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Old 01-10-2018, 08:04 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
Going to hit a couple of points then address the below. First medical equipment is not where it needs to be. I have been left sitting in a wheelchair for hours waiting while they locate a bariatric hospital bed. Large blood pressure cuffs hurt and very few medical personel know how to accurately do this on the forearm. Weight based medications are not tested on large people it is a gamble when they dose fat people. I could go on and on. Amazon doesn’t have needed surgical equipment or radiation treatment supplies.
Amazon doesn't have supplies for surgery and radiation treatment because those are specialized pieces of equipment that only professionals are permitted to use. I don't think of those as "supplies" that can be provided for someone per se. As for the rest, it just sounds like you have poorly-trained medical professionals in your area; an ailment with which many people, in the FA community and otherwise, can intimately sympathize.

P.S.: All blood pressure cuffs hurt. At least if you're doing it right.

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Second- there does need a place for fatties to gather for solidarity on social media. Hashtags are the new group identifier.
I... see... Hashtags. Yeah.
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:23 PM   #77
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Trans fats (Obviously)
Trans fats are saturated fats, thus unhealthy, but I can't say butter or lard are one iota less unhealthy. Calorie wise, they and liquid lipids, such as vegetable oils, are the same 9cal/g.
Well, take all of this with a grain of salt, since, as I said, we really don't have any proof of how any of these things effect the human body in an absolute sense.

However, we do know that Trans Fats are not saturated fats at all. The term is short for "trans-unsaturated fatty acids," and it occurs in nature in small amounts, but then again, so does cyanide (protip; don't eat ten pounds of almonds in one sitting. It's just not a good idea.)

We also know that trans fats elevate triglyceride levels, while most other saturated fats don't, and in particular, normal saturated fats like butter and coconut oil show no increased rate of coronary artery disease in the way that trans fats do. In fact, most people who cut down on saturated fats increase their intake of carbs, which is significantly more likely to raise their triglyceride levels. Also, you might want to avoid cooking with those vegetable oils you just mentioned. They produce a chemical when heated, which has been shown to cause cancer when taken in large amounts.

This information is supported (but, as I said, not proven) by widespread studies as recent as 2010, and is the result of a 3-month excavation of the highly-polluted field of medical data. I have never in my life seen such a mess when it came to researching a topic. There is agreement on nothing, except, for the most part, that trans-fats are bad, and exercise good.

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High-Fructose Corn Syrup
HFCS is a lightning rod to those that believe that anything that was not given by the "Earth Mother" is sinful and unhealthy. Reality is, it's just another refined sugar, albeit refined from mays, instead of cane or beets. People who think they can wolf down desserts made with "natural" cane sugar are in for nasty surprises decades down the road.
On this point, I partly agree, since I did mention over-consumption of refined sugars, but High Fructose Corn Syrup in particular has been found to harm the immune system, making you more vulnerable to various ailments and illnesses.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:09 AM   #78
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Amazon doesn't have supplies for surgery and radiation treatment because those are specialized pieces of equipment that only professionals are permitted to use. I don't think of those as "supplies" that can be provided for someone per se. As for the rest, it just sounds like you have poorly-trained medical professionals in your area; an ailment with which many people, in the FA community and otherwise, can intimately sympathize.

P.S.: All blood pressure cuffs hurt. At least if you're doing it right.



I... see... Hashtags. Yeah.
NO, all BP cuffs do not hurt. If they hurt, they are too tight and give an inaccurate reading
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:10 AM   #79
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NO, all BP cuffs do not hurt. If they hurt, they are too tight and give an inaccurate reading
I was just about to say this. If your blood pressure cuff hurts it is the wrong size. It should feel like a firm pressure but not be painful.

