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Old 03-07-2017, 08:04 PM   #51
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I wouldn’t really say that I suffer though. I can’t think of a situation that I encounter, where I want to say something about fat women and I don’t. I don’t go out of my way to make comments unless they are appropriate to the situation.
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Old 03-07-2017, 08:45 PM   #52
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As you profess to be, I am alarmingly inept at picking up subtle cues and clues, particularly those that may indicate that someone holds me in positive regard.

Somehow, though, I've managed to navigate the 'fat' thing. There have been a few occasions in which I've been allowed to express those feelings (and even use the word 'fat' in a positive way and have it be taken that way) upon first meeting a woman. Not first date: first meeting. Some have even told me their weight during our first conversation.

Of course, there were some relationships in which neither the word nor the sentiment were expressed. Did I feel stifled by this? No.

For me, having is more important than reiterating what I have. For me, mind you. This does not presuppose a higher level of maturity or moral fortitude (believe me), but just a difference.

Tell her she's beautiful, but not as a conversation opener. Tell her you noticed her. Or that you remember seeing her around. Tell her you're always glad when you happen to meet.

Trust breeds trust.

If you are suspicious of her reactions to you, even those she may hold private, you will act suspicious, and she will pick up on that.

Trust her not to hurt you.

Be open, but don't leer.

Don't put her physicality first, conversationally.

If you want her comfortable with you, be comfortable with her.

Intimacy (I'm talking the emotional kind) is for those who connect. Stop thinking of it as a finish line or a goal. Once achieved, it must continue to be strived for. Or striven. Yeah, spellcheck likes that better.

True expression will come. It will be more than tolerated; it will be necessary.

In early stages, though, you don't want to come across like that 'radical truth' guy on Lie To Me, so hang back. Truth is truth. It's not gone in a moment. There will be time to express it as the relationship develops.
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Old 03-07-2017, 09:20 PM   #53
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To the OP. No woman is ever going to be okay with you expressing your feeling (on whatever number date) about a specific aspect of their body unless they are totally comfortable with you AND are in the first place at least okay with that aspect of their physical appearance; which they may not be in the least. I have dated women that really hate being anything other than thin, these women were big and it didn't take very long for me to figure out that I could never make them like their big body. Imagine it like being a guy that loves women with MASSIVE boobs; I can't imagine any scenario dating or meeting the first time that it would even be okay to express that to her (if she brings up an aspect of her body then you could carefully tell her you like her curves etc. but the exact way you say anything will have a big impact on how she feels about what you think), weight is the same really in that it is so very personal. Also guys that really like big women will tend make a big deal about her weight which would then shift the focus off personality, interests, life etc and on to the fairly superficial topic of physical appearance/looks; which I place alongside talking about her boobs whatever. The fact that you're showing interest in a woman does communicate that you do (at least in some ways) think she is good to look at. I apologise if I missed the mark partially or completely.
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
I wouldn’t really say that I suffer though. I can’t think of a situation that I encounter, where I want to say something about fat women and I don’t. I don’t go out of my way to make comments unless they are appropriate to the situation.
It sounds like our feelings are different, then.

P.S.: What I mean is that I tend to avoid comments that aren't appropriate to the situation too, but for me, that just makes the need to say them in some other venue stronger. I've referred to this, in the past, as emotional reflux, and I'm not exaggerating. It really does feel like I'm filling with emotional thumb tacks whenever I sit on comments about weight; especially these days.

Lately, I've been trying to let it out a little, like saying "it's your life," whenever someone expresses a desire to lose weight, but it's not enough by half.
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:33 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by FreeThinker View Post
Of course, there were some relationships in which neither the word nor the sentiment were expressed. Did I feel stifled by this? No.

For me, having is more important than reiterating what I have. For me, mind you. This does not presuppose a higher level of maturity or moral fortitude (believe me), but just a difference.
Yes. This is a big difference between us.

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Trust her not to hurt you.
In a certain sense, that boat has kind of sailed.

I mean, I want to trust someone again, which is why I'm still on the lookout for someone I can be open with, but this attitude of trust is not reconcilable with the view that rejection is normative, which I responded to just a bit ago.

