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Old 03-09-2015, 10:20 AM   #101
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When those are the only options you can just shoot me.
@bigmac So you're telling me that if your locked in a room; and given a gun and a stack of "romantic" porn. And you're captor tells you that you cannot leave until you either:
A. Watch all of the porn.
B. Shoot yourself in the kneecap (you get to choose which knee).

Hypothetically speaking, you would choose B? Why does the type of porn matter to you? As long as the girls is what you're attracted to, why does the story matter to you?
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Old 03-09-2015, 11:47 AM   #102
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I can agree with that. I think the word we're really looking for is responsible. it's only all or nothing for people with an addiction.

but I do think actual good porn is missing here in the US. it's supposed to be bad and tacky. it's not very creative or beautiful. when I was traveling a lot i was very shocked at exactly how god awful ours really is in comparison and how lacking they are when it comes to an interesting and helpful discussion about sex...


sex is accessible to men generally. so there is an internal conflict that develops when women are in essence are paid to go away after sex. we're not developing the types of attitudes in men and friendships among men and women that would make responsibility empathy and ethics a priority. that's not something that just appears. it has to be modeled encouraged and expected. the kinds of attitudes we are continuing to encourage developing toward women explains why even in 2015 women still don't have equal pay for equal work even though it would benefit men by taking some of the burden off them. there is too much power play and conflict between the sexes. there are other ways to relate to each other that are totally underdeveloped.
I'd have to agree with what you've stated here. It was not hard for me to decide to give up porn. All I've ever seen is the tacky/lame/degrading US stuff. It got to the point where I personally felt offended when I watched porn with a BBW and a guy. I do NOT want to spend an hour watching a guy get a blowjob. So I stopped watching porn with guys in it and would look for videos of BBW/SSBBWs going at it solo. I wanted to start a discussion on it here at dims, but didn't want to put up with any negative feedback at the time.

I really think excuses like "it won't sell" is bull. There are marketers out there that can sell you your own grandma, they can figure out how to sell a less degrading, more intimate version of porn to the public.
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Old 03-09-2015, 01:05 PM   #103
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...

Hypothetically speaking, you would choose B? Why does the type of porn matter to you? As long as the girls is what you're attracted to, why does the story matter to you?
Porn deals with our more base desires and instincts -- it has nothing to do with romance. Nothing good can result form forcing the two together.
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Old 03-09-2015, 01:30 PM   #104
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Some of us *like* being degraded in the bedroom.
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Old 03-09-2015, 05:17 PM   #105
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Porn deals with our more base desires and instincts -- it has nothing to do with romance. Nothing good can result form forcing the two together.
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Some of us *like* being degraded in the bedroom.
A good healthy relation ship involves romance, sex, and some degradation in the bedroom. Why can't they make a porn out of it? You telling me women won't eat that up? Us men like being degraded too.
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Old 03-09-2015, 05:46 PM   #106
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Anyone who thinks porn is a guide to real life relationships needs to see a therapist. Which brings us to the most salient point -- the vast majority of people can tell fantasy from reality -- those who cannot have problems far deeper than excessive consumption of porn.
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Old 03-09-2015, 05:54 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Saoirse View Post
"Some of us *like* being degraded in the bedroom."
Right. And some only want the pretense or something like a whiff of it. And even more anywhere in between.

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"Porn deals with our more base desires and instincts -- it has nothing to do with romance. Nothing good can result form forcing the two together."
But don't you see? For some people...romance, or, at the very least, some illusion or fanciful idea of it forms some basis or intergral part of such a desire or instinct.

I mean, it's like beer. There are an awful lot of people who like their beer so cold you can't even barely taste it. Then there are people who prefer a more flavorful beer.