Also, as an aside... this discussion since DragonFly joined in really highlights exactly why there is a gulf between fat people and FAs. A SSBBW comes onto the board and explains the issues she faces, the struggles she has for her human rights, and you guys respond by basically saying "No, your wrong, also, doesn't affect me so I don't care". Try actually being passionate and caring towards fat people rather than only caring about yourself and what you want in life. This attitude is exactly the reason why fat women want nothing to do with some of you, and you're all too self involved to turn around and see it.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:56 AM   #80
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I was just about to say this. If your blood pressure cuff hurts it is the wrong size. It should feel like a firm pressure but not be painful.

Also, as an aside... this discussion since DragonFly joined in really highlights exactly why there is a gulf between fat people and FAs. A SSBBW comes onto the board and explains the issues she faces, the struggles she has for her human rights, and you guys respond by basically saying "No, your wrong, also, doesn't affect me so I don't care". Try actually being passionate and caring towards fat people rather than only caring about yourself and what you want in life. This attitude is exactly the reason why fat women want nothing to do with some of you, and you're all too self involved to turn around and see it.
The fact of the matter is that there will always be more than one person in every human interaction. If DragonFly has issues that need further resolving, we can work together at resolving those, but no one has ever taken my blood pressure without it hurting a little, so those are my experiences.

I never said I don't care about these things, but rather, that many of them do not serve to unite us in a common cause, and that some are not related to this discussion, or even this general topic.

It's just as I said; people need to be willing to focus on what unites them if they want to get anything accomplished. If all you focus on is your own desires, you're just going to drive people away, and this is true no matter how much, or how little you weigh, or what the source of your problems is, but it's especially true among those who have a history of suffering shame and persecution.

I began this topic to talk about a very specific issue; social media and the hardship of finding an accepting and welcoming environment on it in the modern world. This is an issue that has strong effects on those whose unpopular qualities have made social contact in normal ways difficult or impossible, and it is an issue in which, it seems, both FAs and fat people can see problems (I have DragonFly's responses to back me up on this conclusion.) So it seems that it matters a lot, and there's plenty of room to talk about things that unite us in that topic. I'd much prefer to do that, rather than shift discussion to an anecdotal issue, that may or may not be widespread enough to effect the community as a whole.

Also, for the record, when you tell men about problems you're having, you are implicitly, because they're men, asking for solutions. This is not a criticism of your struggles. It's just what men do. We want to help.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:01 AM   #81
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Default ^Not me, though. Just that other guy...

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"Second- there does need a place for fatties to gather for solidarity on social media. Hashtags are the new group identifier."
That's hardly even a poor substitute. A Hashtag could certainly make for an effective call sign for a community already well-organized and more firmly established, like during the Arab Spring. But it's not like a once disintegrated group can all of a sudden self-resuscitate just like that. Besides which:

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"Did Video kill the Radio Star.....NAAFA failed when it went away from the social side of things. Bashes, the internet and a ton of apps have come up that can connect the fat and the fat admirer. Filling the social gap...found a couple FAs on SnapChat of all places."
This only helps to explain how and why Fat people-themselves aren't as dependent on what NAAFA and then, subsequently, Dimensions once provided. Certainly an important-enough part of the equation, and why I brought the point of technology (smart phones) into this in the first place. However, it does nothing to account for how quickly the bottom dropped out for both.

There are other factors which, if more effectively mitigated, could've proven the difference in ultimately retarding the progression of this decline. Or, if neutralized altogether, might've provided some more timely, adequate opportunity to actually take advantage of such emergent technological trends to bolster said community into something even bigger and yet-more socially and politically relevant.

After all, there are still bashes, right? That's still 'a thing,' folks are still doing that. But it's just not the same anymore.

And so, as it appears to me, some of us are less willing to discuss these particular factors as candidly and objectively, even for our own place in them:

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"What puzzles me is that so many people who previously had such a need to discuss these matters, suddenly decided they no longer needed that, because a few people had turned out to be kind of lame...need to talk about fatness and my feelings about it would be the same, even if..."
Well, maybe you should look further into what actually happened, in the past. Beyond your own preconceptions. Consider what people are trying to tell you, more deeply. Explore the questions they present you with more thoroughly. You know, like Decartes' Meditation, starting out with just nothing, empty your whole brain, and just start working your way up from there.

