the article....
Good choice. Wish I hadn't read it. I wanted to say that while I agree this woman is full of hatred she also seems to have an almost pathological fear of penises. I'm not being snarky. I'm basing this on her references to bizarre things such as pre-op transgenders waving their penises around at women's festivals (or something like that) that she talked about in her rant. I also find it telling that she makes all of these claims about transwomen and hetero and homosexual men, then states she's a lesbian separatist who is seldom around any of these people. Which speaks volumes. Maybe I am armchair psychoanalyzing too much, but I read the article and linked a few things in my mind. She hates penises, has a fear of men invading women's space, is excessively concerned that men may work rape hotlines, has lived for over 30 years as a female separatist.........I think it all makes sense now. And while I do have compassion if that's the reason for her hatred, it really doesn't justify her throwing that hatred around.

I've had two transgendered female friends. They are nothing like the way she describes them (obviously). It's pretty clear she simply is spewing hate from a place of fear and ignorance. Which is pretty common among those who hate no matter what their background/gender/politics.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:54 PM   #27
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I don't think someone who uses 'womon/womyn/wommin' automatically is a hater, and wonder why you think that? There is a lot of well-reasoned academic work out there on the power of language, and how our world shapes many prejudices in the everyday language we choose to use to describe our world. I don't use those terms myself, but don't automatically think someone is a 'man hater' or whatever because they want to work to end linguistic patriarchy in the English language.


I haven't read the article, and have no plans to, so my commentary has zero connection to how those words were used in that article.
I think it forces a division where one doesn't and shouldn't exist. Man and Woman are two halves of a whole, one cannot exist without the other in a long term, macro way. This sort of thinking seeks to divide us into subgroups that are false, imaginary constructs. At the the end of the day we are all just people, trying to get by, trying to find whatever joy we can while we're here.
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Old 12-11-2010, 03:24 PM   #28
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I think it forces a division where one doesn't and shouldn't exist. Man and Woman are two halves of a whole, one cannot exist without the other in a long term, macro way. This sort of thinking seeks to divide us into subgroups that are false, imaginary constructs. At the the end of the day we are all just people, trying to get by, trying to find whatever joy we can while we're here.
Which is why language that sets up preferences for certain types of people is language that should be questioned. Why should 'woman' include the word 'man' in it, but the word man makes no reference to women at all? As someone who finds the whole gender binary tiresome, I'm all for language that breaks down barriers, and why don't cisgendered men help that barrier by divesting themselves of some persistent socially constructed language terms that, for exmaple, tell us that the totality of knowledge of our species can be subsumed under the heading 'HIStory.'

Considering the use of 'wommon' to be hatred seems odd coming from someone who presumably doesn't insist on gender-neutral language. If you do indeed prefere words like 'ze' and 'zim,' then please forgive me, but otherwise, I find your answer to be problematic if one is looking to break down barriers, not enforce them.
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Old 12-11-2010, 04:32 PM   #29
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I just feel there are real problems in the world and trying to respell the english language to eliminate all references to men is pretty pointless. How far does this thinking go, are womin now part of the humyn race ? With hymins and mynstration and minstrual cramps? If a person really wants to make a difference, go help somebody, do something positive, tangible for someone else. This is looking for offense where there is none intended. And it still sounds the same when spoken no matter what vowel you use so I still don't quite get the point.
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Old 12-11-2010, 08:31 PM   #30
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I just feel there are real problems in the world and trying to respell the english language to eliminate all references to men is pretty pointless. How far does this thinking go, are womin now part of the humyn race ? With hymins and mynstration and minstrual cramps? If a person really wants to make a difference, go help somebody, do something positive, tangible for someone else. This is looking for offense where there is none intended. And it still sounds the same when spoken no matter what vowel you use so I still don't quite get the point.
perhaps, but as someone who lives in a world that rarely reflects my reality as a fat queer woman, I can tell you it is soul destroying at times to see how easy it is for the wider world to forget you exist, and that seems like a real problem worth working for (if not, we wouldn't have this GLBTQ Forum in a Size Acceptance community). If for some people that means working on making language more egalitarian, then more power to them. Especially since many anthropologists, linguists, and others argue convincingly that language is what we use to create the worlds we live in, and not the other way around. Using that schema, it seems like language is the best place to start to make a world more about the 'human race' and less about 'boys' and 'girls' and 'us' and 'them.'

I would think this would be more agreeable, not less, on the GLBTQ Forum here, where many of us would like to see a world where language was more accepting of our realities. Where we don't have to explain yet again why 'thats so gay!' is still a homophobic insult, for example. if you want to trivialize the influence language has on us, fine, but I disagree wholeheartedly that people who use 'womyn' are haters and engaging in trivial behavior. They may be engaging in a futile quest, but futile does not equal trivial.

