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Old 07-31-2006, 01:04 PM   #51
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Default Jeez, we're as bad as the folks who torment us fat folks

Ebonyssbbw's comments are I believe exactly on point. We're all looking at one picture, which is clearly staged(and i remember reading about it at the time this came out when these people were interviewed and said they didn't eat like this but the folks taking the pictures and promoting some sort of diet program they were all going to go on insisted), and assuming many different things about these people.

First, we are assuming they ate this kind of food and just sat around on the couch like they are shown.

Second, we are assuming that those who died passed away as a result of some fat or eating related activities. It is possible they were hit by a bus, struck by lightning, were involved in gang violence or had cancer, a congenital condition or any other types of problems unrelated to their weight or eating.

Third, we are making as many assumptions about the lives they live or lived from one picture as most skinny folks or fat-hating folks make when they look at a fat person and assume that they know all about us.

For all of us fat folks this is a very sad commentary on our society if we react in the same way as do those who hate fat people. Ebony has it right, we can't allow ourselves to assume anything without more information. If we do so we fall into the same trap that we despise in others who make fun of and torment fat folks as having all sorts of awful habits and being responsible for being fat, etc.

*getting off the soapbox again*

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Old 07-31-2006, 01:16 PM   #52
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Quote:
I would feel A LOT of anger that this person got into a car and killed other human beings.
True. That is, if you were to witness this crime firsthand (or second or third etc.). I wholly understand your point, and agree with the idea of resposibility of individuals. However, when faced with an article about people I don't know and don't know what really happened to them, I guess taking a cooler approach is easier. I'm not saying your - or anyone elses - criticism or anger is unbased. However, we shouldn't see this as a sitution with only two victims (daughters) and one wicked mother, but instead realize that she (the mother) was also a "victim". If the general hypothesis here is correct - meaning that their deaths were closely linked to their weight. Which we still can't know.
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:59 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses
True. That is, if you were to witness this crime firsthand (or second or third etc.). I wholly understand your point, and agree with the idea of resposibility of individuals. However, when faced with an article about people I don't know and don't know what really happened to them, I guess taking a cooler approach is easier. I'm not saying your - or anyone elses - criticism or anger is unbased. However, we shouldn't see this as a sitution with only two victims (daughters) and one wicked mother, but instead realize that she (the mother) was also a "victim". If the general hypothesis here is correct - meaning that their deaths were closely linked to their weight. Which we still can't know.
Actually, when I read an article about someone getting into a car...drunk..and they go on to kill or maim another human being..I see red...THEN..without thinking the killing is less tragic...I can see better the addiction(if there was one) of the person doing the killing.
Of course the mom in this situation might have been a victim..of all kinds of things..and for that I am sad, as I am sad for all of us who struggle in this world.I don't know if the daughters who died, died because of complications due to being big, but I would bet that if that did not kill them..it was making their lives hell.I am sorry, but this is NOT fat bashing!I have seen many thread on these forums judging people right and left..including parents who do a pretty crappy job( and the issue not being about weight) Sometimes a banana IS just a yellow piece of fruit.Sometimes someone saying..."gee, how about getting some help for your 15 year old"(no matter the issue)..is not about fat hating..it is about a child.This should actually be the place where fat people are real, and fighting true fat hatred...I am not a fat basher...sorry...nice try (sorry, Ulysses, I was not directing all this at you)
I understand the pain that so many of us on Dimensions have felt at various stages( or all our lives)It just tears me up to see children in such desperate situations..and yes...I look at the parents first..I think it is a normal and sane reaction.That this mom felt she had nowhere to turn(and if it is true that she wanted help for her kids/her..she knew things were not ok!)..makes me even angrier at how this country throws away so many human beings!!!!
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:32 PM   #54
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I agree with Mossy. The mother certainly does bare some responsibility for the health and welfare of her children as well as her own.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:24 PM   #55
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Many of you are still falling into the fallible belief that fat is only the result of overeating.