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"...the inadequate presence of fat acceptance/fat positivity/fat normalization on social media and the internet in general. Activism as such is not a required component of that. You just need two or more people who are willing to accept that fat is not evil, and boom. You've got your fat-normalized environment. My concern is how there don't seem to be any of those, online or elsewhere."
Except, as has been already pointed out for you, and not just by me, both Dimensions and NAAFA (already) fulfilled this demand, above and beyond, for lots and lots of people. And for a pretty long time.

What happened? Who moved your cheese?

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"...anonymity and all the things that goes with it...Now introduce Facebook and posters from all these sites migrated there and added to their friends lists the people they have met online. Individual circles start to overlap as well. We now how real names with real faces at play. And more than a few of those names and faces have no problems using their Facebook timelines to scream (pun intended) their politics and social views from the tops of their lungs because now the board rules no longer apply and it is THEIR space....the people whom I suspected were flaming assholes all those years really are flaming assholes...enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth. This community that once valued tolerance and acceptance has shown a shitty track record of doing just the very opposite. Some of the more visible posters from years past are especially guilty of this in my opinion.

My point is once people saw the real faces of their fellow community members outside of Dimensions on Facebook , the likelihood of pulling away from the community increased along with the subsequent fragmentation. Why put up with the negative BS if you don't have to?
"
Yes, this is definitely some big part of it, albeit not the most efficient stating point.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:16 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Well, maybe you should look further into what actually happened, in the past. Beyond your own preconceptions. Consider what people are trying to tell you, more deeply. Explore the questions they present you with more thoroughly. You know, like Decartes' Meditation, starting out with just nothing, empty your whole brain, and just start working your way up from there.

Except, as has been already pointed out for you, and not just by me, both Dimensions and NAAFA (already) fulfilled this demand, above and beyond, for lots and lots of people. And for a pretty long time.

What happened? Who moved your cheese?

Yes, this is definitely some big part of it, albeit not the most efficient stating point.
I don't think that you need to criticize other people for being inefficient in answering questions, Yakatori. I can't recall for certain, but I don't believe I've ever gotten a straight answer from you on anything I've asked, in all the time we've been talking.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:12 PM   #83
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It might not have been efficient but it was accurate. Unfortunately, you can't encapsulate the underlying dynamics of this community in just a few short sentences.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:29 PM   #84
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Amazon doesn't have supplies for surgery and radiation treatment because those are specialized pieces of equipment that only professionals are permitted to use. I don't think of those as "supplies" that can be provided for someone per se. As for the rest, it just sounds like you have poorly-trained medical professionals in your area; an ailment with which many people, in the FA community and otherwise, can intimately sympathize.

P.S.: All blood pressure cuffs hurt. At least if you're doing it right.



I... see... Hashtags. Yeah.
You are not correct in thinking that the medical industry has taken the fat population into account when they are developing treatements or equipment. I am in an area known for its good medical care, your second assumption is also incorrect. Your supersized population is at danger at all times from the lack of medical knowledge and resources to treat them.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:41 PM   #85
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You are not correct in thinking that the medical industry has taken the fat population into account when they are developing treatements or equipment. I am in an area known for its good medical care, your second assumption is also incorrect. Your supersized population is at danger at all times from the lack of medical knowledge and resources to treat them.
Now, here I agree. The pharmaceutical and medical industries, and medical practitioners nationwide (perhaps even globally,) are a wreck right now because they're not doing their research responsibly.

I don't believe I said the "medical industry" took fat people into account, but rather that a lot of specialized equipment has come onto the market with fat people in mind, and that equipment is much easier to find now than it's ever been. I still stand by that claim, but if you want to discuss the deficiencies of the modern day medical profession, I'd be more than happy to do so.

