Dimensions Forums  
Home Register Premium Membership Health Issues Market Place Big Fashion

Go Back   Dimensions Forums > Discussion > BHM/FFA



Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-25-2010, 08:29 PM   #1
bigpulve
 
bigpulve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 346
bigpulve can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokesbigpulve can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokes
Default air of desperation

I dont know if this has been discussed, if so..... tough. I have psuedoscientifically concluded that it seems fat people, fat guys in particular, seeing how I am one, seem to be far more afraid of seeming desperate than the average human being. Ive been trying to figure this out for a long time, mainly because its a big thing for me to not seem desperate, even though I can not figure out why that would be.

Any other thoughts?
__________________
wait, what?
bigpulve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 09:08 PM   #2
Merlin_sorcerer
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9
Merlin_sorcerer has said some nice things
Default

I would not say all, but in general it could be just the thing that we have less chances. So if you see a small one we tend to jump in it.
Merlin_sorcerer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 09:40 PM   #3
Mohulis
 
Mohulis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Knoxville-ish, TN
Posts: 14
Mohulis has said some nice things
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin_sorcerer View Post
So if you see a small one we tend to jump in it.
I'd have to completely agree. For quite awhile now I've compared what happens when I see a small opportunity to Chris Farley's Tommy Boy bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCyaXh-VZco
Mohulis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 09:52 PM   #4
vinarian
Crazy Person
 
vinarian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: through the looking glass, nwpa
Posts: 150
vinarian can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokesvinarian can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokes
Default

A good friend once told me that one of the more attractive aspects in a man is confidence. If you exude confidence and not despiration, you already have a leg up on competition.
__________________
If its cool to be sane then count me in - insanity is fun, you make up your own world as you go!
vinarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 09:56 PM   #5
Merlin_sorcerer
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9
Merlin_sorcerer has said some nice things
Default

yeah i think it is hard to find a good middle ground between taking things not serious "because she cant be interested" and running them over. Maybe also just a lack of "training"
Merlin_sorcerer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 10:53 PM   #6
CastingPearls
Go Big Or Go Home
 
CastingPearls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Possum Grape, AR
Posts: 15,178
CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

To me, the sexiest thing about a man is confidence.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]http://castingpearls-blowingbubbles.blogspot.com/

Free me, free yourself
A life of sacrifice controlled me
But those promises I made
No longer hold me
Mercurial more wayward by the hour
The shackles fall away I'm in your power



People throw rocks at things that shine.
CastingPearls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 10:57 PM   #7
Merlin_sorcerer
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9
Merlin_sorcerer has said some nice things
Default

I think this less a matter of confidence or not but about amount of chances and getting a bit overboard
Merlin_sorcerer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 11:03 PM   #8
CastingPearls
Go Big Or Go Home
 
CastingPearls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Possum Grape, AR
Posts: 15,178
CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.CastingPearls has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Confidence does have something to do with it. Can one be both desperate and confident? To me they're polar opposites. You're talking about how you feel and I'm talking about what I observe as an FFA so we don't have to agree.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]http://castingpearls-blowingbubbles.blogspot.com/

Free me, free yourself
A life of sacrifice controlled me
But those promises I made
No longer hold me
Mercurial more wayward by the hour
The shackles fall away I'm in your power



People throw rocks at things that shine.
CastingPearls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 11:12 PM   #9
Merlin_sorcerer
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9
Merlin_sorcerer has said some nice things
Default

Yes of course they are connected but i don't see them excluding each other.. in the way that desperate to some degree also just means wanting to much, and that aspect can even be increased by confidence... but could maybe also be a matter of how i understand "desperate" as not native English speaker...
Merlin_sorcerer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 01:31 AM   #10
Amaranthine
Adamant Anti-Nihilist
 
Amaranthine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 1,438
Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!Amaranthine keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin_sorcerer View Post
Yes of course they are connected but i don't see them excluding each other.. in the way that desperate to some degree also just means wanting to much, and that aspect can even be increased by confidence... but could maybe also be a matter of how i understand "desperate" as not native English speaker...
I actually agree with this- it depends on how you interpret desperate. If it's the kind of desperate where you get the idea that they just want ANYONE and anything they can get, then it's not confidence related at all. They don't believe in themselves enough to actually fathom being able to get someone, so they give up and try to get whatever they can.

However, I also think confident guys can be desperate in a different sense. More in the way of getting close to someone because they're confident and seem like a good person, having that relationship confirm their confidence, and then having them beg you for some kind of sexual interaction because they think they can get it. It's annoying as all hell.


