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Old 04-17-2007, 11:28 PM   #1
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Default Repressed Desires, Distorted Souls

I'm dropping this on the weight board because I think this is where the most of our "deviant desires" hang out and get aired. The more I hang out here, the more I realize there are many on these boards that bear different aspects of FA-ism. Reading parts of the Discussion: Feeders/Feedees and emotions/mentality thread, I realized again that Dims is not just FA's and BBW's or FFA's and BHM's. Some of us bear aspects of each. This is just another FA reflection and confession.

I've been thinking about about repression lately. In particular, I've been thinking about my own experience and repression of certain aspects of gaining/fat attraction. It's caused me to rethink about how muting or blocking certain erotic desires - purposefully or not - can affect someone over the long haul.

Getting older, there have been times when I've had to get in touch with how I dealt with certain of my erotic desires and yearnings (i.e. certain fat fantasies, eroticizing around food, fattening, satiation). I've experienced how really twisted and distorted certain aspects of the self and one's erotic life can be when shaped by unconscious fears that are internalized. To give an example, I trace my being a FA back to my own fantasies of being fat as a kid. These feelings I always kept hidden. Looking back, I can see now how these feelings were some of my first erotic experiences. It was the feeling of desire and attraction to a big/fat body that I first suppressed because I really didn't really understand the feelings I was having. Nor, did I see anyone else exemplifying fat admiration or the sense of fat attraction, beauty, and allure I was feeling. This led to a feeling of being doubly self-conscious as a kid, not only about my feelings of attraction, but also about the size and fatness that aroused them. As a young person, I didn't really have the tools to sort any of this out. Like my fat body, I tried to hid my fat feelings. The awakening of my erotic faculties was enough to deal with anyway. Because fat was a little like the great "unsaid," i.e. better left invisible, I never really learned to talk about my feelings of fat fascination and attraction early on. It wasn't until I got older that I learned to make sense of them.

As I got older, however, my feelings of fat admiration remained considerably muted. I knew I was attracted to large/fat full-bodied girls, but something unconsciously screened the extent of my fat attraction. I knew no other FA's, nor even what an FA was in the late 80's. By high school, the effects of divorce, a suicidal parent, and the pressure to handle alot of freedom as a teenager buried much of my fantasies about being large. (To this day, I think it's my metabolism that makes it really difficult for me to gain much anyway.) I was too much into my friends, working, smoking, drinkin', playing Euchre, and fantasies that sprang from my need to be loved and wanted. ( I was a half-cocked eclectic who loved rap and 80's alternative, but was also a sucker for Journey, Chicago, Air Supply, Toto ) I so deeply internalized the messages "men only want sex" and "you should love your girl no matter what she looks like or you're an asshole," that I really took this attitude to heart. Frankly, I was scared to express my desires for fat girls like "a typical male." And, as a result, my sense of fat-attraction was always put on watch by the real pressure never to admit that I *wanted* fat girls and really only fat girls with particularly fat girls with certain body types. Even though I was, I didn't want to be just another "objectifying dick." Young and naive, this fear kept any overt FAism underdeveloped and under survalance. It wasn't until later that I really began to understand my own sense of fat eroticism and myself as a FA better. When I could look back and make sense of my fat fantasies as a kid, the water binging, my few padding experiments, and the size of the girls I always stayed with that I really saw the fat/size eroticism that I was trying to live into. But, by that point, I had already developed a fairly complicated, contorted, and controlled sense of the erotic. It left me with a kind of tortured sense of it. I was in love with something I couldn't name. I was young and deeply shaped by pressures not to overtly acknowledge fat people, especially their size, shape, and fatness (see the person, not their fat, right?) nor overtly objectify fat women. I see FA's unconsciously make that mistake on this board. In my case, I don't think I was simply some closeted FA. I was relatively large and overweight and had dated mostly fat and overweight girls. Instead, what I most actively repressed was my *overt* fat-attraction. I had not wanted to overtly objectify fat or fat women for what I thought were all the right reasons. Like my childhood fat fantasies, this kept of the most deviant facets of my fat attraction buried underground. It wasn't until college, after my girl-friend had lost some weight, that I finally realized I had to start untangling this old programming one erotic desire at a time.

Around the time of finding Dims in the early 90's, I slowly began to remember and unpack my fat fantasies as a kid, my own fantasies about being fat, aksi my feelings around food and satiation, the eroticism of size and proportion of bodies, and seeing others gain. After years, sometimes I still stop and take inventory of how I'm feeling about what's turning me on. Repressing these desires has the affect of intensifying them. It can make the whole desire to simply have them and make them real come out of whack. It makes the whole responsiblity of FA's and encouragers to discern fantasy from reality all the more important. In sum, squelching one's sense of eroticism can make the power of the erotic all that more wild, powerful, and alluring. I think this is one thing that makes FA-ism run amuck or off into the deep end. Alot more could be said here, and much of it has been said already.

