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Old 12-28-2017, 05:13 AM   #26
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This one is fairly brief, and all of it is basic to what we were discussing before, so here we go...

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
If the "natural body shape" (#12) involves someone reaching a BMI of 60 or more, there have already been numerous studies done that shows an improvement in health outcomes following reduction in BMI. But somehow those studies (many of which are available on Medscape) are either invisible to you from your corner of the interwebs or you discount them entirely for your own reasons.
Right. There are good reasons to doubt the validity of many of those studies, and as I said in my last reply, those reasons are as follows.

1. Too many of them merely establish correlations, and expect people to agree with the assumptions that they make, in interpreting what those correlations imply.
2. Too many studies proclaim results relevant to weight loss, without addressing whether said results could be due to other factors, by specifically studying those whose weight loss did not coincide with an increase in other healthy behaviors.
3. Too few of them make allowances for genetic factors in the results, or allow for the possibility that some slight trends in the results may be due to mere coincidence, instead interpreting a 2-point, on-paper "risk" spike in some group of people as a sign that everyone must belong to another group.
4. Too many studies use inadequate, or misleading terms to warp the results of their study, but don't go out of their way to reveal this to the general public.
5. Too many studies are presented to the public only as a final graph or statistic, with the fat-hostile media providing the interpretation.
6. In short, too many studies treat mere statistics as if they were facts, but as Samuel Clemens rightly saw, statistics are just another way to lie and not get caught, unless they're based on something actual. Are they?

In order to understand whether a specific study has something wrong with it, you need to actually read about it; the terms of the experiments, and how the men did their research. What kinds of people did they bring in? What was the question they were trying to answer? Who paid for the study to be done? Of course, all of this information matters to a person who's concerned with learning the truth, but the general public, who mistakenly trust these snake oil salesmen, masquerading as scientists, doesn't get this information from them directly, and for a variety of reasons, can't afford to find it for themselves.

Now, you could, of course, settle the matter by telling me which study shows any of these things, and pointing out that the study was impartial, able to discount other, alternative explanations of its raw data, etc, but you haven't done that, and until you do, no argument is adequate. It does no one any good to tell a person "Just read hundreds of pages of propaganda, and then you'll see!" It is not my job to present the evidence to support the positions of my opponents. That's not how dialogue or debates work. Each person presents evidence to support their own position.

Also, I'm a bit confused by your reaction. You'd think you'd want good reasons to think your feelings are evil; not just a bunch of charts and graphs with no context.

As the premature judgments against the health of salt and saturated fats show, statistics in the 20th and 21st centuries have, at best, a spotty history. I hope you'll come to understand this one day.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Likewise for number 14. Numerous studies exist to show improvements in income or career positions following weight loss. This is unfortunately due to the formerly fatter person better fitting with the lookism based prejudices of their peers, coworkers or employer.
So at the end of the day, what you're saying is that giving in to peer pressure makes you better off, if you can get some money out of the deal?

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
"Prettier" (#13) is an exceptionally subjective assessment. At most all that can be done is to say the majority of people find someone of a more average BMI to be more attractive than someone with a higher BMI.
No. That's not all that can be said. Yes, "pretty" is subjectively-perceptible, but that doesn't mean it isn't real. There's a whole philosophy of aesthetics to address on this point. Yes, it's a complex and interesting topic, but that doesn't make it impossible to learn about, any more than it's impossible to learn that many statisticians are trying to bamboozle you with fake science.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
As for #15, intense dislike of a status quo can be a great motivator to make changes. Most of my friends that had WLS cited their dislike of staying fat as their reason to risk their life on the OR table.
But the question was whether it encouraged them to succeed in losing weight.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
The studies show there are typically two approaches that result in significant maintenance of weight loss for over five years. Unfortunately the leading candidate is bariatric surgery. The other is slow weight loss achieved by significant lifestyle changes in composition and quantity of food intake as well as incorporation of purposeful exercise. The surgery usually adds in new co-morbidities the patient didn't have before surgery. The latter approach doesn't.
You're not answering my question, which, remember, was "What evidence is there that most people who lose weight in these manners manage to keep it off for more than 5 years?"

Yes, there are common methods used by those who belong to that category of people who lose weight and keep it off. My question was to do with how large that category is. How many of these people following commonly-prescribed methods of weight loss succeed, vs how many fail.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Again, many report increased happiness with weight loss. Not all, but a significant percentage. This again comes from fitting with the societally acceptable "lookism" standards.
Again, where did you get this percentage from? (For that matter, what percentage? 16%? 75%? 90%? Please try to give me something to work with here.)

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Many of our foundation arguments from before 1999 have been either successfully challenged or used against us since the early 2000's. One of the more successful tactics was to transition the discussion away from the social sciences/philosophical tact you appear to be trying to pursue. Feel free to continue on that path since that seems to represent your skillset. But don't be surprised if you find yourself a couple of decades into your approach and only minor wins to claim.
Philosophy is the foundation point of all other knowledge, so steering away from it is a recipe for disaster. People who want to be ignorant of the truth will be ignorant of the truth, whether I like it or not. However, that doesn't mean I'm not right.

P.S.: Lest you claim that this is not the case, take note of how miserably the fat acceptance "movement" has failed, and then try to tell me it hasn't been a total disaster. Clearly, it has, so it seems to me that embracing logically-stronger tactics is something you'd want to do.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
The real battle is based on objective hard data that can be duplicated from a sound Design-Of-Experiment, not subjective feelings. I recommend getting a few hundred (or more) papers and articles under your belt to come up to speed on current medical knowledge in the field of obesity. Medscape is a good place to start if you don't have access to a library with medical periodicals like New England Journal of Medicine or the Lancet.
None of my arguments have been based on how I feel. If you want to challenge anything I've said, by all means, do so, but so far, all I've heard is a lot of punting to vague "studies" and "statistics," and I just sort of have to take your word for it that they exist, are being reported properly, imply what they say they do, and were conducted responsibly. Sorry, but no. If someone wants to convince me, they need to do better than just asking me to take their word for it. They've got to actually present some argument or evidence to support their position. Just something. And so far, I haven't seen anything presented.

P.S.: I can sort of understand being a little uncritical in your approach to a given topic. I get that some people really, really want to trust that "researchers" know what they're talking about, so when the main stream follows a certain point, I can sort of forgive people who also follow that point, even when a careful examination of the evidence shows it to be badly-supported, or even just flat-out wrong.

However, I felt no sympathy at all after you brought up BMI, and I don't understand how you could make this kind of mistake, if you really study the topic as you say you do. Your statements about BMI (along with any other statement claiming that BMI has any value in determining overall health) have been soundly debunked in mainstream publications on science and medicine. These debunkings are truly easy to find (I found no less than five through googling "BMI inadequate" in less than a minute, then following the links to the source material for those articles.) Those who still cite BMI as a reliable way of guaging health are internet fat-hate groups, inexperienced trolls, and other people whose scientific data is severely outdated, because the truth doesn't serve their purposes.

P.P.S.: When I say that none of my arguments are based on how I feel, I don't mean that I don't have any feelings related to these issues. I obviously do. However, my feelings come into play after I learn the truth about something, and are mainly related to the question "How will I deal with these feelings, on the basis of this information?" For me, if any of what you said about fatness were provable, I suppose I'd end up living on a mountain somewhere, as far away from all human contact as possible, but as I said, I don't think you've presented sufficient evidence to justify arriving at that conclusion.
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
You've basically chronicled what I've been saying for the past couple of years. The Fat Acceptance movement is over. It was killed by several issues, from the faux "size diversity" movement as well as the number of fat people who've had WLS and don't believe they need fat acceptance anymore (even though they may be fat enough to still qualify for another WLS). And the extremely harsh reality of physiology as fat people get older continues to thin our ranks.

