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#26 | ||||||||
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 456
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This one is fairly brief, and all of it is basic to what we were discussing before, so here we go...
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1. Too many of them merely establish correlations, and expect people to agree with the assumptions that they make, in interpreting what those correlations imply. 2. Too many studies proclaim results relevant to weight loss, without addressing whether said results could be due to other factors, by specifically studying those whose weight loss did not coincide with an increase in other healthy behaviors. 3. Too few of them make allowances for genetic factors in the results, or allow for the possibility that some slight trends in the results may be due to mere coincidence, instead interpreting a 2-point, on-paper "risk" spike in some group of people as a sign that everyone must belong to another group. 4. Too many studies use inadequate, or misleading terms to warp the results of their study, but don't go out of their way to reveal this to the general public. 5. Too many studies are presented to the public only as a final graph or statistic, with the fat-hostile media providing the interpretation. 6. In short, too many studies treat mere statistics as if they were facts, but as Samuel Clemens rightly saw, statistics are just another way to lie and not get caught, unless they're based on something actual. Are they? In order to understand whether a specific study has something wrong with it, you need to actually read about it; the terms of the experiments, and how the men did their research. What kinds of people did they bring in? What was the question they were trying to answer? Who paid for the study to be done? Of course, all of this information matters to a person who's concerned with learning the truth, but the general public, who mistakenly trust these snake oil salesmen, masquerading as scientists, doesn't get this information from them directly, and for a variety of reasons, can't afford to find it for themselves. Now, you could, of course, settle the matter by telling me which study shows any of these things, and pointing out that the study was impartial, able to discount other, alternative explanations of its raw data, etc, but you haven't done that, and until you do, no argument is adequate. It does no one any good to tell a person "Just read hundreds of pages of propaganda, and then you'll see!" It is not my job to present the evidence to support the positions of my opponents. That's not how dialogue or debates work. Each person presents evidence to support their own position. Also, I'm a bit confused by your reaction. You'd think you'd want good reasons to think your feelings are evil; not just a bunch of charts and graphs with no context. As the premature judgments against the health of salt and saturated fats show, statistics in the 20th and 21st centuries have, at best, a spotty history. I hope you'll come to understand this one day. Quote:
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Yes, there are common methods used by those who belong to that category of people who lose weight and keep it off. My question was to do with how large that category is. How many of these people following commonly-prescribed methods of weight loss succeed, vs how many fail. Quote:
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P.S.: Lest you claim that this is not the case, take note of how miserably the fat acceptance "movement" has failed, and then try to tell me it hasn't been a total disaster. Clearly, it has, so it seems to me that embracing logically-stronger tactics is something you'd want to do. Quote:
P.S.: I can sort of understand being a little uncritical in your approach to a given topic. I get that some people really, really want to trust that "researchers" know what they're talking about, so when the main stream follows a certain point, I can sort of forgive people who also follow that point, even when a careful examination of the evidence shows it to be badly-supported, or even just flat-out wrong. However, I felt no sympathy at all after you brought up BMI, and I don't understand how you could make this kind of mistake, if you really study the topic as you say you do. Your statements about BMI (along with any other statement claiming that BMI has any value in determining overall health) have been soundly debunked in mainstream publications on science and medicine. These debunkings are truly easy to find (I found no less than five through googling "BMI inadequate" in less than a minute, then following the links to the source material for those articles.) Those who still cite BMI as a reliable way of guaging health are internet fat-hate groups, inexperienced trolls, and other people whose scientific data is severely outdated, because the truth doesn't serve their purposes. P.P.S.: When I say that none of my arguments are based on how I feel, I don't mean that I don't have any feelings related to these issues. I obviously do. However, my feelings come into play after I learn the truth about something, and are mainly related to the question "How will I deal with these feelings, on the basis of this information?" For me, if any of what you said about fatness were provable, I suppose I'd end up living on a mountain somewhere, as far away from all human contact as possible, but as I said, I don't think you've presented sufficient evidence to justify arriving at that conclusion. |
