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View Poll Results: Do you want a new political board?
Yes 20 62.50%
No 12 37.50%
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:46 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by agouderia View Post
We based our decision on the State of California Speech Code - since the Dims server to our knowledge is based there.
Can you point me to that passage in the California Code? The only references I could find were regarding the University of California Speech Codes. Hopefully Dims doesn't reside on a UC server.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agouderia View Post
Despite the US (in general, all 50 states) having a very liberal interpretation of freedom of speech - think Nazi symbols which are outlawed in many other countries - there are legal limits to it. Libel and slander are penalized - and people take action against it. Look into the libel lawsuits history of your President-elect and his family; you might be surprised.
If the mods are honestly that concerned about legal issues, especially the numerous international laws, they really should take up a different hobby. Much of what is on Dims would get them convicted of a wide variety of serious crimes in dozens of countries. Slander and libel would be the very least of their worries. And yes, the U.S., Canada, and Great Britain have extradition treaties with many of those countries.
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Old 12-05-2016, 10:04 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Tad View Post
As to the 'why was HP taken off-line now, and not at some other time?' probably has to do with the change-over in board ownership and moderator crew. BBD is one of only a few who were moderating four years ago. Due to some of the issues that were coming up, the rest of us were getting more involved -- something that we'd avoided previously because a lot of the exchanges made us break out hives (well, not literally, but it sure felt like it at times ....)

So the questions were:

- Should we leave it as is, with BBD moderating with no other mod support? (we felt that the answer on that was no, as things seemed to be not going well with that model. Maybe it was business as usual, but to those who hadn't dived deeply into the HP waters before, it sure didn't feel like anyone was happy with the status quo, BBD included)

- Was having the other moderators getting involved going to make a better situation? (we felt 'no' because most of us knew that we could not commit to wading through HP on a regular basis, or having any patience for a lot of what went on there. And we felt that trying to reign in some of the things we found most worrying was not apt to go well in that environment)

- Should we shut it down entirely? (again we felt 'no', because of some of the reasons that have been discussed already, primarily some people like it and it keeps the political out of other parts of the boards)

And so we came to the idea of shutting down HP, and taking some time to come up with a replacement.

I would say that the timing was connected with this current election only insofar as it brought issues to a head that dragged the other moderators into the board. I suspect that had we really dived in deeply earlier, we would have done this earlier. It is like a lot of issues: they fester for a long time, with everyone trying to ignore them, then something forces people to pay attention and they finally do something about it.

Well, that may not be quite true: if we'd really gotten involved earlier we might have just shut it down, full stop. Another reason for the plan to replace it was that in the current political climate simply shutting down HP without replacement would surely have been seen as a snub to the American right. (for what it is worth, I had people on both sides of the political spectrum on ignore due to HP -- bad logic and bad behavior are not confined to supporters of any one political party. That is why in the past I favored just shutting it down if BBD every lost her willingness to moderate; I previously considered it too non-functional to salvage)

Do keep the suggestions for the new board coming. We have had some ideas since before we announced the HP shut down, and are continuing to discuss behind the scenes, but we are just a few and the people here may come up with some ideas that we haven't thought of. No doubt the suggestions won't all be feasible, consistent, or in the end implemented, but they will all be read and thought about.
Tad,one could sum up this entire post and just say ....
"We're Fucked!" Kind of damned if you and damned if you don't....
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:42 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Can you point me to that passage in the California Code? The only references I could find were regarding the University of California Speech Codes. Hopefully Dims doesn't reside on a UC server.


If the mods are honestly that concerned about legal issues, especially the numerous international laws, they really should take up a different hobby. Much of what is on Dims would get them convicted of a wide variety of serious crimes in dozens of countries. Slander and libel would be the very least of their worries. And yes, the U.S., Canada, and Great Britain have extradition treaties with many of those countries.
Sorry - press or speech code was sloppy wording. It's just the term most commonly used internationally to sum up this type of law.