As for finding support for fat people, fat acceptance, or Fat Admirers on the anti-social media websites like Facebook, Reddit, et al, that's a fools errand. For that is where the villagers with torches and pitchforks reside, ready to show non-conformists like us the way to the True Path of Enlightenment.

I'm sorry you and so many others missed the golden age of Fat Acceptance. It was such an uplifting time, so full of promise for the future.

I think the online communities have been going downhill since the old BBS days. As the technological bar for entry into computers was lowered, more mouth breathing knuckle draggers were able to go online to share their brilliant thoughts with us. Now every idiot with a smartphone attacks us from all sides.

While you may see the situation as a "Got mine, so forget you" attitude, you overlook several issues. First is several of us have been fighting the good fight for well over thirty years. We've dropped several thousand dollars on the fight over the years. And this is a fight that takes a lot of very smart people working together to gain any progress towards fat acceptance. But we'd no longer be starting from the easy origin we had back in 1969. The world has changed and many of our old talking points have been disproven or accommodations have been made.

And speaking as an old timer, I sometimes wonder what I've wrought. As much as I love how a SSBBW looks, I appreciate the costs to her. Beauty measured by the pound carries a heavy weight to the bearer. It's why I advise only those who receive their own sexual gratification from being fat to gain or maintain supersize status.
VERY interesting. I don't think fat acceptance is dead, BUT the concept of health at any size is probably dead. It is hard to argue for similar outcomes for super sized people (BMW >> 50), based on both the statistical evidence as well as the overwhelming anecdotal experience. Personally, I was GUTTED by the news of Catherine Oakes (Cat) and Debbi Thomas having passed in recent months. The situation of others such as Big Cutie Summer reinforce the idea that the odds of 'premature death' at high BMI is more likely than not

The good news: moderate overweight/obesity may NOT be associated with reduced life expectancy, although quality of life is a whole other issue. The best evidence we have is "research led by Katherine Flegal, a distinguished epidemiologist from the National Centre for Health Statistics at the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention in Maryland, US"http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...k-8434743.html

In particular, low waist to hip ratios seem to be associated with better health outcomes - so pears rule (my wife is an apple ).

I agree with HereticFA that SSBBW status is not to be treaded on lightly.

FA guilt - oh my
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Old 12-29-2017, 03:18 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waldo View Post
VERY interesting. I don't think fat acceptance is dead, BUT the concept of health at any size is probably dead. It is hard to argue for similar outcomes for super sized people (BMW >> 50), based on both the statistical evidence as well as the overwhelming anecdotal experience. Personally, I was GUTTED by the news of Catherine Oakes (Cat) and Debbi Thomas having passed in recent months. The situation of others such as Big Cutie Summer reinforce the idea that the odds of 'premature death' at high BMI is more likely than not

The good news: moderate overweight/obesity may NOT be associated with reduced life expectancy, although quality of life is a whole other issue. The best evidence we have is "research led by Katherine Flegal, a distinguished epidemiologist from the National Centre for Health Statistics at the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention in Maryland, US"http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...k-8434743.html

I agree with HereticFA that SSBBW status is not to be treaded on lightly.
I assure you, I take fat people of all stripes very seriously. I just don't accept statistics or anecdotal evidence as methods of proof, and after all the times I've felt betrayed and disheartened by other people hating fatness, or treating it disrespectfully, or abandoning it, or otherwise being anything but delighted and reverent towards it; cherishing it, like all other things of surpassing goodness, I will question my conclusions on this, only if I see real proof that they're wrong. Real proof comes in four varieties. Logical proofs (deductive and inductive,) mathematical proofs, scientific proofs and perceptible proofs. Since a connection between fatness and mortality is not perceptible with our normal senses, we must rely on one of the first 3, probably numbers 1 or 3, since numbers alone seem unlikely to give us this data. So, is there some logical argument to indicate that fatness causes poor health, or is it not more likely that the reverse is true? Is there any actual, scientific proof that fatness is the deciding factor in health outcomes, or are there other factors, where the blame is to be more rightly placed?

The stakes, for me, could not be higher, and my entire life's structure will hinge on this point, so I'm strongly motivated to learn the actual truth about this. Am I going to be offered some hope in this life, or do I need to wait for the next with patience and silence?

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Originally Posted by waldo View Post
FA guilt - oh my
I refuse to feel guilty about something which I don't control, can't help, and have no alternative to.
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Old 12-29-2017, 08:11 AM   #29
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Statistics don't guarantee individual outcomes. My grandmother was of SSBBW size for nearly my whole life, she lived until her late 80's. To an outside observer just looking at visuals she shrank continuously the last decade of her life until she died at an average size. Her mother was very large and her mother's mother was very large (back when very large women were a lot rarer.) So maybe she had something genetically predisposing her to being large, maybe for her as an individual being so large wasn't that far outside the realm of normal and it wasn't as bad health wise as for someone else, especially as it related to metabolic problems and life expectancy. She had skeletal problems though, hip problems and knee problems for as far back as I can remember.

My wife is currently teetering on the edge of the SSBBW threshold. She's been across it a few times in the past, pretty far across at one point. She loses a ton of weight from childbirth, we have 2 perfect handsome little boys and she lost somewhere around 70 pounds in the space of months after giving birth to each one. She wants another one, we're working on it. I worry about her health, she has back pain (requiring cortisone shots,) she has foot pain, she's had gestational diabetes with both pregnancies. I struggle with some of the same issues I think you're struggling with.

I'm honest with her. "Yes I'm more attracted and sexually excited when you're bigger" I tell her, "I will always be devoted to you if you lose weight or not, whether you're 90 pounds or 900 pounds."

As far as assholes go, well there will always be assholes. They think they can justify being dicks to fat people by citing statistics. No, tearing someone down to make yourself feel better is being an asshole no matter how you slice it. I'll always call them on it. Fat people don't cost more in medical costs as every study that measures costs over a lifetime shows. Fat people make less money. Yeah, so do short people, the world is full of shallow fucks. Fat people hurt economic production with more sick days. Oh I'm sorry, did we suddenly stop living in a capitalist society where any particular individual's relationship with their employer is none of your fucking business?
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:24 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mack27 View Post
Statistics don't guarantee individual outcomes. My grandmother was of SSBBW size for nearly my whole life, she lived until her late 80's. To an outside observer just looking at visuals she shrank continuously the last decade of her life until she died at an average size. Her mother was very large and her mother's mother was very large (back when very large women were a lot rarer.) So maybe she had something genetically predisposing her to being large, maybe for her as an individual being so large wasn't that far outside the realm of normal and it wasn't as bad health wise as for someone else, especially as it related to metabolic problems and life expectancy. She had skeletal problems though, hip problems and knee problems for as far back as I can remember.
Exactly. There are many possible explanations for why one fat person may experience medical issues, and another not. I tend towards the "refined sugar" explanation myself.

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Originally Posted by Mack27 View Post
My wife is currently teetering on the edge of the SSBBW threshold. She's been across it a few times in the past, pretty far across at one point. She loses a ton of weight from childbirth, we have 2 perfect handsome little boys and she lost somewhere around 70 pounds in the space of months after giving birth to each one. She wants another one, we're working on it. I worry about her health, she has back pain (requiring cortisone shots,) she has foot pain, she's had gestational diabetes with both pregnancies. I struggle with some of the same issues I think you're struggling with.
My mother suffers from back, foot and leg pain, and my younger brother's wife suffers from diabetes during pregnancy. Neither is elderly (my mother is middle aged, but my brother's wife is in her prime still,) and neither one is even remotely fat, so yeah. It's pretty clear to me that a lot of these problems would exist, even without fatness. I think a lot of people (doctors and patients alike,) see a medical problem, see that a person is fat, and blame the problem on the fatness, because it's easier than learning what really caused it. (And it is much, much easier. Biology is a complex topic, and we don't understand it as well as we'd like to.)