plus, whos to say they aren't also working 20 hours a week at a battered womyn's shelter at the same time they are working to remove the patriarchy from the english language? i work to make the world a more tolerable place for fat people in part by doing this sort of linguistic analysis, yet I also find time to volunteer doing literacy work, so I imagine many of those womin are also out working in the world to fix it, to. Good for them for multi-tasking.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:10 PM   #31
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I believe we all could get along better if so many weren't involved in finding offense or repression under every rock. Its hard to move forward with so many minds looking back. I guess I feel like I don't need the outside world to validate my existence, I do that every day for myself by living the life I have chosen to lead. I don't need to see a fat, hairy, blue-eyed, FA on TV or read about one in a book to feel like I matter, I live it and set the course for others.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:36 PM   #32
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I believe we all could get along better if so many weren't involved in finding offense or repression under every rock. Its hard to move forward with so many minds looking back. I guess I feel like I don't need the outside world to validate my existence, I do that every day for myself by living the life I have chosen to lead. I don't need to see a fat, hairy, blue-eyed, FA on TV or read about one in a book to feel like I matter, I live it and set the course for others.
I get it, you think the world would be a better place if the women, the queers, and the rest just quit finding offense everywhere and saw the joy in the world, and found it in their hearts to let the voices of a long history of straight white cisgendered men tell their own stories. I'll put down my Virginia Woolf and her sad imitation of high modernism, then, and pick up a James Joyce novel pronto, as he'll set me straight on this silly business of thinking the world should be more inclusive, not less, of the people who live in it.
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:27 AM   #33
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I didn't say anything like that and you know it.
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:05 PM   #34
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I only get upset about the word "womyn" when it's been exclusionarily toward transpeople. I once was disinvited by a former friend(this wasn't really part of that) to Michfest; I was more offended that she thought I wanted to go to a terrible hippy jamfest filled with a bunch of elitists.

I kind of see why Brian associated this word with hate is because most of the time I've heard it used it has been used exclusionarily(not saying the word is bad, just some people have used it towards me/others with malice). I don't know his or other people's experiences with it, but that's been mine.

I find IRL that tone and intent are way more important than verbiage(to me). Online I have a hard time telling what that may be for the person, but in person I'm able to be damn sure. As long as their heart is in the right place, it's all good(to me).
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:06 AM   #35
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I didn't say anything like that and you know it.
Your attitude says it all. You don't need 'the outside world' to validate you, but as a cisgendered white man, the world pretty much already does. Even if you discount that, the way you so easily dismiss the valid views of others who have multiple minoritized identities, on a GLBTQ board, is insensitive and not empathetic at all. You have yet to address any of my sincere questions as to why any move to making the world more egalitarian, more representative of the world we live in, is somehow hateful.

Instead, you imply that to accept the status quo is more egalitarian, and those of us who seek to change the world are wasting our time 'looking back,' whatever that means. There would never be any social justice in this world at all if we followed your model, and we'd never have the world we have today that you seem to suggest is just hunky dory for minorities of all kinds.

We can keep arguing, because you keep evading my questions, and instead you belittle anyone who doesn't see the world exactly as you do. I find it sad that you continue to put down queer women on a GLBTQ Forum, and as a queer woman, I wish you wouldn't. Yes, one woman can be a hateful and misgudied person, but to lump all women who prefer to use 'womyn' into that category is lazy reading, and unfair stereotyping.
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:26 PM   #36
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I don't normally come in here, this is not my "place" and I know it. What brought me here was the outrageous statement made in the thread title. There are many things about the GLBTQ world that I don't know, but I do understand that a person can be physically one gender and emotionally/mentally another. My first posts were very supportive to that fact. I did not come in here to have this conversation with you which has little to nothing to do with the thread subject. The language I was referring to was in a comment to the posted article by a poster calling herself Aileen Wournos who stated that all men are rapists. As a non-rapist I take great umbrage to such an assertion.

Also, being born with a penis doesn't exactly give you the keys to the kingdom when you're fat, awkward, shy, and have a giant scar across your face that makes you look like a freak. I'm as much an outsider in a hyper masculine atmosphere as you would be. I don't play their game and have paid the price for it professionally many times.
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:36 AM   #37
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You are welcome to be on this board, and to post, and your support of transwomen is much appreciated. I would hope that part of the reason you felt the need to support other trans people in the first place on this board is because you are open to learning more about GLBTQ people, and if so, then my interchange with you was to show you that taking the actions or beliefs of one person, and tarring a whole group with it, was hurtful and wrong, just like the person saying all men are rapists or that transwomen are castrated men are both hurtful and wrong. That sucks, and you should be outraged by those statements. They don't represent all women who use 'womyn' terminology, or feminists, or any other category of women.

When I was an undergraduate, I took a class on representations of queerness in film and TV. I decided to do a final project on the representations of fat queer women in film and TV. Guess how many characters I could find to discuss? One, from a 60's UK film. I will admit that when you so casually dismissed my own anger at being so invisible in the larger culture, it was hurtful to me, and perhaps I shouldn't have let it get to me. I do think there is value in advocating for greater representation for all of us, no matter what our identities, and that discussion is probably better served in another thread, true.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:06 PM   #38
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I actually enjoy reading your posts, especially your thread about emotion/body disconnection as I often experience the same thing. I apologize if it sounded like I was personally condemning you as that was never my intention.
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:59 PM   #39
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I actually enjoy reading your posts, especially your thread about emotion/body disconnection as I often experience the same thing. I apologize if it sounded like I was personally condemning you as that was never my intention.
Thank you, and I apologize if I misconstrued your words. Happy Holidays to you.
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:56 PM   #40
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And to you also.
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:54 PM   #41
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Dudes and dudettes, that was so not cool. I wonder how she would feel if she was trans.
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