Dimensions Forums  
Home Register Premium Membership Stories Ye Olde Library Health Issues Market Place Big Fashion

Go Back   Dimensions Forums > Discussion > FA/FFA forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-08-2014, 08:27 AM   #1
Tad
mostly harmless
 
Tad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,873
Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default Fat activism as a public good? (Fa/FFA perspective )

There are a lot of times where there are conflicts between Ďprivate goodí and Ďpublic good.í Iím sure someone who has studied philosophy could explain this better, but one example is catalytic converters on cars, which reduce some of the harmful pollution they put out. The converter is expensive, and reduces your carís fuel mileage, while the amount of pollution that your individual car puts out isnít very big, so you donít really have much incentive to have one on your car--but it is a public good when everyone has them on their car and our air is less harmful to breathe.

Another classic example is using public transit--in most cases it is faster and more convenient to drive oneself, but on the other hand if enough people use public transit then traffic is better, pollution is lower, etc.

For the most part, Iím a big believer in emphasizing public goods. It is important not to be totalitarian about such things too much, and of course what is the public good can be debated in many situations. But overall Iíd rather make some personal sacrifices to enjoy a better society, ambiance, and environment.

What recently occurred to me is that this is a way to model a lot of activism. In most cases putting yourself out there to promote a cause is not a private good--it takes time, subjects you to attacks, may polarize people around you and could even have an impact on things like employment. On the other hand, for a lot of causes having activists out there, promoting the issue, is a public good, in that attitudes and behavior may not change without their activity.

Which of course brings me to the issue of how to live my life as a fat admirer and believer in size acceptance. I love fat in all sorts of ways:I like it on me and on people around me, I find fat bodies to be erotic and the enjoyment of fat even more so, and I broadly have positive associations with fatness in all sorts of ways. Iím pretty much a fat fan-boy.

BUT, I mostly keep that to myself. When I first noticed a girl in THAT way, she was the pudgiest girl in our class--and I already knew that wasnít cool, and I knew I was in no way ready to date anyone, so I never revealed my crush. Heck, in my teen years I kept my sexuality so thoroughly private that some friends began to wonder if I was gay. These days Iím married to a BBW and make no secret of the fact that Iím attracted to her, and Iím pretty apologetically roly-poly myself, but I really donít talk about it. If anything, I avoid the topic.

Iíve always told myself that it was enough to just live a fat-friendly life without apologies, that there was no need to agitate or proselytize--that there was no need to stick out and risk getting hammered down.

But now that Iím thinking about such issues in terms of private good and public good, I suddenly find myself questioning thirty-five years of keeping my head down. To be consistent with my believe in contributing to the public good in other areas, I should probably be doing more around size acceptance. The alternative is, of course, to accept that Iím a hypocrite, willing to make sacrifices that are easy for me to make, but not willing to make the ones that are much more uncomfortable.

I donít really know where this new way of looking at things is going to take me. While I ponder, I welcome thoughts and comments from others.
- Do you agree that activism is a public good?
- What is the best way for the average Joe to support size acceptance?
- Any other thoughts/observations?
__________________
"Happiness and Beauty are by-products."
-- George Bernard Shaw
Tad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2014, 10:02 AM   #2
Dr. Feelgood
intellectual nerd
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: the Twilight Zone
Posts: 5,032
Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.Dr. Feelgood has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

You do not impress me as being a hypocrite, but an introvert (the fact that you're agonizing about whether activism is your duty increases this impression: most of my extravert friends, like the shoe ad, "just do it"). As an introvert myself, I too have agonized over this same question: here are my conclusions (so far).

(1) Do what you're comfortable with. If, out of a sense of duty, you go too far beyond your comfort zone, you will not only be ineffective, but you will come to be resentful of the very cause you're working for. I've been there.

(2) Do what you're best at. Maybe you're a dynamite public speaker, but you may be more effective working one-on-one. If so, you'll probably have greater success just talking with people informally.

(3) Model the behavior you hope to see. One of the things I realized early in my teaching career is that my students aren't just watching and listening when I lecture; they're ALWAYS watching and listening. This is just human nature: when we're unsure of ourselves in a situation, we look at others to see how they're handling it. And we're all unsure of ourselves a lot of the time. So understand that others are watching you all the time and learning from you: the
most powerful thing anyone can do (IMO) is to practice what he preaches, every day in every way.