It's like I've said before. Unless you're talking about the board game, "risk" isn't real. It's only an estimate.

P.S.: I love your replies, by the way.
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Old 12-29-2017, 06:28 PM   #31
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Not that I want this discussion to turn into perceptions of health of fat people (because the rest of the thread is fascinating in many ways), but I am a big proponent of contemporary research that being fat isn't as unhealthy as one would think. I constantly look for studies that support this, and while it takes some work, the reality is that most of those studies are blown off as "pseudo science", despite the fact that some of the research comes not only from some quality research institutions, but from all areas of the world. The problem is that it's so revolutionary that most people simply blow it off as fat people trying to convince themselves that being fat is okay (which it should be).

And for this reason alone (there are others as well), we need fat acceptance, and while I agree doesn'e exist as we knew it when Bill Fabrey created NAAFA back in 1969, is probably needed now more than ever, thanks to trolls & internet bullies that still bleed over into real life.
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Old 12-29-2017, 06:47 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
Not that I want this discussion to turn into perceptions of health of fat people (because the rest of the thread is fascinating in many ways), but I am a big proponent of contemporary research that being fat isn't as unhealthy as one would think. I constantly look for studies that support this, and while it takes some work, the reality is that most of those studies are blown off as "pseudo science", despite the fact that some of the research comes not only from some quality research institutions, but from all areas of the world. The problem is that it's so revolutionary that most people simply blow it off as fat people trying to convince themselves that being fat is okay (which it should be).
I have seen a lot of that (being a research guy myself,) and another thing I've seen with regard to those studies is great, big, heaping helpings of "moving the target." A scientist will release a study, challenging the common conceptions about fatness, and right away, someone will pipe in "We shouldn't take this to mean we should sit around eating bonbons all day!"

Nothing about the study said that we should, and by shifting the topic off of fatness, and onto eating habits, the mainstream scientist can look as though they're right, without actually challenging anything that the study showed.

The problem is that the general public is still laboring under the popular-level misconception that eating habits and weight are one and the same issue, and they are not. By moving the target in this way, these scientists only encourage this misconception to continue, contributing to further ignorance of these topics, which translates into more suffering of innocent people just trying to live their lives on the ground.

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Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
And for this reason alone (there are others as well), we need fat acceptance, and while I agree doesn'e exist as we knew it when Bill Fabrey created NAAFA back in 1969, is probably needed now more than ever, thanks to trolls & internet bullies that still bleed over into real life.
Bingo.
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Old 12-30-2017, 02:37 PM   #33
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I assure you, I take fat people of all stripes very seriously. I just don't accept statistics or anecdotal evidence as methods of proof, and after all the times I've felt betrayed and disheartened by other people hating fatness, or treating it disrespectfully, or abandoning it, or otherwise being anything but delighted and reverent towards it; cherishing it, like all other things of surpassing goodness, I will question my conclusions on this, only if I see real proof that they're wrong. Real proof comes in four varieties. Logical proofs (deductive and inductive,) mathematical proofs, scientific proofs and perceptible proofs. Since a connection between fatness and mortality is not perceptible with our normal senses, we must rely on one of the first 3, probably numbers 1 or 3, since numbers alone seem unlikely to give us this data. So, is there some logical argument to indicate that fatness causes poor health, or is it not more likely that the reverse is true? Is there any actual, scientific proof that fatness is the deciding factor in health outcomes, or are there other factors, where the blame is to be more rightly placed?

The stakes, for me, could not be higher, and my entire life's structure will hinge on this point, so I'm strongly motivated to learn the actual truth about this. Am I going to be offered some hope in this life, or do I need to wait for the next with patience and silence?

I refuse to feel guilty about something which I don't control, can't help, and have no alternative to.
The anecdotal evidence for those in the extreme supersized weight range is pretty overwhelming. And as far as quality of life, it is hard for any rational person to argue that being ‘super-sized’ doesn't have a major effect.

I certainly agree about the chasm between correlation and causation regarding fatness and health outcomes. There are so many other confounding factors that may be involved in the health of fat people. One of the more important ones is level of physical activity that tends to go down as weight goes up. I recall a study that was released a few years back where they showed moderately overweight people who exercised regularly had statistically better health outcomes than thin people who never worked out. A potential flaw there might have been using BMI only to categorize the people and so you could have some high BMI/'normal' body fat (muscle-bound) people making that group seem 'healthier'. I also think the damage done by yo-yo dieting needs to be considered – and again I believe at least one study showed people who had a more stable high weight tended to be better off than those who had large fluctuations over the years. Fat people also are more likely to be stressed due to discrimination, and we know that constant stress/anxiety is bad for your long-term health.
As far as the ‘FA guilt’, for me it is seeing numerous women who had done BBW modelling or porn and who I had lusted over now dying in their 40s and 50s. But you are right that we don’t consciously choose to find these SSBBW attractive and we have no direct effect on their lives. I guess it is only when it is your own significant other and potentially weight-related health issues that we really need to ‘check ourselves’.

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……………………….As far as assholes go, well there will always be assholes. They think they can justify being dicks to fat people by citing statistics. No, tearing someone down to make yourself feel better is being an asshole no matter how you slice it. I'll always call them on it. Fat people don't cost more in medical costs as every study that measures costs over a lifetime shows. Fat people make less money. Yeah, so do short people, the world is full of shallow fucks. Fat people hurt economic production with more sick days. Oh I'm sorry, did we suddenly stop living in a capitalist society where any particular individual's relationship with their employer is none of your fucking business?
Seems that issue about fat people being unhealthy and costing the health care system more is one that gets trotted out more and more. But if fat people are also not living as long and not suffering the debilitating diseases of old age like Alzheimers as frequently, I can see it balancing out. One of the problems we have is the growing number of elderly which is straining the Medicare and SS pension programs. So you could argue that fat people are helping to partially mitigate that issue by having shorter average lifespans. Of course when it is your own loved one’s life (or your own), no one is going to think that way.

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Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
Not that I want this discussion to turn into perceptions of health of fat people (because the rest of the thread is fascinating in many ways), but I am a big proponent of contemporary research that being fat isn't as unhealthy as one would think. I constantly look for studies that support this, and while it takes some work, the reality is that most of those studies are blown off as "pseudo science", despite the fact that some of the research comes not only from some quality research institutions, but from all areas of the world. The problem is that it's so revolutionary that most people simply blow it off as fat people trying to convince themselves that being fat is okay (which it should be).

And for this reason alone (there are others as well), we need fat acceptance, and while I agree doesn't exist as we knew it when Bill Fabrey created NAAFA back in 1969, is probably needed now more than ever, thanks to trolls & internet bullies that still bleed over into real life.
It seems this perception of fat people (even a little bit fat) automatically being unhealthy is absolutely the biggest hurdle in the current lack of traction for fat acceptance. So I think it really does not derail this thread to address the issue. Maybe one of the things that hurt fat acceptance back when it was on the verge of really taking hold in the ‘80s/’90s was a tendency of the ‘movement’ to be too dismissive of the health implications of obesity.
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Old 12-31-2017, 03:42 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by waldo View Post
The anecdotal evidence for those in the extreme supersized weight range is pretty overwhelming. And as far as quality of life, it is hard for any rational person to argue that being ‘super-sized’ doesn't have a major effect.
Anecdotal evidence is a funny thing, because, you see, people only really report the cases where something bad happens. In the same way that you rarely read the newspaper headline "Good, hardworking people do their jobs," so you rarely hear about the instances where weight did not strongly effect health, and people were happy together.

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I certainly agree about the chasm between correlation and causation regarding fatness and health outcomes. There are so many other confounding factors that may be involved in the health of fat people. One of the more important ones is level of physical activity that tends to go down as weight goes up. I recall a study that was released a few years back where they showed moderately overweight people who exercised regularly had statistically better health outcomes than thin people who never worked out.
There have been a few studies like this, all of them turning up comparable results. Regular physical activity is most definitely good for you, so long as you don't overdo it, and get some kind of athletics-related injury or something.