However, that's not very strongly related to the thread's intended topic, unless it's part of the reason why there's little-to-no social media presence among those who defend fatness.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:00 PM   #86
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However, that's not very strongly related to the thread's intended topic, unless it's part of the reason why there's little-to-no social media presence among those who defend fatness.
I suspect it's because so many of the true pioneers died before the age of 55, and some before 45. Like "Teighlor", "Ambrosia", and Susan Mason in these vids. The word got out among the newcomers to the fat scene that it's not just an issue of attitude and acceptance.

Oh how I miss my friends.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:51 AM   #87
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Default Blast from the past

I stumbled across this article while searching for old names from the FAc movement. It's an interesting snapshot of the era of FAc 101 in the 70's. Back then the Zine scene was the equivalent of today's social media. Talk about literal snail mail.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-ae62cc8dd8fa/

(Note: I'm using FAc for Fat Acceptance vs FAd for Fat Admirer.)
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:30 AM   #88
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I suspect it's because so many of the true pioneers died before the age of 55, and some before 45. Like "Teighlor", "Ambrosia", and Susan Mason in these vids. The word got out among the newcomers to the fat scene that it's not just an issue of attitude and acceptance.

Oh how I miss my friends.
"The word got out" meaning people started to make assumptions based on incomplete data.

I guess I can see how that would happen.
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:34 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
(Note: I'm using FAc for Fat Acceptance vs FAd for Fat Admirer.)
"Fac" works okay, I think, though I've always preferred "fat appreciator" over "fat admirer," which would mean I'd be using either FAp or FAr, neither of which looks especially good as an acronym. Even the next letter over; FAe, has some unfortunate connotations.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:18 PM   #90
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"The word got out" meaning people started to make assumptions based on incomplete data.

I guess I can see how that would happen.

No, the data is pretty complete. They died and are still dead. They were fat and died at ages over fifteen years below the average age for longevity in the US. And they died of obesity related diseases. While I hate all of that from both a FAc and FAd perspective, those are cold, hard facts.

And now I'm going to start applying some of your pedantic rules for discussion. In your own words in post #38:
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If you have a claim that you want to advance, the burden of proving that claim falls on you; not me.
Referring back to a couple of your earlier posts that started all of this thread:
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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I'm pretty well plugged into the internet, and I do research there as both a hobby and a job. Yet, in the last two Christmas vacations I took, I had to tune it out after just a couple of days, and the main reason was that aside from relatively-isolated cases like Deviantart, I just couldn't trust social media and search engines to deliver what I wanted them to when I tried to do research on fatness and fat acceptance. Go ahead. Try it. Try using Yahoo, Google, Ask... Heck, use Duckduckgo if you think it'll help. The vast majority of searches will turn up opposition to these things, rather than the things themselves.

Lest you think Facebook is any better, the fat acceptance page there hasn't been updated since 2014, and references a fat acceptance website that no longer exists, (Following the link leads to a blank page with a bunch of links to freaking diet info!) while the page devoted to attacking fat acceptance received updates as recently as October of this year. Youtube is even worse, with fat acceptance and body positivity videos either just not present, or not showing up in searches, and needing to be stumbled onto by chance in the associated videos bar on the side.

A while back, I found a really good website with a series of very well-written articles, debunking the myth of the "obesity epidemic," and within a week of my finding it, the page had been scrubbed from the internet.

People mention public outcry against Facebook for their abusive censoring of fat-friendly ads in appropriate places, but I'm shocked that no one's talked about this; that the FA Reddit page is packed with links attacking FA, and so on and so forth. Where does it end? Is there a whole world of civil Fat admirers out there, who just can't make their voices heard because some bureaucrat in Silicon Valley decided to "sanitize" the web, and as always with censorship, it's fat people and their advocates who suffer first?

This has only confirmed me in my current course, naturally. I don't have any other choice but to oppose this naked, broadside attack against free speech in my own way. Still, I wish more people would discuss this, because it seems like far, far too many people don't even talk about these issues anymore.

P.S.: At least Fanfiction net still has "the Unchosen One," so not all hope is lost, I guess.

