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Old 06-05-2013, 07:58 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ashmamma84 View Post
I prefer courtship where sex isn't the very first thing we talk about since as a well rounded professional, I don't spend 24 hrs or close to it doing the horizontal tango so I'd like to talk about my career, my travels, a recipe I've just tried or book I just read. But that's more of a personal preference than a respect issue for me. I don't begrudge women their right and perogative to do what they want on a first date. I don't really co-sign the Respectability politics that I'm sensing. It's kind of antiquated in the same way men should be the dominant one, the pursuer, etc. Sure, it works great for some but it isn't a hard and fast rule for everyone.
i agree with all of this. men don't have to pursue but they have to contribute something. every partner has to contribute something in a relationship.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:01 PM   #52
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Disagree totally. Whether I respect a woman or not depends upon her accomplishments -- not her ability to keep her legs closed.

Likewise, whether or not to invest in a relationship depends upon the woman's longterm desirability -- everything from physical features, to earning potential, to genetics. Withholding sex doesn't encourage guys to invest in a relationship -- indeed it does just the opposite.
I'd like to re-emphasize Bigmac's comment, to highlight the actual point attempting to be made. We don't want anyone to miss that sex and respect aren't linked inseparably. Whether or not someone plays along with sexual advances, is sexually aggressive, or has sex on the first or second date, is not the entire issue of respect wrapped up in one element of the releationship. It isn't as simple as "if you want sex too early and you're too aggressive, you're being disrespectful." It may be true for Superodalisque and what she wants or doesn't want from a man when they start dating, and that's fine! But it seems a gross overstatement to oversimplify a man's sex drive as being the murder weapon that kills his respect for a woman.

What I find really inside-out is that I heard Superodalisque say, "i still find it weird that people think the crotch is the seat of dating respect though. there are so many things that go into respecting someone. odd" and then "so are you still equating respect with whether or not someone has sex?" As though it wasn't obvious from her previous comments why respect and sex were being discussed as such closely-linked elements in a relationship. I was reading "sex/sexual banter/sexual aggression too early = rude and will ruin your relationship" from her comments like "dating a woman to find her fuckabilty quotient is not respecting her." That's what I find odd. She says "the guys" are the ones who are equating respect in relation to sex, but she was the one who's been doing that repeatedly... AND it was the point of the article, that the woman is more than just a plus-sized female body to be approached for sex. And I'm sorry, I thought that my honorable mention on how being in a relationship with my best friend is awesome with all the non-sexual intimacy we share just being so close, would have been worth something in further validating my stance and showing my agreement but I guess not.

("Also no one said anything about a sexless relationship. how does respect come to equal no sex?" My use of hyperbole was referencing Bigmac's earlier comment: "if there isn't at least some sexually charged communication by the end of the first date the relationship is doomed." I write comments about the discussion as a whole, not just things one person said.)

I'm sorry, I just don't put in the effort to comment, just for someone to give it a half-read and then misrepresent what I was saying 2 seconds later.

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Old 06-06-2013, 01:33 AM   #53
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There is nothing wrong with having sex on the first date. Or before the date. Sex is great! Do what makes you feel good, and be safe while doing so - emotionally and physically. If you want to slut around, then go for it. I certainly had fun doing it. WHY a person is doing it can be important - doing it to get love/attention does speak of underlying problems, while doing it because you want to get laid without being in a relationship is doesn't.

Plenty of women subscribe to the purity myth, too, which is why so many girls get the reputation of being a slut, and it doesn't matter how many people they have or haven't slept with. My worth is not in my cunt. My worth is not in how many people have or haven't been there, or when they did get there. I will fuck who I want, when I want. I've done it on the first date, I've done it without dating. I've waited a couple of dates, and others I haven't slept with at all.

You can respect someone AND sleep with them on the first date. You can respect someone AND never sleep with them. The trick to relationships is finding someone who's compatible with you. If you're not comfortable having sex early on, then let those you date know that - but don't judge them as disrespectful if they do want it early. Cut your losses and move on. Sexual compatibility is a HUGE part of a relationship's success. It can be the glue that holds you together when times are tough. It can help you get through the rough times. If you're in a relationship with someone whose sexual needs, expectations, and preferences are drastically different, then it's probably not going to last.

Figure out what works for you and stick to it. Don't let other people's preferences or hang ups decide what works for you.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:03 AM   #54
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There is nothing wrong with having sex on the first date. Or before the date. Sex is great! Do what makes you feel good, and be safe while doing so - emotionally and physically. If you want to slut around, then go for it. I certainly had fun doing it. WHY a person is doing it can be important - doing it to get love/attention does speak of underlying problems, while doing it because you want to get laid without being in a relationship is doesn't.

