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Old 04-13-2007, 03:06 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SlackerFA View Post
I don't share the tube-feeding fantasy, but if I did, I expect I'd want it to be something private and intimate -- unlike simple eating pics, it's not something I'd share with the world at large. I don't know how many people tube feed in private, but if, as Tina says, the only ones who expose it publicly Have Issues, that makes me think that the desire to show it off might involve deeper self-esteem problems.
There are people who are introverted and there are people who are not. Some people once they come to terms with something about themselves they want to express themselves and share it with others, glad to have found kindred spirits so to speak. Some express their desires through art - drawing, sketching or painting pictures depicting their fantasies. There are whole groups of people who gather round to share these images and take comfort in knowing there are others who are like them. Taking pictures of yourself with a tube in your mouth or lying on a mountain of empty pizza boxes, in my view, is just another form of that expression. It's a way to share a part of you that you've been ashamed or embarassed about for so long with people who will understand and appreciate it.

It's you quiet ones who are insane. j/k
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:11 PM   #27
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There's something faulty about having a negative emotion like having your stomach hurt or being embarrassed feel "good." There's something unnatural about wanting to have somewhat painful sex while tied up. Doesn't mean enjoying any of those things are morally wrong. Somewhere along the line, "unnatural" got confused with "morally wrong." Human beings are walking contradictions.
Maybe there's "something unnatural" about having strange sexual turn-ons -- but I agree with Papa Freud: that's because there's something very unnatural about modern industrial civilization. Raise a gregarious savannah primate in an American commuter suburb and it's bound to get all sorts of weird ideas about sex .

But I don't like thinking of it as "unnatural," because, as you said, that word has bad connotations. I try to think of it as "unexpected... and interesting"
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:12 PM   #28
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I do think there's some sort of external trigger that happens to make someone have sexual attachments to external, independent of natural (read: inborn) sexual desires. Hey, maybe (and often) positive experiences, like enjoying playing cowboys and indians. So, perhaps "mental issue" was a bit of a tough term, but a fetish is not inborn. Homosexual/heterosexuality is naturally-occuring and we see it with lots of animals. Only the "rational animal" can form sexual attachments to non-sexual objects, and no, puppies humping a pillow does not count.

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I don't agree with you at all. From your reasoning about 100% of the peoplewho participate in the bdsm lifestyle would have mental issues and that's not a true statement.

I'm a well educated, professional, confident woman who LOVES hearing certain things in the bedroom and yes I crave it as well. That doesn't mean I'm mentally unstable. It doesn't mean that it's unnatural for me to feel that way. It just means that I like something that's not considered "the norm."

It could be said that homosexuality is unnatural, or that being an FA is unnatural, or like excessively thin women is unnatural. I don't believe it has anything to do with one's mental health.



I agree that mental health is a serious issue and not one to take lightly. But hell, if everything "unnatural" was a basis, we'd all be in the looney bin.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:14 PM   #29
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Maybe there's "something unnatural" about having strange sexual turn-ons -- but I agree with Papa Freud: that's because there's something very unnatural about modern industrial civilization. Raise a gregarious savannah primate in an American commuter suburb and it's bound to get all sorts of weird ideas about sex .

But I don't like thinking of it as "unnatural," because, as you said, that word has bad connotations. I try to think of it as "unexpected... and interesting"
Precisely. Wearing pants in hot weather, for example: TOTALLY unnatural. Would I say it's a bad thing? Hell no.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:14 PM   #30
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I do think there's some sort of external trigger that happens to make someone have sexual attachments to external, independent of natural (read: inborn) sexual desires. Hey, maybe (and often) positive experiences, like enjoying playing cowboys and indians. So, perhaps "mental issue" was a bit of a tough term, but a fetish is not inborn. Homosexual/heterosexuality is naturally-occuring and we see it with lots of animals. Only the "rational animal" can form sexual attachments to non-sexual objects, and no, puppies humping a pillow does not count.
Submission can be "inborn" and many of the activities that go along with it can be as well. Who's to say that it isn't natural and is a mental issue?
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:16 PM   #31
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I want to know (and maybe the statistics here would be skewered) that feederism seems to be a purely Western, industrialized nations fantasy. We have so much, could this really exist without our total overconsumption of all resources?