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Don't put her physicality first, conversationally.
Do you mean first in priority, or first in a timeline sense?

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If you want her comfortable with you, be comfortable with her.
That's just the thing! I can't be comfortable! I can never be comfortable! Not until I can get this off my chest, and that's looking more and more unlikely with each passing day! I have literally no means of doing what you suggest!

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Stop thinking of it as a finish line or a goal.
Umm... No. There's an opportunity I want. I don't have that opportunity. It is therefore a goal.

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In early stages, though, you don't want to come across like that 'radical truth' guy on Lie To Me, so hang back. Truth is truth. It's not gone in a moment. There will be time to express it as the relationship develops.
Truth is everlasting and indelible. The risk is that I'll burst before my feelings become fully accepted.
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:43 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by petersmyth79 View Post
Also guys that really like big women will tend make a big deal about her weight which would then shift the focus off personality, interests, life etc and on to the fairly superficial topic of physical appearance/looks; which I place alongside talking about her boobs whatever. The fact that you're showing interest in a woman does communicate that you do (at least in some ways) think she is good to look at. I apologise if I missed the mark partially or completely.
I'm skipping over the doom and gloom parts, and going straight to this.

As I've said, I need to express these feelings. That's the main goal and primary purpose that I'm looking to fulfill. If she can't help with that, that's not okay for me.

If she can, but there's some price or condition involved, it's more than probable that I'd be willing to pay that price, but I can't change what I need. If I could, I wouldn't ever be in another relationship again.

For this reason, it's not enough to imply my feelings. I must express them. There's no other option. I have no choice. I'll do this in a relationship, or I'll do it outside of one, but any relationship that requires me to sit on them (and I mean, for good) is not worth the massive price of admission.

I know lots of people who have personalities, and while I can and do get to know people on a personal level, I outright refuse to pretend that I can be in a relationship with someone, and conceal, for months, the biggest, strongest and most persistent part of my feelings about them.

I hope you don't think I'm offended or anything. I'm really not. But "abandon all hope, ye who enter here" isn't the advice I need.
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Old 03-08-2017, 05:05 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I'm skipping over the doom and gloom parts, and going straight to this.

As I've said, I need to express these feelings. That's the main goal and primary purpose that I'm looking to fulfill. If she can't help with that, that's not okay for me.

If she can, but there's some price or condition involved, it's more than probable that I'd be willing to pay that price, but I can't change what I need. If I could, I wouldn't ever be in another relationship again.

For this reason, it's not enough to imply my feelings. I must express them. There's no other option. I have no choice. I'll do this in a relationship, or I'll do it outside of one, but any relationship that requires me to sit on them (and I mean, for good) is not worth the massive price of admission.

I know lots of people who have personalities, and while I can and do get to know people on a personal level, I outright refuse to pretend that I can be in a relationship with someone, and conceal, for months, the biggest, strongest and most persistent part of my feelings about them.

I hope you don't think I'm offended or anything. I'm really not. But "abandon all hope, ye who enter here" isn't the advice I need.
Fair enough, for me the way I express my love for big women is to/with my wife. I adore her because of many reasons; one of them being because she is cute and cuddly (big and getting bigger; because she loves her food and I love to spoil her). I don't have to ignore my feelings because she shares my feelings. I am not sure if this is helpful either; but it helps me.
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:35 AM   #58
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TwoSwords: you come across, to me, like a research guy -- like someone who tries to figure things out in a more formal manner than just gut feel. Is that about right? I'm about to list some research material to take a gander at and think about and try to integrate with your experiences.

I'm not claiming that any of these will answer your questions directly (or even indirectly), but I think they all offer differing view points around some of these issues. I'm also not claiming that I personally agree with / believe in all of these, but that doesn't meant that I don't think they offer a view point worth cogitating on. I'll offer web links, but most of these are/were books, and you might want to read the books for a fuller view on the issues.