---

Addendum: More than one person has indirectly questioned my use of "Fat Acceptance" as a point of discussion, and my response is that the fate of Fat Acceptance represents the reason why just targeting fat-hating isn't enough. Just defending fat people from attacks isn't enough. Just trying to fix a few social issues, to make the lives of some women a little easier isn't enough. That helps fat people, sure. So who's helping FAs? Who stands up to defend the people who are treated as sickos and perverts for feeling emotions that are not mainstream, both by society at large, and by the very people they most care about? To use a quote I found online, "...men who find fat women attractive don’t have much more than a light peppering of creepy, small online communities, and several somewhat less creepy, unpopular figureheads to help shoulder public scorn."

We are human beings, and treating us as objects of ridicule for no misdeed is a wicked and shameful act. So, as I've said before, only the targeting of the stigma attached to fatness specifically will show even a glimmer of good faith in this area. Otherwise, it's just a sort of "Got mine, so forget you" attitude from fat people to FAs, giving up on a fight that deserves to be fought, and don't expect me to see it otherwise.
So you've taken absence of evidence (argumentum ad ignorantiam) to justify the basis for this whole thread. Instead of glossing over that fact and skimming ahead, lets take a closer look at what you've chosen as your authoritative reference - the spotty tool of the Internet.

The Internet didn't really start being used commercially by the general public until about 1996, so it's effectively only about 22 years old. Relying on a 22 year old for historic information is foolish. Add to that the web servers of that era were barely i80486 or Pentium2 based. Unless their was an commercial reason to transfer their data to newer servers, that information is gone due to a variety of reasons such as hardware failure or business failure of the hosting company . It's a high level version of "bit rot". So it's a 22 year old with brain damage. Great reference. A great example of this is Stef's old web pages. Only her page at http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/fat.html remains. The linked pages are gone.

Add to the situation some background information that's been documented before, but it was on old Dimensionsmagazine.com servers that could not be restored. (Actually, Dim's has had two significant failures, a digital lobotomy of the collective writings of the FAc and FAd movements when the database servers couldn't be fixed and everything was flushed.) There were two significant points of fallouts within NAAFA. The last one in '97 to '98 they never really recovered from. Both caused spits in the leadership and spawned new Fat Acceptance organizations. The first was the Council on Size and Weight Discrimination (still operating) and the second was Big As Texas (discontinued about 2012, website: http://www.members.tripod.com/bigastexas/). The years 2001 to 2003 were the sharp corner in the downturn of the movement due to the rise of the RNY WLS procedure. That's why you'll find very little since then for FAc and the rise of the Body Positivity movement. In parallel you'll also find the rise of Marilyn Wann and her Fat!So? writings.

So instead of complaining about the lack of true, unconditional Fat Acceptance on the Internet, you should instead be asking why a thriving movement fizzled unless you want to repeat the mistakes of the past. But your focus on effectively returning to FAc 1.0 is just too obdurate. Those of us who lived it get it. I'm sorry you missed the party. Like Dragonfly said, the events were like Brigadoon. Online connections that came later were nice but it was the face to face encounters of the workshops, the hallway discussions, the dinner discussions, and the dances that are the memorable parts for me.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
People mention public outcry against Facebook for their abusive censoring of fat-friendly ads in appropriate places, but I'm shocked that no one's talked about this; that the FA Reddit page is packed with links attacking FA, and so on and so forth. Where does it end? Is there a whole world of civil Fat admirers out there, who just can't make their voices heard because some bureaucrat in Silicon Valley decided to "sanitize" the web, and as always with censorship, it's fat people and their advocates who suffer first?
It is never likely to end as long as anyone has a different agenda and is willing to "white knight" to progress that agenda. Unfortunately one person's white knight is another persons troll.

As for the web being sanitized of FAc articles and posts, you need to have better proof that it's due to purposeful actions and not simply bit rot as I've outlined and demonstrated. And even if proven as purposeful actions, I suspect it will be related to bigger advertising income from the weight loss industry compared to smaller FAc related advertising campaigns.