I have more opinions on the actual "lifestyle" but that's for another time.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:19 PM   #32
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I want to know (and maybe the statistics here would be skewered) that feederism seems to be a purely Western, industrialized nations fantasy. We have so much, could this really exist without our total overconsumption of all resources?

I have more opinions on the actual "lifestyle" but that's for another time.
I would assume that feederism has been around for centuries. Think about it..it's only within the last 60 something years that being thin has become such a norm in our society. In the past, being robust was a sign of wealth. It would seem to me that there were probably many a man that enjoyed seeing someone eat and enjoy eating without worrying about every damn calorie and some women were probably encouraged to eat so that they could flaunt their wealth. That's just my opinion.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:23 PM   #33
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Default Eh.

I subscribe to the fairly boring notion that "normal" is what happens between consenting adults, in private, where nobody gets hurt. (Obviously removing intentional pain such as in BDSM.)

I really don't need to understand why I like what I like, or really want to know why other people are how they are. There is a massive range of fetishism including the sound of latex, chewing ice, popping balloons, tube feeding, amputees, and heaven knows what else. If you're not into something, of course it'll seem weird. For that matter, if you ARE into something you may think it's weird.

Really...so what?
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:24 PM   #34
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It's you quiet ones who are insane. j/k
Heh, guilty as charged

You and Misty are right -- and I realize that I'm not taking my own advice I'm generalizing from Tina's discomfort, and my own indifference, to assume that everyone finds tube feeding degrading or at least embarrassing. I don't have sufficient grounds to assume that.

Especially not when my subjective experience of Lilly's post does a total backflip in the course of one sentence. "Tube-feeding, meh... wait, an empty mountain of pizza boxes? HOT HOT HOT! Where can I get those? "
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:29 PM   #35
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I suppose I am a hypocrite-- I believe in total body autonomy (it's your body to do as your please) but don't understand why people would want to go to such extremes to gain massive amounts of weight. Fantasy is one thing but as a very fat woman I know the struggles and realities from not fitting into places to more intimate hygeine issues. I've also met men who are totally into this thing and have no regards towards women, their bodies whatsoever. They could care less about someone gaining tons of weight which could possibly have some health reprecussions. I think so many live in that fantasy world that they don't regard the person outside of their physical existence. I also realize assholes are assholes regardless of their personal kink but I see this strain of subtle abuse/misogyny run rampant through this community.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:29 PM   #36
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I would assume that feederism has been around for centuries. Think about it..it's only within the last 60 something years that being thin has become such a norm in our society. In the past, being robust was a sign of wealth. It would seem to me that there were probably many a man that enjoyed seeing someone eat and enjoy eating without worrying about every damn calorie and some women were probably encouraged to eat so that they could flaunt their wealth. That's just my opinion.
There are entire African villages dedicated to it. I had a calendar hanging in my kitchen last year depicting African women of different tribal clans from several regions. A few of the women had thick wide beaded bangles around their necks and some stacked on their legs from ankle to thigh to create the illusion of rolls on the body to attract the attention of men looking to choose a wife. Similar practices can be found in many native customs. On the contrary, it is the western influenced world that is so obsessed with being trim and rationing their food even though there is plenty to go around.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:31 PM   #37
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I subscribe to the fairly boring notion that "normal" is what happens between consenting adults, in private, where nobody gets hurt. (Obviously removing intentional pain such as in BDSM.)

I really don't need to understand why I like what I like, or really want to know why other people are how they are. There is a massive range of fetishism including the sound of latex, chewing ice, popping balloons, tube feeding, amputees, and heaven knows what else. If you're not into something, of course it'll seem weird. For that matter, if you ARE into something you may think it's weird.

Really...so what?
Hey, some people find these questions intrinsically interesting. I don't feel the need to understand how an internal combustion engine works, but some people think about nothing else
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:31 PM   #38
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Yes, but that seems more like ritual rather than a sexual fixtation. I saw that documentary on the Discovery (I believe) channel.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:31 PM   #39
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Submission can be "inborn" and many of the activities that go along with it can be as well. Who's to say that it isn't natural and is a mental issue?
Excluding domination, all the other ones are based on external or situational things: Bondage is about physical restraint. Masochism, the desire to be humiliated, or sadism, the desire to humiliate, are not inborn. Those are learned. Someone may have a LEANING towards being submissive or dominant, but no one just naturally wakes up and thinks being tied up would get them off. At some point, a situation occurs that makes them say, "Hey, this is fun. Maybe unnatural is a bad word, but it's not innate.