Plenty of women subscribe to the purity myth, too, which is why so many girls get the reputation of being a slut, and it doesn't matter how many people they have or haven't slept with. My worth is not in my cunt. My worth is not in how many people have or haven't been there, or when they did get there. I will fuck who I want, when I want. I've done it on the first date, I've done it without dating. I've waited a couple of dates, and others I haven't slept with at all.

You can respect someone AND sleep with them on the first date. You can respect someone AND never sleep with them. The trick to relationships is finding someone who's compatible with you. If you're not comfortable having sex early on, then let those you date know that - but don't judge them as disrespectful if they do want it early. Cut your losses and move on. Sexual compatibility is a HUGE part of a relationship's success. It can be the glue that holds you together when times are tough. It can help you get through the rough times. If you're in a relationship with someone whose sexual needs, expectations, and preferences are drastically different, then it's probably not going to last.

Figure out what works for you and stick to it. Don't let other people's preferences or hang ups decide what works for you.
Here, here! xXx
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:57 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by penguin View Post
There is nothing wrong with having sex on the first date. Or before the date. Sex is great! Do what makes you feel good, and be safe while doing so - emotionally and physically. If you want to slut around, then go for it. I certainly had fun doing it. WHY a person is doing it can be important - doing it to get love/attention does speak of underlying problems, while doing it because you want to get laid without being in a relationship is doesn't.

Plenty of women subscribe to the purity myth, too, which is why so many girls get the reputation of being a slut, and it doesn't matter how many people they have or haven't slept with. My worth is not in my cunt. My worth is not in how many people have or haven't been there, or when they did get there. I will fuck who I want, when I want. I've done it on the first date, I've done it without dating. I've waited a couple of dates, and others I haven't slept with at all.

You can respect someone AND sleep with them on the first date. You can respect someone AND never sleep with them. The trick to relationships is finding someone who's compatible with you. If you're not comfortable having sex early on, then let those you date know that - but don't judge them as disrespectful if they do want it early. Cut your losses and move on. Sexual compatibility is a HUGE part of a relationship's success. It can be the glue that holds you together when times are tough. It can help you get through the rough times. If you're in a relationship with someone whose sexual needs, expectations, and preferences are drastically different, then it's probably not going to last.

Figure out what works for you and stick to it. Don't let other people's preferences or hang ups decide what works for you.
Omg I feel so much better. This should be framed someplace. I think I'll just copy-paste this into a word document to distribute to everyone I know.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:01 AM   #56
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Regarding the "respect" thing -- again I'm thinking many people have this backwards.

Who wants to sleep with someone you don't respect? I sure don't. Indeed over the years I've declined three express offers from women I didn't respect.

In my world sex is something you do with people you actually like and respect. Thus sex should be considered a very respectful act. Its evidence that you hold each other in enough esteem to open up to them in a most intimate way.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:04 AM   #57
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I just thought I would give an example of an "early sex" "only sex" relationship blooming and lasting.

One of my sisters and her husband (who she met while he was in the military and from what I was told, he was very promiscuous, my sister was not) pretty much started their relationship with sex sex and more sex. I am pretty sure their first date (if there was one) started at a bar and ended back at his place. They developed feelings for each other over time, lived together, then got married about one year later. They have been married for over 11 years now and have 2 children together... going strong.



oh! I wanted to add, the way they met... he went up to her and told her that she had a nice behind haha

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Old 06-06-2013, 10:15 AM   #58
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Friends of mine who are married or in long term relationships have gotten there in all sorts of ways. One started as a low stress sexual fling when they were both in dying relationships, which is about as unpromising as you could imagine for starting a long term relationship. Another swooped in on a young woman who had just broken up with another friend—causing no small stress in our group. One was newly single and determined not to get involved with anyone for a while, when he was at a bar where a group was demonstrating salsa dancing, he hit on one of the dancers afterward. All of those couples have been together for at least fifteen years, have kids, and look fairly promising to make it through for the long haul (although you never know for sure….)