(4) Your posts on Dimensions have done more for size acceptance than you can ever know. Trust me on this.

I hope this helps.
__________________
Now all you women,
Don't you come around
Unless you weigh
'Bout fo' hundred pound...
-- Dr. Feelgood & the Interns

Last edited by Dr. Feelgood; 01-08-2014 at 10:04 AM.
Dr. Feelgood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 12:06 AM   #3
Jah
Veggie girl
 
Jah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 830
Jah makes people happy simply by logging inJah makes people happy simply by logging inJah makes people happy simply by logging inJah makes people happy simply by logging inJah makes people happy simply by logging inJah makes people happy simply by logging inJah makes people happy simply by logging inJah makes people happy simply by logging inJah makes people happy simply by logging in
Default

I do agree that activism is a public good and the right thing to do.

I think how a person supports size acceptance should really depend on the person. My way of doing things is to be open and proud of being an FFA and that's I probably all I can do because I'm too much of a nerd and geek to influence anyone in any other way. But if a person has good social skills then there is a lot more they can do. For instance, trying to get other people such as friends to become activists and think more positively of fat people (I personally don't know how to do that).

I suppose an FFA being open about fat people's rights has less social stigma than an FA doing it. That has been my experience anyway.
__________________
Violet Dolphin Art
Damian's Writings
:)
Jah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 03:50 PM   #4
Webmaster
Chief Emeritus
 
Webmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Knoxville, TN area
Posts: 0
Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad View Post
There are a lot of times where there are conflicts between Ďprivate goodí and Ďpublic good.í....
That is a really excellent post, Tad. Of course, almost all of your posts are really excellent. I wish I hadn't believed you when I tried to recruit you a couple or three years ago as a moderator and you told me your job situation was going to change such that you wouldn't have time for Dims anymore.... ;-)

Anyway, the line of thought you present is often on my own mind, and especially so when I contemplate Dimensions. And before that, when I contemplated NAAFA and all the endless hours I spent running its board of directors for all those years. Does it matter? Does it make a difference? Are we just fooling ourselves? Could we do so much better? We endlessly discussed then-fashionable management/business issues (doing the right thing vs. doing things right, etc., etc.) and so on and so forth.

But absolutely nothing is ever totally right or wrong. If you've travelled Europe, you know that public transportation can make complete and total sense. But it requires a certain density to work. In many places in the US it doesn't work at all, and is just a money pit.

And then how to go about the pursuit or public or private good? Methodical? Educational? Brute force? In-your-face? Through legislation? There's no one recipe. Even eminently reasonable endeavors can become iffy. The catalytic converters and all the other effort to make cars cleaner and more efficient have really made a difference (it's really computers that made most of the difference, but that's another issue). So it's all good, BUT folks find a way around it by simply migrating to giant Ford Excretions and other 6,000 pound SUVs, burning just as much gas as the old guzzlers. And even small vehicles get less gas mileage than they should because they're stuffed full of luxury and frippery and butt warmers and 48 air bags and self-parking systems and backup cameras.

Dimensions? I like to think it does good, or else I wouldn't have perpetuated it for going on 30 years. But does it, really? I don't know.

One just never knows.
Webmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:19 PM   #5
wrestlingguy
No more Mr. Nice Guy
 
wrestlingguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,669
wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!wrestlingguy keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default

I think this is a great thread, but my concern is that it's going to get lost here, since fat activism is typically not simply an issue for FAs.

I think that while Tad's questions may relate to him (and some others of "us"), I also think that the women here could contribute much to this thread, even in discussion of the men's perceptions.

Can this thread be moved to the Main Board, where others have a better chance of seeing it? (assuming Tad and the evil overlords agree with me)
__________________
"O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet." ~ Saint Augustine
wrestlingguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2014, 08:15 AM   #6
Webmaster
Chief Emeritus
 
Webmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Knoxville, TN area
Posts: 0
Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.Webmaster has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Yes, it will get lost here, but if it's one the main board, it'll also get lost or it'll turn into a slugfest like the one that began over Zsa.

We can move it if you guys feel that's a good idea, so let me know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
I think this is a great thread, but my concern is that it's going to get lost here, since fat activism is typically not simply an issue for FAs.