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A potential flaw there might have been using BMI only to categorize the people and so you could have some high BMI/'normal' body fat (muscle-bound) people making that group seem 'healthier'. I also think the damage done by yo-yo dieting needs to be considered – and again I believe at least one study showed people who had a more stable high weight tended to be better off than those who had large fluctuations over the years.
It's also been shown that those who lose large amounts of weight over a relatively-short time are actually in an even higher risk category than the obese, for whatever that's worth.

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Fat people also are more likely to be stressed due to discrimination, and we know that constant stress/anxiety is bad for your long-term health.
From what I've seen, the following factors have been shown to be bad for people, in terms of being responsible for health issues usually associated with obesity (with the first on this list being the ones that have the most proof behind them.)

Trans fats (Obviously)
Lack of exercise
Excessive intake of refined sugars
Yo-yo dieting
High-Fructose Corn Syrup
Stress
Lack of Sleep
Not enough intake of healthy fats

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As far as the ‘FA guilt’, for me it is seeing numerous women who had done BBW modelling or porn and who I had lusted over now dying in their 40s and 50s. But you are right that we don’t consciously choose to find these SSBBW attractive and we have no direct effect on their lives. I guess it is only when it is your own significant other and potentially weight-related health issues that we really need to ‘check ourselves’.
While it's true that I had no direct effect on the life of any BBW Model (that I'm aware of,) let's suppose, for a moment, that I had; that I'd been spending time with one of them to talk about our mutual feelings and developed a relationship. Now, many things might result from this. She might learn to hate the attention because I like the way she looks, and become more stressed, and even more stressed when I tell her that I don't want to stress her out. She might feel pleased and relieved over having someone finally tell her that she's good, beautiful and wanted in their lives; desired and not merely tolerated. Who knows? In the end, so long as I don't forget about her wellbeing in all this, my role in the relationship being an attempt to help her make peace with herself, I am not to be blamed for what follows from that. I'm not a feeder, and I'm not going to insist on her eating truckloads of sweets all the time, or doing other things I know are bad for her. I just think she's pretty, and I want to be able to appreciate that, and, like her, to be told that I'm good, wanted and beautiful, for all that. As I see it, there's nothing there to feel guilty about in the only kind of relationship I could deal with.

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Seems that issue about fat people being unhealthy and costing the health care system more is one that gets trotted out more and more. But if fat people are also not living as long and not suffering the debilitating diseases of old age like Alzheimers as frequently, I can see it balancing out. One of the problems we have is the growing number of elderly which is straining the Medicare and SS pension programs. So you could argue that fat people are helping to partially mitigate that issue by having shorter average lifespans. Of course when it is your own loved one’s life (or your own), no one is going to think that way.
It's true. Nobody thinks of their own lifespan or the lifespan of their loved ones as a mere economic factor, though I once didn't have much appreciation of a long life for myself. It's hard to desire another 50-60 years when you're feeling miserable.

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It seems this perception of fat people (even a little bit fat) automatically being unhealthy is absolutely the biggest hurdle in the current lack of traction for fat acceptance. So I think it really does not derail this thread to address the issue. Maybe one of the things that hurt fat acceptance back when it was on the verge of really taking hold in the ‘80s/’90s was a tendency of the ‘movement’ to be too dismissive of the health implications of obesity.
I feel the so-called health "implications" should be addressed and disproven, or at least shown to be foundationless, rather than being merely dismissed, so yes; in general I agree.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:33 AM   #35
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Not so much a "study", but it's uplifting to see someone from the sciences discuss the topic intelligently, adding personal experience.

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Old 12-31-2017, 09:57 AM   #36
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Not so much a "study", but it's uplifting to see someone from the sciences discuss the topic intelligently, adding personal experience.
That was a good TED talk. It quickly covers the more detailed research that's been done into obesity issues over the last few decades.

There is one thing I would challenge her on in regards to "Mindful Eating" (or intuitive eating, as others have labeled it). It's the recommendation to "stop eating when you're full". Unfortunately that signal is missing from so many of us (for a variety of reasons). For many of us, all we have left is the signal to stop eating before we overstretch our stomachs and do damage. I recommend to instead stop eating when you're no longer hungry. That's a much lower threshold in quantity and caloric content.

One of the most significant things I noticed after being involved in the Fat Acceptance movement for a few years (decades ago) was how many of us had very significant emotional stressors when growing up. One of which was the extremely significant number of the women that were victims of sexual abuse, easily over 50% that I knew personally. Others had violent family members or bullies in their lives. Most of the people tended to gain weight after their period of emotionally stressful events. Their weight setpoint had been moved upwards. In most all cases they tended to eat until they were unable to eat any more. Only then did they stop eating. I suspect they were misinterpreting their body's natural signal of satiety due to the emotional "noise" of their previous stressors. This is much like how a person can develop loss of hearing and tinnitus after hearing loud music at a concert.
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:37 AM   #37
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I just don't accept statistics or anecdotal evidence as methods of proof
So, you not only want your draw your own conclusions, but you want your own facts as well since you said earlier that you completely discount all the existing scientific studies contained within Medscape, NIH, NAS, et al due to their use of statistics. No health related study will be complete without statistics. (And someone's anecdotal evidence is simply an uncollected datapoint still waiting for the right study or as seed for a hypothesis.)

You would be much more helpful if you cited studies and specific points within those studies where you believed there were problems. But to fully disregard all the studies for the reasons you've stated makes it hard to take you seriously.

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and after all the times I've felt betrayed and disheartened by other people hating fatness, or treating it disrespectfully, or abandoning it, or otherwise being anything but delighted and reverent towards it; cherishing it, like all other things of surpassing goodness,
I hope you can achieve your weight gain goals you alluded to in earlier posts. Maybe then you will better understand why people's reactions to and acceptance of fatness is as varied as their personal experiences and health outcomes.

I'd like to see it as no different from any other physicality. But our society already fetishizes pretty faces and height, so maybe that's the basis for society's negative views of FA's. (Being fat makes a person look shorter and will alter the aspects of a face.)

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I will question my conclusions on this, only if I see real proof that they're wrong. Real proof comes in four varieties. Logical proofs (deductive and inductive,) mathematical proofs, scientific proofs and perceptible proofs.
You can't have scientific proofs without the use of statistics if you're dealing with populations. If you're the really the "research guy" you claim to be, you should know that. As for the strict application of "logic" as an arbiter of proof, at best that's simply the basis for the formation of a hypothesis. But without supplementing that hypothesis with data and statistical analysis, all you've done is write high level fiction constrained by your prejudices and your imagination.
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Since a connection between fatness and mortality is not perceptible with our normal senses, we must rely on one of the first 3, probably numbers 1 or 3, since numbers alone seem unlikely to give us this data. So, is there some logical argument to indicate that fatness causes poor health, or is it not more likely that the reverse is true? Is there any actual, scientific proof that fatness is the deciding factor in health outcomes, or are there other factors, where the blame is to be more rightly placed?
We can identify disease and death with at least two of our senses so your statement is demonstrably wrong. But unlike you, I'll not discard the rest of your statement due to the incorrectness but address it.

In some medical issues, specifically diabetes, sufficient weight loss has been shown to relieve the disease. The only variables are what constitutes "sufficient weight loss" and how much relief can occur. In my wife it took losing over 150 lbs to see noticeable relief. But she had very brittle diabetes and was insulin dependent, with wild swings in BG levels that were very hard to regulate. Now with a 220 lb weight loss she's able to regulate her BG level pretty well. Others fared much better with less than a 100 pound weight loss necessary to get off oral meds for their diabetes.