Some scientists nowadays are starting to see the truth, and finally, that prejudice is being lifted. Many overweight people are victims of genetics in so many ways. Metabolism, cravings, appetite, and more is being linked with genetics.

So, remember a few things:

we don't know much about these peoples stories.
we can predict that there is some genetic tendency towards obesity.
I believe all the daughters were consenting adults.
We don't know what these people wanted, they may have been very happy.
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:58 PM   #56
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I believe all the daughters were consenting adults.
We don't know what these people wanted, they may have been very happy.[/QUOTE]

If 15 is an adult, who can consent to..whatever..then why have those pesky laws protecting 15 year olds from sexual predators?..hmmmm...and someone on this thread said the mom was trying to finally get some help..does not sound like a bed of roses.
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Old 07-31-2006, 07:45 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossystate
Rainahblue,if I saw a picture of a small child locked in a car(or unlocked car) while the parent on dutywas not on the scene, you better BELIEVE I would judge that parent!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, would I then, after my inital anger, look at all the issues surrounding the very image or information which boiled my blood in the first place?....of course.So, seems you are doing the very thing you hate..you are lumping all of us 'horrible' people together.
I think there can be at least WHISPERS of taking some personal responsibilties for our lives, and certainly the lives of human beings we decide to bring into this world.I find the whole situation sad beyond belief..on so many levels.I wish that mom could have gotten help for herself and her babies.
Ulysses, you mentioned alcoholism.While I am the first person to see all those layers of an onion(much to the irritation of many I know), if that alcoholic got into a car and rammed it into another car..full of people not drinking and driving..you would not just say.."gee, he/she had an addiction"...and neither would I.I would get around to that, trust me(onion peeler that I am), but I would feel A LOT of anger that this person got into a car and killed other human beings.
I also understand that my comments about this woman came from my initial reaction to what I saw..and Rainahblue and a few others have reacted to ME the same way...sooooo..now that I hope we understand the layers involved in situations liek this..we can understand why we ALL feel/felt the way we do/did.Pretending we don't see something never solves anything...and to never feel any compassion is the biggest killer of them all.
mossystate, please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't refer to anyone as being a "horrible" person, nor did I specifically single out any one poster. I was speaking of the general attitude of assuming certain things about someone's lifestyle from a photo that more than likely doesn't even represent their actual everyday lives.

Using the comparison of seeing a child locked in a car to the photo from a national tabloid seems silly to me. This was not a crime scene photo. This was not a candid shot taken secretly and published for the world to discover. I can assume from the photo and surrounding story that the woman had asked for and not recieved dietary and/or medical assistance from her community or government, so she did what many people do as a last resort: she called the people willing to at least pay her for her story. Beyond that, no one besides the family's other members and friends knows what their situation was.

It's a popular mentality, and a sad one, to automatically assume the worst about things.
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Old 07-31-2006, 07:47 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy FA
Ebonyssbbw's comments are I believe exactly on point. We're all looking at one picture, which is clearly staged(and i remember reading about it at the time this came out when these people were interviewed and said they didn't eat like this but the folks taking the pictures and promoting some sort of diet program they were all going to go on insisted), and assuming many different things about these people.

First, we are assuming they ate this kind of food and just sat around on the couch like they are shown.

Second, we are assuming that those who died passed away as a result of some fat or eating related activities. It is possible they were hit by a bus, struck by lightning, were involved in gang violence or had cancer, a congenital condition or any other types of problems unrelated to their weight or eating.

Third, we are making as many assumptions about the lives they live or lived from one picture as most skinny folks or fat-hating folks make when they look at a fat person and assume that they know all about us.

For all of us fat folks this is a very sad commentary on our society if we react in the same way as do those who hate fat people. Ebony has it right, we can't allow ourselves to assume anything without more information. If we do so we fall into the same trap that we despise in others who make fun of and torment fat folks as having all sorts of awful habits and being responsible for being fat, etc.