My wife and I were probably the most traditional of the bunch, in that we met, flirted, did things with a group, went on some dates, met family, all before we got all that intimate—but my feeling was that if it is going to be a long term relationship there will be plenty of time for taking clothes off, and that if you don’t want to be together without the sex component then there probably isn’t enough for me to be satisfied with the relationship in the long term. Then again, I was never a rock star having to fend off female attention, nor did I have any belief that I’d have magical powers in bed, so it may be that I was intuitively playing to my strengths. If you are confident that you can keep someone wanting to come back to you and develop a broader interest in you through more intimate activity, more power to you.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:35 PM   #59
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Friends of mine who are married or in long term relationships have gotten there in all sorts of ways. One started as a low stress sexual fling when they were both in dying relationships, which is about as unpromising as you could imagine for starting a long term relationship. Another swooped in on a young woman who had just broken up with another friend—causing no small stress in our group. One was newly single and determined not to get involved with anyone for a while, when he was at a bar where a group was demonstrating salsa dancing, he hit on one of the dancers afterward. All of those couples have been together for at least fifteen years, have kids, and look fairly promising to make it through for the long haul (although you never know for sure….)

My wife and I were probably the most traditional of the bunch, in that we met, flirted, did things with a group, went on some dates, met family, all before we got all that intimate—but my feeling was that if it is going to be a long term relationship there will be plenty of time for taking clothes off, and that if you don’t want to be together without the sex component then there probably isn’t enough for me to be satisfied with the relationship in the long term. Then again, I was never a rock star having to fend off female attention, nor did I have any belief that I’d have magical powers in bed, so it may be that I was intuitively playing to my strengths. If you are confident that you can keep someone wanting to come back to you and develop a broader interest in you through more intimate activity, more power to you.
well for me personally, I can't even consider sexin' unless 1) I am in a committed relationship 2) I love the person from my head to my toes deep 3) he is sexy

But I can argue for the other side(s) and not say that my way is the only highway eh?!
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:18 PM   #60
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well for me personally, I can't even consider sexin' unless 1) I am in a committed relationship 2) I love the person from my head to my toes deep 3) he is sexy

But I can argue for the other side(s) and not say that my way is the only highway eh?!
That was kind of what I was trying to get at--that although my wife and I took the more traditional route, I know that people get to good relationships by all sorts of routes.

You managed to say it more clearly, in as third as many words
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:48 PM   #61
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Omg I feel so much better. This should be framed someplace. I think I'll just copy-paste this into a word document to distribute to everyone I know.
Hah, happy to help

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well for me personally, I can't even consider sexin' unless 1) I am in a committed relationship 2) I love the person from my head to my toes deep 3) he is sexy

But I can argue for the other side(s) and not say that my way is the only highway eh?!
Your way definitely works for you!

My brother and his wife started out as FWB, nothing more. No strings, just casual rumpy pumpy. Then they went and fell in love. They've been married for something like 15 years now, together for about 20.
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:40 PM   #62
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I think that using 'RULES' for dating is basically setting people up for failure regardless of the person's looks, etc.

I basically roll out 'guns blazing' and 'shoot from the hip' when I am dating. If the girl isn't feeling it- so what, there are like billions of women in the world and I if desperately needed to reproduce I could go find myself a hood-rat, buy a wife from Georgia (the country not the state ), or be a complete ass and set a chick up.

But I am never desperate. I think if there were any actual rules for dating it should simply be- 'do what works'.

I have been on dates with women and literally told them- "Ya know what let's just go have a good time and I'll take ya' back home." because I knew they weren't going to be compatible or vice versa.

If you're looking for love and waiting for your God to give you an answer, or trying to use a checklist, or some other crap you are wasting your time. Go with what works naturally.

AND to directly relate to the mentioned 'Rules for Dating Fat Girls', I have told thick girls on first-dates that the reason I am so attracted to them is that they are bigger, and to not be bothered by it. I've been slapped for that, I've helped lighten the mood, I've scored off of it, etc. Not everyone will respond the same, but it is how I feel, and think, and I am never afraid to be myself when courting.

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Old 06-09-2013, 12:35 AM   #63
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hmm what an odd turn this conversation has taken. we went from fat women want to be treated like other women terms of being respected on a date to agreeing that female objectification is a sound basis for a healthy relationship. i have to think on that one. i really feel i'm in the middle of that crumb documentary.
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:49 AM   #64
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a friend asked me once why she never gets paid any serious attention. my answer: because they don't have to.
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Old 06-09-2013, 05:52 AM   #65
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hmm what an odd turn this conversation has taken. we went from fat women want to be treated like other women terms of being respected on a date to agreeing that female objectification is a sound basis for a healthy relationship. i have to think on that one. i really feel i'm in the middle of that crumb documentary.

oy vey! I am beginning to see why others say there is no point in responding to you
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Old 06-09-2013, 07:43 AM   #66
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hmm what an odd turn this conversation has taken. we went from fat women want to be treated like other women terms of being respected on a date to agreeing that female objectification is a sound basis for a healthy relationship. i have to think on that one. i really feel i'm in the middle of that crumb documentary.
You seem to be missing the point. How the hell is having sex with a woman being disrespectful to that woman?