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The stakes, for me, could not be higher, and my entire life's structure will hinge on this point, so I'm strongly motivated to learn the actual truth about this. Am I going to be offered some hope in this life, or do I need to wait for the next with patience and silence?
So we finally reach the reason for your desperation to maintain your cognitive dissonance. I was once where you are. And I'll admit it's been a peculiar feeling having this discussion with you since some of your points were nearly identical to those I made decades ago. It's been like arguing with my younger self. But in the end, the actual truth is that for a significant percentage of the people you find the most attractive, you will live to witness their demise. Some may be lovers or friends, others will be faces you remember from fat related events or online communities. The one thing you notice is that they all died early, over twenty years earlier than the average age of 78 or so.


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I refuse to feel guilty about something which I don't control, can't help, and have no alternative to.
Or you could just accept that you are attracted to an aspect of human physiology that has been shown to cause many people with those characteristics of extremely elevated avoirdupois to have poor health outcomes. No guilt is necessary as long as you don't encourage it to someone's detriment.

I personally find a big, round "moon face" to be very attractive. But I also know that's a sign of Cushing's Syndrome. It doesn't stop my preference. But it helps me understand what other issues that person may be experiencing. (It also helped me notice that so many WLS post-ops still had their moon face after weight loss, indicating the underlying issue that made them fat hadn't really been addressed and may explain some of their continued health problems.)
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Old 01-01-2018, 04:04 AM   #38
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Well, I've certainly been enjoying this debate, and I hope you have as well. Now, it's pretty obvious that this discussion has become one about evidence, but before I go back to look at the evidence challenges that I put forth, and see how they've fared, I want to correct one major misconception that I've noticed cropping up throughout this last reply.

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But to fully disregard all the studies for the reasons you've stated makes it hard to take you seriously.
It seems that, for some reason, you think that my response indicates that I'm disregarding a large number of studies when I make my determinations. However, no. That's incorrect. I will disregard an individual study if it makes a clear, logical mistake, and I provided a list of common mistakes that such studies make.

However, up to now, I have not discounted the contents of any studies, because it hasn't been necessary to. You simply haven't presented any. All you did was point me in the general direction of a huge library, then tell me to find it myself, and that's simply not how this works. If you have a claim that you want to advance, the burden of proving that claim falls on you; not me. If you have found even one study that provides clear evidence of any of the things you've said, well, go ahead and tell me about it. Who knows? I might agree. We'll never know whether I'll consider the evidence sound or not, unless some is actually presented.

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You would be much more helpful if you cited studies and specific points within those studies where you believed there were problems.
Because that would free you from having to do the work of supporting your own position, in theory. However, I do my own research and support my own position, and normally, it's the requirement of each person to do likewise. So, when you say...

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Or you could just accept that you are attracted to an aspect of human physiology that has been shown to cause many people with those characteristics of extremely elevated avoirdupois to have poor health outcomes.
Of course I could. That option is entirely open to me, except that this has not, in fact, been shown. If it were shown, that's probably the tack I'd take, but it hasn't been.

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So, you not only want your draw your own conclusions, but you want your own facts as well since you said earlier that you completely discount all the existing scientific studies contained within Medscape, NIH, NAS, et al due to their use of statistics.
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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
No health related study will be complete without statistics. (And someone's anecdotal evidence is simply an uncollected datapoint still waiting for the right study or as seed for a hypothesis.)
When you use the term "your own facts," you seem not to be understanding my objections to certain fact-claims. My point wasn't that the use of statistics was the problem, but rather, that statistics themselves are not facts. Facts are proven truths, and those cannot be gleaned through mere statistics, without context or proper interpretation.

As far as anecdotal evidence being an uncollected datapoint, I certainly agree. That's why I don't consider it strong evidence either, by itself.

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You can't have scientific proofs without the use of statistics if you're dealing with populations.
In point of fact, science can't deal with "populations," at all, because a "population" is not a real thing. It's only a large collection of individual people. Science can study each member of a group of people, and from that, gather data, which can later be used to draw logical conclusions, but to make assumptions about an abstract thing like a "population" on the basis of an unrelated field like science is not, itself, science.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
As for the strict application of "logic" as an arbiter of proof, at best that's simply the basis for the formation of a hypothesis. But without supplementing that hypothesis with data and statistical analysis, all you've done is write high level fiction constrained by your prejudices and your imagination.
That's wrong. In fact, it's only incorrect or inadequate logic that leads to falsehoods, and as with science, there are firm rules to govern what makes a syllogism valid, and what makes it invalid (namely, the rules of inference and the logical fallacies.)

By contrast, when science is isolated from logic, there's nothing to stop scientists from gathering data, then making assumptions about what that data implies, which are not, in any way implied by that data. Those who claim they have no need for philosophy are the ones most likely to be deceived by it. For example...

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
We can identify disease and death with at least two of our senses so your statement is demonstrably wrong.
We can identify disease and death, yes. However, it's one thing to identify a dead person, and another to identify why and how they died. The former can be determined by the senses, but the latter requires logical thought, at the very least, scientific study at the most, and even then, what causes one person to die may not be the same cause of another person's death. Frequently, people just assume a cause-and-effect relationship, despite there being no evidence that such a relationship exists, because they've noticed a commonality that they can't otherwise explain. For instance...

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
In some medical issues, specifically diabetes, sufficient weight loss has been shown to relieve the disease. The only variables are what constitutes "sufficient weight loss" and how much relief can occur. In my wife it took losing over 150 lbs to see noticeable relief. But she had very brittle diabetes and was insulin dependent, with wild swings in BG levels that were very hard to regulate. Now with a 220 lb weight loss she's able to regulate her BG level pretty well. Others fared much better with less than a 100 pound weight loss necessary to get off oral meds for their diabetes.
Over a long period of time (and, I presume, healthy activity,) your wife obtained healthier biomarkers. That is a basic piece of scientific data. However, when you say that the healthy biomarkers were caused by her weight loss, you make an unwarranted assumption. As you've said before, scientists still don't know how weight effects health, so unless there's no other factor that could have explained her good health, it's not justified to rush to this conclusion. A while back, I had health issues of a blood pressure-related variety. I made two changes in my behavior; reducing my intake of refined sugars and exercising more, and my biomarkers resolved themselves. Throughout that process, my total weight loss amounted to four much-missed pounds. Yet, my health improved. When you can explain why, we'll be ready to talk about whether the "obesity causes bad health" message is adequate to explain the facts.

Indeed, you seem to acknowledge that there are other, unrelated factors that effect the health of fat people, and which should, therefore, be taken into account, when you say...

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
I personally find a big, round "moon face" to be very attractive. But I also know that's a sign of Cushing's Syndrome. It doesn't stop my preference. But it helps me understand what other issues that person may be experiencing. (It also helped me notice that so many WLS post-ops still had their moon face after weight loss, indicating the underlying issue that made them fat hadn't really been addressed and may explain some of their continued health problems.)
The only problem is that you're not applying this same line of reasoning to the general assumption that fatness causes poor health, in isolation from other factors.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
But in the end, the actual truth is that for a significant percentage of the people you find the most attractive, you will live to witness their demise. Some may be lovers or friends, others will be faces you remember from fat related events or online communities. The one thing you notice is that they all died early, over twenty years earlier than the average age of 78 or so.
"Over 20 years earlier than 78" is 57. I knew a woman at a previous job who was very obese (600 or so pounds,) and over 60 years old. My obese aunt died only recently at the ripe, old age of 80. Therefore, this statement of yours is not "the actual truth," but rather, is a falsehood.

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So we finally reach the reason for your desperation to maintain your cognitive dissonance.
I already gave the reason why I'm choosy in selecting other people's conclusions as valid vs invalid. I believe in objective truth. To accuse me of having ulterior motives for selecting some truths over others is yet another Ad Hominem fallacy.

