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Old 03-03-2017, 05:37 PM   #1
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Default How/Why am I Expected to Hold it in?

I was just looking online for other FA-centric venues, and came across a piece about dating fat girls, which specifically says; step 1; don't mention her weight.

This is not news. I've seen many other people online talking about how they feel uncomfortable when people talk about their weight, or it kills the mood, or it's not romantic, or whatnot, and I'm sorry, but... How can anyone live like that? How can you legitimately spend time talking to a person you find attractive, and *intend* to be romantic, without expressing any of the romantic feelings that you have? Isn't that a bit like going to the beach, then just kind of hanging out by the snack bar and leaving? It's it like going to the Grand Canyon, just to study the geological formation of one rock that you found there? Isn't it like going to a nature trail, just to read the sign at the entrance?

We go to these places because they're beautiful, and we get to immerse ourselves in that beauty and be inspired by it. We don't go there to ignore their beauty and sit in a corner.

I don't want to sit down and shut up! I want to laugh, cry, write poems, sonnets, tales of greatness and wonder, whenever blessed beauty strikes my eye! I want to express each incredible sensation of childlike wonder, volatile passion and painful loss that floods my immortal soul! Why, there are days when I almost feel like I could live my life without beauty, if only I could share what I do experience with one other person; wholly and completely!

I know the methods I've been using to repress my emotions in the past. It's how I can do my job without exploding. However, I don't know how other people manage it. What cork could possibly be strong enough to keep this genie imprisoned? In order to be acceptable, am I expected to change the one thing I can't change? Am I expected to express feelings other than my own, in order to be liked? How could I? Why would such a thing be expected? Why would anyone expect that? I've never asked anyone to lie to me about how they feel.

Some days, the feelings are so strong, that I simply have to let them out, and I don't see how I could live my life like Henry Bemis, with only the companionship of wholly unsympathetic and critical ears whenever my real emotions surfaced.

Am I just getting the wrong impression? Is the internet just cherry-picking opinion pieces for me to dislike, or is there some secret method of control and repression that I haven't discovered?
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:04 PM   #2
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For one you need to realize the world doesn't revolve around you.
Maybe the girl you are dating isn't happy being fat did you ever think about that?
No would be my guess because you have a fat fetish.
Its OK to prefer fat women but women like to know you like them for who they are not just their size.
Here is an example say you had a huge wart on your nose that you hated but a girl you were dating loved your wart and that was all she talked about.
You would get tired of it pretty quickly I'm sure and you would feel like she just loves you for your huge wart and not for who you are. Get it?
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:28 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Tracii View Post
Maybe the girl you are dating isn't happy being fat did you ever think about that?
Well, I don't see how this is going to be overcome if the topic isn't broached or broachable.

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Originally Posted by Tracii View Post
Its OK to prefer fat women but women like to know you like them for who they are not just their size.
A person is a rational animal, consisting of a union between soul and body. This excessive fixation on the purely non-physical half of ourselves doesn't feel a bit one-sided to you?

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Here is an example say you had a huge wart on your nose that you hated but a girl you were dating loved your wart and that was all she talked about.
You would get tired of it pretty quickly I'm sure and you would feel like she just loves you for your huge wart and not for who you are. Get it?
No. I don't get it. In that case, I could either learn to like more things about myself, or just have an honest talk with her, and if I can't live with the wart thing, I could just tell her that. It seems like the whole problem could be handled quite effectively and quickly, so long as both people were willing to work at it.

Plus, with the wart thing, you can always have it removed if you don't like it.

Also, I think there may be a hint of "false alternatives" to this last reply. Just because I can't live my life without expressing these extremely-strong emotions, doesn't mean I never talk about anything else. A good 90+% of the things I talk about are unrelated to that, though none of them are mundane.
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Tracii View Post
For one you need to realize the world doesn't revolve around you.
Maybe the girl you are dating isn't happy being fat did you ever think about that?
No would be my guess because you have a fat fetish.
Its OK to prefer fat women but women like to know you like them for who they are not just their size.
Here is an example say you had a huge wart on your nose that you hated but a girl you were dating loved your wart and that was all she talked about.
You would get tired of it pretty quickly I'm sure and you would feel like she just loves you for your huge wart and not for who you are. Get it?
I believe that you should love the person, not their fat.

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Old 03-03-2017, 06:33 PM   #5
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I believe that you should love the person, not their fat.

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Me too. However, love is a voluntary decision, and I was talking about emotions.
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:40 PM   #6
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Me too. However, love is a voluntary decision, and I was talking about emotions.
I believe that 'love' is a connection felt rather than a decision made.

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Old 03-03-2017, 06:42 PM   #7
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I believe that 'love' is connection felt rather than a decision made.

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Then it's not possible for there to be a "should" with regard to that kind of love. "Should" implies "can," and human beings have no control whatsoever over what their feelings are. They only get to express them, or repress them.
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Old 03-03-2017, 08:38 PM   #8
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I was just looking online for other FA-centric venues, and came across a piece about dating fat girls, which specifically says; step 1; don't mention her weight.
I think this is pretty good advice. At least at the start. If you are getting to know someone you really don't need to fixate on weight. For many women (and this is not limited to overweight women) weight is such a personal subject that if you go and blurt it out in the early stages of a relationship be prepared for her to cocoon. I learned this the hard way a few times in my early clumsy days as an FA. Thing is, you can express your appreciation for a woman's appearance easily enough without breeching this area and she'll figure out soon enough you like what you like. There are so many ways to do it without putting her on the defensive or making her suspicious.

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I believe that you should love the person, not their fat.
I made a very similar statement to OP a couple weeks ago in response to how I was able to adjust my preferences when my wife loses weight.