The point of this post is simply to get it out and let others relate if they wish.
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Fat-desire is ever present not because it is permanent, but because it is always coming back.
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:38 PM   #2
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Sheeez....you can type!

I'll get to this post after more sleep. Beware, Mr. Pants, I'll be back.
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Old 04-18-2007, 04:24 AM   #3
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Default so close!

Dear Bigplaid, you seem to have been running over some ground that I recognise lately. Writing this post I have got lost in it, only appreciating the depth of the uncertainty and contradictions as I've written. It is unfinished. I don't know how to draw a narrative line through it or how to conclude. It tails off into a list of thoughts. But I'm going to post it anyway, even if it's not in full sentences.

your use of the phrase 'distorted soul' is appropriate: the attraction to fatness runs right down deep faultline in my mind and character...pressure brought to bear on it, either to deny or to objectify it and make it permanent (I guess for me that means active gaining), levers apart how I feel as a person.

the tension you identified in a previous post between wanting more and having enough is totally central, and while in writing it seems like those two states are permanent and separate entities that will always have to be balanced, one in one hand, the other in another, but in experience they form two phases of a cycle.

which is where the denial of fat-desire (any desire I guess, it's just this is the one I know about!), or it's converse, the chaining of existence to that desire becomes a problem...both those actions make permanent and independant objects of states that are transitory and interdependant.

fat-desire is ever present not because it is permanent, but because it is always coming back.

the body itself is, as ever, the problem and the opportunity here. How does one deal with an entity that is material and if not unchanging, then slow to change, when one is coursing through the cycles of desire? This is sometimes where I wish I was just into being tied up or hit or something. But the direct opposition between my body's stability and my desires to change it according to my changing fantasies presents a chance to face something that is particularly difficult and perhaps liberating.

I have been in a cleft stick these past months. I have been gaining weight, loving it, and beginning to explore an erotic life based on the reality of a fatter body and the fantasies that go with it with my girlfriend. It has been wonderful. But I need to lose some weight for practical reasons-I'm not in medical trouble, I just want to be better at some things that being heavier is setting me back in. And every time I start to turn towards weight loss, the desire to explore a little more what it is like to be fatter comes back so strongly. I have been trapped between two poles of attraction, frozen, not knowing which way to turn. Which is the most exciting place to be in, because there is something about fetishism that is very frozen, very static.

Which is where the twisting of the soul takes place. For me the soul is the feeling of perception, the feeling that comes from living, and it has it's own shape, intricate, absolute and necessary, different in each moment, but by no means random or arbitrary. But this feeling moves in cycles, and the inhibition of these cycles makes me less alive.

When I refuse the experience of stasis, for instance after a night of eating, and fat-inspired sex, going through with the experience without inhibition, my soul feels very near the surface. But eating and fat sex are not spiritual in themselves; something about the perceptual motion that is released by giving in and living the desire is.

to mistake the state of the body for the state of desire

do you identify with your shifting ( and necessarily conflicting desires) or your body? If you identify with your body, you will not hurt yourself.

using the body- arguably a typically masculine or patriarchal thing to do, as opposed to living it's life.

but perhaps the bending of the body to fantasy is something that makes us particularly human, and that some kind of 'noble animal' idea about being with the wisdom of the body is missing the point of what we must be.

to mistake the state of the body for the state of desire

do you identify with your shifting ( and necessarily conflicting desires) or your body? If you identify with your body, you will not hurt yourself.

the body is that which lives, that which percieves. And when motion is granted to desire...fuck knows. This is more difficult than I thought. Something about this goes right down to the bloody centre of what I feel about life, but I can't quite heave it into words. Thanks for opening the thread.
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Old 04-18-2007, 06:02 AM   #4
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Although my experiences were not all the same as your experiences, reading that starting post of this thread I just kept saying 'yes!' to myself over and over again. You nailed this one. I may respond in length later, if I can think of what, if anything, to add.

-Ed

PS. "You must spread some reputation around......" So I owe you!
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Old 04-18-2007, 07:10 AM   #5
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Wow Bigplaid! I could really relate to alot to what you said! Specially, about hiding one's desire for fat women from ridicule but also having that desire fight with the part of your brain that worried that it make you a pervert or as you put it a "objectifying dick".
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:36 PM   #6
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Great post BigPlaid! I can relate to much of what you said, my exception being that I was a thin FA that absolutely couldn't gain weight (and I did try) until getting older. I think repression of ones FA desires is very common in a society that at best views fat attraction as a fetish, with the stigma of perversion implied. I'm so good at repressing my FA desires, I would consider "lock down" to be more descriptive. As you have done, I also set the focus of my life on other things. I think because of this, my sexual desires have remained as such, desires. I don't think my feelings as an FA have evolved to the definition of eroticism so I'll let your writings and that of others be my inspiration. (my feelings of eroticism are so stunted that I needed spell check to move beyond erotism...). One thing though, I do feel that I have evolved to the point as an FA that I no longer let people compromise or deride my values of fat acceptance and appreciation.