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#27 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 353
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![]() The good news: moderate overweight/obesity may NOT be associated with reduced life expectancy, although quality of life is a whole other issue. The best evidence we have is "research led by Katherine Flegal, a distinguished epidemiologist from the National Centre for Health Statistics at the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention in Maryland, US"http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...k-8434743.html In particular, low waist to hip ratios seem to be associated with better health outcomes - so pears rule (my wife is an apple ![]() I agree with HereticFA that SSBBW status is not to be treaded on lightly. FA guilt - oh my ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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"Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time." - Thomas A. Edison |
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#28 | |
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 456
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The stakes, for me, could not be higher, and my entire life's structure will hinge on this point, so I'm strongly motivated to learn the actual truth about this. Am I going to be offered some hope in this life, or do I need to wait for the next with patience and silence? I refuse to feel guilty about something which I don't control, can't help, and have no alternative to. |
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#29 |
AΔΦΆΓΙΑ
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,977
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Statistics don't guarantee individual outcomes. My grandmother was of SSBBW size for nearly my whole life, she lived until her late 80's. To an outside observer just looking at visuals she shrank continuously the last decade of her life until she died at an average size. Her mother was very large and her mother's mother was very large (back when very large women were a lot rarer.) So maybe she had something genetically predisposing her to being large, maybe for her as an individual being so large wasn't that far outside the realm of normal and it wasn't as bad health wise as for someone else, especially as it related to metabolic problems and life expectancy. She had skeletal problems though, hip problems and knee problems for as far back as I can remember.
My wife is currently teetering on the edge of the SSBBW threshold. She's been across it a few times in the past, pretty far across at one point. She loses a ton of weight from childbirth, we have 2 perfect handsome little boys and she lost somewhere around 70 pounds in the space of months after giving birth to each one. She wants another one, we're working on it. I worry about her health, she has back pain (requiring cortisone shots,) she has foot pain, she's had gestational diabetes with both pregnancies. I struggle with some of the same issues I think you're struggling with. I'm honest with her. "Yes I'm more attracted and sexually excited when you're bigger" I tell her, "I will always be devoted to you if you lose weight or not, whether you're 90 pounds or 900 pounds." As far as assholes go, well there will always be assholes. They think they can justify being dicks to fat people by citing statistics. No, tearing someone down to make yourself feel better is being an asshole no matter how you slice it. I'll always call them on it. Fat people don't cost more in medical costs as every study that measures costs over a lifetime shows. Fat people make less money. Yeah, so do short people, the world is full of shallow fucks. Fat people hurt economic production with more sick days. Oh I'm sorry, did we suddenly stop living in a capitalist society where any particular individual's relationship with their employer is none of your fucking business?
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The more you try to convince me of what a big deal you are, the less I'll think of you. |
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#30 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 456
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It's like I've said before. Unless you're talking about the board game, "risk" isn't real. It's only an estimate. P.S.: I love your replies, by the way. |
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#31 |
"Bitter Old Man"
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,638
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Not that I want this discussion to turn into perceptions of health of fat people (because the rest of the thread is fascinating in many ways), but I am a big proponent of contemporary research that being fat isn't as unhealthy as one would think. I constantly look for studies that support this, and while it takes some work, the reality is that most of those studies are blown off as "pseudo science", despite the fact that some of the research comes not only from some quality research institutions, but from all areas of the world. The problem is that it's so revolutionary that most people simply blow it off as fat people trying to convince themselves that being fat is okay (which it should be).
And for this reason alone (there are others as well), we need fat acceptance, and while I agree doesn'e exist as we knew it when Bill Fabrey created NAAFA back in 1969, is probably needed now more than ever, thanks to trolls & internet bullies that still bleed over into real life.