Also, every dating//significant other//marital relationship has a sexual component. Acknowledging this is not objectifying women -- at least not in any unreasonable way. And its a two way street -- women put men to the sexual desirability//compatibility test all the time as well.



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a friend asked me once why she never gets paid any serious attention. my answer: because they don't have to.

If I'm understanding you correctly you're implying that guys don't get serious with your friend because she gives it up too easily. I don't know your friend or any of her circumstances. However, a doubt being more circumspect sexually will change anything. Indeed being more chaste is likely to make men even less likely to commit (and deprive her of the sexual enjoyment as well). A sexually inhibited woman is not going to attract many guys (with serious attentions or otherwise).

Also, the current economic situation has made it impossible for many men to actually get serious. There are fewer are fewer marriage age men with the resources to actually get married. The fact that your friend is having trouble finding a man looking for a serious relationship may have more to do with economics than it does with her sexual proclivities (anther reason to avoid voting GOP).

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Old 06-09-2013, 11:55 AM   #67
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You seem to be missing the point. How the hell is having sex with a woman being disrespectful to that woman?


Also, every dating//significant other//marital relationship has a sexual component. Acknowledging this is not objectifying women -- at least not in any unreasonable way. And its a two way street -- women put men to the sexual desirability//compatibility test all the time as well.
If I'm understanding you correctly you're implying that guys don't get serious with your friend because she gives it up too easily. I don't know your friend or any of her circumstances. However, a doubt being more circumspect sexually will change anything. Indeed being more chaste is likely to make men even less likely to commit (and deprive her of the sexual enjoyment as well). A sexually inhibited woman is not going to attract many guys (with serious attentions or otherwise).

Also, the current economic situation has made it impossible for many men to actually get serious. There are fewer are fewer marriage age men with the resources to actually get married. The fact that your friend is having trouble finding a man looking for a serious relationship may have more to do with economics than it does with her sexual proclivities (anther reason to avoid voting GOP).

no you are not reading me right at all. you still think that respecting a woman has something to do with sex. it's understood like someone said earlier that people often operate off their basic instincts in the beginning but everyone doesn't have to go back and start at square one of Maslow's hierarchy every time they have a relationship whether it's a man or a woman.


money has absolutely nothing to do with being serious about showing a person respect.
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:07 PM   #68
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for some countries the concept of dating is They go out in groups and if they find someone interesting it can go from there but there is no actual dating. Have you ever been to Europe? One night stands are as common as breakfast. There is a separation between wanting to have sex and wanting to have a relationship. And they do not use one to get the other. They are more upfront about it.

I am not sure where you live or what you are exposed to but I would say people "hook up" more than they date in order to "look for love". And I am talking about here in the U.S.
i have been to europe. i even lived there for periods of time. dating is very different from a pick up and they definitely know the difference. i'm not sure americans know the difference though.
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:11 PM   #69
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Of course -- that's why I went to law school (that and classrooms full of 13-year-olds were wearing on me).
the what you have to give her i was referring to was not money but human to human respect and understanding
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:19 PM   #70
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Regarding the "respect" thing -- again I'm thinking many people have this backwards.

Who wants to sleep with someone you don't respect? I sure don't. Indeed over the years I've declined three express offers from women I didn't respect.

In my world sex is something you do with people you actually like and respect. Thus sex should be considered a very respectful act. Its evidence that you hold each other in enough esteem to open up to them in a most intimate way.
my point exactly. and all the writer was talking about was how to portray that aspect of respect to the fat women who do often turn down men who happen to be physically attracted to them. there are fat women who might respond to overt sexual expressions from a stranger but most women i know get pretty creeped out by people who want to get sexual with them when they are just meeting and don't know each other. people need at least a little time to gauge whether something said is serious or a joke. in other words everyone needs at east a little time to figure out if the person they are dealing with is treating them with respect or whether they respect that person. i don't know anyone who can figure that out right off the bat unless they are psychic. what she is saying is that going up to some strange fat woman and talking about her weight and fawning over it is not going to get you much of anywhere with anyone with any sense anymore than it would to go up to a strange woman and start talking about her boobs will. i mean i thought that was pretty much common sense as far as what i've seen IRL. i just never thought that it would be considered to be a normal thing to go off and have sex with a strange guy just because he says he is sexually attracted to weighty women. if they do they are setting themselves up to be hogged among many other things. smart women just don't do that.