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I hope you can achieve your weight gain goals you alluded to in earlier posts. Maybe then you will better understand why people's reactions to and acceptance of fatness is as varied as their personal experiences and health outcomes.
Unlikely.

Now, with respect to the 18 challenges I advanced, challenges 1 and 11 are to do with the mistreatment of fat people on the assumption that they are in poor health. I addressed these issues from a moral perspective, and the only responses I can recall were based on incorrect assumptions that my moral concerns were sentimental.

Challenge 3 hasn't been adequately responded to, with the conclusion just sort of being assumed, even in this last reply, and that's only question begging.

On challenges 6 and 7, you basically conceded the point, by admitting that doctors don't know the relationship between fatness and poor health. On challenge 9, you used the term "food addiction" in a way I've never heard it used, to refer to a group of people I've never heard of before.

Challenges 12, 13, 14 and 15 were answered from the incorrect assumption that "fat hate" and "weight loss" are one and the same, and frequently, there were other confusions as well, such as not taking note of the word "succeed" in number 15, so no strong counter-arguments have been advanced against those points.

Challenge 16 was answered only by citing the methods that some people use to keep weight off, which was not an actual answer to the question. Challenge 17 was responded to by a suggestion that people who lose weight feel better afterwards, but no evidence was advanced to support this view.

As for challenges 2, 4, 5, 8, 10 and 18, these have never been responded to in this discussion to any significant degree, and so even if all of my arguments failed, I still think we would have plenty of good reasons to doubt that fatness is the cause of poor health.
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Old 01-01-2018, 04:19 AM   #39
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Not so much a "study", but it's uplifting to see someone from the sciences discuss the topic intelligently, adding personal experience.
Yes. It doesn't cite any studies or examine the methods used to gather this information, but in general, these have been the same findings that my own research has turned up (though I obviously don't agree with her from an aesthetic point of view.)
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:13 AM   #40
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Intentionally or not, you're conflating two very distinct, always contentious, and now somewhat estranged subcultures in Size Acceptance versus Fat Admiration. That used to co-exist pretty well here until, well, a whole bunch of other technological changes (Smart Phones?) brought more of the mainstream fat folks, those not here just for porn, onto other, more widely utilized platforms (Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, Tinder, etc...)

Obvious troll. Is too obvious.
I totally agree with you. Something in the FA community has changed. As have the gainers. I'm an old man myself. I have made a lot of friends from this site. Real life, real time ones. A lot of people from here were at my wedding in 2000 as a matter of fact. I deleted my old account here because of the climate change you speak of. Everything got angry, no one would allow other opinions, and there was a bully culture.
On a whim I created this new account in 2014 and still the same. Now it's 2018 and I see the friction is even stronger.
I remember going to BBW events from Vegas to Dallas to Miami. We could see the change happening. I fear that the damage has been done. We've let politics venture into our community and as with every community that lets politics in. It gets consumed and murdered.
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Old 01-02-2018, 02:56 AM   #41
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I totally agree with you. Something in the FA community has changed. As have the gainers. I'm an old man myself. I have made a lot of friends from this site. Real life, real time ones. A lot of people from here were at my wedding in 2000 as a matter of fact. I deleted my old account here because of the climate change you speak of. Everything got angry, no one would allow other opinions, and there was a bully culture.
On a whim I created this new account in 2014 and still the same. Now it's 2018 and I see the friction is even stronger.
I remember going to BBW events from Vegas to Dallas to Miami. We could see the change happening. I fear that the damage has been done. We've let politics venture into our community and as with every community that lets politics in. It gets consumed and murdered.
Actually, I'm curious about this, since those years that you mention were when I was young and unsure how to deal with my feelings. For this reason, I wasn't really here at the time, and I'm not sure what you, and others, have meant by "politics." Do you mean actual, voting for Republican Vs. Democrat politics, or are you referring to some "leaders" in the community who I've never heard of.

And, as an aside, what relationship does this have with the difficulty of finding a support community that's actually freaking supportive?
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Old 01-03-2018, 01:39 AM   #42
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Actually, I'm curious about this, since those years that you mention were when I was young and unsure how to deal with my feelings. For this reason, I wasn't really here at the time, and I'm not sure what you, and others, have meant by "politics." Do you mean actual, voting for Republican Vs. Democrat politics, or are you referring to some "leaders" in the community who I've never heard of.

And, as an aside, what relationship does this have with the difficulty of finding a support community that's actually freaking supportive?
---
Not really about who or what you vote or voted for. Politics is far more wide spreading than the people in power.
Some things have gone too far in the whole 'acceptance' realm of things. Look, don't kid yourself here TwoSwords. BBW events were always filled with fights and jealousy. SSBBW would scream at women they didn't consider big enough to be SSBBW then you had the BBW and the FA's yelling at the women that had weight loss surgery .. yelling at them when they weren't puking in the bathroom that is. That has always been part of the culture and lifestyle but something took a really strange twist over the last ten years.

All self respect seems to be gone. That's the first thing I notice. It's like this whole 'fat movement' means that caring how you look makes you a poser and not a true member of the 'movement' and that's what I mean by politics.
See it the same way the most popular person in the room sees it or you can bet you're going to get shamed online and in public by your so called peers. Those politics.

Not being ashamed of your body, accepting yourself for who you are.. even wanting to pack on the pounds because you yourself find it comforting and beautiful-- that doesn't mean you parade around in public letting fat hang out all over the place and for the love of God.. take a shower, toss on some make up if you're a woman.. have some self respect.

Then you add up all the real political shit like paying extra for airfare. Weight costs more to transport and why is it so wrong to consider the feelings of the passenger sitting next to the obese person? Why must EVERYONE accept your lifestyle choice but the fat movement person .. the fat activist. They don't have to accept the wants and desires of others.

Not long ago things were different. The women of my generation of The Fat Girl was classy and respectful of others and glowed with self respect.
Catay is one.. not sure if she's still around.
Back in 1999 a lady here fixed my first online photo and for the life of me I can't remember her name. I just remember she was really into x-game athletes -- damn I have her name on the tip of my tongue too. Grrrrrrrr..

Anyway that's what I mean by politics. It's not about who or what you voted for as much as the politics of the 'movement' as it were.
For example my wife is a feminist but she wouldn't be caught dead with this 3rd way feminism that is ruining the world, stopping women from being hired, and ruining lives of innocent people just on their word.

POLITICS
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:08 AM   #43
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Default What?!?

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Originally Posted by AirboatRunner View Post
"..ruining lives of innocent people just on their word."
What 'innocent person's life was 'ruined' as such? By Feminism, of all things. Who and what are you talking about here?
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:15 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by AirboatRunner View Post
See it the same way the most popular person in the room sees it or you can bet you're going to get shamed online and in public by your so called peers. Those politics.
That's unfortunate, but thank you for explaining that to me. It's no wonder I've been so unaccepted, as I never see things the way other people see them. Indeed, if I did, I wouldn't be an FA. Perhaps some people in the movement should stop to consider that. As far as the other things you mention...

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Originally Posted by AirboatRunner View Post
All self respect seems to be gone. That's the first thing I notice. It's like this whole 'fat movement' means that caring how you look makes you a poser and not a true member of the 'movement' and that's what I mean by politics.
If anyone is really serious about working towards the acceptance of fatness, they need to accept all the help they can get without compromising what the movement is about; normalizing fatness.

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Originally Posted by AirboatRunner View Post
Not being ashamed of your body, accepting yourself for who you are.. even wanting to pack on the pounds because you yourself find it comforting and beautiful-- that doesn't mean you parade around in public letting fat hang out all over the place and for the love of God.. take a shower, toss on some make up if you're a woman.. have some self respect.
I'm not sure what you mean by "parade around in public." I believe fat women have a right to go out in public, just like thin women do. If this is a reference to a certain style of dress that no woman should use, then fine, but I don't think it's right to give preferential treatment to thin women in terms of dress, on the basis that they're thin and more preferred. You're still treating fatness as negative, in that case.