I could go on about this, just because I think it's interesting. I think sexual activities that involve social implications and roles are fascinating, and that's why I enjoy talking to people from the BDSM community. I don't think most people from the community are perverts, but I do think that when someone says, "Oh, I was born a Dom/me or a sub," well, no. They were born with certain personality traits, sure, and ASSUMED a role. No one is born to like bondage. It's an acquired taste. Does that mean once a connection is made, it's easy, or even a good idea to sever it? No. Enjoy it. Safe, sane, consensual BDSM can be a blast, but it ain't preprogrammed into us.

For people into EXTREME humiliation/dangerous pain or being immobilized, I consider that something that needs to be delved into. Guy who enjoys being trampled? Not so much. He had a positive experience and made a connection. Cool. Not the same thing as heterosexuality/homosexuality.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:40 PM   #40
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Hey, some people find these questions intrinsically interesting. I don't feel the need to understand how an internal combustion engine works, but some people think about nothing else
I agree, I think it's just very interesting to hear views and standpoints from different sides of this issue. I'm sure there are those who don't, and that's fine, but I'm a dissector, and I always like to delve into the brains around see what makes them tick.

I'm curious by nature, so discussions like this and others are a natural extension of that curiosity. I'm glad people are discussing it respectfully and frankly... it's been interesting so far.

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Old 04-13-2007, 03:41 PM   #41
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Yes, but that seems more like ritual rather than a sexual fixtation. I saw that documentary on the Discovery (I believe) channel.
Well there are two ways that this is expressed. Some villages do the bangles on the body, others send their daughters to places where the people in charge force feed them to make them fat so that they can get a decent man. It's a mixed brood there. Being healthy and robust is revered and coveted, yet you have to be busy and useful. If you are lazy that is when being fat becomes unattractive and you are subject to ridicule and scorn. It is mostly moderation and not to extremes though. Weather the extremes exist in these native cultures one never knows. It's a slim chance one of them will surf the internet and come here to tell us. I do know that I get a lot of attention from African men. My parents tease me about it.
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:43 PM   #42
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I'm not sure if you're talking about this thread, or the last one?
Both, I guess, though mostly the last one. Given that I am the one who really brought up mental instability, and that my posts have been used most often as examples to rail against, it's hard not to think that, whether it's intended or not.
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I think very few people here will be in total agreement about much of anything, but I think it's helpful to hear all the different views/takes on something that is so controversial... even here where it has some sort of "home".
I'm not sure it has a home here, AM, as easily as people pile on if the PC thing isn't said. I'm hoping that this thread might be different.

I certainly don't expect others to agree with me, but only not to mis-characterize what I have said and attack based upon that.
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You answered your own question, smart ass.

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Note: I think immobilization, force-feeding, and feederism are different things. Not saying they're all the same.
I agree, and I think so much is about intent.
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Ehh, I'm starting to ramble. Regarding Tina's comment, though, that the only tube feeding pics she's seen are of otherwise unstable women, I think that has less to do with feederism and more to do with the culture of Internet exhibitionism.
See, that's the thing, I don't know what it has to do with. I suspect some certainly are people who do it because of some dysfunctional reason. Fact is, if one is doing something that is leading intentionally to self harm, that isn't exactly healthy in any sense of the word. It's possible there are some who do it for little temporary kicks, or just, as you say, because of the culture of internet exhibitionism. I have no way of knowing, really, but did notice the commonalities of tube feeding and mental illness regarding what I have seen and read. It's something that isn't really discussed. And I can see why -- one misstep and it's a pile-on. I can see how my initial post might have come off as judgemental, just the way I said it; but I really did not mean to be snarky even if it came off that way.
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I don't share the tube-feeding fantasy, but if I did, I expect I'd want it to be something private and intimate -- unlike simple eating pics, it's not something I'd share with the world at large. I don't know how many people tube feed in private, but if, as Tina says, the only ones who expose it publicly Have Issues, that makes me think that the desire to show it off might involve deeper self-esteem problems.
I never said that "the only ones who expose it publicly Have Issues," but more that that is all *I* have seen, and I would never claim to have seen it all, that's for sure. I don't know about the rest, or what you say about self-esteem issues, but I'm guessing that if someone is also doing other, serious, things to harm themselves, it could be an issue.
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Originally Posted by LillyBBBW View Post
I think that there will be a hypersentitivity around this subject for a long time. If I stated that every person I've ever known who likes to tan has exhibited some form of mental deficiency I'm sure I would get a good talking to, even if what I'm saying is true according to my experiences.
I think that might be too much of a generalization, right? I mean, the only similarities I can see is if the person is talking about wanting to die and of the various ways they harm themselves, and that tanning is part of that. And then they go to something like this extreme:


It's all context and intent, IMO.
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EDIT: By the way, I hope my posts aren't coming off as hostile or angry. I'm not. I'm just saying stuff.
No, you're not, to my mind anyway.
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:01 PM   #43
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Default Just my thoughts...

The thing that makes feederism so intertwined with sexuality is that eating is such a carnal pleasure like sex, it is almost as hedonistic of a pleasure to eat as it is to have sex. You can eat to the point where you make yourself sick and you can have sex to the point where you injure yourself. I think that two people eating and gaining weight together is probably the most sensual thing next to having sex. Two people feeding each other chocolate... what's wrong with that? Feederism, to the point of immobility is simply an extreme form of feederism, just like anything else taken to an extreme; there are consequences that will occur. I don't think there is anything perverse or bad about feederism per se, you can take anything to an extreme and have negative consequences put upon yourself or upon others.

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Old 04-13-2007, 04:05 PM   #44
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The thing that makes feederism so intertwined with sexuality is that eating is such a carnal pleasure like sex, it is almost as hedonistic of a pleasure to eat as it is to have sex. You can eat to the point where you make yourself sick and you can have sex to the point where you injure yourself. I think that two people eating and gaining weight together is probably the most sensual thing next to having sex. Two people feeding each other chocolate... what's wrong with that? Feederism, to the point of immobility is simply an extreme form of feederism, just like anything else taken to an extreme; there are consequences that will occur. I don't think there is anything perverse or bad about feederism per se, you can take anything to an extreme and have negative consequences put upon yourself or upon others.

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Well said, I agree with that.
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:09 PM   #45
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I think that might be too much of a generalization, right? I mean, the only similarities I can see is if the person is talking about wanting to die and of the various ways they harm themselves, and that tanning is part of that. And then they go to something like this extreme:


It's all context and intent, IMO.

No, you're not, to my mind anyway.
My scenario was hypothetical. I'm not into tanning. I think it's dangerous and ruins the skin, just my opinion. Most people who do it are very level headed people save for a few exceptions. One is bipolar and has been in and out of the hospital and had several suicide attempts, the other is an alcoholic and a druggie. I saw the alcoholic one day and she looked wonderful. I told her so and she immediately started to put herself down saying she hadn't been tanning in a while and she felt pale as a ghost. That's when it hit me: the tanning actually highlights the wrinkles in her face and around her eyes. That's why I thought she looked so good.

My two friends are whackos. If they were the only two people I knew who tanned, and given my dim view of tanning as a whole I might begin to question the sanity of people who tan. It's my belief that it is dangerous, it ruins the skin plus I have rosacea and my skin takes a sore beating from the sun. I have no understanding of the practice. I'm not sure if we're talking about a person who has publicly declared that they want to die and that they are intentionally trying to tan themselves to death. Their desire to die and their desire to tan may be completely unrelated.