I'm still interested in the idea of starting a FA "group" or "society" of some sort. (inclusive - male and female FAs?), but I just don't know how to go about it, or what exactly the focus should be. Somehow showing pride in being an FA needs to move beyond wearing a tee-shirt or having a bumper sticker on ones car (it hasn't even gotten that far actually...).

Maybe this thread could evolve into the genesis of that idea? Just thinkin'...

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Old 04-19-2007, 05:51 AM   #7
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I have nothing to add that wouldn't make me sound like Gomer Pyle in a meeting at The Pentagon. All I can say is if anyone sees Conrad/Webmaster posting anything around here from the sublime to the indecipherable, give him some Rep for it or better yet, drop a few coins in the collection box if you can.

Here's to you Conrad.
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Old 04-19-2007, 05:59 AM   #8
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I have nothing to add that wouldn't make me sound like Gomer Pyle in a meeting at The Pentagon. All I can say is if anyone sees Conrad/Webmaster posting anything around here from the sublime to the indecipherable, give him some Rep for it or better yet, drop a few coins in the collection box if you can.

Here's to you Conrad.
OK, Lilly. I'm confused.

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Fat-desire is ever present not because it is permanent, but because it is always coming back.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:05 AM   #9
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OK, Lilly. I'm confused.

- signed, not the management
This seems a really good thread to me. It really draws attention to what this place Dimesions has meant to a lot of people to be able to come together and exchange thoughts, ideas and expereinces. I've no clue or concept of what it takes to run a site like this or to even have a firm enough belief to undertake such a thing but I know I've learned a lot here and gleaned many things that I never would have otherwise. I just thought it would be as good a time as any to say thank you.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:10 AM   #10
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....One thing though, I do feel that I have evolved to the point as an FA that I no longer let people compromise or deride my values of fat acceptance and appreciation.

....

Stan
No doubt, Stan. Given my FA proclivities, I've always been as pro-fat acceptance and pro-fat appreciation as I knew how to be. I considered myself fat, or at *least* more in the domain of fat than "normal" or "thin." But, more importantly, there was something about accepting myself in pushing for fat acceptance and appreciation. I couldn't accept that my infatuations were taboo.

If there is any repressed desire I still live with, it is more an adolescent one. I *still* want to stop the world and ask it to look whenever I run accross a beautiful fat person, particularly fat women. It's so cheesy, really....like the feeling I got when I crushed on a girl in high school. It's not something I do consciously. I just feel it, akin to the way you'd naturally want everyone to notice an over-plastered Hollywood celeb if you crossed paths at the local grocery store.

I still feel like a school kid sometimes. It's the same feeling I get when I get caught in a stare at magnoliagrows' fatty figure.

Women are right. There's something about male-ness that never grows up.
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Fat-desire is ever present not because it is permanent, but because it is always coming back.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:19 AM   #11
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This seems a really good thread to me. It really draws attention to what this place Dimesions has meant to a lot of people to be able to come together and exchange thoughts, ideas and expereinces. I've no clue or concept of what it takes to run a site like this or to even have a firm enough belief to undertake such a thing but I know I've learned a lot here and gleaned many things that I never would have otherwise. I just thought it would be as good a time as any to say thank you.
Ahhhh. I wondered if your comments kinda referenced Stan's FA site/community idea after I posted my confused response.

Alas, don't you feel stupid when you miss the rather obvious? Thanks....and, sorry. (Think of all the philanthropy work you could have accomplished when you were clarifying things for me?!)

<my own sarcasm made me smile>

BTW, I've said it before. I think it'll always bear repeating. There was something salvific about stumbling across Dim for me back in college. The collection of images, etc., were important. But, the boards have been the meat. I, too, have learned so much. And, I've found a community....no matter its dysfunction and imperfections.

I feel a bit stupid/embarrassed really. (Confession coming.) My eyes have welled up a bit simply writing this. There was something about me that was rescued when I first ran across Dim.....I don't know if it was my own little fat self-image, my FA desires, or what. But something distorting and confused in my life ended.

Maybe I need to run over to BQTSasha's "What are you thankful for thread." My colors are showing.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:21 AM   #12
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...or better yet, drop a few coins in the collection box if you can.

Here's to you Conrad.
BTW, note to self. I owe Conrad some money. I've been meaning to join for a long time.