Neither way really changes its essential quality. It's still beer. Still tastes good. Still gets you drunk and makes you pee.
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Old 03-09-2015, 09:36 PM   #108
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Porn deals with our more base desires and instincts -- it has nothing to do with romance. Nothing good can result form forcing the two together.
this is the weirdest and saddest thing I think I have ever read especially since romance is all about sex.

except not ALL sexual instincts are base even if some are. even in nature there is often courtship and even beauty. what about all of those males dancing around for female attention. that happens in traditional societies and even primitive ones. there is even monogamy etc.. but it's all ways to express our sexuality. and as a higher animal we have minds so only being base is not a necessity for us because we can have more complex desires. porn isn't speaking to those which is why on a business level demand is waning and people are creating their own personal porn. I think it bores people. humans need something more. which is why courtly behavior was even developed by knights and Samurai warriors. any of them could have taken any woman they wanted but i'm sure that got boring very quickly. what's out there is generally lacking when it comes to a whole human being. if it was created with a whole human being in mind it might not be such a huge contributing factor to ED for young healthy men who say themselves that they only finally find relief when they actually stop viewing it altogether and take the time to experience actual sex and being human. because honestly jacking off to a video is a cheap comparison.
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Old 03-09-2015, 10:02 PM   #109
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let's do talk about business. a lot of the people do believe all of the puffed up junk that pornographers spread around to impress investors but it is no more true than it ever was. it's interesting that none of the porn people ever end up on anyone's high performers list in forbes or ANY of the other serious financial publications. no one thinks of it as a serious investment. the kind of porn they create is not as important as they pretend which is why you see most of the owners struggling and posing. evidently erections aren't the only thing getting fluffed.


http://www.forbes.com/2001/05/25/0524porn.html
Dan Ackman

How Big Is Porn?

Recently, much attention has been lavished on the pornography industry–as a business–and many have claimed it is large and profitable, especially on the Internet. Many of the claims are cut from whole cloth, but are accepted without question by the legitimate press.
Skepticism is in order, though, because as David Klatell, associate dean of the Columbia Graduate School of Journalism notes, “[Pornography] is an industry where they exaggerate the size of everything.” The fact is pornography, or “adult entertainment,” is as marginal now as it ever was.
Take for instance the New York Times Magazine: It ran a cover story on May 18 called “Naked Capitalists: There’s No Business Like Porn Business.” Its thesis: Pornography is big business–with $10 billion to $14 billion in annual sales. The author, Frank Rich Frank Rich , suggests that pornography is bigger than any of the major league sports, perhaps bigger than Hollywood. Porn is “no longer a sideshow to the mainstream…it is the mainstream,” he says.

The idea that pornography is a $10 billion business is often credited to a study by Forrester Research . This figure gets repeated over and over. The only problem is that there is no such study. In 1998, Forrester did publish a report on the online “adult content” industry, which it pegged at $750 million to $1 billion in annual revenue. The $10 billion aggregate figure was unsourced and mentioned in passing.
For the $10 billion figure to be accurate, you have to add in adult video networks and pay-per-view movies on cable and satellite, Web sites, in-room hotel movies, phone sex, sex toys and magazines–and still you can’t get there.

According to Adult Video News (AVN), an industry trade magazine, Americans spent just over $4 billion to buy and rent adult videos last year. This figure is baseless and wildly inflated. From there, the numbers get even more obscure.
Tossing in the Internet will add less than $1 billion to the total porn pie. The 1998 Forrester report pegs the online adult content market at $750 million to $1 billion, which was an increase from its initial estimate of $150 million. When a study admits that its initial result was off by at least 80%, it’s hard to be confident in the new result. In any event, Tom Rhinelander, a Forrester research director, says they have given up trying to put a price on porn–either on the Internet or otherwise.

Its rival research outfit, Net Ratings , tracks the number of visitors to porn Web sites. It says that in April 2001, there were 22.9 million unique visitors to porn sites. This says nothing about how long each visitor stayed or whether they spent a dime. In any event, the number of visitors is less than the number who visited news sites (41.1 million), finance sites (34.2 million) or greeting card sites (25.5 million). When was the last time you heard anyone talk about how greeting card sites dominate the Net?

The Business Of Smut: What Is It Worth? Sources: Adams Media Research, Forrester Research, Veronis Suhler Communications Industry Report, IVD Adult Video $500 million to $1.8 billion Internet $1 billion Pay-Per-View $128 million Magazines $1 billion Total$2.6 billion to $3.9 billion It is often said that pornographers are the only ones making money on the Internet. Certainly, there are a lot of porn sites and many assume that they wouldn’t be there if they weren’t profitable. But that assumption is baseless.