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No. I don't get it. In that case, I could either learn to like more things about myself, or just have an honest talk with her, and if I can't live with the wart thing, I could just tell her that. It seems like the whole problem could be handled quite effectively and quickly, so long as both people were willing to work at it.
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Then it's not possible for there to be a "should" with regard to that kind of love. "Should" implies "can," and human beings have no control whatsoever over what their feelings are. They only get to express them, or repress them.
You've contradicted yourself here. Either you can learn to like something and we DO have control over feelings or we have no control. Personally I believe we do have control, and those who exercise that control generally are far more able to adjust to society and the realities around them. People may have less ability to control their initial reaction to something, but we do possess the ability to think critically and change the way we see something. In answer to your initial question you have a certain feeling, a preference or attraction for "fat" but when you really get into it and think about SOMEONE ELSE you may conclude going straight there may alienate her and therefore change not the way you feel about your preference but the way you feel about expressing it.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:07 PM   #9
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This is one reason I hate to respond to posts like this because all the OP wants to do is argue semantics.
Some have this "lofty" high brow attitude and fail to see that other people don't think the way they do and they have a hard time excepting it.
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Old 03-04-2017, 03:54 AM   #10
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I think this is pretty good advice. At least at the start. If you are getting to know someone you really don't need to fixate on weight. For many women (and this is not limited to overweight women) weight is such a personal subject that if you go and blurt it out in the early stages of a relationship be prepared for her to cocoon. I learned this the hard way a few times in my early clumsy days as an FA. Thing is, you can express your appreciation for a woman's appearance easily enough without breeching this area and she'll figure out soon enough you like what you like. There are so many ways to do it without putting her on the defensive or making her suspicious.
This is why I included the word "how" in the topic title. I don't understand how it's possible to tone down the feelings sufficiently to avoid scaring people.

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I made a very similar statement to OP a couple weeks ago in response to how I was able to adjust my preferences when my wife loses weight.
I remember that. The conclusion of the discussion was that we're different in this regard.

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You've contradicted yourself here. Either you can learn to like something and we DO have control over feelings or we have no control.
Good point. I suppose I assumed people could learn to like new aspects of themselves because I've never disliked any aspect of myself. It was unfair of me to expect others to feel the same way.

That said, this just makes it all the more important for people to be open with each other, so that they can head off these problems right away, and if there's a deep incompatibility like this one, move on.

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Personally I believe we do have control, and those who exercise that control generally are far more able to adjust to society and the realities around them.
We discussed this already. Just because you feel that you're able to do this, doesn't mean the same is true of everyone.

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People may have less ability to control their initial reaction to something, but we do possess the ability to think critically and change the way we see something.
Oh, no question! However, this has absolutely no effect on how we feel, emotionally.

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In answer to your initial question you have a certain feeling, a preference or attraction for "fat" but when you really get into it and think about SOMEONE ELSE...
Actually, I'm glad you brought this up, because I've been thinking all night about how I didn't sufficiently address this in Tracii's first reply.

When I say "I" or "me" in the opening post, I should have written "I and those like me." This isn't just about me. No problem is unique.

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...you may conclude going straight there may alienate her...
Why would that concern me? No one's even gone to the trouble of trying to avoid alienating me, and I put up with it every day, from every angle, in every discussion and every piece of media I observe.

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and therefore change not the way you feel about your preference but the way you feel about expressing it.
This point, I have not conceded. If Shakespeare, Byron and Cummings are permitted to make and share beautiful works in praise of the kinds of beauty that they can appreciate, I see no reason why I can't do the same.

I've been dancing around this issue since I got here, but I really think it's the most important issue of all to resolve with regard to this topic. I've heard people say they want fat people to be treated like everyone else, but half the time, I get conflicting messages about this. It's like, on the one hand, people want fatness normalized, and on the other hand, they want the license to continue condemning those who don't feel ashamed of it.

I didn't come here to help rearrange the seats at the popular kids' table. I've never been at that table, and I've never wanted to be, because that's where people sit, who look down on the geeks and other unpopular folks. I don't think we should look down on anyone. We should look with admiration on those who do great work, and on people who commit crimes, we should have the mercy to help them overcome their evil, and to teach them what they need to know. When we can find loveliness in the world, we should draw strength and inspiration from it, and when we can't, we should move on, and let others see the loveliness that we can't see.

I belong to at least five groups that it's still considered acceptable to discriminate against in society, and that's why, even though I sometimes feel disgusted with people, I always try to treat them well. Are we really ready to accept legitimate differences as normal, or does our sentimental revulsion come first?
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Old 03-04-2017, 04:00 AM   #11
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This is one reason I hate to respond to posts like this because all the OP wants to do is argue semantics.
Some have this "lofty" high brow attitude and fail to see that other people don't think the way they do and they have a hard time excepting it.
Well, that's why I posted this topic. Help me understand this strange perspective of not accepting it, so that I can deal with it. Help me learn to identify the early signs of this predisposition against my feelings, whether or not it can be circumvented, and/or learn to avoid it entirely. To me, it seems like just another of the many strange prejudices that have contributed to a 34-year run of near-constant alienation by my peers, and although I'm more or less happy now, I'd like to know how others cope with this. How are we expected to deal with the fact that the world (and nearly everyone in it) just wants us to go away? Surely, if anyone can answer that question...
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Old 03-04-2017, 05:39 AM   #12
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We discussed this already. Just because you feel that you're able to do this, doesn't mean the same is true of everyone.
I think it's important to review what I said here. The bolded part is what prompted your reply:

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Either you can learn to like something and we DO have control over feelings or we have no control. Personally I believe we do have control, and those who exercise that control generally are far more able to adjust to society and the realities around them.
Basically what I am saying here is we have the ability to exercise self control. I believe we all have this ability to some extent. You reply is going to miss the mark because it comments on my belief in self control (i.e. "...you feel you are able to..." and the idea that not it does not apply to everyone. But whether or not someone "feels they are able to" exercise self control, in this case over their emotions, society expects it of them. And it's really not an unreasonable expectation when you consider respect for others is the driving engine behind this expectation.

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Oh, no question! However, this has absolutely no effect on how we feel, emotionally.
But it can and does. Emotional reaction may be a knee-jerk instinct but self control and rational thought step in and hopefully take control before decision time. Never make a decision (i.e. a decision to discuss a woman's weight) based on an emotional high or low. And I do think people have the ability to control emotional reaction, too. As a child did you ever spill a glass of water and react by breaking down and crying? My kids did. Now they don't. They've learned to control that emotional reaction and instead of crying about it they get a towel and clean it up. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near an adult who believes emotional reactions cannot be controlled because I'd expect a childish reaction to every little thing that didn't go his way. That's ridiculously unbecoming, but it's a logical endpoint to what you're suggesting.