The Five Languages of Love
- online quiz here
- Wikipedia article here (but do the quiz first)

Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus
- Wikipedia article

The Beauty Myth
- Wikipedia article

Fat is a Feminist Issue
- brief article talking about the book on The Guardian

The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense
- super brief summary of dealing with attacks here: https://adrr.com/aa/overview.html
- Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense blurb at Goodreads
- 'Genderspeak' blurb on Goodreads
- One things she points out often is "Miller's Law of Communication", which you can find summarized on wikipedia here

Happy reading!
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Old 03-08-2017, 09:36 AM   #59
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Is your desire to tell everyone your feelings about fat women new?
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:45 PM   #60
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I'm getting the feeling two swords can be a bit over bearing around women.
Maybe that s why they don't show interest.
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Old 03-08-2017, 01:44 PM   #61
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I'm getting the feeling two swords can be a bit over bearing around women.
Maybe that s why they don't show interest.

I've been thinking the same thing for at least 30 posts now. Some of the things he's said make me thankful I don't have a daughter living near him.

Seen a lot of good advice steered toward him and dismissed.

Best advice anyone ever gave me about seeking love is: If you think love's all about what she does for you, or how she makes YOU feel... You're doing it wrong.

But please, don't let me derail the conversation. Pass the popcorn, I'm enjoying the show.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by petersmyth79 View Post
Fair enough, for me the way I express my love for big women is to/with my wife. I adore her because of many reasons; one of them being because she is cute and cuddly (big and getting bigger; because she loves her food and I love to spoil her). I don't have to ignore my feelings because she shares my feelings. I am not sure if this is helpful either; but it helps me.
I'm sure you're not the only one.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:34 PM   #63
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TwoSwords: you come across, to me, like a research guy -- like someone who tries to figure things out in a more formal manner than just gut feel. Is that about right? I'm about to list some research material to take a gander at and think about and try to integrate with your experiences.

I'm not claiming that any of these will answer your questions directly (or even indirectly), but I think they all offer differing view points around some of these issues. I'm also not claiming that I personally agree with / believe in all of these, but that doesn't meant that I don't think they offer a view point worth cogitating on. I'll offer web links, but most of these are/were books, and you might want to read the books for a fuller view on the issues.

The Five Languages of Love
- online quiz here
- Wikipedia article here (but do the quiz first)

Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus
- Wikipedia article

The Beauty Myth
- Wikipedia article

Fat is a Feminist Issue
- brief article talking about the book on The Guardian

The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense
- super brief summary of dealing with attacks here: https://adrr.com/aa/overview.html
- Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense blurb at Goodreads
- 'Genderspeak' blurb on Goodreads
- One things she points out often is "Miller's Law of Communication", which you can find summarized on wikipedia here

Happy reading!
Thank you. I'll run some of these through text-to-speech and listen to them when I have a moment.

You're right. I'm a researcher as both a hobby and a job.

P.S.: I just ran through the love language test. Apparently, I'm pretty evenly distributed among the various types, except that I only got one "gifts" answer. Everything else was pretty close, with quality time and physical contact being the highest at 8 each. The other two were a 7 and a 6, though, so it was pretty close.

P.P.S.: I definitely agree that there are differences to be overcome between men and women, as Gray suggests, and I definitely think that the pressures of the mainstream beauty ideal can be chocked up to the existence and prevalence of the media... superficially. However, the media is, to some degree, only a symptom of the larger problem; the prioritizing of the majority to the exclusion of what the minorities would like to see. How to fix this with a system like economics, that necessarily depends on appeals to the majority for advertising, I can't say, but I think that, in concept, the internet is a step in the right direction, since it allows people to create and distribute their own forms of media, for their own minority desires, quickly and inexpensively. That all of this happened in an age where women had entered office and industrial work is, I think, largely coincidental.

P.P.P.S: I do hope Orbach is wrong, however, because that would imply that fatter women are necessarily less willing to give loving relationships a chance. I have noticed a trend in that direction, but I assumed it was coincidental, based more on insecurities and assumptions about people's opinions, than on some predetermined scheme to not be loved.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:37 PM   #64
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Is your desire to tell everyone your feelings about fat women new?
New? Hard to say. I don't recall having this desire in elementary school, when I first began noticing beauty, and in high school, I wanted to start sharing my feelings with someone, but didn't have the guts, so I worked on that. Since then, I've been trying to drop little tidbits of my feelings here and there, but it's only really in the last several years (7-5 or so,) that I've felt nearly-exasperated at not having such opportunities.