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"O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet." ~ Saint Augustine |
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#32 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 456
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Nothing about the study said that we should, and by shifting the topic off of fatness, and onto eating habits, the mainstream scientist can look as though they're right, without actually challenging anything that the study showed. The problem is that the general public is still laboring under the popular-level misconception that eating habits and weight are one and the same issue, and they are not. By moving the target in this way, these scientists only encourage this misconception to continue, contributing to further ignorance of these topics, which translates into more suffering of innocent people just trying to live their lives on the ground. Quote:
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#33 | |||
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 353
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I certainly agree about the chasm between correlation and causation regarding fatness and health outcomes. There are so many other confounding factors that may be involved in the health of fat people. One of the more important ones is level of physical activity that tends to go down as weight goes up. I recall a study that was released a few years back where they showed moderately overweight people who exercised regularly had statistically better health outcomes than thin people who never worked out. A potential flaw there might have been using BMI only to categorize the people and so you could have some high BMI/'normal' body fat (muscle-bound) people making that group seem 'healthier'. I also think the damage done by yo-yo dieting needs to be considered – and again I believe at least one study showed people who had a more stable high weight tended to be better off than those who had large fluctuations over the years. Fat people also are more likely to be stressed due to discrimination, and we know that constant stress/anxiety is bad for your long-term health. As far as the ‘FA guilt’, for me it is seeing numerous women who had done BBW modelling or porn and who I had lusted over now dying in their 40s and 50s. But you are right that we don’t consciously choose to find these SSBBW attractive and we have no direct effect on their lives. I guess it is only when it is your own significant other and potentially weight-related health issues that we really need to ‘check ourselves’. Quote:
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"Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time." - Thomas A. Edison |
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#34 | |||||||
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Location: Massachusetts
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Trans fats (Obviously) Lack of exercise Excessive intake of refined sugars Yo-yo dieting High-Fructose Corn Syrup Stress Lack of Sleep Not enough intake of healthy fats Quote:
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#35 |
"Bitter Old Man"
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,638
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Not so much a "study", but it's uplifting to see someone from the sciences discuss the topic intelligently, adding personal experience.
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"O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet." ~ Saint Augustine |
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#36 | |
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 761
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There is one thing I would challenge her on in regards to "Mindful Eating" (or intuitive eating, as others have labeled it). It's the recommendation to "stop eating when you're full". Unfortunately that signal is missing from so many of us (for a variety of reasons). For many of us, all we have left is the signal to stop eating before we overstretch our stomachs and do damage. I recommend to instead stop eating when you're no longer hungry. That's a much lower threshold in quantity and caloric content. One of the most significant things I noticed after being involved in the Fat Acceptance movement for a few years (decades ago) was how many of us had very significant emotional stressors when growing up. One of which was the extremely significant number of the women that were victims of sexual abuse, easily over 50% that I knew personally. Others had violent family members or bullies in their lives. Most of the people tended to gain weight after their period of emotionally stressful events. Their weight setpoint had been moved upwards. In most all cases they tended to eat until they were unable to eat any more. Only then did they stop eating. I suspect they were misinterpreting their body's natural signal of satiety due to the emotional "noise" of their previous stressors. This is much like how a person can develop loss of hearing and tinnitus after hearing loud music at a concert. |
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#37 | ||||||
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 761
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You would be much more helpful if you cited studies and specific points within those studies where you believed there were problems. But to fully disregard all the studies for the reasons you've stated makes it hard to take you seriously. Quote:
I'd like to see it as no different from any other physicality. But our society already fetishizes pretty faces and height, so maybe that's the basis for society's negative views of FA's. (Being fat makes a person look shorter and will alter the aspects of a face.) Quote:
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In some medical issues, specifically diabetes, sufficient weight loss has been shown to relieve the disease. The only variables are what constitutes "sufficient weight loss" and how much relief can occur. In my wife it took losing over 150 lbs to see noticeable relief. But she had very brittle diabetes and was insulin dependent, with wild swings in BG levels that were very hard to regulate. Now with a 220 lb weight loss she's able to regulate her BG level pretty well. Others fared much better with less than a 100 pound weight loss necessary to get off oral meds for their diabetes. Quote:
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I personally find a big, round "moon face" to be very attractive. But I also know that's a sign of Cushing's Syndrome. It doesn't stop my preference. But it helps me understand what other issues that person may be experiencing. (It also helped me notice that so many WLS post-ops still had their moon face after weight loss, indicating the underlying issue that made them fat hadn't really been addressed and may explain some of their continued health problems.) |
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#38 | |||||||||||||
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 456
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Well, I've certainly been enjoying this debate, and I hope you have as well. Now, it's pretty obvious that this discussion has become one about evidence, but before I go back to look at the evidence challenges that I put forth, and see how they've fared, I want to correct one major misconception that I've noticed cropping up throughout this last reply.