I dont' care if I have new carpet to pay for yet...
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Fat-desire is ever present not because it is permanent, but because it is always coming back.
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Old 04-19-2007, 11:31 AM   #13
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This seems a really good thread to me. It really draws attention to what this place Dimesions has meant to a lot of people to be able to come together and exchange thoughts, ideas and expereinces. I've no clue or concept of what it takes to run a site like this or to even have a firm enough belief to undertake such a thing but I know I've learned a lot here and gleaned many things that I never would have otherwise. I just thought it would be as good a time as any to say thank you.
Which reminds me....

*bumps Conrad Appreciation Thread*
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Old 04-19-2007, 11:44 AM   #14
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Ahhhh. I wondered if your comments kinda referenced Stan's FA site/community idea after I posted my confused response.

...
I just wanted to note that I didn't mean to imply starting anything outside of Dimensions! On the contrary, Dimensions is by far the best forum to have such discussions and it probably always will be! Conrad is the founder of something wonderful going on here, I send kudos every once in a while to him, for one thing or another, and I'm a paying member... (actually I wanted to donate a bit more, but I find the payment mechanism confusing so I just signed up for the basic automatic donation thing...)

Maybe this is premature... I wanted to throw some ideas around with Rainyday (her idea of doing something with FAs... from within the Dims community...). I've lurked on the chat boards a bit, I just can't get into chat, it seems like a big, live one-liner fest to me ( I dunno, maybe I'm just an old fart...), that you can't really have an intellectual conversation as you can with a thread (as far as that goes...) and that FAs wouldn't bond and exchange ideas like a real conversation would do.

I sort of thought it might be interesting trying a Skypecast (or conference call) with a group of FAs. (Basically like a conference phone call... the quality is pretty good using a $25 Skype phone that I've experimented with... signing up for basic Skype is free...)

Just publically blurted out thinkin'...

Stan
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:09 PM   #15
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I just wanted to note that I didn't mean to imply starting anything outside of Dimensions! On the contrary, Dimensions is by far the best forum to have such discussions and it probably always will be! Conrad is the founder of something wonderful going on here, I send kudos every once in a while to him, for one thing or another, and I'm a paying member... (actually I wanted to donate a bit more, but I find the payment mechanism confusing so I just signed up for the basic automatic donation thing...)

Maybe this is premature... I wanted to throw some ideas around with Rainyday (her idea of doing something with FAs... from within the Dims community...). I've lurked on the chat boards a bit, I just can't get into chat, it seems like a big, live one-liner fest to me ( I dunno, maybe I'm just an old fart...), that you can't really have an intellectual conversation as you can with a thread (as far as that goes...) and that FAs wouldn't bond and exchange ideas like a real conversation would do.

I sort of thought it might be interesting trying a Skypecast (or conference call) with a group of FAs. (Basically like a conference phone call... the quality is pretty good using a $25 Skype phone that I've experimented with... signing up for basic Skype is free...)

Just publically blurted out thinkin'...

Stan
Thanks for the clarification...and, please keep blurting. I'm like your idea, but I too am not sure where to go with it. FA's may be a bit hard to congregate in a way because, at least as men, I think, we are stereotypically more loners, less cliquish, and reluctant to spend time talking about our erotic lives beyond "she's f'in hot!" (Don't want to overplay the male stereotype too much, but there seems truth in the caricature)

So of us who have weathered some ups and downs in our whole FA experience or fat eroticism thing may be more interested than those who are simply into fat girls, dating, and proclaiming their enthusiasm for their encounters with fatdom. I do not mean to make judgments, but simply realize there is a time when FA's find the need to make community and connect with one another. For me, fat/size attraction touches on something more than aesthetic appeal and bonerism. Being in my 30's and committed in a relationship changes my experience. I've gone through phases in my life with what eroticism means and is about. But, the point of any community isn't sameness or uniformity; its the differences in experience and interests that make 'em work. This isn't rhetoric. I believe its living fact. Dim testifies to how erotic interests, social concern, and personal connection all interact in a whole made up of differences.

OK. I, too, now, am thinking outloud. Or, rather, pontificating without a congregation.

Rock on, stan.

We're still gonna meet before my life is done.
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Fat-desire is ever present not because it is permanent, but because it is always coming back.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:19 PM   #16
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Ok, Mr. Pants.

I've mulled this over. I think that you are right in saying that suppression of sexuality (and sensuality, for that matter) can intensify it. I'm no psychological expert, but I agree that there are certain aspects of a person's personality that can be suppressed and then come out in more extreme ways later on. Suppressed anger turns to rage, strict youth turns to wild adolescence, or a no-dessert diet leads to a raiding of the ice cream aisle. No doubt some parallels can be drawn here.