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When I say "I" or "me" in the opening post, I should have written "I and those like me." This isn't just about me. No problem is unique.
I get that, but everything we say to you applies across the board. Respecting others, self control, emotional maturity, the ability to control emotions in the interest of not hurting someone else...these are things that are good for others, not just you.

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Why would that concern me? No one's even gone to the trouble of trying to avoid alienating me, and I put up with it every day, from every angle, in every discussion and every piece of media I observe.
Speaking of emotional maturity, or a lack thereof...

I thought you wanted to express an appreciation for something, not alienate someone. If you are not worried about alienating someone as you express your appreciation for it then I'd suggest that's indicative of a deeper character flaw. I don't think you're a bad person though, so I hope you'll rethink this part of your response as you move through life.

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This point, I have not conceded. If Shakespeare, Byron and Cummings are permitted to make and share beautiful works in praise of the kinds of beauty that they can appreciate, I see no reason why I can't do the same.
Then take up writing or art. That's actually a better venue for your expression anyway because it's not directed at any one person. Write about how much you like something about a certain type of woman and post it somewhere people will read it. If you can paint or sketch, do that. Plenty of people post that kind of stuff right here on Dims and I'm sure you'd find an eager audience for it.

That's a little different from going straight there with someone you're trying to meet, and I believe that was the context of your original question when you started the thread.
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Old 03-04-2017, 06:13 AM   #13
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But whether or not someone "feels they are able to" exercise self control, in this case over their emotions, society expects it of them.
Society expects a lot of things that aren't reasonable. Self control isn't one of them, but emotional control, outside of repression, would be, and yes, I phrased my reply that way because I still don't fully believe that you really have the ability to mold your emotions as you claim. I think there's some other explanation, but I don't know you well enough to determine what that is.

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And it's really not an unreasonable expectation when you consider respect for others is the driving engine behind this expectation.
I have tremendous respect for others... just not for their tendency to let their emotional revulsion get in the way.

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But it can and does. Emotional reaction may be a knee-jerk instinct but self control and rational thought step in and hopefully take control before decision time.
Control? In the sense that they influence the decision, yes, but the emotions are still there, and even stronger for not having been expressed.

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And I do think people have the ability to control emotional reaction, too. As a child did you ever spill a glass of water and react by breaking down and crying? My kids did. Now they don't.
I don't think this has to do with emotional control. I think most people just become desensitized to shocks like that.

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I get that, but everything we say to you applies across the board. Respecting others, self control, emotional maturity, the ability to control emotions in the interest of not hurting someone else...these are things that are good for others, not just you.
They're not good for me at all, because people don't practice them when I'm around. Oh, these behaviors might be good for me to practice, (the jury's still out on that. I've been hurting more and more emotionally the longer I practice them, but that too could have benefits,) but I don't get to reap the benefits of others' respect to avoid hurting others, because others rarely seek to avoid hurting me.

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I thought you wanted to express an appreciation for something, not alienate someone.
It's not my goal to alienate anyone. My goal is to find a venue to express this thing that's about to burst out of my chest like a chest-buster alien. I'm sick of being told I can't. If someone is alienated because they're not especially interested in what I have to say, then fine. I deal with that all the time. It's no big deal. If they're repulsed, or hurt because they feel alienated, then maybe they put too much stock in everyone being just like them, or maybe we should have some method of warning people about what hurts us as individuals, so that we can divide up into groups of people who can tolerate each other.

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If you are not worried about alienating someone as you express your appreciation for it then I'd suggest that's indicative of a deeper character flaw.
Character flaws are related to ethics, not aesthetics. Is it somehow unethical to crave fairness?

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Then take up writing or art.
Always.

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Plenty of people post that kind of stuff right here on Dims and I'm sure you'd find an eager audience for it.
You might be right.

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That's a little different from going straight there with someone you're trying to meet, and I believe that was the context of your original question when you started the thread.
Straight there? Certainly not. These are all "third date" topics, at the earliest. Still, it's important to get them settled early, or nothing further can be accomplished.
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Old 03-04-2017, 08:45 AM   #14
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Society expects a lot of things that aren't reasonable. Self control isn't one of them, but emotional control, outside of repression, would be, and yes, I phrased my reply that way because I still don't fully believe that you really have the ability to mold your emotions as you claim. I think there's some other explanation, but I don't know you well enough to determine what that is.
Are you using a general "you" or do you think I personally don't have the ability to mold my emotions the way I claim?

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
It's not my goal to alienate anyone. My goal is to find a venue to express this thing that's about to burst out of my chest like a chest-buster alien. I'm sick of being told I can't. If someone is alienated because they're not especially interested in what I have to say, then fine. I deal with that all the time. It's no big deal. If they're repulsed, or hurt because they feel alienated, then maybe they put too much stock in everyone being just like them, or maybe we should have some method of warning people about what hurts us as individuals, so that we can divide up into groups of people who can tolerate each other.
What you admire is something they may not like about themselves. Women want men who are attracted to them as a person. One thing I experienced in my years dating bigger women is many of them have had an encounter or two with guys who have a fat fetish and no woman wants to be the object of a guy's fetish. It's not about them "putting too much stock" into everyone being like them. It's about wanting to be wanted for who they are and treated like a normal woman. Drawing attention to her fatness, no matter how well meaning you may be, often has the opposite effect.


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Character flaws are related to ethics, not aesthetics. Is it somehow unethical to crave fairness?
The response you gave in the context you gave it could be easily interpreted that you want to express your emotions even if it makes the person to whom you express them uneasy. That's a lack of tact and if you do it knowing it makes the other person uneasy or outright hurts them, I'd say it's definitely a character flaw.

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Straight there? Certainly not. These are all "third date" topics, at the earliest. Still, it's important to get them settled early, or nothing further can be accomplished.
Third date? That's amusing. Try 7th or 8th year of being married. That's the kind of credibility you need to really be able to have these kinds of conversations without risking an embarrassing situation.
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:32 AM   #15
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Are you using a general "you" or do you think I personally don't have the ability to mold my emotions the way I claim?
It's not that I think you can't. I just have some strong doubts, because my own experiences have run so much against that; not just in my own life, but in the lives of those around me. I rarely encounter people whose emotional stimuli changes over the course of years, or even decades.