Guideline for our decision was the so-called Defamation Law, a section of the California Civil Code (§§ 44, 45a & 46) which would apply to Dims as an internet server based in California.
Most of material on California State Laws is published by University of California Press, so that's why those are most of the Google listings you will receive for that query.

As a mod team, our issue certainly is not to excavate and enforce random speech laws from wherever on this globe.

Fact though is that HP inundated the mod team with reported posts and calls for infracting other posters based on allegations of libel and slander. So we had to look into those - and determine on which legal base to make decisions on. That's all we did - and not voluntarily by the way.
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Old 12-06-2016, 10:07 AM   #79
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So is the libel issue one of public figures or individual posters? Since 1)almost no one here uses their actual names and 2) I don't recall of anyone accusing another poster of a crime or something unsavory besides the typical asshole, jerk, etc., it doesn't seem that it would be an issue.
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Old 12-06-2016, 10:12 AM   #80
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I think it is not so much an urgent concern that the board would get sued, and more of "the place has descended to the point where constant, repetitive, usage of what meets the legal definition of slander in many places has become normal. This feels like the Rubicon is well back in the review mirror."
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Old 12-06-2016, 10:18 AM   #81
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Does it really matter what legal reason it was closed, people? It had turned into an unrecoverable cesspit and members had dropped like flies.
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Old 12-06-2016, 10:24 AM   #82
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If legal reasons are being cited, then it's reasonable to ask what those reasons happen to be. I am sure no one wants to get the board in to legal hot water and just wants to know where the line is so we can avoid it.
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Old 12-06-2016, 11:38 AM   #83
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I’m not sure that I worded that well in my previous post.

To put it another way, it was not that we saw one mouse in the kitchen and decided to shut the restaurant down – it was that when we really looked into things we were pretty much infested, and it seemed unlikely that we could ever get rid of the infestation in that building. We weren’t expecting the health department to come in, or to look that carefully, but that didn’t mean that it wasn’t a problem. If we view the formal rules as a good guideline on acceptable behavior, the fact that we were well over the line meant we had a problem whether or not we were ever apt to have to deal with charges.

But there seemed to be people who liked the place, issues though it had. In fact, some are probably upset that the old place got shut down because they thought it was fine, although it also turns out that there are people who stopped coming ages ago because they’d seen things that turned them off. So it made sense to us to shut the restaurant down and open a new one, in a new place, with plans in place ahead of time to try to prevent a repeat infestation.

Now, rodents will be attracted to food, and people will escalate in arguments, so in either metaphorical or actual situation we recognize that it will be an ongoing struggle, but the hope is that it can be better than it was.
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Old 12-06-2016, 01:18 PM   #84
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I like the idea of a political board. I participate at this site on more boards than just political, but there being a place to discuss politics is a plus for me. Or it would be if there were actual discussion taking place. I have two of the most egregious people on my ignore list, and that made things more tolerable for me. What annoyed me a bit is that the conservative side of the aisle ended with very few participating, making those egregious two almost the entirety of the right side of the aisle. What annoyed me even more is that the others would not stop engaging them.
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Old 12-06-2016, 01:32 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Dromond View Post
I like the idea of a political board. I participate at this site on more boards than just political, but there being a place to discuss politics is a plus for me. Or it would be if there were actual discussion taking place. I have two of the most egregious people on my ignore list, and that made things more tolerable for me. What annoyed me a bit is that the conservative side of the aisle ended with very few participating, making those egregious two almost the entirety of the right side of the aisle. What annoyed me even more is that the others would not stop engaging them.
Well, don't you know, people have to "correct falsehoods" even if that person won't change their mind because "they can't let that stand."

So, they allow themselves to be trolled.
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Old 12-06-2016, 01:35 PM   #86
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I have observed two types of (more) conservative posters here at Dimensions since the creation of Hyde Park.

Variety A is here to argue politics and only politics. They don't really participate elsewhere on the site. It's about Hyde Park and only Hyde Park with a few rare exceptions. Not to name any names...but it's always been maybe one or two prominent conservatives and that's it.