Based on the evidence, I suspect I may have had it for a long time, and that it's just been growing stronger over time, as I've kept my feelings within "reasonable social boundaries."
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:43 PM   #65
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I'm getting the feeling two swords can be a bit over bearing around women.
Maybe that s why they don't show interest.
I suppose that's possible. There aren't really any outward signs that would enable people to differentiate between my obsessive enthusiasm and legitimate mania, except that I can suppress it when I need to; it's just not easy or fun.

I also have a hard time gauging subtle behavioral differences, or balancing emotional expression. I've tended to think of it as "people either want to hear about my feelings (all the way on,) or they don't (all the way off.)" At work, church, the grocery store, etc, it's all the way off. It's easier just to not let my feelings out at all in those venues, than to try to sort through them all for degrees of "appropriateness" based on some social custom I don't understand or sympathize with.
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Old 03-08-2017, 02:46 PM   #66
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Best advice anyone ever gave me about seeking love is: If you think love's all about what she does for you, or how she makes YOU feel... You're doing it wrong.
Right. Love is a voluntary decision to do what's best for another person. What's best for another person isn't to end up with someone whose only expressible feelings are hated by them, which is why I often end up alone. Still, I'd be okay with changing that.

Failing that opportunity, it doesn't even really need to be love. As I've said, I would prefer some sort of legitimate relationship, but any casual friendship will do, provided the friend is willing and able to listen to what I have to say on this topic.
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:26 PM   #67
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I've been thinking the same thing for at least 30 posts now.

Seen a lot of good advice steered toward him and dismissed.

Best advice anyone ever gave me about seeking love is: If you think love's all about what she does for you, or how she makes YOU feel... You're doing it wrong.

But please, don't let me derail the conversation. Pass the popcorn, I'm enjoying the show.
I think it was on page two that I started to type and felt I did not have the energy to post.

I do admire the courtesy and patience of happily married, Tad, fueling fire and others to try to help. Way to go DIM's family, Thank you!

TwoSwords - The only comment that I would like to add - I could probably guarantee that you will not find a person here - tall, short - skinny, fat or super fat - Male or Female that had not felt rejection or strange in some situations. We create our life by how we handle situations, get back up and keep going.

I could share stories, that if it wasn't because I lived them, I would not believe them. My rejections will not define me, the opportunities I created have.

Hope you find the opportunity to share your feelings.
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:55 PM   #68
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TwoSwords - The only comment that I would like to add - I could probably guarantee that you will not find a person here - tall, short - skinny, fat or super fat - Male or Female that had not felt rejection or strange in some situations. We create our life by how we handle situations, get back up and keep going.

I could share stories, that if it wasn't because I lived them, I would not believe them. My rejections will not define me, the opportunities I created have.

Hope you find the opportunity to share your feelings.
Thank you, my friend.
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Old 03-08-2017, 06:11 PM   #69
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I have to ask when you do get a girl to respond and talk to you do you all of a sudden go all in telling her everything about you?
I had a guy ask me out and I thought OK he is cute and chubby so maybe we will have a good time.
The first part of the date was OK then he got real persistent asking questions about sex and what I preferred.
I said look that is not something you ask on a first date.
He said well it was something he wanted to know I said look thats not appropriate at this time I barely know you.
He explained to me he thought being persistent is what women wanted and that they thought it was "cute" .
I said no its not cute and you act like you taking me out was a favor to me because I was fat and I probably couldn't get a date.

Moral of that story is he was overbearing and rude so please don't be that kind of guy.
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Old 03-08-2017, 06:39 PM   #70
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I have to ask when you do get a girl to respond and talk to you do you all of a sudden go all in telling her everything about you?
I had a guy ask me out and I thought OK he is cute and chubby so maybe we will have a good time.
The first part of the date was OK then he got real persistent asking questions about sex and what I preferred.
I said look that is not something you ask on a first date.
He said well it was something he wanted to know I said look thats not appropriate at this time I barely know you.
He explained to me he thought being persistent is what women wanted and that they thought it was "cute" .
I've heard this rumor too, but I think it's a TV fiction.

