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Old 06-05-2013, 06:15 PM   #26
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hmmm... is it any better for a man to "wine and dine" a woman to get to the sex than to just be up front about it from the get go?

American men I think are especially taught this. Treat her like a lady to get what you really want from her.

You have other countries and cultures that will just be like "want to have sex"? No beating around the bush.

It doesn't mean the men OR women have ISSUES.
so where is this "want to have sex" culture? most of the world has lots of rituals attached to people getting together.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:25 PM   #27
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it's nice when some things in life aren't treated as trivial and mundane. life is short. it's fun to make some magic where we can. we all like sex but sex isn't all there is to it. you can only do it so many ways. courtship dating etc... is like art you create together. it's something to remember. art isn't necessary either but doesn't it make things beautiful to look at and stunning to listen too.

It depends who you are and what you want and like. People date for various reasons. I think the same can be said for "how to approach a fat girl". Some will respond the same but there are some that won't. I don't find it different from being just a woman and some guy says "you have lovely legs or breasts or bum". Some are going to say "get lost creep" and some might just smile and give the guy the time of day.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:33 PM   #28
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so where is this "want to have sex" culture? most of the world has lots of rituals attached to people getting together.
Its all around you. People don't go to the club for stimulating conversation.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:35 PM   #29
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It depends who you are and what you want and like. People date for various reasons. I think the same can be said for "how to approach a fat girl". Some will respond the same but there are some that won't. I don't find it different from being just a woman and some guy says "you have lovely legs or breasts or bum". Some are going to say "get lost creep" and some might just smile and give the guy the time of day.
definitely. i posted this here for the guys who get the get lost creep. guys here are always complaining that fat girls out and about won't give them the time of day. i'm just telling them why. personally speaking as open as i am and as much as i like myself at my size some guy telling me exactly how he likes my body first off is never going to be looked on well. it has absolutely nothing to do with my personal sexual appetite which are just as healthy as my appetite for food. i also know i'm not alone.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:38 PM   #30
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so where is this "want to have sex" culture? most of the world has lots of rituals attached to people getting together.

for some countries the concept of dating is They go out in groups and if they find someone interesting it can go from there but there is no actual dating. Have you ever been to Europe? One night stands are as common as breakfast. There is a separation between wanting to have sex and wanting to have a relationship. And they do not use one to get the other. They are more upfront about it.

I am not sure where you live or what you are exposed to but I would say people "hook up" more than they date in order to "look for love". And I am talking about here in the U.S.

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Old 06-05-2013, 06:40 PM   #31
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it's nice when some things in life aren't treated as trivial and mundane. life is short. it's fun to make some magic where we can. we all like sex but sex isn't all there is to it. you can only do it so many ways. courtship dating etc... is like art you create together. it's something to remember. art isn't necessary either but doesn't it make things beautiful to look at and stunning to listen too. it's the thing that keeps the spark going that a lot of people tend to lose. making everything ho hum and matter of a fact even from the very beginning won't help people to keep things exciting.
I'm going to tend to agree more with Bigmac's thought process instead on this one. A lot of the replies to him are rebuttals that communicate this idea there is only one way to have a successful, memorable relationship - and that bedding a woman without making a serious bid for her heart and respect somehow makes a man awful. Second-date sex isn't classically proven to be the smartest or most solid foundation to begin a long-term, meaningful relationship since it tends to create artificial intimacy and confusion a lot of the time, but implying that having sex right off the bat dooms the relationship to failure isn't any more fair than saying a relationship with no sex is doomed to failure.

On that note I'm going to say I think Bigmac is also right when he says you're basically best friends if there is no sex in the relationship. I agree. However, I guess the next question I'll beg is "what's wrong with that?" The man stated a fact. I love being in a relationship with my best friend. My girlfriend is my best friend, and there are moments I need her to be more my best friend than my girlfriend. If your best friend is the person who sticks by you through everything, fights your battles at your side, and keeps every secret and inside joke just between you two... well I don't think it gets more intimate than that.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:44 PM   #32
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... if you've just started dating someone being too aggressive on the first date isn't smart. ...