Variety B tends to post elsewhere on the site (Lounge, BHM, and the Foodie Board) and Hyde Park has been lower on the list of places to stop. We (and I am definitely a Variety B type) tend to be more of a Libertarian bent and arguing incessantly just isn't our thing. Prolonged verbal warfare is pointless in our eyes. The reality that Dimensions is very left leaning is pretty obvious and we are under no such illusions otherwise. We don't see the point in putting our politics on full blast because we realize we are not changing minds and attitudes anytime soon consequences. That and the nastiness of the back and forth has been a turnoff.
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Old 12-06-2016, 01:45 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Deven View Post
Well, don't you know, people have to "correct falsehoods" even if that person won't change their mind because "they can't let that stand."

So, they allow themselves to be trolled.
I'm sorry u_u

I just like, it does really upset me when people spread lies about things.

And when they hurl insults at people for being different or having different opinions, and denigrate people who are different than them.

And when they try to argue that people who are different aren't worth helping.

It really grinds my goat's gears, yanno?
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:02 PM   #88
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I'm sorry u_u

It really grinds my goat's gears, yanno?
We can tell As can the people who can provoke you into infractionable posts on a regular basis ...

And I'm sure you are familiar with this, but all the same ....

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Old 12-06-2016, 02:14 PM   #89
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Yeah yeah
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Old 12-06-2016, 03:38 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Leishycat View Post
I'm sorry u_u

I just like, it does really upset me when people spread lies about things.

And when they hurl insults at people for being different or having different opinions, and denigrate people who are different than them.

And when they try to argue that people who are different aren't worth helping.

It really grinds my goat's gears, yanno?
And that's why you just ignore them and scroll by. They will eventually get bored enough and leave when they are not engaged, leaving room for actual discussion. They literally WANT to grind your goat's gears and you let them.

And someone else echoed your statement, so you aren't the only one.
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:29 PM   #91
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The following post is from the GLBTQ forum.

Source:
Quote:
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You would think.. But sadly , this often is not the case (and I live in Blue State)..There was one story that one of the ladies wearing the Hajib is a decorated off-duty NYC Police Officer and the offending individual, who harassed her, was apprehended and arrested...

The current political climate has now made it acceptable to go after people
Please explain exactly how this relates to the GLBTQ forum. Should it not be posted in a political forum like say … Hyde Park?

If the Mods are planning on letting some people post political opinions in the GLBTQ forum; then they should not be surprised that others will too.

BTW: “current political climate?”
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:41 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post
The following post is from the GLBTQ forum.

Source:
Please explain exactly how this relates to the GLBTQ forum. Should it not be posted in a political forum like say … Hyde Park?

If the Mods are planning on letting some people post political opinions in the GLBTQ forum; then they should not be surprised that others will too.

BTW: “current political climate?”
AUFKM...You sound jealous .better use that Happyland Phd of yours to good use....by the way you conveniently left out the earlier posting on that forum concerning your orange pal....
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:00 PM   #93
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AUFKM...You sound jealous .better use that Happyland Phd of yours to good use....by the way you conveniently left out the earlier posting on that forum concerning your orange pal....
Just how many times do you plan on modifying this post?

To the Mods: Just how does the cited post on the GLBTQ forum match up with this quote?

Source:
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopytheone View Post
Again, it has always been the case that this was allowed on the GLBTQ board. What isn't allowed and will not be allowed is political talk outside of issues pertaining to the GLBTQ lifestyle.
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:06 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post
To the Mods: Just how does the cited post on the GLBTQ forum match up with this quote?
It matches up perfectly as the abuse of minority groups is an issue that relates to LGBT people.