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I said no its not cute and you act like you taking me out was a favor to me because I was fat and I probably couldn't get a date.
I suppose that's possible. It's also possible that (like me,) he either has a weak idea what's "appropriate," or just finds that the usual standards of "appropriateness" are virtually unworkable, and (unlike me,) isn't willing to investigate the concept any further (or get creative in finding other solutions) because of that.

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Moral of that story is he was overbearing and rude so please don't be that kind of guy.
I don't know for sure. I don't have a full transcript of what happened, but if all that happened was what you described, it sounds like he might have just been socially-incompetent. So was I. The only difference was that I'd had the seriousness of sex drilled into me from childhood, so I never considered it something with which to experiment socially.

Now that you've given me one of your stories, let me give you one of mine. It's shorter than the last one I gave, but in a way, it's had even more of an effect on me.

My first ever compliment to a girl outside of high school. She was pretty, and I said so. She argued against this, and I explained with the following words...

"Look, beauty isn't like a certain hair color, which you either have or don't have. Everyone is beautiful. It's just that no one can appreciate beauty of all types. You don't have to worry, because no matter what, there are always people who can appreciate your beauty."

Her response, in full...

"I hate people who like people like me."

The moral of the story; some people are mentally disturbed, so watch out for that.

In answer to your original question, though, if I ever found anyone, I think I'd probably start off by trying to learn as much as possible about her hobbies/interests, then see if she expressed a similar interest in my own interests, and if not, offer some information about hobbies of mine, or thereabouts. That's how I determine if a person is actually interested. From there, on to stage 2; sharing experiences of each others' interests. Again, willingness to reciprocate clears the road for stage 3; compliments. I've never gotten past that third stage, because no one ever wants to accept compliments, but I suppose minor physical contact (hand-holding and the like) would follow.
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Old 03-08-2017, 08:58 PM   #71
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It really is something.

Here a guy goes on a FA board, a place where his admiration is supposed to be accepted and encouraged, and he meets a wall of criticism and condemnation.

Oh, there's plenty of other advice on what to do and how to do it, which he also asked for. It's all offered in the vein of, "You don't know what the hell you're doing"--which admittedly he copped to some as well. That advice generally conforms to the almost completely unuseful truisms that he should be tactful and that if he isn't the other person might feel uncomfortable. Well, duh.

But the guy can't get any positive support for wanting to do nothing but extol someone for being beautiful and sexually appealing. No one even tells him the message that conceptually he should be able to, that there's nothing wrong with his preference, to embrace fat admiration.

And that *gasp* a woman should have the grace to accept admiration and not keep a man under the constant tyranny of her insecurities--and in the end stamp him and his admiration as deviant and oppressive.

Which is something he's suffered from most of his life.

Shame.

TwoSwords, the answer is, within the bounds of tact and reasonable consideration of another person, you should be able to. The people here should be encouraging you to, and should be holding women to a standard of reasonable grace, flexibility, openness and support for others, and acceptance, which are ideals that you'll find in the basic code of conduct for these boards.

Rather than chaining you to the whims of the FA-shaming ninnies.
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Old 03-08-2017, 10:09 PM   #72
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...a woman should have the grace to accept admiration and not keep a man under the constant tyranny of her insecurities--and in the end stamp him and his admiration as deviant and oppressive



So you're single, then?

Christ on a crutch.


Good on you for managing to post this just before International Women's Day ended.

Last edited by FreeThinker; 03-08-2017 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Removed snark. Yes, removed.
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Old 03-08-2017, 10:17 PM   #73
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TwoSwords, I'm afraid I don't think I can help you.

Advice has been offered and rejected, albeit politely and in an entertaining fashion.

I wish you luck in figuring this out.
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:00 PM   #74
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I belong to at least five groups that it's still considered acceptable to discriminate against in society.
Intriguing. What are the groups?
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Old 03-08-2017, 11:13 PM   #75
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Compliments are not a bad thing and yes girls do like them but not every day from the same guy.
I have had that happen too and after week or so it gets creepy.

I have tried to help but it looks like I am no help so good luck.
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