I think that while Tad's questions may relate to him (and some others of "us"), I also think that the women here could contribute much to this thread, even in discussion of the men's perceptions.

Can this thread be moved to the Main Board, where others have a better chance of seeing it? (assuming Tad and the evil overlords agree with me)
Webmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2014, 08:36 AM   #7
Tad
mostly harmless
 
Tad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,873
Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

I was looking at this issue as primarily an FA one.

- As many BBW/BHM have pointed out over the years, they can't hide their association with fat. They can hate it or they can love it and they can be honest with people about their feelings on the topic or not.....but in a society where fat is such a moral/political issue, just by being fat they are implicitly involved in that discussion.

- For FAs who are not particularly fat themselves, there is much more of a choice. Of course assuming you actually get involved with a fat partner you are at least somewhat involved in that discussion, but it doesn't have to be all the time, the way that it is for people who stand out due to their size.

That difference makes the discussion a very different one, I think, for FA versus BBW/BHM. So I would prefer that this post stay on the FA board, even if it is a lower traffic location.
__________________
"Happiness and Beauty are by-products."
-- George Bernard Shaw
Tad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2014, 05:02 PM   #8
CastingPearls
Go Big Or Go Home
 
CastingPearls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Possum Grape, AR
Posts: 15,184
CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Maybe you can put a sticky on it so it stays at the top of the forum?
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]http://castingpearls-blowingbubbles.blogspot.com/

Free me, free yourself
A life of sacrifice controlled me
But those promises I made
No longer hold me
Mercurial more wayward by the hour
The shackles fall away I'm in your power



People throw rocks at things that shine.
CastingPearls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 03:00 PM   #9
Azrael
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ontario
Posts: 131
Azrael does more than just post hot picsAzrael does more than just post hot picsAzrael does more than just post hot picsAzrael does more than just post hot pics
Default

Different people have different priorities.

Not everyone is going to get too involved in one issue or another but some people do get quite involved.

For the average Joe what you can hope for is that they'll call out others in their BS, treat fat people as people, and maybe try to spread the word a tad and pay lip-service via donations (or something).

People have their own little niches that they'll get involved in. For some it's poverty, others it's AIDS, homelessness, and for some it's fat activism. Can't expect too much out of others as it may not be their main focus of activism.
Azrael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2014, 03:39 PM   #10
drew_edwards
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 77
drew_edwards has said some nice things
Default

Not quite the same thing, but I wish more people would speak up about being an "FA."
drew_edwards is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2014, 04:05 PM   #11
Tad
mostly harmless
 
Tad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,873
Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drew_edwards View Post
Not quite the same thing, but I wish more people would speak up about being an "FA."
I think that is the first step of what I'm talking about (although I'm trying to look at it from beyond just FA)
__________________
"Happiness and Beauty are by-products."
-- George Bernard Shaw
Tad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2014, 05:46 PM   #12
drew_edwards
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 77
drew_edwards has said some nice things
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad View Post
I think that is the first step of what I'm talking about (although I'm trying to look at it from beyond just FA)
Agreed. Although I think the social stigma of being attracted to plus-sized women is really sad.
drew_edwards is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2014, 06:11 PM   #13
tonynyc
Slow Dance Aficionado
 
tonynyc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: East Coast
Posts: 9,921
tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Tad it's also a good move to at least have the discussion in this forum where a meaningful conversation can occur without the pseudo-psychoanalysis and other sorts of "comments" can derail things.

There are so many ways that one can be an activist.

1.just having this forum and Dimensions
2. WrestlingGuy when you and your great cohorts hosted those great events.
3. Just having more folks who do speak up and our proud to be a FA and to heck with those that feel otherwise
4. Being able to reach that point where you are proud to be with your significant other and to heck with those that feel otherwise
5. Sharing knowledge on how folks can feel proud about what they feel
__________________
Doughboy gets ripped :D

[SIGPIC]http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/image.php?u=841&type=sigpic&dateline=1258169105[/SIGPIC]
tonynyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2014, 11:17 AM   #14
Blockierer
FAntastic
 
Blockierer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,136
Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!Blockierer keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default

- Do you agree that activism is a public good?
I agree!
But, why are all those fat lovers in the closet or so silent? That's the question.
__________________
*Blockie*
Blockierer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2014, 03:24 PM   #15
tonynyc
Slow Dance Aficionado
 
tonynyc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: East Coast
Posts: 9,921
tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.tonynyc has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blockierer View Post
- Do you agree that activism is a public good?
I agree!
But, why are all those fat lovers in the closet or so silent? That's the question.
the pseudo-psychoanalyst committee for starters
__________________
Doughboy gets ripped :D

[SIGPIC]http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/image.php?u=841&type=sigpic&dateline=1258169105[/SIGPIC]
tonynyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 09:44 PM   #16
brokemon
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 17
brokemon can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokesbrokemon can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokes
Default

Some very good stuff here- I wanted to jump in with some quick thoughts.