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However, up to now, I have not discounted the contents of any studies, because it hasn't been necessary to. You simply haven't presented any. All you did was point me in the general direction of a huge library, then tell me to find it myself, and that's simply not how this works. If you have a claim that you want to advance, the burden of proving that claim falls on you; not me. If you have found even one study that provides clear evidence of any of the things you've said, well, go ahead and tell me about it. Who knows? I might agree. We'll never know whether I'll consider the evidence sound or not, unless some is actually presented. Quote:
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As far as anecdotal evidence being an uncollected datapoint, I certainly agree. That's why I don't consider it strong evidence either, by itself. Quote:
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By contrast, when science is isolated from logic, there's nothing to stop scientists from gathering data, then making assumptions about what that data implies, which are not, in any way implied by that data. Those who claim they have no need for philosophy are the ones most likely to be deceived by it. For example... Quote:
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Indeed, you seem to acknowledge that there are other, unrelated factors that effect the health of fat people, and which should, therefore, be taken into account, when you say... Quote:
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Now, with respect to the 18 challenges I advanced, challenges 1 and 11 are to do with the mistreatment of fat people on the assumption that they are in poor health. I addressed these issues from a moral perspective, and the only responses I can recall were based on incorrect assumptions that my moral concerns were sentimental. Challenge 3 hasn't been adequately responded to, with the conclusion just sort of being assumed, even in this last reply, and that's only question begging. On challenges 6 and 7, you basically conceded the point, by admitting that doctors don't know the relationship between fatness and poor health. On challenge 9, you used the term "food addiction" in a way I've never heard it used, to refer to a group of people I've never heard of before. Challenges 12, 13, 14 and 15 were answered from the incorrect assumption that "fat hate" and "weight loss" are one and the same, and frequently, there were other confusions as well, such as not taking note of the word "succeed" in number 15, so no strong counter-arguments have been advanced against those points. Challenge 16 was answered only by citing the methods that some people use to keep weight off, which was not an actual answer to the question. Challenge 17 was responded to by a suggestion that people who lose weight feel better afterwards, but no evidence was advanced to support this view. As for challenges 2, 4, 5, 8, 10 and 18, these have never been responded to in this discussion to any significant degree, and so even if all of my arguments failed, I still think we would have plenty of good reasons to doubt that fatness is the cause of poor health. |
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#39 |
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 456
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Yes. It doesn't cite any studies or examine the methods used to gather this information, but in general, these have been the same findings that my own research has turned up (though I obviously don't agree with her from an aesthetic point of view.)