This is the primary misconception -- that its male aggressiveness that gets women to drop their pants. Believe it or not the world is full of women who like sex, who want sex, and who have no problem doing it on the first or second date.

The idea that its mean nasty aggressive men forcing sweet demur ladies into unwanted liaisons is pure unadulterated BS.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:45 PM   #33
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Its all around you. People don't go to the club for stimulating conversation.
anecdotally yes. but you should read some of the studies about how little single sex is actually happening. a few people are having lots but most are having very little. i think it's true that in our culture we talk a lot about sex but people who have to talk a lot are generally not the ones doing it. this whole country is an overgrown high school with a whole lot of cluelessness when it comes to sex not to mention relationships.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:49 PM   #34
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... if you've just started dating someone being too aggressive on the first date isn't smart. ...

This is the primary misconception -- that its male aggressiveness that gets women to drop their pants. Believe it or not the world is full of women who like sex, who want sex, and who have no problem doing it on the first or second date.

The idea that its mean nasty aggressive men forcing sweet demur ladies into unwanted liaisons is pure unadulterated BS.
Major agree right here. Women are the gatekeepers of sexuality, just as men are the gatekeepers of commitment. In a dating situation, it's entirely the woman's choice when sexual intimacy begins, if it even begins.

Just glad this was said. Thank you.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:50 PM   #35
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... if you've just started dating someone being too aggressive on the first date isn't smart. ...


This is the primary misconception -- that its male aggressiveness that gets women to drop their pants. Believe it or not the world is full of women who like sex, who want sex, and who have no problem doing it on the first or second date.

The idea that its mean nasty aggressive men forcing sweet demur ladies into unwanted liaisons is pure unadulterated BS.

i didn't say anything about nasty aggressive men. the someone referred to is both sexes. i still find it weird that people think the crotch is the seat of dating respect though. there are so many things that go into respecting someone. odd.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:57 PM   #36
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i didn't say anything about nasty aggressive men. that's all you.
The entire article actually approaches the dating dynamic from that standpoint... since all it's doing it coaching men on how to effectively approach someone who otherwise wouldn't notice or approach you. So it does hinge on men as the aggressors. Then you follow up stressing very heavily, an emotionally-holistic sort of intimacy as the only way for a real relationship to take off and gain momentum, else as you put it: "one way or another you'll pay for that lack of respect eventually in your relationship if it gets that far."

It sure sounds to me like a pass-or-fail on exactly when the right moment is to introduce sex as an activity (or even a consideration) in a dating relationship.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:01 PM   #37
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anecdotally yes. but you should read some of the studies about how little single sex is actually happening. a few people are having lots but most are having very little. i think it's true that in our culture we talk a lot about sex but people who have to talk a lot are generally not the ones doing it. this whole country is an overgrown high school with a whole lot of cluelessness when it comes to sex not to mention relationships.
I believe you're right about this. This country is indeed full of people who really need to get laid (including most GOP members of Congress). People who are sexually frustrated tend to be mean spirited.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:09 PM   #38
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I'm going to tend to agree more with Bigmac's thought process instead on this one. A lot of the replies to him are rebuttals that communicate this idea there is only one way to have a successful, memorable relationship - and that bedding a woman without making a serious bid for her heart and respect somehow makes a man awful. Second-date sex isn't classically proven to be the smartest or most solid foundation to begin a long-term, meaningful relationship since it tends to create artificial intimacy and confusion a lot of the time, but implying that having sex right off the bat dooms the relationship to failure isn't any more fair than saying a relationship with no sex is doomed to failure.