Playboy , which calls itself a men’s magazine rather than an adult magazine, lost money last year, as did New Frontier Media . There are thousands of e-commerce sites that still exist despite never having made a profit. There are millions of personal sites and fan sites whose publishers have no intention of ever profiting. Why are porn sites, of which there are an untold number competing fiercely with each other, necessarily any different?
What about pay-per-view? The entire legitimate “a la carte” movie business, including satellite and cable pay-per-view, was just $642 million last year, says Tom Adams, president of Adams Media Research, which tracks video sales for the industry. If sex movies get 20% of the legitimate movies, that adds $128 million to pornography’s gross.

Adding pay-per-view to the Internet and video sales and rentals, the sum total is about $2.9 billion. Is it possible that adult magazines add another $7 billion–which would have to come in sales since they have minimal advertising? Hardly, when you consider that the entire consumer magazine market in 1999 grossed $7.8 billion (sales plus advertising), according to the Veronis Suhler Communications Industry Report.
The Times Magazine concludes there may be no other product in the entire cultural marketplace that is more explicitly American, going so far as to call it “mainstream.” We have no idea how “explicitly American” it is, though we suspect men in other countries like to look at naked women, too.
What pornography lacks is cultural resonance, it also lacks in financial clout. The industry is tiny next to broadcast television ($32.3 billion in 1999 revenue, according to Veronis Suhler), cable television ($45.5 billion), the newspaper business ($27.5 billion), Hollywood ($31 billion), even to professional and educational publishing ($14.8 billion).
When one really examines the numbers, the porn industry–while a subject of fascination–is every bit as marginal as it seems at first glance.
How Grown Up Is Adult Video?

How Grown Up Is Adult Video?

Does the adult video market have $4 billion in sales? Not even half that.
This figure comes from Adult Video News, an industry trade paper–not from Variety, the Hollywood trade paper, which Rich cites. How Adult Video News gets this number is not clear. We asked Adult Video News‘ managing editor, Mike Ramone Mike Ramone . “I don’t know the exact methodology,” he said, “It’s a pie chart.” Asked to break the figure down into sales versus rentals, a standard practice among those who cover the video industry, he said he didn’t think it was available and suggested we call the editor-in-chief, who didn’t return our calls.
In fact, there is no chance that the adult video business has revenues of even $2 billion. This hardly compares to the sales and rentals of legitimate videos, which were roughly $20 billion last year, both according to Adams Media Research and Variety. (Neither Adams nor Variety track porn sales.)
No one tracks the adult video business with any rigor or precision, Adams says. But his “most generous” estimate is that sales and rentals combined are no higher than $1.8 billion. Adams starts with the mainstream video business, which he says had rental income of $10.3 billion and sales of $10.8 billion (both of which far exceed box office grosses, which amounted to $7.67 billion last year, according go the National Association of Theater Owners).
On the rental side, at least half the video stores nationally, including industry leaders Blockbuster and Hollywood Video , carry no porn titles. Of the 50% (at most) of the stores that do, retailer surveys report that no more than 20% of revenue is from porn. Thus, porn rentals amount to no more than $1 billion.

As for video sales, much of the trade is through outlets like Wal-Mart Stores and Kmart , who stock no porn titles. There are, of course, the traditional adult video and bookstores mostly in big cities, but this is a fringe distribution channel at best. Internet and mail order may add to the total, but these channels account for just 10% of legitimate sales. Overall, “There’s no way it could be 10% of the legitimate market,” Adams says. His top estimate for adult video sales is $800 million.

Adams calls his $1.8 billion aggregate generous. Some of the industry’s own numbers suggest a much lower figure. IVD , based in Hightstown, N.J., the nation’s largest distributor, said that there are as many as 13,000 video releases per year. (There are many niche markets–boy-boy, fat people, transvestites, freak shows–which add to the total, according to an IVD spokesman.)
A typical release may sell 1,000 to 2,000 units. Using the high-end figure, the industry sells about 26 million units. If the average unit sells either directly or through rentals for $20–a high-end estimate given the fact that the number of titles makes the product a commodity–that means the adult video business grosses at best $520 million, not $4 billion.