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What you admire is something they may not like about themselves. Women want men who are attracted to them as a person. One thing I experienced in my years dating bigger women is many of them have had an encounter or two with guys who have a fat fetish and no woman wants to be the object of a guy's fetish.
I'm calling this right now, because I see this word used a lot, and I want to point out that it's not often used correctly. The word "fetish" specifically pertains to either a sexual obsession, or to an inanimate object. For me, it's not especially sexual. Oh, it is an obsession, but it's more like what I was saying about the ocean or the grand canyon, or a nature hike. We appreciate the beauty of these things without necessarily feeling sexual about them.

Speaking personally, I have always disliked when people wanted to know what I'd been up to over the last week, or yesterday evening, or have wanted to talk to me about the weather and such, and it's not because I have anything to hide, or (God forbid) because I'm hesitant in telling them the truth about what happened. I just find those topics boring, because they're about mundane issues that could happen to anyone. Because of this, I have a hard time sympathizing with or understanding the drive to move relationships in that mundane direction. Instead, I like to talk about qualities, talents, abilities, ethics, dreams and imagination.

Maybe, if a woman just wanted to cuddle all day, all night, all the time, I might eventually get tired of it if we never talked about anything, but I just don't feel that focusing on the minutiae will do anything to progress a relationship.

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It's about wanting to be wanted for who they are and treated like a normal woman. Drawing attention to her fatness, no matter how well meaning you may be, often has the opposite effect.
"Who they are." Who is this, exactly? I've said this before. A person is a rational animal, composed of a union of soul and body, and it does no good to ignore half of that composition, and still expect that the relationship will be based on "who you are."

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The response you gave in the context you gave it could be easily interpreted that you want to express your emotions even if it makes the person to whom you express them uneasy. That's a lack of tact and if you do it knowing it makes the other person uneasy or outright hurts them, I'd say it's definitely a character flaw.
Does a lack of tact kill someone? Does it steal from someone, deceive them, cause enviousness, or otherwise commit some crime against them?

I'm legitimately trying to understand what the connection is here between tact and ethics, and I'm drawing a blank. It sounds like you're referring to sentiment, which has nothing to do with ethics, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Please explain.

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Third date? That's amusing. Try 7th or 8th year of being married. That's the kind of credibility you need to really be able to have these kinds of conversations without risking an embarrassing situation.
Then I'm doomed to be alone, because I could never commit to a relationship with anyone unless we were of one mind on this.

Keep in mind what I said before. I'm already having emotional trouble because of how much and how long I've sat on the expressions of these feelings, and with every new "sighting" that goes unexpressed, those feelings grow more unbearable. Do you really think that I could knowingly place myself in a position where, for 7 years, I would find those feelings building and building like a volcano; not just every couple of weeks, or every month, but every second that I'm in the home, and never, ever getting to express them, in the hopes that one day I might be permitted to share them with someone?

I've heard that love and beauty warm the heart of others. For me, they're a consuming fire, and I'm always burning. If anything that you've just said is true, my best bet is to become a hermit.
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Old 03-04-2017, 01:28 PM   #16
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Does a lack of tact kill someone?
No - a lack of tact doesn't kill someone.
But constant lack of tact kills something in someone - their feeling of selfworth.

Weight is - especially for women - a highly intimate subject. And one which, if you don't conform to the social weight norm - is constantly, tactlessly dragged out in the open and discussed. There is no other personal "weakness" or "fault" were it is so socially accepted to pick on others in public.

That leaves a lot of emotional scars over time. And when you address it directly very early on in personal contact - I can tell you what will happen: As soon as you use the words "weight" or "fat" - the mental shutters of your date will go down. She will no longer hear, let alone grasp any of the positive things you might have to say about both (fat fetishism isn't even an issue at this point). And she probably will not be interested in hearing any more from you, let alone give you as serious chance as friend- or relationship material.

If letting out your preferences verbally at first site is so important - fine, go ahead, do so. But then you'll have to live with the consequences.

How about some subtlety? There are lots of ways of showing your appreciation without blurting out: "Your fat is gorgeous!"

Tell her how wonderfully smooth and creamy her skin is. That you're a boobs, butt, thunder-thighs - or whatever - man. How great you thing some truly plus-size model looks and how much she resembles her. Your favorite paintings by Rubens or Botero, etc., etc.

And give it time. True intimacy, meaning also the option of honestly discussion weaknesses, needs time. Time to establish personal trust. If you reach that point, then you can let it out - and you will be heard.
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Old 03-04-2017, 02:59 PM   #17
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No - a lack of tact doesn't kill someone.
But constant lack of tact kills something in someone - their feeling of selfworth.
Actually, I've found that when multiple tactless people interact with each other, it sort of burns off most doubts about your worth as a person, but that might just be how it worked for me.

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Weight is - especially for women - a highly intimate subject. And one which, if you don't conform to the social weight norm - is constantly, tactlessly dragged out in the open and discussed. There is no other personal "weakness" or "fault" were it is so socially accepted to pick on others in public.
Heck, it doesn't have to be out in the open, though that would make things a little less confusing. I'm just sick of always having the most elaborate, flowery compliments (soft as a field of geraniums, etc...) struggling to get out of my mouth, and having to keep forcing them down.

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That leaves a lot of emotional scars over time. And when you address it directly very early on in personal contact - I can tell you what will happen: As soon as you use the words "weight" or "fat" - the mental shutters of your date will go down. She will no longer hear, let alone grasp any of the positive things you might have to say about both (fat fetishism isn't even an issue at this point). And she probably will not be interested in hearing any more from you, let alone give you as serious chance as friend- or relationship material.
Maybe it's just as well, then. She probably wouldn't enjoy my company if it's really that big of a problem for her, and as I pointed out, I'd probably be just as miserable if I had to keep my mouth shut as a rule of thumb. There's little point in a relationship where one or both participants needs to make the other miserable all the time.