On the other hand, certain aspects in certain people can simply atrophy. I may go nuts not doing architecture for a while, but after a certain number of years, I'm sure I would simply give up caring and move onto something else. I don't think sexuality usually falls in this category, but perhaps it's worth implying that sometimes certain aspects of it do. Exempli gratia, I normally really like brunettes and darker complexions, but if I were to date only blondes for a few years, whose to say that I would be left with a deathly yearning for some brunette action?

Yet at the other end of the spectrum, there are the guys who are [arguably] over-indulgent of their desires from the start. There are those among us that are so liberal with their sexuality from adolescence on, that they never gain the restraint to understand how it fits into normal life. A simple back-track into college reminds us all of the guy who would spend days at a time locked in his dorm room porning-it-up, or better yet, the loud frat guy who seemed incapable of having a conversation outside of whom he "totally banged last night." Not always, but often, these guys never receive any social education about the propriety that ought to accompany a person's sexual outlook. A lack of restraint can also be efficacious, albeit often negative.

Thus, with most things in life, there is a happy medium. In the Tdaoist sense: it is best to find the middle path.

All that being said, I totally identify with you in terms of trying to formulate your sexual parameters around "not being just like all those other assholes." This can make you highly attuned to what a woman wants from a man, but often at the cost of never learning what you, as a man, want from a woman. Your desires and sexuality take a back seat because you're afraid that bringing them up is exactly the "assholish" thing that women hope to never see. It's not that way exactly (you eventually find out), but in a better-safe-than-sorry situation, a thoughtful guy seems to find suppression synonymous with consideration.

So, I can see the argument that like a shaken soda bottle with a barely-opened cap, there is a fear that the stuff under pressure will come out in weird and messy ways.

Ultimately, I think it is the responsibility of a man to find that "middle path." He has to seek the part of his own sexuality that best matches with his partner, and accentuate and celebrate that. He has to be responsible not to make that sexuality the ruling determinant in his life, but also to find a safe place for it to be expressed. It's meant to be cherished and nurtured, but--like everything in life--within the right contexts.

So, there ya go. My two Canadian cents, Mr. Pants.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:24 PM   #17
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Dear Bigplaid, you seem to have been running over some ground that I recognise lately. Writing this post I have got lost in it, only appreciating the depth of the uncertainty and contradictions as I've written. It is unfinished. I don't know how to draw a narrative line through it or how to conclude. It tails off into a list of thoughts. But I'm going to post it anyway, even if it's not in full sentences.

your use of the phrase 'distorted soul' is appropriate: the attraction to fatness runs right down deep faultline in my mind and character...pressure brought to bear on it, either to deny or to objectify it and make it permanent (I guess for me that means active gaining), levers apart how I feel as a person.

the tension you identified in a previous post between wanting more and having enough is totally central, and while in writing it seems like those two states are permanent and separate entities that will always have to be balanced, one in one hand, the other in another, but in experience they form two phases of a cycle.

which is where the denial of fat-desire (any desire I guess, it's just this is the one I know about!), or it's converse, the chaining of existence to that desire becomes a problem...both those actions make permanent and independant objects of states that are transitory and interdependant.

fat-desire is ever present not because it is permanent, but because it is always coming back.

the body itself is, as ever, the problem and the opportunity here. How does one deal with an entity that is material and if not unchanging, then slow to change, when one is coursing through the cycles of desire? This is sometimes where I wish I was just into being tied up or hit or something. But the direct opposition between my body's stability and my desires to change it according to my changing fantasies presents a chance to face something that is particularly difficult and perhaps liberating.

I have been in a cleft stick these past months. I have been gaining weight, loving it, and beginning to explore an erotic life based on the reality of a fatter body and the fantasies that go with it with my girlfriend. It has been wonderful. But I need to lose some weight for practical reasons-I'm not in medical trouble, I just want to be better at some things that being heavier is setting me back in. And every time I start to turn towards weight loss, the desire to explore a little more what it is like to be fatter comes back so strongly. I have been trapped between two poles of attraction, frozen, not knowing which way to turn. Which is the most exciting place to be in, because there is something about fetishism that is very frozen, very static.

Which is where the twisting of the soul takes place. For me the soul is the feeling of perception, the feeling that comes from living, and it has it's own shape, intricate, absolute and necessary, different in each moment, but by no means random or arbitrary. But this feeling moves in cycles, and the inhibition of these cycles makes me less alive.