You are welcome to dislike my judgement/decision in regards to this. What you are not welcome to do is break the rules for the GLBTQ board that I have made abundantly clear here.
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:19 AM   #95
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AUFKM...You sound jealous .better use that Happyland Phd of yours to good use....by the way you conveniently left out the earlier posting on that forum concerning your orange pal....
See, this is what I mean. I can't escape him with the ignore function because people keep quoting and engaging his asinine behavior. Stop it already!!!
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:42 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dromond View Post
See, this is what I mean. I can't escape him with the ignore function because people keep quoting and engaging his asinine behavior. Stop it already!!!
I feel your pain! (Sarcasm!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopytheone View Post
It matches up perfectly as the abuse of minority groups is an issue that relates to LGBT people.
Then by you own logic I should be allowed to post in that forum. It has been said that most of the people on this site are liberals. As one of two conservatives that posts; that means I am a minority too.
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Originally Posted by Dromond View Post
You are welcome to dislike my judgement/decision in regards to this. What you are not welcome to do is break the rules for the GLBTQ board that I have made abundantly clear here.
Then perhaps you should follow you own rules and not change them at your whim. I cited your exact quote and now you are changing that.
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:57 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post
Then by you own logic I should be allowed to post in that forum. It has been said that most of the people on this site are liberals. As one of two conservatives that posts; that means I am a minority too.

Then perhaps you should follow you own rules and not change them at your whim. I cited your exact quote and now you are changing that.
Conservatives are not a minority group in society though, are they?

I literally have no idea how you think I am changing my mind on anything. I have said the same thing throughout this conversation and honestly, I'm beginning to run out of ways to try and make this clear to you. You obviously aren't understanding what I'm saying and I don't see why as I am making this as blunt and clear as possible.
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Old 12-08-2016, 07:22 AM   #98
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I did not see this in time to vote, haha, but I would be very interested in a new board.

People do not seem to realize that debating is not trying to force your opinion or radicalize a point. In true debates you often need to switch sides mid debate and argue for the idea you were against.

I would love to participate in more intellectual conversations with some people here, because I think we have more in common than just gut worship =p
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Old 12-08-2016, 07:33 AM   #99
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The quote pertains to a Muslim woman being harassed about her hijab and the discussion took place on the GLBTQ forum. Not about her being harassed for being GLBTQ. It wasn't even a discussion of whether or not Muslim discriminates against persons who are GLBTQ (which would make perfect sense in discussing in that particular forum).The clarification from the mod is "What isn't allowed and will not be allowed is political talk outside of issues pertaining to the GLBTQ lifestyle". So why that discussion was allowed to continue is beyond me as well.

Deliman has a valid point about the inherent problem of "open" safe spaces. People who identify as a member of that particular safe space's community can retreat to that forum and using it as a mechanism to attack large groups without fear of being refuted. I've seen it happen on multiple occasions on a few different forums here over the years even when the rules say otherwise.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:25 AM   #100
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There could be another issue here – I for one had not initially realized that the thread was on the GLBTQ forum rather than in HP (I was looking through the list of all new posts). I stopped posting in there once I realized, but I was looking at it as a political thread when I did post in it. That thread probably did dive a bit into general politics, and that is a bit out of scope for that board.

On the other hand:

That was one thread, and you’ll notice that the people participating in the discussion there have regularly posted in HP in the past. It is not like there has been a general movement to ‘hide’ political discussions there.

Personally I don’t particularly care if we have a perfectly level political playing field where there is an opportunity for a tat for every tit (on re-reading, that could get read the wrong way around here …..). When you look at that logo a the top of the page, you’ll notice that it says “Dimensions, where big is beautiful” not “Dimensions, a dedicated political debating forum.” Dimensions serves multiple overlapping communities, and isn’t fully dedicated to any one of them. There are sites that are fully dedicated to being safe places for various groups, sites fully dedicated to politics (or more often: a safe space for one political view or the other), sites dedicated to fat fetishism that strongly discourage other conversations. Dimensions has long been broader than that. So no, it isn’t designed as around the political debates – we are trying to make a space for that again, but the broader site frankly isn’t going to be changed to cater to that fairly small group.

And finally, ‘someone on the internet is wrong’ by your point of view. You know that you can just let them be ‘wrong’, right?
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