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And give it time. True intimacy, meaning also the option of honestly discussion weaknesses, needs time. Time to establish personal trust. If you reach that point, then you can let it out - and you will be heard.
See, I'm still not sure. Keep in mind, I'm still not convinced that people can change the stimuli that cause their emotions to react (though it's possible that others; even most people can, outside of the people who I personally know,) so I'm always a little worried that after weeks, months, years, or what have you, I'll discover that the insecure feelings of person X weren't really insecure feelings, but represented an actual, genuine dislike of fatness, as unchangeable as my own feelings. That would be like a nightmare to me, because I've been in lots of unsympathetic relationships (family, friends, etc...) and another one just isn't what I want. I'd be inconsolable.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:24 PM   #18
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It's not that I think you can't. I just have some strong doubts, because my own experiences have run so much against that; not just in my own life, but in the lives of those around me. I rarely encounter people whose emotional stimuli changes over the course of years, or even decades.
Doubt away but you're applying your baseline to me. Fundamentally wrong, partner. I'm a completely different person than you so basing what you believe about my ability to do something on your own ability to do (or not do) something is as flawed as it gets.

To be fair, we all normalize everything to our own selves. But at some point you have to take a step back and recognize that you are not universal and what's normal to you is not necessarily normal to someone else.

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I'm calling this right now, because I see this word used a lot, and I want to point out that it's not often used correctly. The word "fetish" specifically pertains to either a sexual obsession, or to an inanimate object. For me, it's not especially sexual. Oh, it is an obsession, but it's more like what I was saying about the ocean or the grand canyon, or a nature hike. We appreciate the beauty of these things without necessarily feeling sexual about them.
Fetish: a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.

That's the definition on google. Based on that definition I've used the word correctly. Remember how I used the word: I wasn't suggesting your attraction is a fetish, I was referring to women who have encountered men who seemed to have fetishes and thus had defenses up. How this relates to you is that your initial question and the lack of tact involved will most likely result in those defenses going up.

Ironically enough, I recently reconnected with a friend who I tried to date years ago. I was still a bit clumsy back then, still learning how to treat bigger girls: that they don't need you to assure them you like their ht/wt, but just treat them like you would a normal girl. At any rate sometime last year I asked why she abruptly broke contact with me way back when. She said on one of our first meetings I'd mentioned liking her weight, saying something about it being very appealing to me. She gave me a general explanation back then, but this was the first time I'd heard specifics. I remember exactly what she was talking about and to me it was a benign comment. To her it was a red flag because even though I seemed sincere she had been burned by a couple other guys who also seemed sincere.

(Fun fact: I wound up getting married before she did, and when we first connected again on FB she saw I'd married a bigger woman and was all I missed out! But she's in a good place now too. )

You may indeed be sincere in your expression, but to a woman who doesn't know you, you can't blame them for applying their own past experiences to you. After all, you did the exact same thing to me, didn't you? Remember: they don't know you so they don't know if you're sincere or not.

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Speaking personally...
You're only one part of the equation. If you want to meet someone and grow together you have to recognize that their preferences have to matter even more than your own.

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"Who they are." Who is this, exactly? I've said this before. A person is a rational animal, composed of a union of soul and body, and it does no good to ignore half of that composition, and still expect that the relationship will be based on "who you are."
But you don't know how she thinks. You may catch lightening in a bottle and meet that one who agrees with you. But there's a lot of women out there who make a distinction between the "who" and the "what." For example, she may say, "I'm a fat woman." (what) but also "I'm a person named ____." (who). Do you see the difference?

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Does a lack of tact kill someone? Does it steal from someone, deceive them, cause enviousness, or otherwise commit some crime against them?
No of course not. But tact can be the difference between an abrupt end to a first date or a marriage 11+ years and counting. Ask me how I know.

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I'm legitimately trying to understand what the connection is here between tact and ethics, and I'm drawing a blank. It sounds like you're referring to sentiment, which has nothing to do with ethics, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Please explain.
It's not hard to understand unless you have committed yourself to overthinking things. Tact is the difference between having a bit of social grace or being either a colossal douche nozzle or socially inept.

And I'm not referring to sentiment or ethics. I'm referring to the reality that if you proceed without concern for another's feelings, you lack tact and are likely in one of the two alternative groups I've identified. Don't overthink things.

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Then I'm doomed to be alone, because I could never commit to a relationship with anyone unless we were of one mind on this.
Then I would have to consider you extremely superficial and shallow. After all, we'd say the same thing about anyone who did not want his partner to gain weight after he had committed to her. A committed relationship presumably lasts over time and over time physical changes take place. And a physical attraction is the genesis of this conversation.

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Keep in mind what I said before. I'm already having emotional trouble because of how much and how long I've sat on the expressions of these feelings, and with every new "sighting" that goes unexpressed, those feelings grow more unbearable. Do you really think that I could knowingly place myself in a position where, for 7 years, I would find those feelings building and building like a volcano; not just every couple of weeks, or every month, but every second that I'm in the home, and never, ever getting to express them, in the hopes that one day I might be permitted to share them with someone?

I've heard that love and beauty warm the heart of others. For me, they're a consuming fire, and I'm always burning. If anything that you've just said is true, my best bet is to become a hermit.
Then step out and try it your way. It didn't work for me but thankfully I learned and grew. Maybe it'll work for you.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:36 PM   #19
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No - a lack of tact doesn't kill someone.
But constant lack of tact kills something in someone - their feeling of self worth.
Exactly. To OP it's a well meant compliment but to the woman to whom he shares said "compliment" it's very likely the latest in a string of (at best) cautionary flags or (at worst) outright demeaning drawing of attention to her weight.

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Originally Posted by agouderia View Post
Weight is - especially for women - a highly intimate subject. And one which, if you don't conform to the social weight norm - is constantly, tactlessly dragged out in the open and discussed. There is no other personal "weakness" or "fault" were it is so socially accepted to pick on others in public.
This is pure gold. Platinum, even. I can't even add to it but I can't stress to OP enough that THIS IS WHY his approach is highly likely to fail.