All told, the adult video business takes in anywhere from one-tenth to one-half the figure proffered by Adult Video News. Certainly, self-interested statements by pornographers merit a second look.
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Old 03-09-2015, 11:33 PM   #110
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if porn is so business and profit oriented then why are there people still doing it who can't make their ends meet and are on food stamps and public assistance ? why are there porn sites that have to ask for donations ? not all of porn is profit motivated. it's even claimed that this site with
it's porn ad links that pay when you click em barely covers expenses.
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Old 03-09-2015, 11:44 PM   #111
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if porn is so business and profit oriented then why are there people still doing it who can't make their ends meet and are on food stamps and public assistance ? why are there porn sites that have to ask for donations ? not all of porn if profit motivated. it's even claimed that this site with
it's porn ad links that pay when you click em barely covers expenses.
I've exited this discussion because quite frankly I think it's anti-sex worker and I'm not into that (for obvious reasons)

... I just want to point out that this statement (that I quoted) above is pretty silly. MOST people in MOST industries are not at the top of the corporate ladder. And porn, like all industries, has people in it who earn less than others.

This is like asking WHY mcdonalds says they're a profit motivated company when most of their employees are making minimum wage and have to have a second job to make ends meet.

... it just has nothing to do with what we're talking about at all (or what the original post was about) and you've just gone on this tangent trying to demonize pornography and sex work in any way possible.
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Old 03-09-2015, 11:56 PM   #112
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people who view porn are not necessarily more open mind or enlightened. it could be argued that it actually seems to be more for conservative and conflicted people who can't bring themselves to live their sexuality out loud like conservatives. they also tend to be anti - female. porn makers know that and they pattern them to their tastes. it could also be said that porn is a aid to closeted behavior and not any kind of true sexual liberation:

Porn in the USA: Conservatives are biggest consumers
Americans may paint themselves in increasingly bright shades of red and blue, but new research finds one thing that varies little across the nation: the liking for online pornography.
A new nationwide study (pdf) of anonymised credit-card receipts from a major online adult entertainment provider finds little variation in consumption between states.
"When it comes to adult entertainment, it seems people are more the same than different," says Benjamin Edelman at Harvard Business School.
However, there are some trends to be seen in the data. Those states that do consume the most porn tend to be more conservative and religious than states with lower levels of consumption, the study finds.

Some of the people who are most outraged turn out to be consumers of the very things they claimed to be outraged by," Edelman says.

Political divide

Edelman spends part of his time helping companies such as Microsoft and AOL detect advertising fraud. Another consulting client runs dozens of adult websites, though he says he is not at liberty to identify the firm.
That company did, however, provide Edelman with roughly two years of credit card data from 2006 to 2008 that included a purchase date and each customer's postal code.
After controlling for differences in broadband internet access between states – online porn tends to be a bandwidth hog – and adjusting for population, he found a relatively small difference between states with the most adult purchases and those with the fewest.
The biggest consumer, Utah, averaged 5.47 adult content subscriptions per 1000 home broadband users; Montana bought the least with 1.92 per 1000. "The differences here are not so stark," Edelman says.
Number 10 on the list was West Virginia at 2.94 subscriptions per 1000, while number 41, Michigan, averaged 2.32.
Eight of the top 10 pornography consuming states gave their electoral votes to John McCain in last year's presidential election – Florida and Hawaii were the exceptions. While six out of the lowest 10 favoured Barack Obama.
Old-fashioned values

Church-goers bought less online porn on Sundays – a 1% increase in a postal code's religious attendance was associated with a 0.1% drop in subscriptions that day. However, expenditures on other days of the week brought them in line with the rest of the country, Edelman finds.
Residents of 27 states that passed laws banning gay marriages boasted 11% more porn subscribers than states that don't explicitly restrict gay marriage.
To get a better handle on other associations between social attitudes and pornography consumption, Edelman melded his data with a previous study on public attitudes toward religion.
States where a majority of residents agreed with the statement "I have old-fashioned values about family and marriage," bought 3.6 more subscriptions per thousand people than states where a majority disagreed. A similar difference emerged for the statement "AIDS might be God's punishment for immoral sexual behaviour."
"One natural hypothesis is something like repression: if you're told you can't have this, then you want it more," Edelman says.
Journal reference: Journal of Economic Perspectives vol 23, p 209 (pdf)
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Old 03-10-2015, 12:15 AM   #113
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I've exited this discussion because quite frankly I think it's anti-sex worker and I'm not into that (for obvious reasons)

... I just want to point out that this statement (that I quoted) above is pretty silly. MOST people in MOST industries are not at the top of the corporate ladder. And porn, like all industries, has people in it who earn less than others.