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Originally Posted by AirboatRunner View Post
Then you add up all the real political shit like paying extra for airfare. Weight costs more to transport and why is it so wrong to consider the feelings of the passenger sitting next to the obese person? Why must EVERYONE accept your lifestyle choice but the fat movement person .. the fat activist. They don't have to accept the wants and desires of others.
No one needs to supply the desires of others. However, in this case, I do agree with you in general. Every good thing has its price, and that includes fatness on airplanes, though it may be a bit premature to assume anything about the feelings of the person sitting next to the fat person on a plane. I do think that we have to deal with the natural consequences of our state in life, in the same way that we have to deal with the greater challenges of exercising and the like, but also benefit from all that wonderful softness.

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Originally Posted by AirboatRunner View Post
Not long ago things were different. The women of my generation of The Fat Girl was classy and respectful of others and glowed with self respect.
Respect is important. I just don't feel you need to agree with the aesthetics of others in order to be respectful.

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Originally Posted by AirboatRunner View Post
For example my wife is a feminist but she wouldn't be caught dead with this 3rd way feminism that is ruining the world, stopping women from being hired, and ruining lives of innocent people just on their word.
I feel that feminism has done Fat Acceptance no favors in general.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:26 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
What 'innocent person's life was 'ruined' as such? By Feminism, of all things. Who and what are you talking about here?
I can't speak for AirboatRunner.

While I think that "ruined" might not be the best word used to describe it (everyone moves on, regardless of emotional/physical damage), the fact remains that an incredible amount of bullying & harassment went on in the community.

Case in point. Right around 1998-1999 there was a young lady who was very active in the forums who went under the name "Tantalizing Eyes". She contributed to the forums on a regular basis. In late 1999, a dude visited her, and was supposed to be staying at a hotel near her home. Somehow it turned into him demanding that he stay with her, and as I recall, the situation got ugly and the guy was removed by police

She turned to the same forum that she contributed to, in an effort to discuss what happened, and maybe warn other women to be careful. Instead, the "community" turned on her, engaged in a lot of what today would be considered slut shaming, and was essentially chased off the Dimensions site. I can assure you that this was not uncommon.

As someone who ran BBW events, I can assure you that what AirboatRunner has described is true. It's one of the many reasons that I stopped running events in NJ. As a friend who also used to attend events all over the country succinctly stated at the time, "Honestly, I felt much better about myself before I found Fat Acceptance".
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:14 AM   #46
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Default That's not how this works, that's not how ANY of this works...

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"I'm afraid I still don't see what smart phones have to do with people finding support in the midst of bad treatment by others. It hasn't gotten any easier. In fact, as I pointed out, it's harder."
Hmmm....

Have you actually thought about this?

I mean, really, really reflected on it, thinking it all through, all of the various angles and implications?

How much do you actually remember of life before smartphones?

What about the time before that, when WiFi first became so widely available in all of our public spaces (libraries, cafes, etc...)? What about, before even that, the at times gradual shift from dial-up to broadband? Or as dial-up and satellite-based services began to expand yet further and further into yet more rural and remote areas?

(btw, what was it like when you were in grade school and high school, respectively? Do you think it's basically the same as how it was when your parents went to school or when your grandparents were in school? Or do you suppose things have changed, somewhat, more or less? I mean in terms of how things are run, along the lines of stuff student discipline and security, etc...)

Mind you, both Size Acceptance and Fat Admiration-alike, respectively, as distinct subcultures and movements, were up and running well-before all of this. Long-time members of this site, if not to mention its creator, were doing all kinds of stuff, appearing on talk shows, running 'zines, going to workshops and other such events.

Do you really honestly believe that things are more difficult for fat people today than as they might've seemed back then??

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"Fragmented" implies that there are still fragments left, so why am I not seeing them? Why are people not discussing this?"
Because you can't see or won't acknowledge the timber for the forest it once was, doesn't mean it never existed as such or hasn't been reduced through your own fault. Because people aren't talking about this with you doesn't necessarily mean it's not being discussed any which way anymore.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"...all have fragments of fat acceptance in them that I'm not aware of?"
You keep throwing this particular term out there. Again and again. And yet again. Maybe, I guess, because it's of some particular importance, to you. To support you own particular (imagined) narrative.

However, it's not really reflective of how most fat people talk about themselves nowadays. Size Acceptance is still, now, 'a thing.' So is Body Positivity. And so is Fat Admiration.

Conflating all of that, together, under a banner of Fat Acceptance, or whatever else you want to call it, is akin to.....Nevermind. Just, just....don't do it. Even if you're fat yourself. Better to step back from that one a bit.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"....having found a way to hide from scorn ...have decided that other groups of people who are scorned don't deserve their help... a group of people who were (and are) treated with open scorn, who once recognized that they were a persecuted group, and wanted to seek a solution for themselves and other, related persecuted groups, and have basically decided that, as long as they can feel like they're mainstream, nobody else's fate matters.......dodging one's responsibility to those who are still rejected by society, and who still require support and acceptance."
This what people mean when they speak of entitlement, a general attitude of entitlement, like one's somehow entitled to the sympathy and attention and affection and trust of a fat audience; that all fat people, everywhere, should be perfectly happy to rush to their defense, chasing windmills, etc....for the privilege of hearing about how they or their fat gives you some kind of boner. Except, that's not, like, reality, how stuff works out in the real world. Really, nothing works like that out in the real world.

In reality, out in the real world, 1) You're entitled to no-thing.

2) It will tend to be that young people will occupy and take ownership of and protect and defend a space that both takes them in early on and offers them some kind of sustained support. And so, once that space, virtual or otherwise, becomes overrun with (mostly) undesirable elements, it will effectively cease to attract the kinds of numbers of young(er) and new people it practically needs to in order to sustain any kind of ecosystem. It will die off as the older members die-themselves or move on to other things, different phases of life.

As such, this particular kind of challenge is not at all unique to Size Acceptance or Fat Admiration, but has been equally met (more successfully) by many other subcultures or counter-cultural movements and gone to being better, more firmly established and effective for it. Other older members, people with a lot more direct experience in it than I, have spoken about this here and otherwise at length in the past. The practical need to proactively police and protect one's own. To come up with some kind of mutually agreed-upon ground rules or best practices wherever applicable. Both for the greater good and out of some sense of altruism. And to protect a burgeoning sense of community both from within and without.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"The only reason why concerns about fetishists are so common, is that..."
Is how readily some people seem to feel like that's an excuse for just about anything.

So, it's not really about fetishes or fetishists, per se; but more about peoples' behavior, in general, what's deem mostly acceptable versus what's considered universally unacceptable, beyond the pale, so to speak. And, with that, fat people are as much a part of it as anyone else, how they might use whatever baggage they're carrying in order to justify whatever might otherwise not be overlooked. How anyone might try to co-opt some larger, higher purpose for their own base and selfish means.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:20 AM   #47
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Default Oh, for sure, no doubt...

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Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
"...an incredible amount of bullying & harassment went on in the community."
But it's not anything to do with Feminism, really, 3rd Wave or otherwise.

Yet another example of how readily people will co-opt the social currency other others' ideals, if left to their own devices.
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:16 AM   #48
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Default And another thing: It's not all about you...

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Originally Posted by waldo View Post
...BUT the concept of health at any size is probably dead. It is hard to argue for...may NOT be associated with...seem to be associated with...
No. You're wrong. Probably, it just seems that way if you don't really understand the most basic point about precisely what 'the concept' even is, to begin with, just for starters. A hint, it's not anything to do with what you 'associate' this or that with, your 'associations', whatever they may be.