*getting off the soapbox again*

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Well said.
*Appreciative applause.*
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Old 07-31-2006, 07:50 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Skellington
I agree with Mossy. The mother certainly does bare some responsibility for the health and welfare of her children as well as her own.
Thanks Jack..for understanding what I was saying...and what I was not.
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:02 PM   #60
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[QUOTE=Rainahblue][
It's a popular mentality, and a sad one, to automatically assume the worst about things.

and..Rainahblue..if you had considered ALL I have said on this thread, you would have seen that I feel for this woman..but that the bottom line is I have to come down on the side of kids..this did not happen overnight..easy to blame the pieces of scum who paraded this mom and her babies all over some tabloid(I hope the people who published this picture have a very hard time sleeping)..

*sigh*
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:35 AM   #61
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I did not realize that any of the daughters in the photo was 15. I hadunderstood that the youngest was 19. What if one of the daughters was 15? do you have evidence medical attention was not sought? Perhaps the mother staged and sold the picture, to pay for medical treatment. . . the point is, none of us really know, and whatever judgement you may pass, is speculation. In this community especially, I think it is advisable to withhold snap judgements.
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:56 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squurp
I did not realize that any of the daughters in the photo was 15. I hadunderstood that the youngest was 19. What if one of the daughters was 15? do you have evidence medical attention was not sought? Perhaps the mother staged and sold the picture, to pay for medical treatment. . . the point is, none of us really know, and whatever judgement you may pass, is speculation. In this community especially, I think it is advisable to withhold snap judgements.
I guess you are a more highly evolved human.I guess if you saw a different scenario that smacked of neglect, you would/will always be so calm and cool...hmmmmmmmmm..ok.I don't suppose you being into feeding and weight gain is clouding your view..at all?I think it is very ok for me to bring that up.Issues like this are never clean and simple..no doubt..and that goes for ALL of us commenting.
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Old 08-01-2006, 05:12 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossystate
I don't suppose you being into feeding and weight gain is clouding your view..at all?I think it is very ok for me to bring that up.
Mossystate, I don't think what you're doing is fair to some of the other participants of this discussion. It's fine that you disagree with some of the perspectives here, and I think you've argued your perspective very effectively, but discrediting the viewpoints of others because they may or may not be a feeder isn't appropriate. We should be conducting this dialogue based on what people say, not what we think their personal sexual preferences might be. I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I don't think anyone has tried to reinforce their opinion by making assumptions about or allusions to your personal life. From what I've read, those with opinions dissenting from yours have based their responses on your words only.

It isn't unfair to assume that most (i.e. all) of the men who contribute to this thread are aroused by weight gain or fat women. It is unfair to take advantage of that assumption and discredit a poster's opinion by saying that their attraction is clouding the poster's judgement. I've always been attracted to fat girls, but I can honestly say that I find nothing arousing about this photo or the suppositions surrounding it.

Maybe it's because the women in the photo aren't my type. Maybe it's because the thought that three of the four women are dead is so saddening. The bottom line is, I know that my predilection for big girls hasn't warped my views on this subject, and I think it's wrong for you to assume that it's warped the views of anyone else. To respond to someone's post by saying "well, you like fat girls so your opionion is tainted" isn't a productive contribution to this discussion.

I'd like to reiterate that your perspective has been very well articulated and represented on this thread. I think that you can disagree with other posters without making personal attacks.
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:45 PM   #64
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[QUOTE=Leonard LePage]

It isn't unfair to assume that most (i.e. all) of the men who contribute to this thread are aroused by weight gain or fat women.
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Leonard, if I had indeed done that, then you would have every right saying what you did.I never said anything about all the men on here.I never said anything about some..I said what I did about one man.He is aroused by weight gain and feeding, so that is why I said I was comfortable saying what I did.I certainly did not say anything about men who like fat women...ummm..I think that is a given on this site..so would be odd for me to protest*confoozled look*
So, I was simply taking the words one man has said about his liking gaining and being a feeder, and suggesting...just suggesting..that those facts might...might..have him look at situations like this with a very particular eye.
So, I guess I was not making a personal attack..not at all.
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Old 08-01-2006, 07:40 PM   #65
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My statement that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard LePage
It isn't unfair to assume that most (i.e. all) of the men who contribute to this thread are aroused by weight gain or fat women
was meant to be a general observation and not something I was accusing you of. I completely understand why you would have thought that though, since I was talking directly to you in that last post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mossystate
I never said anything about all the men on here.I never said anything about some..
I have to disagree with you there. Though you certainly didn't say anything about ALL the men, you did say this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mossystate
me thinks the preferences of some are getting in the way of things
...In post #44 on page 3. That comment bothered me a little bit, but I decided to ignore it. When you made the same suggestion with squurp though, I decided to speak up.