In response to the original question though, I feel like a lot of it could be society related. Even though so many people are bigger, society is VERY harsh on people who have more to love. It's not even because obesity is seen as a disease, you wouldn't make fun of a depressed person, or someone with cancer- it's simply just another way to single someone out because they look different. Plus I feel like some men in general are more afraid of seeming desperate- I mean, it doesn't seem like an issue women have to deal with as much. Everyone has their own sexual needs, and a man might feel more shy about expressing them to a woman because he wants to respect her own pace on the matter and not push her away. And a bigger guy probably feels disadvantaged in the dating pool, once again because people are just less accepting, and even those who prefer bigger men might not even be confident enough to pursue their interests.

All considering, it seems understandable that one might do their best to seem the total opposite of desperate, even though they might feel like there's not much hope. But honestly, personality is SO sexy, and if you fall for someone for who they really are, they start to look really damn good no matter what.
__________________
"A purpose of human life, no matter who is controlling it, is to love whoever is around to be loved."
Amaranthine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 02:29 AM   #11
Merlin_sorcerer
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9
Merlin_sorcerer has said some nice things
Default

yeah that is what i wanted to say... confidence doesn't stop you from doing silly desperate things.
Especially if you are in outsider role (for whatever reason). And i agree with you in another point that as men you are more often fighting to find the right pace and are to some degree forced to go with the speed women dictates.
Merlin_sorcerer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 07:42 AM   #12
Tad
mostly harmless
 
Tad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,611
Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.Tad has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

"There's desperation in the air.
It leaves a stain on all your clothes and no detergent gets it out." (From "Life is a Lemon and I Want My Money Back", sung by Meatloaf, written by Jim Steinman.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnHyB9KzQvs&feature=fvst Warning, long and cheesy degrees of angst, but still a fun song some days )

I can think of a few factors:

- Not wanting to match expectations/play to stereotypes. There is a stereotype of fat people being desperate--how could they not be when nobody at all would ever want them, right? And the stereotypes of fat people are generally pretty unfavorable, so I think it makes a kind of sense to not let yourself get easily slotted into it, although that means playing against it all the time. So if you are very careful to never seem desperate, I'd also guess you watch how much and what you eat when out with people, and other things to avoid being seen as the stereotypical fat person.

- Any hint of desperation is a huge admission of weakness. No guy, especially no young guy, likes to display their weaknesses (and frankly with good reason, our society is pretty brutal towards guys who lead with their weaknesses, and weaknesses might be endearing once in a realationship, but they are probably not a big attractor). But this is doubled up when you already have an apparent weakness in some other form, such as being fat (but a similar dynamic happens if you are short, or nerdy, or non-athletic, etc).

- It is just bad strategy. It seems to be almost a universal human reflex, that feeling of "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me." It is sort of like, 'if I could get this person that easily, then with a little work I should be able to get someone better' or some instinct like that. Anecdotally, almost all my friends have noticed they got more female attention when they were out with a woman, often ditto once wearing a wedding band, and one of the tried and true ways of picking someone up is to pay them enough attention to get them paying attention to you....then ignore them. Seeming kind of unavailable seems to make most people more attractive somehow?

Having said all of that, if you err too far on the side of not seeming desperate, you may just end up seeming aloof and standoffish. How you hit just the right balance....instinct? Practice?

Good luck!
__________________
Criticism is so often nothing more than the eye garrulously denouncing the shape of the peephole that gives access to hidden treasure.
-Djuna Barnes, writer and artist
Tad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 10:21 AM   #13
xxeell
 
xxeell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 106
xxeell has said some nice things
Default

Idk about ya'll but, a few drinks gets my confidence way up there.
xxeell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 01:59 PM   #14
Italian Dough Boy
 
Italian Dough Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tacoma-ish WA
Posts: 17
Italian Dough Boy has said some nice things
Default

This is great subject matter, I used to be that way and would shy away from putting myself out there because of that fear. Then I got a little introspective and analytical about the situation. I would see many attractive women with guys who were not all that attractive and quite frankly were d-bags. Sure these guys were skinnier than me but they were not much more attractive than me, if at all. So I asked myself what did they have that I didn't? These men exuded confidence and that was their way in the door with these women. Too bad for most of those guys after a while women realize they are d-bags and leave them lol. Unlike those men you just have to be comfortable in your own skin and be confident in who you are to get your foot in the door and then be a understanding, caring, romantic, funny and fun guy(or whatever your good traits are) to bust through the door.
__________________
I'm Kevin James' stunt double.
Italian Dough Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 05:11 PM   #15
HDANGEL15
GREATFUL
 
HDANGEL15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: MD
Posts: 5,681
HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!HDANGEL15 keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxeell View Post
Idk about ya'll but, a few drinks gets my confidence way up there.

hmmm drunk guys exuding FALSE confidence? total TURNOFF
__________________
TREAT OTHERS TODAY.............as you hope to be treated tomorrow :kiss2:
HDANGEL15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 10:19 AM   #16
FishCharming
derailer extraordinaire!
 