This is like asking WHY mcdonalds says they're a profit motivated company when most of their employees are making minimum wage and have to have a second job to make ends meet.

... it just has nothing to do with what we're talking about at all (or what the original post was about) and you've just gone on this tangent trying to demonize pornography and sex work in any way possible.
it does. people brought money business and profit into the picture and what actual people make is a part of it because the hype is they are well paid so it's profitable for them. the truth is the ones who are average size make pretty much what average people make and in the fat community they make even less-- not even a living wage. so for the most part they have another job a spouse who supports them or they're on public assistance and disability. even average sized people make what most working stiffs make anyway. it's not a put down or anti anything. it's just the truth.

the difference is McDonald's makes no pretense about what it's workers are paid and neither do the workers. but the porn industry paints a fake rosie picture and only points to the very few high earners when it comes to adult actors who are anomalies and not common at all. they do that to attract the na´ve. at least people at McDonald's let you know that as a whole they aren't paid a living wage. they don't point to some high ranking V.P. or something and try to pretend they make as much as he does.

so it's important when we talk about what is good business or bad business we are forthright and not creating a pretense. when there are people who aren't profiting on all levels their business sense is doubtful anyway,

BTW McDonald's sales are falling too

how can it be an attack on sex workers when it is acknowledged that they aren't paid their due, or that people need to be careful not to support trafficking? I would think a conscious consumer would be more likely to be supportive of good pay and safe and legal conditions for the people who choose it as a kind of work. only the people who benefit from exploiting sex workers would think that wasn't a good thing.
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:58 AM   #114
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I honestly do not know what porn industry you're looking to that paints a fake rosie picture of how much people earn, but AS SOMEONE IN THE INDUSTRY, I can tell you I have always known what I could (and couldn't) earn. And, in fact I don't think anyone has ever tried to pretend like I could make more than i have.

On top of that, you act like sex workers are different from other entertainers (ie- actors, singers, musicians, models, comedians), and they're not. There's a WIDE spectrum of wages that can be earned as an entertainer and most of us are well aware of that, just as any artist is. And this is what I mean by "demonizing pornography and sex workers". You find things that would be 100% acceptable, perhaps even encouraged, in other professions and point to it as a sign that people within our industry are all victims and need to be saved. That pornography is evil for doing this to us. But would you say the same thing about any other area of entertainment???

I won't be contributing to this discussion anymore, as I think you're just enjoying talking to yourself at this point. Good luck with that conversation.
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Old 03-10-2015, 09:56 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by BigCutieClementine View Post
I honestly do not know what porn industry you're looking to that paints a fake rosie picture of how much people earn, but AS SOMEONE IN THE INDUSTRY, I can tell you I have always known what I could (and couldn't) earn. And, in fact I don't think anyone has ever tried to pretend like I could make more than i have.

On top of that, you act like sex workers are different from other entertainers (ie- actors, singers, musicians, models, comedians), and they're not. There's a WIDE spectrum of wages that can be earned as an entertainer and most of us are well aware of that, just as any artist is. And this is what I mean by "demonizing pornography and sex workers". You find things that would be 100% acceptable, perhaps even encouraged, in other professions and point to it as a sign that people within our industry are all victims and need to be saved. That pornography is evil for doing this to us. But would you say the same thing about any other area of entertainment???

I won't be contributing to this discussion anymore, as I think you're just enjoying talking to yourself at this point. Good luck with that conversation.
actually there is quite a nice conversation going . thank you for your contribution. the door is always open. but when discussing things don't always get so mad and take things so personally. I think you have an experience to bring to the table being a web model but that is far from the experience of the industry as a whole. actually research of more than one person or a small group of people is not going to tell more of the whole story.