When I refuse the experience of stasis, for instance after a night of eating, and fat-inspired sex, going through with the experience without inhibition, my soul feels very near the surface. But eating and fat sex are not spiritual in themselves; something about the perceptual motion that is released by giving in and living the desire is.

to mistake the state of the body for the state of desire

do you identify with your shifting ( and necessarily conflicting desires) or your body? If you identify with your body, you will not hurt yourself.

using the body- arguably a typically masculine or patriarchal thing to do, as opposed to living it's life.

but perhaps the bending of the body to fantasy is something that makes us particularly human, and that some kind of 'noble animal' idea about being with the wisdom of the body is missing the point of what we must be.

to mistake the state of the body for the state of desire

do you identify with your shifting ( and necessarily conflicting desires) or your body? If you identify with your body, you will not hurt yourself.

the body is that which lives, that which percieves. And when motion is granted to desire...fuck knows. This is more difficult than I thought. Something about this goes right down to the bloody centre of what I feel about life, but I can't quite heave it into words. Thanks for opening the thread.

philosobear, I just now have gotten around to reading your post. I really get this. On the side of intellectual structure, you describe a kind of dialectical movement between stasis and desire, Yes and No, want and release, that I think is worthy of some real meditation in regards to theorizing desire and the like. I pick up the connection between "wanting more" and "having enough" in your writing.

I think I'm going to take one of your phrases for a sig line for a while. You are right.

Quote:
fat-desire is ever present not because it is permanent, but because it is always coming back.
This is how I experience fat-desire...for myself and for another. It is for a certain kind of embodiment, a kind of incarnation of fantasy, erotic projection, ormental image that is very much connected to a certain body sensuousness. Identifying as a heterosexual, it is very connected to woman's bodies. But, perhaps as a "auto-erotic FA" also, it isn't just there.

Anyway, thanks for posting. I feel a kinship with your feelings and reflection.

Good. Real. Good.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:47 PM   #18
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First, this has been a very cool and most meaty thread. Even though I'm not an FA, I've enjoyed it. Hope it continues.

As far as the chatting, Stan, I think a chat with a defined topic takes on a different tone than the atmosphere of the general chat rooms, at least that's what I've found in those chats I mentioned to you. All those were women-only, so maybe male chats would be different, but the atmosphere was instantly more supportive and more unguarded than in the general chat room, and having a moderator and an agenda seemed to help. It was also really helpful in the first couple to have a co-moderator just for support. I still think they might be a good idea worth trying.

Personally, I can't say enough how much I love, love, love the idea of men mentoring other men. It just seems like such a positive, effective way to improve things all around, and I think it's cool you shared some parts of your own journey here, BPP, for other FAs to read. I believe a lot of the bad behavior fat women complain about from men could be derailed somewhat if there were more modeling going on.

The shooting in Virginia this week really reminded me again of the consequences of people feeling like outsiders and the way their negative acting out against that pain can impact us all. BPP, your essay above touched on the outsider feeling a lot of young FAs have, and it's something I've heard other FAs share a lot privately. In the same way mentoring can do, I think finding a way to let FAs know they're not alone, nor weird, can also help reduce a lot of negative behavior. ("Hogging," closet FAism, etc.) Makes me excited to get that FA photo site up and running because it's a small concrete thing that might help that along a little.

I had some other things I wanted to ramble about, but fortunately for you all, I've forgotten what they were. I may be back if I remember.

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Old 04-19-2007, 01:05 PM   #19
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Ok, Mr. Pants.

I've mulled this over. I think that you are right in saying that suppression of sexuality (and sensuality, for that matter) can intensify it. I'm no psychological expert, but I agree that there are certain aspects of a person's personality that can be suppressed and then come out in more extreme ways later on. Suppressed anger turns to rage, strict youth turns to wild adolescence, or a no-dessert diet leads to a raiding of the ice cream aisle. No doubt some parallels can be drawn here.

On the other hand, certain aspects in certain people can simply atrophy. I may go nuts not doing architecture for a while, but after a certain number of years, I'm sure I would simply give up caring and move onto something else. I don't think sexuality usually falls in this category, but perhaps it's worth implying that sometimes certain aspects of it do. Exempli gratia, I normally really like brunettes and darker complexions, but if I were to date only blondes for a few years, whose to say that I would be left with a deathly yearning for some brunette action?

Yet at the other end of the spectrum, there are the guys who are [arguably] over-indulgent of their desires from the start. There are those among us that are so liberal with their sexuality from adolescence on, that they never gain the restraint to understand how it fits into normal life. A simple back-track into college reminds us all of the guy who would spend days at a time locked in his dorm room porning-it-up, or better yet, the loud frat guy who seemed incapable of having a conversation outside of whom he "totally banged last night." Not always, but often, these guys never receive any social education about the propriety that ought to accompany a person's sexual outlook. A lack of restraint can also be efficacious, albeit often negative.

Thus, with most things in life, there is a happy medium. In the Tdaoist sense: it is best to find the middle path.