FishCharming's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Nickel City
Posts: 1,922
FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!FishCharming has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default

definitely. conversely if a fat guy exudes confidence it's taken much better than a thin guy because it's unusual. Fat guy's can be overly confident where thin guys usually just get labeled as cocky.
FishCharming is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 11:17 AM   #17
Hozay J Garseeya
Rooder. Crooder. Neuter.
 
Hozay J Garseeya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,159
Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Double post, sorry
__________________
Don't judge me based on your ignorance :wubu:
Hozay J Garseeya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 11:17 AM   #18
Hozay J Garseeya
Rooder. Crooder. Neuter.
 
Hozay J Garseeya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,159
Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.Hozay J Garseeya has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FishCharming View Post
definitely. conversely if a fat guy exudes confidence it's taken much better than a thin guy because it's unusual. Fat guy's can be overly confident where thin guys usually just get labeled as cocky.
This is true; this is my key to success with the ladies.

1. Confidence

2. ? ? ?

3. Profit!!!
__________________
Don't judge me based on your ignorance :wubu:
Hozay J Garseeya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 12:41 PM   #19
lovelocs
Nunc est Bibendum
 
lovelocs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Squaresville USA
Posts: 1,102
lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!lovelocs has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default From what I see, it's a game.

And not a particularly fun one, until and unless you've mastered it. If you show any weakness at all (or desperation) people feel free to reject you. Show no weakness, and people feel as if you'll reject them.

For instance, while discussing office politics, I once had a boss say of me "C- seems so cool and put together, I just think she doesn't give a damn about anyone or their opinions..." That wasn't the truth, at all, and I never made any attempt to be or do anything special. My friend and I had a big laugh about it when she told me.

Which just goes to show, even if you put in the necessary effort to try and "look" or "not look" one way or the other, you are still at the mercy of people reading you correctly.
Sometimes people will read you incorrectly because:

1. they don't know how to read others
2. they're not familiar enough with aspects of your culture to know what your behavior means.
3. you look like (talk like, share the same ethnicity with) someone who acts a certain way, so you must be like that, too
4. They regularly make a habit of ignoring reality and superimposing their worldview on other people, places and things.

So you may be doing everything right (or just being yourself) and be surrounded by people who are unable to see, or refuse to allow themselves to see a healthy, happy, fat person who is not lacking anything.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ad astra per alas porci.
lovelocs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 01:00 PM   #20
Zowie
Zowie-Zilla
 
Zowie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,140
Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default

I'm telling you, the secrets to being confident are PUA tricks.
__________________
Still an angry nightshade vegetable at heart.
Zowie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 01:03 PM   #21
bigpulve
 
bigpulve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 346
bigpulve can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokesbigpulve can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokes
Default

Damn this went far. I actually started thinking about it, because I saw the first episode of Mike and Molly, and listening to how Mike would say hes not desperate just sad and lonely or something.

Ive always had this weird confidence, I just have never really displayed it. Also I get really excited about things and want to really get into stuff like relationtionships, and that probably comes off as seeming desperate when Im really not.
__________________
wait, what?
bigpulve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 01:13 PM   #22
Paquito
don't July to me
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,639
Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!Paquito keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
I'm telling you, the secrets to being confident are PUA tricks.
I decided against bringing up PUA, for the children's sake.

I knew I could count on you.
Paquito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 01:20 PM   #23
Zowie
Zowie-Zilla
 
Zowie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,140
Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Zowie has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paquito View Post
I decided against bringing up PUA, for the children's sake.

I knew I could count on you.
Of course. I'll always be there for us. *secret handshake*
__________________
Still an angry nightshade vegetable at heart.
Zowie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 10:18 PM   #24
WillSpark
King Of The Robo-Sluts
 
WillSpark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NJ. It's where the cool people hang out.
Posts: 1,636
WillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions communityWillSpark is a pillar of the Dimensions community
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
I'm telling you, the secrets to being confident are PUA tricks.
http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/
__________________
A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand!:happy:
WillSpark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2010, 11:56 AM   #25
JenFromOC
Awesome.
 
JenFromOC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fullerton, NE
Posts: 1,380
JenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions communityJenFromOC is a pillar of the Dimensions community
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
I'm telling you, the secrets to being confident are PUA tricks.
Annnnnnnd....my head just exploded.

I enjoy confidence and cockiness.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Jen Rocks!!

I wanna get in trouble, I wanna start a fight!

And it's a great day to be alive- Travis Tritt
JenFromOC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Dimensions Magazine. All rights reserved worldwide.