As you know, it is sometimes very difficult to interpret the tone with which people write things on the internet. When you asked squurp
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossystate
I don't suppose you being into feeding and weight gain is clouding your view..at all?
I interpreted your tone as sarcastic and condescending. It seemed to me that you were saying his view was distorted because of his preferences. It also seemed that, through this statement, you were implying that because you do not share his preferences, your view is not as distorted. Do you see how I might come to that conclusion?

Perhaps personal attack is too strong a word. But you were indeed getting personal, and it seems to me that you did this to discredit his perspective.
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Old 08-01-2006, 07:51 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossystate
I feel for this woman..but that the bottom line is I have to come down on the side of kids

What I wonder is why you see sides here so strongly. Do you think it's neglect to have fat children? Are all of us who were fat when young abused by our parents?

I'm glad you'd stick up for what you think is right and wrong, Monique. I just don't like the thought of someone who has a fat kid getting lumped in with child abusers or drunk drivers.
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:14 PM   #67
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I believe everybody's forgetting just HOW fat these children were, and that's the reason mossystate is speaking out so strongly in this case.
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:25 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagimawr
I believe everybody's forgetting just HOW fat these children were, and that's the reason mossystate is speaking out so strongly in this case.


I'm not forgetting anything. I just want to know at what degree my mom becomes accountable, so I can see about getting her carted off by Child Protective Services.

I'm interested in hearing Mossy's and other's opinions on this...if having supersized children is child abuse. I know Mossystate from chat, and she's more than able to speak for herself and hold her own. I don't mean to attack, so either way you don't need to defend. I disagree with her in this case. If the children were toddlers at the time of the photo, I may have felt differently.

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Old 08-01-2006, 08:26 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripley
What I wonder is why you see sides here so strongly. Do you think it's neglect to have fat children? Are all of us who were fat when young abused by our parents?

I'm glad you'd stick up for what you think is right and wrong, Monique. I just don't like the thought of someone who has a fat kid getting lumped in with child abusers or drunk drivers.
Ripley, like I said, I think most things in life are pretty complicated.I know my first(gut reaction) was very strong.I know I let the picture of all that greasy food(staged and surrounding children) get to me.I certainly do not think that having a fat kid automatically makes one a child abuser.I do however think there are degrees of abuse and neglect.Yes, I doubt many here had a lollipop and unicorn kind of childhood(in fact, never met anybody who had something so freakish..heh), but I don't want to see kids be this big this young...there, I said it.

What we do as adults is another story.I think that yes, people who procreate should try their damndest to help their children have fewer difficulties when they reach the age of adulthood.That is really all I was saying.The mom in this story is not some monster.She probably loved her kids a lot, and was doing the best she could, with the tools she herself had/was given.But I still can't shake the belief that we need to expect more from parents, not less.I have a 6 year old niece who is micro-managed by my sister.She is constantly being told to don't do this..don't do that.My sister loves her daughter to death, and my niece is smart and funny(she makes me snort-laugh).I have told my sister that my niece is gonna have some problems with being a bit 'on guard' and being self-conscious, and it could mess with her self-confidence as years goes by.My sister gets a little pissy with me, but I could never keep my mouth shut..no way!!..i love my Quinn!!

Anyway..i am rambling..my bottom line is I will always first see a child..no contest.Ripley,I most certainly understand what you were saying in your post to me..and I understand your asking me what you did.