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See, I'm still not sure. Keep in mind, I'm still not convinced that people can change the stimuli that cause their emotions to react...
Do you find it acceptable when a grown adult reacts the way a small child would when something doesn't go his/her own way? Do you believe in emotional maturity?
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:24 PM   #20
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Doubt away but you're applying your baseline to me... etc...
These two paragraphs merely signify to me that you didn't read all of what I wrote. As I said, the data from which I draw my conclusions isn't just based on me, but on everyone I know or have known. That's definitely enough data to start drawing conclusions from. Two people would be sufficient to begin drawing rational conclusions from, because it would represent the greater amount of evidence in support of an inductive conclusion.

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I wasn't suggesting your attraction is a fetish, I was referring to women who have encountered men who seemed to have fetishes and thus had defenses up.
I'm not seeing the connection between these two things. Please explain this. Also, if you're saying what I think you're saying, how does rushing to incorrect conclusions qualify as a "defense?"

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How this relates to you is that your initial question and the lack of tact involved will most likely result in those defenses going up.
I think you know better than that. That's not at all the issue here. I've already responded to the "initial question" claim, and I'm still waiting on a reply about the worth of tact.

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You may indeed be sincere in your expression, but to a woman who doesn't know you, you can't blame them for applying their own past experiences to you.
I don't, but I'm surprised that you don't, given that you just criticized me for this very thing; inductive reasoning.

And no; I don't take issue with anyone for being scared. There's a lot to be scared of in this wicked world. I take issue with choosing revulsion over the desire to learn and understand.

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You're only one part of the equation. If you want to meet someone and grow together you have to recognize that their preferences have to matter even more than your own.
They do, but a failure on either end is enough to deprive the relationship of its purpose. Just as I wouldn't hold it against anyone who decided I just wasn't what she was looking for, there are a few things that would make a legitimate relationship unworkable on my end as well.

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But there's a lot of women out there who make a distinction between the "who" and the "what." For example, she may say, "I'm a fat woman." (what) but also "I'm a person named ____." (who). Do you see the difference?
Are you saying that once you know the person's name, and use it regularly, you can also express how you really feel? I haven't found that to be the case.

In any case, it's definitely much more than just a name. A person is identified by a plethora of fears, interests, dreams, wishes, talents, hobbies, points of view, etc... Many of these things, however, can change over time, so it's important to understand them as fully as possible.

Keep in mind the central question; are these things intended to be a condition for the expression of my feelings, or are they intended to be a replacement for it? One of these is sufficient to make all the work, difficulty, compromise and hardship of a relationship worthwhile, and the other is not, so please answer this question as clearly as possible.

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It's not hard to understand unless you have committed yourself to overthinking things.
Alright. This is going to come up sooner or later, so you may as well know now. I don't think the same way that most others do. While many other people have helpful instincts and "common sense," I have no ability to intuit whatsoever, or rather, the things that I intuit nearly always run contrary to the prevailing views. For this reason, in order to find work, friends, a purpose, etc, I've needed to supplement my intuitions with exhaustive analysis, which takes longer, but often leads to important discoveries.

So, no. For me, it is hard to understand, and my habit of thinking everything through is a coping mechanism, not the cause of my failure to understand.

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Tact is the difference between having a bit of social grace or being either a colossal douche nozzle or socially inept.
All of these terms are highly ambiguous, though I've learned to identify myself as socially awkward in the past, so I think I may understand part of what you mean.

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Then I would have to consider you extremely superficial and shallow. After all, we'd say the same thing about anyone who did not want his partner to gain weight after he had committed to her. A committed relationship presumably lasts over time and over time physical changes take place. And a physical attraction is the genesis of this conversation.
Not hardly. The genesis of this conversion was the freedom to express feelings. Allowing/encouraging a beloved partner or significant other to express feelings dear to their heart is not a physical quality, attraction or change. It is a behavioral factor, and can be adopted by anyone who's willing to act with a little maturity and self-control. I do this all the time, whenever I listen to my friends or family talk about their lives, then give my input. Do you think I actually find their lives compelling or interesting? No! I listen because they're my family/friends, and it's a good thing to do for someone who's done right by you! I view this as no different at all.

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Then step out and try it your way. It didn't work for me but thankfully I learned and grew.
There's nowhere to grow to, unless you have any ideas for how to circumvent or avoid these obstacles.

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THIS IS WHY his approach is highly likely to fail.
Again, we're not talking about a different approach. If what you've been telling me is true, our end goals are quite different.

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Do you find it acceptable when a grown adult reacts the way a small child would when something doesn't go his/her own way? Do you believe in emotional maturity?
Maybe, under a different name. I believe in ethical maturity; having the strength to do what's right in the face of harsh opposition. I believe in self-control; the virtue to stop oneself from doing evil or harming others, and to make oneself do good and right. I believe in relationship maturity; the willingness to give of one's time, resources, attention and effort for the sake of supporting a good relationship. However, that's about all I believe in that even comes close to what you're describing. Everyone I know who has a set of distinct feelings had the same distinct feelings five years ago, and, (in the cases of those who I've known for longer than five years,) also ten, twenty and thirty years ago.
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Old 03-05-2017, 06:08 AM   #21
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This will probably be my last reply. At least my last attempt to go point for point and over complicate a simple subject that can be boiled down to 3 words: Respect others' preferences. These posts are growing longer and longer and while I don't think you're being intentionally obtuse, but you yourself acknowledged:

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Alright. This is going to come up sooner or later, so you may as well know now. I don't think the same way that most others do. While many other people have helpful instincts and "common sense," I have no ability to intuit whatsoever, or rather, the things that I intuit nearly always run contrary to the prevailing views. For this reason, in order to find work, friends, a purpose, etc, I've needed to supplement my intuitions with exhaustive analysis, which takes longer, but often leads to important discoveries.

So, no. For me, it is hard to understand, and my habit of thinking everything through is a coping mechanism, not the cause of my failure to understand.
Exhaustive analysis may be nice and all but that's the kind of work I do for a living and I am not inclined to keep it up during my leisure time. And I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I intend it as a legit suggestion, but you may consider professional help, either something to assist you with your coping mechanism or at minimum someone who can give you a little social coaching.