All that being said, I totally identify with you in terms of trying to formulate your sexual parameters around "not being just like all those other assholes." This can make you highly attuned to what a woman wants from a man, but often at the cost of never learning what you, as a man, want from a woman. Your desires and sexuality take a back seat because you're afraid that bringing them up is exactly the "assholish" thing that women hope to never see. It's not that way exactly (you eventually find out), but in a better-safe-than-sorry situation, a thoughtful guy seems to find suppression synonymous with consideration.

So, I can see the argument that like a shaken soda bottle with a barely-opened cap, there is a fear that the stuff under pressure will come out in weird and messy ways.

Ultimately, I think it is the responsibility of a man to find that "middle path." He has to seek the part of his own sexuality that best matches with his partner, and accentuate and celebrate that. He has to be responsible not to make that sexuality the ruling determinant in his life, but also to find a safe place for it to be expressed. It's meant to be cherished and nurtured, but--like everything in life--within the right contexts.

So, there ya go. My two Canadian cents, Mr. Pants.
OK, Mr. Coast.

This really isn't "my thread" Thanks for the response, JWC. You oughtta come over.

I like what you've said. You've teased out an argument that follows my original thoughts. I didn't intend any argument by what I originally wrote, but you've taken it somewhere I agree with. As a matter of fact, it's kind of weird reading someone else typing that kind of thing and not me.

I think this follows your thoughts from mine: There is a difference, an important one, between repression and restraint, or more broadly, living a responsible sexual life. The term "erotic" for me is a way to bring this whole discussion out of the sexual and into a more wholistic and broader understanding. Repression, as I was using it, is a denial of the desire at all. It is an attempt to prune it at the root, suppress it, and deny its expression. This, I think, if often damaging and a miscarriage of responsibility. Very much practiced in our society, it confuses thought and action, conception and execution. Repression keeps us out of the erotic and would like to acknowledge only its acceptable forms. Restraint works with and within the erotic, understanding the important distinction between fantasy and reality. Said crudely, restraint is a penis with a frontal lobe and a heart of empathy and concern. In our erotic lives, when we acknowledge our (I believe, God-given) erotic desires and proclivities, we can be creative with our sexuality and sexual practice. This *only* happens with appropriate discernment and restraint....often shaped by ethical/religious considerations. Full throttle sexual practice and expression is both dangerous and obsessive, especially when its your only mode for being sexual.

We are whistling similar tunes in the dark, aren't we? I think this is life along the "middle path," however it may wind, meandor, and even backtrack.

Two denari back atchya, Mr. Coast....*West* Coast. (BTW, you have to remember that the WEST COAST is Chicago and Wisconsin. Not Oregen, or whatever. You make it sound like everyone knows it the Pacific Ocean you're talking about and not Lake Michigan. Geesh....)
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Fat-desire is ever present not because it is permanent, but because it is always coming back.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:11 PM   #20
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Wow. I've been busy in other threads and putting off reading this one, because I knew there would be a lot I'd need to to mull over carefully. I was right. If my brain were a stomach, I'd be intellectually overstuffed . But it's time to bring my own dish to the potluck!

I'm going to start with some theoretical speculations. Those of you whose eyes glaze over at this kind of stuff can skip this one and in my next post I'll talk about my own experiences as an FA.

BPP, you've made a wonderfully useful distinction between sexuality and eroticism. If I ever get around to writing my Grand Unified Theory of human social behavior, I'm totally gonna steal your methodology .

The concept of eroticism is useful because it lets us conceptualize the way that our specific sexual turn-ons shade over into the broader affective network that generates our subjective experience. We're animals who think in symbols, and the animal part and the symbolic part are constantly interacting with one another. Our animal parts are all basically the same; we share many of them with the other vertebrates, most of them with the other mammals, and nearly all of them with the other primates. So, for example, if you have a Y chromosome you have a dick.

But the symbolic part of us is much more flexible. It's the Ultimate Weapon that won us the evolutionary arms race; instead of relying on our instincts to guide us as we interact with our environment, we can learn new behaviors and then transmit these behaviors to our descendents in the form of information. The ancestors of the Native Americans didn't know how to survive the North American landscape when they first crossed the Bering Land Bridge, but they learned real quick -- the ones that lived did, anyways; and they passed those skills on to their children as a matter of necessity.

Can you tell I'm an anthropology geek yet?

All human beings are instinctively equipped to handle certain challenges -- fucking, fighting and finding food, mostly. When it's time to make a baby, the stick goes in the hole. That's true in Polynesia and it's true in Scandinavia. But they also need to adapt these instincts to a particular environment; an Eskimo and an Australian Aborigine both need to eat, but they don't eat the same things, and if two of them swapped places they would starve to death pretty quickly.

We share the same basic set of instinctive desires, but the things that trigger them vary from culture to culture and person to person. A Kalahari forager sees a termite mound and says "yummy!"; I see it and think "yuck! where can I buy some cupcakes?" Neither of us needs to think this through; we know it unconsciously and we feel it subjectively.