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Old 08-01-2006, 08:37 PM   #70
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Ooops...
Ripley, I already posted my thingy up above and then saw the other part of your message.
If you saw a child very under-fed...or not fed the right thigs, so he or she was very thin..wouldn't you feel that was neglect?..I know I would...and at 15, a child is not a baby, yet not an adult, so they are still in great need of the best care and direction.*S*
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:32 PM   #71
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Ooops...
Ripley, I already posted my thingy up above and then saw the other part of your message.
If you saw a child very under-fed...or not fed the right thigs, so he or she was very thin..wouldn't you feel that was neglect?..I know I would...and at 15, a child is not a baby, yet not an adult, so they are still in great need of the best care and direction.*S*

I hear you. I guess what bothers me, is where you draw the line. Is having a fat child bad? Or is it just having a REALLY fat child? Who decides? Is it okay if they are fat from 10 to 14, but if they get really fat at 15 it's abuse? Is it abuse if the really fat child is encouraged to get WLS and dies on the table? Is that murder? Should supersized adolescents be removed from the home into weight-loss care? If it's abuse, should the parents be punished?
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:53 PM   #72
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"I believe everybody's forgetting just HOW fat these children were"

Okay, and I think most here are forgetting how these people actually weren't children if we use that word to refer to their age. The youngest was 15, then 19 and the oldest 24.

Well, I'm totally aware that weight gain can't (or can it, I don't know..?) be so rapid that for example Katrina, 19 yrs and 600+ lbs. could have been really that much smaller when she was under 18. I'm really not trying to say here that a parent's responsability miraculously ends when his/her offspring reach 18, no way. But I'm just raising the same issue M did few posts back (but the other way round, i think?). 15 isn't really a baby anymore. Not full-grown (no pun intended) and responsible as an adult yet, but also not totally dependant of his/her parent(s).

I think there would have been an really major difference in all our responses if these girls were, say, 7 to 12 years old.
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:57 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by ripley
I hear you. I guess what bothers me, is where you draw the line. Is having a fat child bad? Or is it just having a REALLY fat child? Who decides? Is it okay if they are fat from 10 to 14, but if they get really fat at 15 it's abuse? Is it abuse if the really fat child is encouraged to get WLS and dies on the table? Is that murder? Should supersized adolescents be removed from the home into weight-loss care? If it's abuse, should the parents be punished?
I believe everyone who's posted on this thread should be punished.

(All very well said, Ripley!)
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:04 PM   #74
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"I believe everybody's forgetting just HOW fat these children were"

Okay, and I think most here are forgetting how these people actually weren't children if we use that word to refer to their age.
Ah hoo. *removes foot from mouth* My bad.
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Old 08-02-2006, 01:38 AM   #75
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Okay, here's a link for all you estonian-speakers:

https://www.epl.ee/artikkel_19319.ht...e146045afebad7

It's an article from Eesti Paevaleht (Estonian tabloid) dated May 1997. Me being a Finn, I can get some sense - word here and there, general idea but not real translation. If there's any estonians here, it would be nice to get a translation?

For those of you who are interested, the estonian tabloid article in fact gives different weights for the women than the picture in the beginning of this thread. It says: "pereema kaalub 265, Katrina 282, Kenethia 207 ja Teriney 273 kilo."

Which means that the mother would have weighed 584lbs., Katrina 621lbs., Kenethia 456 and Teriney, the youngest, 602lbs.

On the picture it states that their weights would have been 570 (Myrtle, the mother), Katrina 604, Kenethia 445 and Teriney 506lbs.

Someone has either resorted to his/her imagination or done some poor conversion from lbs. to kg:s.

BTW: I remembered wrong: R. Simmons apparently wasn't involved with this family, but Rosalie Bradford was.

The girls had dreams about their future. Kenethia wanted to finish her studies and become a cosmetologist after she'd slim down. Katrina wanted to help other people with similiar weight propblems. Teriney wanted to become a school teacher and help children with problems. Their mother wished to be able to sing in a choir again.

Sad that these dreams weren't fulfilled - at least not in this world. Except for Kenethia maybe?
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