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These two paragraphs merely signify to me that you didn't read all of what I wrote. As I said, the data from which I draw my conclusions isn't just based on me, but on everyone I know or have known. That's definitely enough data to start drawing conclusions from. Two people would be sufficient to begin drawing rational conclusions from, because it would represent the greater amount of evidence in support of an inductive conclusion.
I certainly did read it but dismiss the idea again. People tend to surround themselves by people who give them validation. I'm not sure where you find that many who lack emotional maturity but the vast majority of adults in my life have a healthy enough degree of it to validate my own position. So we are at an impasse here.

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I'm not seeing the connection between these two things. Please explain this. Also, if you're saying what I think you're saying, how does rushing to incorrect conclusions qualify as a "defense?"
Okay, I'll apologize for using the word "initial." I should have known you'd hone in on that word and miss entirely the general point I am trying to make. And that is, if you go where you want to go TOO EARLY (and "too early" is defined by the person you're getting to know, so you never really know when it's not "too early") she may well assume you have a fetish and decide that's not for her. Who cares about her conclusions about you being wrong? Do you want to get to know her or not? Is expressing your appreciation for something that may be an extremely sensitive issue to her so important that you risk shutting her down over it? And I'll tell you why "rushing to incorrect conclusions" qualifies as a defense. Defense is like insurance. You hope you never need to use it but when you need it you're glad it's there. A woman may think "Maybe I'm being too hasty but honestly I've been burned too many times to give anyone who goes there a chance and I have to start thinking about protecting myself." Like my friend whose example I shared with you. Did you even read it?

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I think you know better than that. That's not at all the issue here. I've already responded to the "initial question" claim, and I'm still waiting on a reply about the worth of tact.
See above on my word choice regarding initial. As for the claim on tact, both Agouderia and I have repeatedly outlined why tact is so valuable. You've either not read and considered them or you've dismissed it them without so much as a rebuttal. Which is fine with me, it's no skin off my nose. But the thoughts are there for you to read and consider. I'm not in the practice of saying again what I've already said, especially when it's in writing and anyone can just go back and read it.

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I don't, but I'm surprised that you don't, given that you just criticized me for this very thing; inductive reasoning.

And no; I don't take issue with anyone for being scared. There's a lot to be scared of in this wicked world. I take issue with choosing revulsion over the desire to learn and understand.
Here's why I criticized YOU for it: I'm having a conversation with YOU. I'm not having a conversation with any theoretical woman out there on the receiving end of your "praise" for her fat. If I were in such a conversation with her I'd encourage her to not jump to conclusions but take a guarded optimism going forward. Secondly, you applied your baseline to me on a general behavioral trait. In the hypothetical we're discussing she'd be applying her baseline experiences toward you based on an intimately personal physical trait that may well have resulted in her being hurt in the past. Slightly different circumstances.

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They do, but a failure on either end is enough to deprive the relationship of its purpose. Just as I wouldn't hold it against anyone who decided I just wasn't what she was looking for, there are a few things that would make a legitimate relationship unworkable on my end as well.
Relationships change and grow over time because people change and grow. It's really unreasonable to expect someone to be able to project well into the future that she will never want to drop below that magical 200 pound threshold you adore so much. Suppose she gets news about a health concern that can grow more serious with time? Or maybe she sees something that inspires her to pursue weightless and athletic activities and these pursuits genuinely make her happy?

Is your basis for your attraction to her so tied to the physical that you believe these changes would disrupt the relationship? If so I'll repeat that I think that makes you a bit shallow. Furthermore, it validates any hypothetical concern a hypothetical woman may have if/when you raise the issue early on as you're getting to know her.

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Are you saying that once you know the person's name, and use it regularly, you can also express how you really feel? I haven't found that to be the case.
You missed that point so ridiculously bad that I'm starting to rethink my "deliberately obtuse" comment. I'm not trying to be mean, but, no, that's not even close to what I'm saying. You're off by comical proportions.

My point is the difference between "who" and "what." Most women want to be appreciated for "who" they are, not "what" they are.

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All of these terms are highly ambiguous, though I've learned to identify myself as socially awkward in the past, so I think I may understand part of what you mean.
They have professionals who specialize in coaching for social situations. This can help with your awkwardness if you're interested.

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Not hardly. The genesis of this conversion was the freedom to express feelings.
This sort of thing is why I'm bowing out of this discussion. Yes, freedom to express feelings is the genesis but the venue in which that freedom was introduced is related to physical attraction and that is the context we've discussed this while time.

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There's nowhere to grow to, unless you have any ideas for how to circumvent or avoid these obstacles.
I do. It's called tact. But you've already dismissed the worth of tact so...

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Again, we're not talking about a different approach. If what you've been telling me is true, our end goals are quite different.
Again, you're allowing a single word to distract you from the main idea conveyed. I'll stand by the points I've made, but I'll not debate you on the points you wish or think I've made.

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Maybe, under a different name. I believe in ethical maturity; having the strength to do what's right in the face of harsh opposition. I believe in self-control; the virtue to stop oneself from doing evil or harming others, and to make oneself do good and right. I believe in relationship maturity; the willingness to give of one's time, resources, attention and effort for the sake of supporting a good relationship. However, that's about all I believe in that even comes close to what you're describing. Everyone I know who has a set of distinct feelings had the same distinct feelings five years ago, and, (in the cases of those who I've known for longer than five years,) also ten, twenty and thirty years ago.
That's quite a circle you run in.

As indicated I'm probably done trying to go point for point with you. I will say this: ultimately I do understand that you need someone with whom to express these feelings and in the event you do end up in a relationship, her respecting your needs is just as important as your respecting hers. This includes being an outlet for your expression. Still, it can be dicey.

I already hinted at this, but I was 7 or 8 years into my marriage when I asked my wife if she'd consider instead of attempting to lose weight to work on a better self image at her current weight. She said she couldn't do that, and a relatively short time after that had some success losing weight. Unfortunately for her she gained it all back and then some. She knows I support her weight loss efforts but she also knows that not only am I not complaining about her weight but am outright loving it. She does not begrudge me that, but she used to. She's grown in the relationship too and we're better for it. She still doesn't like me fawning over certain features on her body, but in some circumstances allows it (and in the right circumstances does seem to enjoy it).