If you want to make the world a better place for biggies and not-so-biggies alike, you've got to worry about the macro and the micro.

So the micro stuff is how you lead your life, the day to day interactions with friends and family. Defend your loved ones, challenge perceptions. Call people out when they are putting people in boxes- making assumptions. Remind people none of us are without challenges and problems, and that we all cope and seek comfort in different ways. Remind people that while this is America, we all start at different distances from the finish line. This country is fair and equal-ish.

The macro stuff, for me anyways, is what I'm doing to help make a better world. I'm not sure that sticking up for biggies is the way to go- you convince some blockhead to change his mind online, and there's 10 more idiots behind them with the same backwards assumptions. We've missed the boat on the sad sack that's convinced a plus sized woman is draining his tax money with wellfare queen booty surgeries. So instead I try to be positive, and try not to be so damn judgmental. I try and give people the benefit of the doubt. If enough of us keep out of that shitty feedback loop of aggression and offense (and all aggression is seeking a reaction) the dickheads of the world start running out of steam.

I guess there is an option 3- wait it out. I feel like we are maybe 12 years out from a Monsanto/big pharma food tipping point where we will all end up fat anyways. The pendulum is always swinging.
brokemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2014, 10:55 AM   #17
bayone
 
bayone's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 384
bayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions communitybayone is a pillar of the Dimensions community
Default

Not sure where else to put this link -- Bitch Magazine gives sensible answer to woman considering WLS. (Short version:"Have it, or not -- it's your body. But you'll probably find that being thin doesn't magically solve all your other problems.")
bayone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2014, 12:16 PM   #18
fat hiker
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Capital of the Great white north
Posts: 1,372
fat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions communityfat hiker is a pillar of the Dimensions community
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokemon View Post
Some very good stuff here- I wanted to jump in with some quick thoughts.

If you want to make the world a better place for biggies and not-so-biggies alike, you've got to worry about the macro and the micro.

So the micro stuff is how you lead your life, the day to day interactions with friends and family. Defend your loved ones, challenge perceptions. Call people out when they are putting people in boxes- making assumptions. Remind people none of us are without challenges and problems, and that we all cope and seek comfort in different ways....

The macro stuff, for me anyways, is what I'm doing to help make a better world. ... So instead I try to be positive, and try not to be so damn judgmental. I try and give people the benefit of the doubt. ....
I like these points, and want to add.

One additional macro point is doing what you can, when there is opportunity, to make the world more comfortable and accessible for bigger folks - for example, we'll be renewing the chairs in our labs soon, and I'm pushing to make sure the new ones don't have arms (some of the current ones do, and they're not size-friendly). Specifying wider doors, wider toilet stalls, outward swinging doors (or pocket doors) and other size-friendly installations (including higher-capacity chairs, adjustable desk heights, etc.) if you have any influence over these helps all larger folk - and, as a plus, helps disable folks too, especially those dependent on wheelchairs, scooters, canes and crutches.

Setting up sites to standards for the disabled just helps everyone - Amtrak, years ago, realised that going to disable standards would help all its passengers - because if you're hefting a heavy suitcase (or two), you're nearly as 'disabled' as the person in a wheelchair!

On the micro level, I find that many of the fatter students in my classes seem either very introverted or just very unwilling to engage - I make a point of giving them time, and being encouraging, and giving them eye contact or other general support - I think a lot of fatter young people feel very beaten down by general societal pressures to look a certain way, and some of their poorer marks reflect a poor self-concept.
__________________
"Eat, Eat! You will gain weight and be more attractive!"
- Russian Tour Hostess of the 1980s, as reported in National Geographic
fat hiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Dimensions Magazine. All rights reserved worldwide.