Are you physician? A (licensed) nutritionist? Physical therapist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
"...As for finding support for fat people..on the social media websites like Facebook, Reddit, et al, that's a fools errand. For that is where the villagers with torches and pitchforks reside, ready to show non-conformists like us the way to the True Path of Enlightenment...online communities have been going downhill since the old BBS days. As the technological bar for entry into computers was lowered, more mouth breathing knuckle draggers were able to go online to share their brilliant thoughts with us."
You're wrong as well, have gone soft with age. Yes, there's all kinds of trolls all over social media; but the widening of the base of participation has actually tilted a balance towards more normalcy and decency. I mean, for those communities with the sense and to enact fair and practical moderation. There's thriving Size Acceptance and Fat Admiration based communities on both Reddit and Facebook. There's lots of BBW vloggers on YouTube.

Indeed, the world still turns, but without your help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracii View Post
"Can you define..."
Oh, I see. So, that we lack for a workable (read: airtight) definition for something, it therefore does not exist? Is not 'a problem' we can talk about?

Yeah, that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"I feel that feminism has done Fat Acceptance no favors in general."
You know, I think this is what's really at the root of your problems: Too much of "I feel..." and "I think..." and "my feelings..." and not enough critical thinking and (more objective) self-examination and self-criticism and (practical) analysis. Too much certitude and 'confidence' without enough directly relevant experience and evidence to support it.

C'mon, man, it's time for a paradigm-shift. Start today!
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Old 01-03-2018, 02:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
But it's not anything to do with Feminism, really, 3rd Wave or otherwise.

Yet another example of how readily people will co-opt the social currency other others' ideals, if left to their own devices.
I never said that these incidents occurred because of Feminism. I also say that I have difficulty connecting the dots to arrive at Feminism, though that doesn't mean it absolutely is not true, and I would ask TwoSwords to elaborate on that.

The only connection I can make is that Fat Acceptance has moved to Body Positivity, a movement primarily controlled by women, since the entire concept deals with the judgment of female bodies. That in and of itself may connect it to feminism, but I'd really like to see women participate in this disucssion to give their insight.
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:29 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
How much do you actually remember of life before smartphones?

What about the time before that, when WiFi first became so widely available in all of our public spaces (libraries, cafes, etc...)? What about, before even that, the at times gradual shift from dial-up to broadband? Or as dial-up and satellite-based services began to expand yet further and further into yet more rural and remote areas?
I fail to see the point of these questions.

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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
(btw, what was it like when you were in grade school and high school, respectively? Do you think it's basically the same as how it was when your parents went to school or when your grandparents were in school? Or do you suppose things have changed, somewhat, more or less? I mean in terms of how things are run, along the lines of stuff student discipline and security, etc...)
Absolutely. Students are treated much less responsibly now.

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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Mind you, both Size Acceptance and Fat Admiration-alike, respectively, as distinct subcultures and movements, were up and running well-before all of this.
Neither of which is adequate to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Do you really honestly believe that things are more difficult for fat people today than as they might've seemed back then??
This is a logical fallacy called "Moving the Goalposts." You are attempting to invalidate my points by claiming that the purpose of those points is something other than what it is; namely, lack of difficulty for fat people. That is not the purpose of the points I've made. My purpose was fair treatment for everyone, but especially for fat people and FAs, and I was quite clear about that.

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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Because you can't see or won't acknowledge the timber for the forest it once was, doesn't mean it never existed as such or hasn't been reduced through your own fault. Because people aren't talking about this with you doesn't necessarily mean it's not being discussed any which way anymore.
It sounds like you want to say something here, but don't quite want it badly enough.

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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
You keep throwing this particular term out there. Again and again. And yet again. Maybe, I guess, because it's of some particular importance, to you. To support you own particular (imagined) narrative.
The term "fat acceptance" matters to me because I haven't heard any other terms that describe what it describes adequately. I suppose something like "fatness positivity," or "fatness normalization" would encompass roughly the same territory, but none of the other proposed alternatives would. Both "Size Acceptance" and "Body Positivity" are so general that the intended purpose of normalizing fatness gets lost in the cracks, and as for "Fat Admiration," that's just a description of an inner disposition. It accomplishes nothing socially.

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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
However, it's not really reflective of how most fat people talk about themselves nowadays.
I know. So, why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Better to step back from that one a bit.
Better for who? I'll stand where I am, until I'm given another place to stand, which is an acceptable replacement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
This what people mean when they speak of entitlement, a general attitude of entitlement, like one's somehow entitled to the sympathy and attention and affection and trust of a fat audience; that all fat people, everywhere, should be perfectly happy to rush to their defense, chasing windmills, etc....for the privilege of hearing about how they or their fat gives you some kind of boner. Except, that's not, like, reality, how stuff works out in the real world. Really, nothing works like that out in the real world.
1. Straw man fallacy #1. I never said I wanted all fat people to appreciate my feelings.
2. Straw man fallacy #2. I specifically said of sex; "Screw that noise."
3. Straw man fallacy #3. I never said I deserved anything. You made that part up yourself. I said people have a responsibility to each other, however, that responsibility does not come from what we deserve. So all of your points about "entitlement" or whatnot are aimed at some imaginary person who is not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
2) It will tend to be that young people will occupy and take ownership of and protect and defend a space that both takes them in early on and offers them some kind of sustained support. And so, once that space, virtual or otherwise, becomes overrun with (mostly) undesirable elements, it will effectively cease to attract the kinds of numbers of young(er) and new people it practically needs to in order to sustain any kind of ecosystem. It will die off as the older members die-themselves or move on to other things, different phases of life.
If that is your way of saying that there are other "places" that have not been overrun by "undesirable elements," and which will still offer a normal environment for civilized discussion of normal feelings like those of FAs, then that's fine, in and of itself, but you still haven't said any of this directly, and until you do (and perhaps prove some of it true,) your talk of "moving on to other phases" is moonshine, because there just isn't anywhere to move to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
As such, this particular kind of challenge is not at all unique to Size Acceptance or Fat Admiration, but has been equally met (more successfully) by many other subcultures or counter-cultural movements and gone to being better, more firmly established and effective for it. Other older members, people with a lot more direct experience in it than I, have spoken about this here and otherwise at length in the past. The practical need to proactively police and protect one's own. To come up with some kind of mutually agreed-upon ground rules or best practices wherever applicable. Both for the greater good and out of some sense of altruism. And to protect a burgeoning sense of community both from within and without.
As with the last one, I'm not able to decypher any direct claims from this portion. Are you saying "we've got a new social community in the works, but we need some kind of keystone to build it on first?" I'd be happy to share some ideas, if that's the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
So, it's not really about fetishes or fetishists, per se; but more about peoples' behavior, in general, what's deem mostly acceptable versus what's considered universally unacceptable, beyond the pale, so to speak. And, with that, fat people are as much a part of it as anyone else, how they might use whatever baggage they're carrying in order to justify whatever might otherwise not be overlooked. How anyone might try to co-opt some larger, higher purpose for their own base and selfish means.
What? That's not a sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
But it's not anything to do with Feminism, really, 3rd Wave or otherwise.
From what I understand, 3rd wave feminism stressed individualism (which does not help women,) diversity (which helps women only in moderation,) and overall confusion as to direction (which helps no one.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Oh, I see. So, that we lack for a workable (read: airtight) definition for something, it therefore does not exist? Is not 'a problem' we can talk about?
No problem can be discussed if you can't define it, just like you can't talk about squirrels if the word "squirrel" has no definitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
You know, I think this is what's really at the root of your problems: Too much of "I feel..." and "I think..." and "my feelings..." and not enough critical thinking and (more objective) self-examination and self-criticism and (practical) analysis. Too much certitude and 'confidence' without enough directly relevant experience and evidence to support it.
So, in other words, you don't want to have to shoulder the burden of contesting anything I said, so you're just asking me to do it.

Come on, man! Step it up!
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