So we've reached a healthy balance where my need to express my appreciation for the one woman I'll ever be with again is respected and her desire for as little undue attention to certain parts of her body is respected. Balance.

Good luck, TS.
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Old 03-05-2017, 07:52 AM   #22
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I don't think I need to touch on every point, since you made a good end to the conversation with the following paragraphs...

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I will say this: ultimately I do understand that you need someone with whom to express these feelings and in the event you do end up in a relationship, her respecting your needs is just as important as your respecting hers. This includes being an outlet for your expression.
Yes. That is the central point.

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So we've reached a healthy balance where my need to express my appreciation for the one woman I'll ever be with again is respected and her desire for as little undue attention to certain parts of her body is respected. Balance.
If that's sufficient to make the relationship bearable, I couldn't be happier for you.

I also think you hit very close to the mark, when you said...

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Is expressing your appreciation for something that may be an extremely sensitive issue to her so important that you risk shutting her down over it?
I don't want to take any risks that I don't need to, which is why I went looking for tips, but yes. Yes, it is really that important.

Thank you for the insurance analogy. That helps me to understand the situation a little better. Though it doesn't really change my situation any, any tidbit of information is helpful.

However, I am still really confused by a ton of what you said, and I know, you're not obligated to go into analysis or clarify anything, but just for the record, I want to point out what, precisely, I still don't get.

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...and "too early" is defined by the person you're getting to know, so you never really know when it's not "too early"...
This is one of the most relevant portions with regard to what I was asking for, though it would be nice to have some descriptions of warning signs, which I could use to determine when it's "too early." What? Do you just ask the person if you can start expressing how you really feel?

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Like my friend whose example I shared with you. Did you even read it?
Of course, but in your friend's case, being defensive was a costly mistake, so it seemed to more or less validate what I'd been saying all along.

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You've either not read and considered them or you've dismissed it them without so much as a rebuttal.
There's no need to rebut it. I asked for clarification. I still don't understand this, and I think it's strange and likely to lead to wasted time on both sides. So far, I don't have a reason to think otherwise.

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Secondly, you applied your baseline to me on a general behavioral trait. In the hypothetical we're discussing she'd be applying her baseline experiences toward you based on an intimately personal physical trait that may well have resulted in her being hurt in the past.
That's what inductive reasoning is. From specific examples to general conclusions. As for the rest... You're suggesting that I try to get information on whether she's previously been hurt? I guess? I'm not sure what you're recommending here.

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Suppose she gets news about a health concern that can grow more serious with time? Or maybe she sees something that inspires her to pursue weightless and athletic activities and these pursuits genuinely make her happy?

Is your basis for your attraction to her so tied to the physical that you believe these changes would disrupt the relationship?
The first one, no. I would mourn with her over her illness, and share, to the best of my ability, in her suffering, because that's something I can completely understand and sympathize with. She would never want for a shoulder to cry on.

However, if she ever found that being thin could make her happy, I would mourn alone, because I could never draw any kind of happiness from being thin, and I can't understand people who can. It would make us so different from one another, that I honestly don't know what would happen.

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...that's not even close to what I'm saying.
Well, that's what you actually said, overtly. I'm looking for what "who she is" means, as in, a working definition or list of all the things it encompasses, and I still haven't found one.

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My point is the difference between "who" and "what." Most women want to be appreciated for "who" they are, not "what" they are.
Right, and my point is what does that mean?!!??! You're using words, and I have no idea what you mean by them! My gosh!

I don't mean to be combative (in this topic,) and I don't mean to be a pain, but I just don't understand half of this stuff, or how anybody else can deal with it. I still get a "thou shalt not openly appreciate good things of a not-approved type" vibe from the whole thing, and I've never heard any good reason why this is the case.

In closing, do you know what I think all of this is really about? I think, as with all relationship issues, the only reason why any of us even try is that we're tired of being lonely. The only question is; what does it take before we stop feeling lonely? I've felt lonely all my life. I've been surrounded by people, been to many different schools, jobs, recreational activities, but my thoughts and positions were always just kind of discarded without a second thought. It was like being invited to party after party, only to be told, once you get there, that you have to spend the whole party standing in the corner and not participating, or else someone might get hurt. To me, that's what loneliness is. It's never having a group to belong to. It's always being on the outskirts of human relationships, observing and studying, and never quite meeting anyone you can truly sympathize with.

You know, I honestly think it would be easier for me to strike up a relationship with a thin woman, as long as she was an FA like me, because at least then, I wouldn't have to feel like I was alone in the room.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:04 AM   #23
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I read the majority of the replies. My advice, get better at flirting. Flirt with a fat woman, if she likes you and is interested she will bring up her size at some point, that is the opening you are waiting for, in my experience. And don't go over board with it, on first mention. Saying something like, "I prefer fat chicks" sounds causal, or "I usually prefer larger women" I would then try to move the conversation, back to the flirting realm, unless she has follow up questions.

If you come out and say something like, "I love how your belly hangs!" You will sound like a creeper. In modern dating, it is important to establish that you are not a sexual predator.

And you have no idea where on the size acceptance spectrum, the fat woman you are talking to falls in.
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Old 03-06-2017, 03:39 PM   #24
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One of THE biggest complaints, today as in the olden days before the net, is that men are in TOO BIG A HURRY.

Women can SMELL that you haven't touched a woman in quite some time, and it repels them. There is time to flood them with sonnets. It doesn't have to be right NOW, TODAY. You have a ton of energy. Some people like that, most people, especially women, don't.

Take your time. Deep breath, cowboy. Your frustration is screaming. It's "What wrong with me that I can't get a girlfriend?" in a different package.

Or, as a friend said to me in 7th grade when I asked his advice about how to get girls -

"Relax."
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Old 03-06-2017, 04:08 PM   #25
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If you are having issues finding dates or connecting with women maybe you should change your approach.
Its not that they have issues its you that has to learn how to interact with a woman.
I see by the past threads you just want to argue with people that are tying to help you.
You aren't going to change thats obvious and you aren't willing to learn so you are on your own.
You only have yourself to blame.
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