As for the League of Extraordinary (F)FAs, we're just living life. Some are just enjoying who they found. Others of us are being caregivers for our mates and don't have much time to post here. Most of us tired of the 100:1 odds of fighting the online trolls and abandoned the poorly moderated online FAc communities, starting back in the Usenet era.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:40 PM   #91
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Default The answer's the question...

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"..there's little-to-no social media presence among those who defend fatness."
Except, even that's not really true. Not exactly.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
"..So instead of complaining about the lack of true, unconditional Fat Acceptance on the Internet, you should instead be asking why a thriving movement fizzled.."
Yup. Basically.

Though we might (all) disagree here or there over which particular factors weighed more heavily than others or how they could've or would've been best mitigated; no real way of getting around the larger point of what once was.
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:25 PM   #92
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Heretic, I'm going to give this one more shot, because in spite of your screen name, I really do get the impression that you care about knowing the truth, and have, for whatever reason, some obstacle that's keeping you from understanding my words. I don't see how that's possible. I think I've been fairly clear and direct in all of my points, but if there is any point I've made, which you aren't quite sure how to interpret, or what it means, or you think there's some implication I haven't fully spelled out, please just ask me about it. I'll be happy to explain the rules of inference, the probability calculus, and the broader philosophical laws from which I draw my criteria for knowledge, if you will only ask.

However, while good reasoning can be convincing, simple stubbornness is not, and to be frank, I think it's disingenuous of you to treat my reasoning as foolishness, given the way that this discussion has gone.

By this, what I mean is that you have presented very little evidence in defense of your baffling position, and yet, whenever you did present evidence, I always addressed it using the rules of logic, and always was able to find some weakness in the evidence or the reasoning. By contrast, you have not even addressed most of my points or counterpoints in response to your positions. My point about counter-examples to your "early death by fat" theory has gone unaddressed. My point about how other factors can influence mortality, and therefore this is just another case of using correlations and anecdotes without context to advance a claim that isn't supported by the evidence, has gone unaddressed. Of my 18 original challenges, none has been satisfactorily answered, and there was near-direct concession on two of them. I could go over them again to show this, and I may, if this persists, but suffice to say, I think there's more than enough evidence that I have addressed your concerns much more thoroughly than you have addressed mine. Many of your responses to my requests for data have just been more anecdotes, isolated samplings and correlations without context or proof, and that's not likely to be very helpful in learning the truth about these sorts of issues.

Now, with all of that in mind, again, please ask if you don't understand why using logic to arrive at conclusions is any more correct than making assumptions based on limited anecdotes, or about any other point that threatens to further confuse the issue for you. I don't want to be misunderstood, as you've done here, when you say...

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No, the data is pretty complete. They died and are still dead. They were fat and died at ages over fifteen years below the average age for longevity in the US. And they died of obesity related diseases.
This, remember, is in response to my remark, "...people started to make assumptions based on incomplete data."

It's pretty clear that you didn't understand what I meant by "incomplete," and in a way, that's my fault. I just sort of assumed you'd know what the term meant in this context. "Incomplete" in this context means "not adequate to prove the conclusion presented." Let me use logic to demonstrate this, with the list of data you've just provided. This is done by taking each fact and using them as premises in an argument. If the premises are true, and the logic sound, the conclusion would follow. If it doesn't follow, it's a "guess" or an "assumption," not a "fact."

"They died and are still dead."

Two premises here, the second being unhelpful to the point being advanced, since even if they had resurrected, it would still prove nothing about the effect of fatness upon mortality, or lack thereof. So there's only one relevant premise here.

P1. They died.

"They were fat and died at ages over fifteen years below the average age for longevity in the US."

While it's phrased like one sentence, this is actually three separate premises.

1. There is an actual average longevity in the US.
2. They failed to reach that average by over fifteen years.
3. They were fat.