EDIT: I meant to hit preview but I hit post by accident. Some folks may have a death wish through feeding themselves to death but for many it's completely unrelated.
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:24 PM   #46
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People should be able to make whatever decision is right for them without having their sanity or intelligence called into question as long as they are fully aware of the risks and are fully prepared to face the possible consequences for their actions.
That's the rub...until you are extremely fat you have NO IDEA what it's like, what the consequences are. Twenty-five pounds ago I was a different person...it takes so little, really, to take things from fun and games to a serious change in your moment-to-moment life. An intentional gainer might say "Yes, I know that high blood pressure, diabetes, and mobility issues can occur; I'm aware." But they aren't feeling those things; they remain abstract until they happen. I'm not even talking being housebound or bedridden...you just don't know where that line is for you until you cross it...and then what? How sexy is it if you find one day you can't reach your own ass to wipe it? How sexy is it to not be able to walk very far at all without pain from joints or your back? How sexy is it to have all your furniture breaking down from you being so heavy? Sure, I know there are some that get turned on by those very things...but are they the ones with hygiene issues, joint pain, back pain, and a house full of crappy looking furniture?

Some fantasies should stay fantasies. People can have all the fantasies they want and more power to them; play-act at it till your heart's content. Extreme weight gain is not like a submissive's collar that you can remove when it's time to go off to work or out to the grocery store...pounds of weight are far harder to remove (if you can remove them at all).

I think I have a different view than a lot of feeders/feedees in that I think I'd really like the nurturing aspect of having a feeder. The thought of a man bringing me goodies to eat and keeping me satisfied holds a lot of appeal to me. Weight gain does not. Extreme weight gain scares me; it does not arouse or titillate me in the least. I don't understand it...but I don't understand a lot of fetishes. I don't think the man who gets aroused by high-heeled boots is mentally compromised, but a man or woman who gets aroused by his or her partner being unable to participate in daily life, or a woman or man who gets aroused by abdicating mobility...that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:33 PM   #47
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I've found as a FA there is an ongoing tension between fantasy and reality. I also believe that the harmony between these two sides isn't fixed. It moves around for each person, each relationship, and each situation. In the realm of feeding/gaining, I would more specifically define this tension as being between wanting more and having enough.
First of all, excellent post, bigplaidpants. Yet another shining example of what a wonderful person you are.

I would completely agree with this statement, or as bigplaidpants put it, this concept. I believe that it is a matter of fact that the differences between fantasy and reality, and the surrounding barriers in which subject them to "beyond" the point of no return, move around from person to person.

I also believe that, as many people have said throughout Dimensions, Feeders/Feedees are not necessarily 'Fat Admirers', nor are 'Fat Admirers' necessarily Feeders (or Feedees, for that matter). However, I would speculate that a great deal of Feeders and Feedees would be into some form of 'Fat Admiration'. Also, I am not sure who would see it in my perspective and who would not, but I do not see Feederism strictly having anything, in concrete, about being into weight gain. I believe that many Feeders, and Feeders mind you, have no desire to experience or "help" another person gain weight. I believe a person that has a desire for food, and/or a desire to see someone eat food, in a purely sexual standpoint, may want nothing to do with gaining weight.

I'm not sure how large in numbers (no pun intended) those people are in this world, but I'm not going to really delve into that either.

I feel that if a woman is a feedee, that does not necessarily mean that she wants to gain weight and might find gaining weight erotic. That's my simple explanation. Rather, I would call them gainers, as has been said before. I also feel that if a man is a feeder, that does not necessarily mean that he is a person that likes very fat women, or has any desire at all to witness his feedee to gain any weight at all.

I also believe that a person who wants to gain weight intentionally, whether that amount is in "Under 100 pounds" category, or "above 500 pounds", or whatever amount, does not place them into a mentally unstable outfit, either. Everyone has their things, some more extreme than others, some very vague and almost nonexistant. I would not say that a woman with a feeding tube in her mouth constitutes her as being mentally unstable, nor would I say that she has the feeding tube in her mouth because of some deep inner emotional outrage. It might just be a passion she has, and wishes to indulge every once in a while.

Also, I would not say that a woman who wants to gain an extreme amount of weight is mentally unstable, either. Being mentally unstable is another way of saying "there is something wrong with that person" - What basis does any person have to say that said person is wrong, weird, or unnatural? I do not believe there is any normal way of being, acting, or indulging. I would go so far as to say that serial killers are not necessarily crazy, unstable, or otherwise "fucked up" in the head. If that's a thing, then that's their thing. It may be wrong, and may affect so many peoples' lives negatively, but that does not make them emotionally ...... (I really cannot think of the word that I am looking for right now, so I will go ahead and, yet again, say) unstable.