On that note I'm going to say I think Bigmac is also right when he says you're basically best friends if there is no sex in the relationship. I agree. However, I guess the next question I'll beg is "what's wrong with that?" The man stated a fact. I love being in a relationship with my best friend. My girlfriend is my best friend, and there are moments I need her to be more my best friend than my girlfriend. If your best friend is the person who sticks by you through everything, fights your battles at your side, and keeps every secret and inside joke just between you two... well I don't think it gets more intimate than that.

it may not be fair to say but it's statistically true. also no one said anything about a sexless relationship. how does respect come to equal no sex? waiting for a couple of dates is a far cry from being sexless. personally think a lot of guys do rush women because they already know that after a couple of dates she probably won't want to have sex with him so they want to slide in there early and able get a few endorphins working on their side

the fact is relationships where men don't respect women don't last nearly as often or as long as the ones where they do. if a guy isn't willing to invest anything in a relationship in terms of emotion or time etc... he doesn't actually want her. she is pretty much a convenience. this has been shown over and over again numerically.

women generally speaking might accept an awful lot until the new wears off . this is why you have a lot of divorces after starter marriages. even women who are abused often wake up eventually. women learn not to compromise so much on what they really want because of societal influences that tell them they are old fashioned or out of step of that they should be desperate for attention. but a woman only as one life and pretty soon she gets that it's too precious to waste on someone who doesn't value it. it's just like anything else. everybody has to have some skin in the game. if he has no skin in he really isn't in it.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:15 PM   #39
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I believe you're right about this. This country is indeed full of people who really need to get laid (including most GOP members of Congress). People who are sexually frustrated tend to be mean spirited.
lol i think they're getting laid but not by people who care about them. they've been doling out shekels t the most talented conveyors of sex forever and marrying for convenience. it isn't enough just to get laid. after some point you want to mean something to someone. that's when it really gets to be extremely satisfying.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:21 PM   #40
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The entire article actually approaches the dating dynamic from that standpoint... since all it's doing it coaching men on how to effectively approach someone who otherwise wouldn't notice or approach you. So it does hinge on men as the aggressors. Then you follow up stressing very heavily, an emotionally-holistic sort of intimacy as the only way for a real relationship to take off and gain momentum, else as you put it: "one way or another you'll pay for that lack of respect eventually in your relationship if it gets that far."

It sure sounds to me like a pass-or-fail on exactly when the right moment is to introduce sex as an activity (or even a consideration) in a dating relationship.
so are you still equating respect with whether or not someone has sex? mainly the article is about fat women still being women and wanting to be told that they are beautiful which is sensual but perhaps not so overtly sexual. there are women who don't always want everything to be so blunt. there is a different connotation in telling a woman she is beautiful and telling her she is hot. and there is a similar relationship between dating and just hooking up.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:25 PM   #41
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Judging someone for whether they do or don't put out on the first date, or early on in dating, is ridiculous. Saying that women who have sex early on have problems just perpetuates the purity myth, that a woman's worth is only in based on how and when she gives up the goods.

There is a BIG difference between saying "I don't feel comfortable rushing into sex" and "People who rush into sex have problems". One is a preference the other is a judgement. Learn the difference! One is okay to have, the other isn't.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:27 PM   #42
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...

the fact is relationships where men don't respect women don't last nearly as often or as long as the ones where they do. if a guy isn't willing to invest anything in a relationship in terms of emotion or time etc... he doesn't actually want her. she is pretty much a convenience. this has been shown over and over again numerically.

... .
Disagree totally. Whether I respect a woman or not depends upon her accomplishments -- not her ability to keep her legs closed.

Likewise, whether or not to invest in a relationship depends upon the woman's longterm desirability -- everything from physical features, to earning potential, to genetics. Withholding sex doesn't encourage guys to invest in a relationship -- indeed it does just the opposite.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:27 PM   #43
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one last thought before i crash tonight. one aspect of respect is when a woman tells you how she feels about something you listen and don't spend all of your time telling her why she doesn't have a right to feel that way instead you try and understand her.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:29 PM   #44
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Disagree totally. Whether I respect a woman or not depends upon her accomplishments -- not her ability to keep her legs closed.