Here we see that the second premise depends upon the first, since failing to reach an average that doesn't exist is inevitable. However, for the sake of this analysis, let's concede all three of these points as premises 2, 3 and 4.

"And they died of obesity related diseases."

Now, when a person is presenting premises, intending for another person to accept them as evidence, as I said, the task of proving those premises falls on the person presenting them. This premise has not been proven, or even hinted at, until this very moment, so at the very least, this premise is in peril for three major reasons.

1. It has not been established that the diseases were truly related to obesity.
2. It has not been established that obesity caused the diseases, rather than the other way around, or rather than them being caused by an unrelated factor.
3. It has not been established that the diseases could have been prevented, had the people in question not been obese.

Even one of these doubts is sufficient to place this evidence into the "we just don't know" category. However, for the sake of this analysis, and to serve as an example, let me pretend that it were proven that these diseases were related to, caused by, and preventable through avoiding, obesity. Well, in that case, we have five premises. Let's go through them, one by one, and see what follows from combining them.

P1. They died.

C1. Therefore, these people were mortal.

P2. There is an actual average longevity in the US.

C2. Therefore, all people are mortal. (This is because if there were any immortal people, it would make it impossible for an average longevity to be found. Infinities tend to mess with averages.)

P3. They failed to reach that average by over fifteen years.

C3. Therefore, the mortality of these people was not of the average sort.

P4. They were fat.

C4. Therefore, these people were fat, and their mortality was not of the average sort.

P5. They died of obesity related diseases.

C5. Therefore, these people were fat, and died because of it, and their mortality was also not of the average sort.

Conclusion 5 is the final one, because you haven't presented any further premises. Notice what conclusion 5 does not say. It doesn't say that they couldn't have contracted the same diseases, and died the same way, much later or much earlier, or even not at all. Furthermore, it also doesn't say or imply that all people who are fat will experience diseases associated with fatness, just as not all people who are tall will experience diseases that mostly tall people get, and not all thin people will suffer from anemia or a weakened immune system, despite those being illnesses associated with excessive thinness. For these reasons, the data which you've presented does not support the claim that you think it does.

This is a full explanation of what I mean by "incomplete data." I mean that in order to arrive at the claim you say you've arrived at, there must be some hidden premise which is being assumed, and which, if presented, would alter the conclusion to the point of making it match your claim. You have not presented that hidden premise, however, and until you do, your data can't, or at least shouldn't, convince anyone.

I will try to treat your other points in this more thorough way from now on, so that there is no more misunderstanding.

See you in a bit.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:39 PM   #93
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I will try to treat your other points in this more thorough way from now on, so that there is no more misunderstanding.

See you in a bit.
Don't bother. While you don't discount any specific studies, you totally discount statistics, a tool critical for most scientific studies and invent your own version of the truth. I don't believe we have anything further to discuss. I now see why you get caught up in endless debates as you state in #24. You're focused on justifying your feelings by using sophomoric, pedantic techniques to mask your poor quality debating skills and asymmetric techniques that ignore fundamental scientific techniques and practices. We're done.
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Old 01-15-2018, 03:24 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Don't bother. While you don't discount any specific studies, you totally discount statistics, a tool critical for most scientific studies and invent your own version of the truth. I don't believe we have anything further to discuss. I now see why you get caught up in endless debates as you state in #24. You're focused on justifying your feelings by using sophomoric, pedantic techniques to mask your poor quality debating skills and asymmetric techniques that ignore fundamental scientific techniques and practices. We're done.
I'm sorry to hear you say this, because I had hoped you would at least be open to learning about the real rules required for drawing logical conclusions. But it seems you've totally bought into the notion that logic is moonshine and only science and context-free statistics, even in the absence of rational underpinnings, are valid. There's no penetrating that sort of view, because it's based on unquestioning faith, not reason.

I have reasons for doubting the findings of statistics. I have reasons for questioning it when scientists stop doing actual science (measuring and testing,) and intrude into the domain of philosophy of science (drawing conclusions about what their data means) without sufficient training in philosophical disciplines to draw their conclusions responsibly. This is the lens through which I see every issue I study, because it is the rationally-justified way to look at the world, in a way that unquestioning, uncritical appeals to authority, and the occasional argument ad hominem (like the one highlighted) are not.