I don't want to be rude but truthfully I wouldn't expect you to say anything more than you have. it's the party line. all of the moral outrage over sexual freedom. but there is no sexual freedom when one position suddenly becomes unquestionable. I don't even blame you for it. it's just what is done.

the reason sex workers are not the same as Hollywood actors and actresses is because they aren't. the talent level isn't there. nobody is pretending anybody is a good actor. nobody goes to yale or the royal shakespeare academy to learn how to act out porn. the stories are virtually non existent if not laughable. isn't it a bit fake to pretend what is going on in the american porn industry is somehow like film or high art? everyone feels the stories acting, or what is called acting if there is even an attempt is mostly unpurposefully comedic -- which is exactly part of the point some of us have been making.

let's not pretend. if talent were a real issue a lot of people involved now would have no place there at all. if what a lot of people are interested in -- maybe some decent acting and scripts and a few actually thoughtful story lines maybe sex workers might get more respect. and maybe they wouldn't start turning some people off after a while. but they keep shooting themselves in the foot by taking up the industry argument based on companies who want to do everything on the cheap and then make small profits because they could care less about any kind of artistry whatsoever. you get what you pay for. so they don't want to pay for decent writing acting music or cinematography and the people involved don't get the respect either. it's not that complicated. crouching on stinky looking sofas in cheap hotel rooms is not really art.
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:31 PM   #116
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....if talent were a real issue a lot of people involved now would have no place there at all....
You could make a similar argument about a substantial part of Hollywood.
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:56 PM   #117
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You could make a similar argument about a substantial part of Hollywood.
Or this thread since it is starting to resemble an obsession of sorts
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Old 03-11-2015, 10:03 PM   #118
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You could make a similar argument about a substantial part of Hollywood.

that's very true but not virtually ALL of it though. I don't think there IS any Oscar or Golden Globe level porn. not only that there aren't hardly any if any attempts at it. it would be very exciting and interesting if there were. movies like Belle Du Jour, Diary of a Nymphomaniac, The Story of O, Emmanuel, Kama Sutra, Secretary, Boxing Helena, Stealing Beauty or Last Tango in Paris come close. movies like that with fat characters could really blow people's minds. they would probably generate a lot of talk AND a lot of money.
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Old 03-13-2015, 02:27 PM   #119
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...

I don't want to be rude but truthfully I wouldn't expect you to say anything more than you have. it's the party line. all of the moral outrage over sexual freedom. but there is no sexual freedom when one position suddenly becomes unquestionable. I don't even blame you for it. it's just what is done.

the reason sex workers are not the same as Hollywood actors and actresses is because they aren't. the talent level isn't there. nobody is pretending anybody is a good actor. nobody goes to yale or the royal shakespeare academy to learn how to act out porn. the stories are virtually non existent if not laughable. isn't it a bit fake to pretend what is going on in the american porn industry is somehow like film or high art? everyone feels the stories acting, or what is called acting if there is even an attempt is mostly unpurposefully comedic -- which is exactly part of the point some of us have been making.

let's not pretend. if talent were a real issue a lot of people involved now would have no place there at all. if what a lot of people are interested in -- maybe some decent acting and scripts and a few actually thoughtful story lines maybe sex workers might get more respect. ...
In other words I enjoy looking down on you sleazy immoral sluts from my self-appointed position of cultural arbiter.
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Old 03-13-2015, 02:45 PM   #120
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In other words I enjoy looking down on you sleazy immoral sluts from my self-appointed position of cultural arbiter.
Thank you for that, Mac <3
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Old 03-13-2015, 10:05 PM   #121
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In other words I enjoy looking down on you sleazy immoral sluts from my self-appointed position of cultural arbiter.


there is nothing sleazy or immoral about what porn actors or actresses do but it isn't an art and it isn't at all the same as what other actors and actresses do by a long shot. it's a really a sad joke on themselves if anyone thinks anybody believes that. their denial is complete.

you said yourself that the industry isn't about that (acting/artistry) and if it was you wouldn't watch it because all you or most men are supposed to be about is getting off and artistry doesn't matter to you on the least. if that is true I don't think it's possible to even pretend that you are looking at any kind of artistry anywhere near what actors and actresses are after. why don't you make up your mind?
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