Which is what all of this has to do with what we're really here to discuss, namely fat girls . I see one and I go bananas. I don't need to think "OK, brain, start making my heart beat faster, pump some more serotonin to get me keyed up, and tell my nervous system to send a tingle down the spinal cord to the ol' genitalia"; my brain makes it all happen automatically. And if she happens to look in my direction? It sends some blood to my cheeks and makes little hearts pop out of my head so that I look something like this:

For whatever reason (and I have various speculations), fatness is what triggers my innate capacity for sexual arousal. Presumably it's the same for the rest of you guys . In my own case, I have auxiliary fetishes, encouraging and (under certain circumstances) gaining, which, when present, pump extra juice into the circuitry.

That's sexuality.

But you can't have sex all the time. (Although on lazy Sunday afternoons it's fun to try .) Humans have other needs, too: emotional intimacy, good conversation, tasty food. These aren't the same thing as our sexuality, but they're not completely separate from it, either. The things we want at any given moment are like points on a waveform:

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosobear
For me the soul is the feeling of perception, the feeling that comes from living, and it has it's own shape, intricate, absolute and necessary, different in each moment, but by no means random or arbitrary. But this feeling moves in cycles, and the inhibition of these cycles makes me less alive.
We want our lives to feel like a unified whole. When the way her hair falls across her back reminds me of summer sunlight, or the spread of her fat upper arm as it rests on her belly becomes the visible sign of the abstract ideas of luxury and plenitude, when my symbolic mind and my animal body are dancing harmoniously together, that's eroticism. It's not about the mechanical process of arousal and ejaculation, it's about the subconscious metaphor-logic of dreams and art.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigplaidpants
I think this follows your thoughts from mine: There is a difference, an important one, between repression and restraint, or more broadly, living a responsible sexual life. The term "erotic" for me is a way to bring this whole discussion out of the sexual and into a more wholistic and broader understanding. Repression, as I was using it, is a denial of the desire at all. It is an attempt to prune it at the root, suppress it, and deny its expression. This, I think, if often damaging and a miscarriage of responsibility. Very much practiced in our society, it confuses thought and action, conception and execution. Repression keeps us out of the erotic and would like to acknowledge only its acceptable forms. Restraint works with and within the erotic, understanding the important distinction between fantasy and reality. Said crudely, restraint is a penis with a frontal lobe and a heart of empathy and concern. In our erotic lives, when we acknowledge our (I believe, God-given) erotic desires and proclivities, we can be creative with our sexuality and sexual practice. This *only* happens with appropriate discernment and restraint....often shaped by ethical/religious considerations. Full throttle sexual practice and expression is both dangerous and obsessive, especially when its your only mode for being sexual.
I can't improve upon that.

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Old 04-20-2007, 03:51 PM   #21
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Cool

If my attention span was up to it I'd have something to say besides, "Props! I've been there, man! Well, except for the wus music..." As it is, though... good post. I dig.
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Old 04-21-2007, 05:50 PM   #22
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If my attention span was up to it I'd have something to say besides, "Props! I've been there, man! Well, except for the wus music..." As it is, though... good post. I dig.
Not sure if you're talking about my post, but if so, thanks!

Are you dissing indie rock, though? Them's fighting words, metalhead . (j/k!)
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by bigplaidpants View Post
philosobear, I just now have gotten around to reading your post. I really get this. On the side of intellectual structure, you describe a kind of dialectical movement between stasis and desire, Yes and No, want and release, that I think is worthy of some real meditation in regards to theorizing desire and the like. I pick up the connection between "wanting more" and "having enough" in your writing.

I think I'm going to take one of your phrases for a sig line for a while. You are right.



This is how I experience fat-desire...for myself and for another. It is for a certain kind of embodiment, a kind of incarnation of fantasy, erotic projection, ormental image that is very much connected to a certain body sensuousness. Identifying as a heterosexual, it is very connected to woman's bodies. But, perhaps as a "auto-erotic FA" also, it isn't just there.

Anyway, thanks for posting. I feel a kinship with your feelings and reflection.

Good. Real. Good.
Hi Bigplaid, thankyou, for your words and for starting the thread. Reply delayed as expected further insight failed to materialise, as did time to construct some the hard way. So I'll just say it's good to talk to someone who'se able to have head, heart and libido in the same room and talking to eachother! Keep saying it out, it's worth reading...

all 't' best,
J.

Last edited by philosobear; 04-23-2007 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:50 PM   #24
philosobear
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Originally Posted by Jay West Coast View Post

So, I can see the argument that like a shaken soda bottle with a barely-opened cap, there is a fear that the stuff under pressure will come out in weird and messy ways.

this is a good image...
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