P.S.: On a related note, I think this reply gives me more gratification than any other, because here, the words "sophomoric" and "pedantic" are basically being used as insults, outside of their established definitions, and it's unusual for a debater to resort to insults if they have any further arguments to bring to the table.

P.P.S.: I say this, because it is neither ostentatiously-concerned for book learning and rules, nor is it lacking in maturity or good judgment to present reasoned arguments that contradict the conclusion that you want me to reach.
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Old 01-15-2018, 03:32 AM   #95
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So instead of complaining about the lack of true, unconditional Fat Acceptance on the Internet, you should instead be asking why a thriving movement fizzled unless you want to repeat the mistakes of the past.
It doesn't matter why this happened. The only thing that matters is finding or founding a completely fat-normalized environment, by hook or by crook.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Most of us tired of the 100:1 odds of fighting the online trolls and abandoned the poorly moderated online FAc communities, starting back in the Usenet era.
So the solution is simple; just start a new website, and moderate it to the exclusion of fat-criticism. I can't be the first person who's thought of this.
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:10 AM   #96
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So the solution is simple; just start a new website, and moderate it to the exclusion of fat-criticism. I can't be the first person who's thought of this.
There is something they often tell artists/writers out there; if something you want doesn't exist, create it yourself. You've spoken about doing this a few times now and I would encourage you to do so, as you clearly aren't getting what you want out of any of the resources available to you at the moment.
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:26 AM   #97
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There is something they often tell artists/writers out there; if something you want doesn't exist, create it yourself. You've spoken about doing this a few times now and I would encourage you to do so, as you clearly aren't getting what you want out of any of the resources available to you at the moment.
Exactly what I was hinting at. I actually have a couple related projects in the works (and one unrelated one,) but I'll look into what's required as soon as I have a free moment. I will say, however, that for me, moderating fat-critical comments out of existence would be a joy, rather than a chore, so I might well be the best person to do this kind of work (and it sorely needs doing. There's a need that isn't being fulfilled, and easily could be. To me, that's the definition of an economic opportunity.)
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:48 PM   #98
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So the solution is simple; just start a new website, and moderate it to the exclusion of fat-criticism. I can't be the first person who's thought of this.
How are you imagining this website being different than Dims?
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:34 PM   #99
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How are you imagining this website being different than Dims?
The focus would be slightly different, and the participation rules a bit less general. In particular, while weight loss discussions would be permitted, those discussions would need to be done without ever stating or implying the inferiority of fatness.

I feel that claims citing "health" or "beauty" to denigrate fatness would be the most important thing to forbid, outside of actual hate, and I don't say this to discourage discussion, but rather, to help focus it. People can better study the evidence relevant to fatness if they're not being pressured, in the same breath, to pass judgment on its worth.

Of course, actual hatred would be strongly moderated, as on many other boards all over the place.

Any person could make a judgment on something any other person said or did, of course, but judgments on general categories of people would need to be reviewed, and possibly moderated. I say this because, as I've said before, we're not just dealing with fat people here, but also with people who have non-standard emotional states, and who are frequently treated shamefully, even among those they admire. Shaming of either type of person, or of anyone else for something that's not under their control, would be grounds for, at least, a temporary ban.

The overall goals of this sort of community would be to forge an environment in which people with the common belief that fatness is not inferior can talk and share their similarities, differences and struggles, have irrelevant arguments, debates, discussions, get into fights, trade writings and generally be people able to live like people, while also not feeling like they need to walk on eggshells about the "fat issue." I don't have an entire rule-set written out yet, but I do intend to compose one once the project is a little closer to completion.

As far as titles, I'm thinking of something like Sunshine or Sunlight; "Warm, bright, soft and round. Sunlight in the darkness." Or something along those lines.
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