Likewise, whether or not to invest in a relationship depends upon the woman's longterm desirability -- everything from physical features, to earning potential, to genetics. Withholding sex doesn't encourage guys to invest in a relationship -- indeed it does just the opposite.
respect is also being cognizant of what you should have to offer her
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:37 PM   #45
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Judging someone for whether they do or don't put out on the first date, or early on in dating, is ridiculous. Saying that women who have sex early on have problems just perpetuates the purity myth, that a woman's worth is only in based on how and when she gives up the goods.

There is a BIG difference between saying "I don't feel comfortable rushing into sex" and "People who rush into sex have problems". One is a preference the other is a judgement. Learn the difference! One is okay to have, the other isn't.
Yes, I agree. That's why I brought up the idea of sexual compatibility. The number one rule must always be that no one should ever be pressured into doing something they don't want to do.

But if both parties want why wait.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:40 PM   #46
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respect is also being cognizant of what you should have to offer her
Of course -- that's why I went to law school (that and classrooms full of 13-year-olds were wearing on me).

Last edited by bigmac; 06-05-2013 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:42 PM   #47
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I prefer courtship where sex isn't the very first thing we talk about since as a well rounded professional, I don't spend 24 hrs or close to it doing the horizontal tango so I'd like to talk about my career, my travels, a recipe I've just tried or book I just read. But that's more of a personal preference than a respect issue for me. I don't begrudge women their right and perogative to do what they want on a first date. I don't really co-sign the Respectability politics that I'm sensing. It's kind of antiquated in the same way men should be the dominant one, the pursuer, etc. Sure, it works great for some but it isn't a hard and fast rule for everyone.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:45 PM   #48
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one last thought before i crash tonight. one aspect of respect is when a woman tells you how she feels about something you listen and don't spend all of your time telling her why she doesn't have a right to feel that way instead you try and understand her.
Got to admit that being a rather literal and physically oriented person I tend to zone out when the topic turns to "feelings." This has peeved many women over the years.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:49 PM   #49
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Judging someone for whether they do or don't put out on the first date, or early on in dating, is ridiculous. Saying that women who have sex early on have problems just perpetuates the purity myth, that a woman's worth is only in based on how and when she gives up the goods.

There is a BIG difference between saying "I don't feel comfortable rushing into sex" and "People who rush into sex have problems". One is a preference the other is a judgement. Learn the difference! One is okay to have, the other isn't.

the last paragraph is exactly what i was saying. i'm not talking about "when to put out" as some kind of reward for a certain behavior. i'm talking about taking the time to get to know each other and putting each other's personhood first. i think the guys are talking about the purity myth though. it's a whole different animal.

i think a lot of guys use quasi feminist aversion to the purity myth as another way to hoodwink women into not taking the time to examine them and whether they really want them or not. it's another part of the gaming strategy. put her on the defensive. make her feel there is something wrong with taking her time. tell her she is pent up and sexless and backwards if she does. it's right out of the book,an old school fifties book at that.

we don't have to be in a hurry. there is no rush. we can think about things-especially in a time of STDs and domestic abuse etc... we have that right as well. we can have the time to find out if he's married or has 8 children we don't know about. we can see if he has an arrest record. we can just plain old figure out if we really enjoy his company. i wouldn't trust a grown man in that kind of a hurry. a normal grown man has had plenty of sex before. he won't die if he doesn't have it right away. if he's pushing or looking for quick sex he probably has something to hide. we shouldn't be in that kind of a hurry either because we don't need to be.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:53 PM   #50
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Got to admit that being a rather literal and physically oriented person I tend to zone out when the topic turns to "feelings." This has peeved many women over the years.
see if i were trying to date someone that is the something i'd want to find out about first because it's important on my personal list
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