i'm not sure people really even read what she had to say
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Old 06-09-2013, 01:36 PM   #71
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i have been to europe. i even lived there for periods of time. dating is very different from a pick up and they definitely know the difference. i'm not sure americans know the difference though.
Um, yea, we do. Stop acting like people who enjoy hookups are damaged or stupid or otherwise not fully realized adults. We are. We just aren't in the right place now for a relationship. Stop projecting your values, morals and desires onto the rest of us.
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Old 06-09-2013, 03:18 PM   #72
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we went from fat women want to be treated like other women terms of being respected on a date to agreeing that female objectification is a sound basis for a healthy relationship.
What? Where? I don't recall anyone saying that, let alone everyone else agreeing with it.

Newsflash: Women like sex, too. Women also like to be sexually aggressive. Some women prefer to have one night stands or have sex on the first date. This does not mean they're being objectified or disrespecting themselves. It means their needs and preferences are different to yours.

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Um, yea, we do. Stop acting like people who enjoy hookups are damaged or stupid or otherwise not fully realized adults. We are. We just aren't in the right place now for a relationship. Stop projecting your values, morals and desires onto the rest of us.
YES! THIS! People need to learn the difference between a preference and a judgement, AND how to express those differences properly. If you call someone a slut because you don't like how she dresses, I'll call you out on it. Say that you while wouldn't feel comfortable wearing XYZ but that she seems to carry it with confidence is fine.

A woman's worth is NOT in how much she does or doesn't have sex. Quit confusing respect with waiting. Quit confusing respect with being treated like property. They're not the same. It's an outdated social construct. Let's move forward a century or two, hey?
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Old 06-09-2013, 03:25 PM   #73
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Um, yea, we do. Stop acting like people who enjoy hookups are damaged or stupid or otherwise not fully realized adults. We are. We just aren't in the right place now for a relationship. Stop projecting your values, morals and desires onto the rest of us.
Yes, excellent point. Also, the world is full of nice people you can have mutual fun with but with who for one reason or another aren't right for a long-term relationship.

Its been my experience that when presented with the right person at the right time supposedly commitment phobic guys have no problem committing. I proposed to my wife on our sixth date.
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Old 06-09-2013, 06:28 PM   #74
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my point exactly. and all the writer was talking about was how to portray that aspect of respect to the fat women who do often turn down men who happen to be physically attracted to them. there are fat women who might respond to overt sexual expressions from a stranger but most women i know get pretty creeped out by people who want to get sexual with them when they are just meeting and don't know each other. people need at least a little time to gauge whether something said is serious or a joke. in other words everyone needs at east a little time to figure out if the person they are dealing with is treating them with respect or whether they respect that person. i don't know anyone who can figure that out right off the bat unless they are psychic. what she is saying is that going up to some strange fat woman and talking about her weight and fawning over it is not going to get you much of anywhere with anyone with any sense anymore than it would to go up to a strange woman and start talking about her boobs will. i mean i thought that was pretty much common sense as far as what i've seen IRL. i just never thought that it would be considered to be a normal thing to go off and have sex with a strange guy just because he says he is sexually attracted to weighty women. if they do they are setting themselves up to be hogged among many other things. smart women just don't do that.

i'm not sure people really even read what she had to say

I've read what you've said and over and over again you restate a problem with women being true to their sexual nature (i.e. that they want sex as much as men do) and over and over you reiterate an inability to comprehend any scenario other than that of an a sexual aggressive man chasing and pressuring a passive woman.

In today's world women participate in the chase at least as much as men. We're not talking about people propositioning each other on the street corner. Men and women meet each other in a multitude of ways. When a man and a woman meet each other in a social setting it doesn't take long to figure out whether or not there's chemistry (i.e. less than an hour -- often less than a few minutes).

IMHO you don't need to know a person on a deep cosmic level to have sex -- all that's required is that they seem cool and likable. I never learned my ex's name until the morning after we met when she wrote it on a scrap of paper along with her phone number -- there was going to be an awkward moment if she hadn't. We were together for 17 years after that.

What you need to comprehend is that women no longer passively await male propositions -- if they ever did.
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:10 PM   #75
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i'm not sure people really even read what she had to say
LOL it is possible to read and understand something perfectly and still have critical things to say about it and the premise from which it is written.
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