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#40 | |
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2
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On a whim I created this new account in 2014 and still the same. Now it's 2018 and I see the friction is even stronger. I remember going to BBW events from Vegas to Dallas to Miami. We could see the change happening. I fear that the damage has been done. We've let politics venture into our community and as with every community that lets politics in. It gets consumed and murdered. |
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#41 | |
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 456
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And, as an aside, what relationship does this have with the difficulty of finding a support community that's actually freaking supportive? |
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#42 | |
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2
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Not really about who or what you vote or voted for. Politics is far more wide spreading than the people in power. Some things have gone too far in the whole 'acceptance' realm of things. Look, don't kid yourself here TwoSwords. BBW events were always filled with fights and jealousy. SSBBW would scream at women they didn't consider big enough to be SSBBW then you had the BBW and the FA's yelling at the women that had weight loss surgery .. yelling at them when they weren't puking in the bathroom that is. That has always been part of the culture and lifestyle but something took a really strange twist over the last ten years. All self respect seems to be gone. That's the first thing I notice. It's like this whole 'fat movement' means that caring how you look makes you a poser and not a true member of the 'movement' and that's what I mean by politics. See it the same way the most popular person in the room sees it or you can bet you're going to get shamed online and in public by your so called peers. Those politics. Not being ashamed of your body, accepting yourself for who you are.. even wanting to pack on the pounds because you yourself find it comforting and beautiful-- that doesn't mean you parade around in public letting fat hang out all over the place and for the love of God.. take a shower, toss on some make up if you're a woman.. have some self respect. Then you add up all the real political shit like paying extra for airfare. Weight costs more to transport and why is it so wrong to consider the feelings of the passenger sitting next to the obese person? Why must EVERYONE accept your lifestyle choice but the fat movement person .. the fat activist. They don't have to accept the wants and desires of others. Not long ago things were different. The women of my generation of The Fat Girl was classy and respectful of others and glowed with self respect. Catay is one.. not sure if she's still around. Back in 1999 a lady here fixed my first online photo and for the life of me I can't remember her name. I just remember she was really into x-game athletes -- damn I have her name on the tip of my tongue too. Grrrrrrrr.. Anyway that's what I mean by politics. It's not about who or what you voted for as much as the politics of the 'movement' as it were. For example my wife is a feminist but she wouldn't be caught dead with this 3rd way feminism that is ruining the world, stopping women from being hired, and ruining lives of innocent people just on their word. POLITICS |
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#43 |
Hard to say, really...
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: "Empire State of Mind"
Posts: 2,372
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#44 | |||||
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 456
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I feel that feminism has done Fat Acceptance no favors in general. |
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#45 | |
"Bitter Old Man"
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,638
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While I think that "ruined" might not be the best word used to describe it (everyone moves on, regardless of emotional/physical damage), the fact remains that an incredible amount of bullying & harassment went on in the community. Case in point. Right around 1998-1999 there was a young lady who was very active in the forums who went under the name "Tantalizing Eyes". She contributed to the forums on a regular basis. In late 1999, a dude visited her, and was supposed to be staying at a hotel near her home. Somehow it turned into him demanding that he stay with her, and as I recall, the situation got ugly and the guy was removed by police She turned to the same forum that she contributed to, in an effort to discuss what happened, and maybe warn other women to be careful. Instead, the "community" turned on her, engaged in a lot of what today would be considered slut shaming, and was essentially chased off the Dimensions site. I can assure you that this was not uncommon. As someone who ran BBW events, I can assure you that what AirboatRunner has described is true. It's one of the many reasons that I stopped running events in NJ. As a friend who also used to attend events all over the country succinctly stated at the time, "Honestly, I felt much better about myself before I found Fat Acceptance".
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"O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet." ~ Saint Augustine |
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#46 | |||||
Hard to say, really...