I will not go further into that, either, because I am not saying that serial killers are entitled to killing many people.

I am no more normal than a woman who has a strong desire, be it erotic or just a dream, to gain 5000 pounds. It is what it is. Right and Wrong, Positive and Negative, Normal and Strange vary from person to person. That is what makes the human race so unique, in my opinion.

I've got quite a headache from not being able to word it as properly as I would have liked.
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:52 PM   #48
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Health, health, health - most important concern in that temptating fantasy (for me). I would never ever ask somebody to gain on purpose for me - no way. I don't want anybody taking consequences of my decisions or choices. If my partner want to do it... i'm ok with it but still would be concerned about health and wouldn't like her to cross health/mobility/good living standart barier. It's also comming from me being selfish - I want partner not somebody totally depended on me... cause it wont be fun. So concluding + couple pounds, yes it's cute, + couple houndred pounds and major effect on health, life quality etc. no way... not a nice thing for me.... I see feeding more like time to time roleplay... more or less frequently... it can turn both people on and have no side effects.
I don't want to insult anybody here... people who are gaining a lot or gained on purpose - you know better how to live your life... it is just my privat opinion...and I hope you are very happy now!
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:04 PM   #49
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I cannot speak for them. I have no choice but to take their word for it that they are happy and well. For everthing there is something to compensate. Their are bidets, shower handles, king sized beds, ramps, scooters, supplements, washing instruments, etc. You don't want that and I don't blame you, yet there are people who are willing and able to adjust. Are they insane? Maybe about as insane as the person who is having their third suspicious mole removed or the NFL player who can't wait to recover from the surgery, multiple fractures and concussion so he can get back on the playing field and into position again. About as crazy as the retired general who lost his leg in the war and considers it a worthy sacrifice for his country. I dont relate to any of that but it's not my call.


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That's the rub...until you are extremely fat you have NO IDEA what it's like, what the consequences are. Twenty-five pounds ago I was a different person...it takes so little, really, to take things from fun and games to a serious change in your moment-to-moment life. An intentional gainer might say "Yes, I know that high blood pressure, diabetes, and mobility issues can occur; I'm aware." But they aren't feeling those things; they remain abstract until they happen. I'm not even talking being housebound or bedridden...you just don't know where that line is for you until you cross it...and then what? How sexy is it if you find one day you can't reach your own ass to wipe it? How sexy is it to not be able to walk very far at all without pain from joints or your back? How sexy is it to have all your furniture breaking down from you being so heavy? Sure, I know there are some that get turned on by those very things...but are they the ones with hygiene issues, joint pain, back pain, and a house full of crappy looking furniture?

Some fantasies should stay fantasies. People can have all the fantasies they want and more power to them; play-act at it till your heart's content. Extreme weight gain is not like a submissive's collar that you can remove when it's time to go off to work or out to the grocery store...pounds of weight are far harder to remove (if you can remove them at all).

I think I have a different view than a lot of feeders/feedees in that I think I'd really like the nurturing aspect of having a feeder. The thought of a man bringing me goodies to eat and keeping me satisfied holds a lot of appeal to me. Weight gain does not. Extreme weight gain scares me; it does not arouse or titillate me in the least. I don't understand it...but I don't understand a lot of fetishes. I don't think the man who gets aroused by high-heeled boots is mentally compromised, but a man or woman who gets aroused by his or her partner being unable to participate in daily life, or a woman or man who gets aroused by abdicating mobility...that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:25 PM   #50
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I just wanted to ditto what Ripley said. I think even knowing what the potential consequences of significant weight gain are, doesn't mean someone really appreciates what that really means. And I'm not suggesting people are stupid, just that as concepts, the problems seem so far off, and it is so easy to convince oneself that they won't happen to you.

the other issues for me are: while its possible gaining will have no health or other ramifications, they are likely and you never know when they will hit. Will you start having back problems at 250? Blood pressure problems at 275? Diabetes at 300? Apnea at 350, maybe walking will be painful at even lower weights. And the other issue, your problems may not resolve with loss.

So I guess the short of it is, unless you really can think about a life withg these and other problems, I'm not sure how meaningful the concept of informed consent is for this situation.
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