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: "Empire State of Mind"
Posts: 2,372
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Have you actually thought about this? I mean, really, really reflected on it, thinking it all through, all of the various angles and implications? How much do you actually remember of life before smartphones? What about the time before that, when WiFi first became so widely available in all of our public spaces (libraries, cafes, etc...)? What about, before even that, the at times gradual shift from dial-up to broadband? Or as dial-up and satellite-based services began to expand yet further and further into yet more rural and remote areas? (btw, what was it like when you were in grade school and high school, respectively? Do you think it's basically the same as how it was when your parents went to school or when your grandparents were in school? Or do you suppose things have changed, somewhat, more or less? I mean in terms of how things are run, along the lines of stuff student discipline and security, etc...) Mind you, both Size Acceptance and Fat Admiration-alike, respectively, as distinct subcultures and movements, were up and running well-before all of this. Long-time members of this site, if not to mention its creator, were doing all kinds of stuff, appearing on talk shows, running 'zines, going to workshops and other such events. Do you really honestly believe that things are more difficult for fat people today than as they might've seemed back then?? Quote:
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However, it's not really reflective of how most fat people talk about themselves nowadays. Size Acceptance is still, now, 'a thing.' So is Body Positivity. And so is Fat Admiration. Conflating all of that, together, under a banner of Fat Acceptance, or whatever else you want to call it, is akin to.....Nevermind. Just, just....don't do it. Even if you're fat yourself. Better to step back from that one a bit. Quote:
In reality, out in the real world, 1) You're entitled to no-thing. 2) It will tend to be that young people will occupy and take ownership of and protect and defend a space that both takes them in early on and offers them some kind of sustained support. And so, once that space, virtual or otherwise, becomes overrun with (mostly) undesirable elements, it will effectively cease to attract the kinds of numbers of young(er) and new people it practically needs to in order to sustain any kind of ecosystem. It will die off as the older members die-themselves or move on to other things, different phases of life. As such, this particular kind of challenge is not at all unique to Size Acceptance or Fat Admiration, but has been equally met (more successfully) by many other subcultures or counter-cultural movements and gone to being better, more firmly established and effective for it. Other older members, people with a lot more direct experience in it than I, have spoken about this here and otherwise at length in the past. The practical need to proactively police and protect one's own. To come up with some kind of mutually agreed-upon ground rules or best practices wherever applicable. Both for the greater good and out of some sense of altruism. And to protect a burgeoning sense of community both from within and without. Quote:
So, it's not really about fetishes or fetishists, per se; but more about peoples' behavior, in general, what's deem mostly acceptable versus what's considered universally unacceptable, beyond the pale, so to speak. And, with that, fat people are as much a part of it as anyone else, how they might use whatever baggage they're carrying in order to justify whatever might otherwise not be overlooked. How anyone might try to co-opt some larger, higher purpose for their own base and selfish means. |
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#47 | |
Hard to say, really...
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: "Empire State of Mind"
Posts: 2,372
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Yet another example of how readily people will co-opt the social currency other others' ideals, if left to their own devices. |
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#48 | |||
Hard to say, really...
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: "Empire State of Mind"
Posts: 2,372
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Are you physician? A (licensed) nutritionist? Physical therapist? Quote:
Indeed, the world still turns, but without your help. Oh, I see. So, that we lack for a workable (read: airtight) definition for something, it therefore does not exist? Is not 'a problem' we can talk about? Yeah, that makes sense. Quote:
C'mon, man, it's time for a paradigm-shift. Start today! |
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#49 | |
"Bitter Old Man"
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,638
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The only connection I can make is that Fat Acceptance has moved to Body Positivity, a movement primarily controlled by women, since the entire concept deals with the judgment of female bodies. That in and of itself may connect it to feminism, but I'd really like to see women participate in this disucssion to give their insight.
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"O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet." ~ Saint Augustine |
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#50 | ||||||||||||||
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 456
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Better for who? I'll stand where I am, until I'm given another place to stand, which is an acceptable replacement. Quote:
2. Straw man fallacy #2. I specifically said of sex; "Screw that noise." 3. Straw man fallacy #3. I never said I deserved anything. You made that part up yourself. I said people have a responsibility to each other, however, that responsibility does not come from what we deserve. So all of your points about "entitlement" or whatnot are aimed at some imaginary person who is not me. Quote:
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Come on, man! Step it up! |
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