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Old 09-11-2013, 12:38 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
Yeesh. This blew up quickly.

I pretty much agree with fat9276.

But I have to wonder...am I the only female - or seemingly only person generally - who doesn't care about ANY kind of objectification when it's unsaid? So someone sees a woman he doesn't know and thinks something sexual. Maybe he even vents about it to someone.

Is that hurting anyone? Is consent required for a mere THOUGHT?

What compels people to take this so offensively? Finding people attractive - be it aesthetically or sexually - is natural. Being committed to a partner doesn't eliminate this ability. He didn't act on this whatsoever, and hadn't he said it here, no one would be any the worse for it.

And now for the more controversial bit - spoken objectification. So if someone's a creep and infringes on someone's comfort zone and tries to pull anything - I can see how that'd obviously be frowned upon/bad. But what if it's just a comment...meant in a complimentary fashion? What stops someone from taking this in the best possible light? I highly doubt that most men would complain about a random, physically-focused comment from a female. And likewise, if I get a passing comment like that...I take it favorably. It doesn't cost me anything to do this. And in the end, it's a net positive.
I agree with this post. I think sometimes people are too quick to jump on protecting us women. Heart might be in the right place, but its really unnecessary. As long as the OP kept his thoughts to himself, I see no harm done. I personally have observed on occasion an extremely attractive person and had "impure" thoughts but thats just a human thing to do in my opinion. When we start attacking people's thoughts we're going into the extreme danger zone imo.
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:14 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by LordQuas View Post
Its kind of sad how easy it is to tell which people have healthy levels of self-esteem and which ones dont. If any of you are trying to say you've never seen someone very attractive and in your mind put down the person they were with then you're either lying or have some issues you need to work out with a health care professional. If this is gonna be the attitude on the FAT SEXUALITY board then why even have a fat sexuality board?
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that if you do mentally put down the person's partner, YOU'RE the mentally healthy one?

Putting down someone else's partner based on looks or assumptions just screams entitlement issues to me.

By all means, find other people attractive. It's great! Treating them like they're there for your viewing pleasure and omg how dare they be involved with someone that's a) not you, and b) not up to what your standards for them are (especially when you don't KNOW THEM), is just ridiculous and inappropriate.

Wouldn't it be better to think "Wow, she is a stunning woman. Lucky man!" than "Wow, she's gorgeous. I should take stealth photos of her for my spank bank, and man, she sure is with a loser"?
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Old 09-15-2013, 07:37 AM   #53
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Hold it I'm confused by this discussion. I met my wife because we were set up, and went on a double date with the people who set us up. The first second I saw her as she was walking to the car I said to myself "wow what an ass, I wonder why that looks like naked" and "boy she has cute feet", she had little sandals on. Now it was a few months later when we fell in love and had sex that I actually realized both of those things. We are married now, and recently had a baby, but I guess based on this crowd I objectified my wife when I first met her. Funny thing is I tell her what I was thinking when I first met her from time to time and she loves that story. She finds it very sexy, she says now you see it all that time, and I say its just as good today.
The point is we seek out what we are attracted to. There is no way to fight it, we all do it, women do it too. Love and sexual attraction are intertwined in ways we can't even understand.
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Old 09-15-2013, 01:55 PM   #54
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Hold it I'm confused by this discussion. I met my wife because we were set up, and went on a double date with the people who set us up. The first second I saw her as she was walking to the car I said to myself "wow what an ass, I wonder why that looks like naked" and "boy she has cute feet", she had little sandals on. Now it was a few months later when we fell in love and had sex that I actually realized both of those things. We are married now, and recently had a baby, but I guess based on this crowd I objectified my wife when I first met her. Funny thing is I tell her what I was thinking when I first met her from time to time and she loves that story. She finds it very sexy, she says now you see it all that time, and I say its just as good today.
The point is we seek out what we are attracted to. There is no way to fight it, we all do it, women do it too. Love and sexual attraction are intertwined in ways we can't even understand.
No, it's okay to find other people attractive and want to know what they're like naked. It's okay to think about doing sexual things with them. Like I said before, it's treating them like they're there for your viewing pleasure ONLY that's the problem. Doing that reduces them from person to something to get you off.
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Old 09-15-2013, 02:54 PM   #55
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You have serious issues, PENGUIN (and others). Seek help.

If you wear make-up, high heels, or use anything to change your natural look...you are objectifying yourself. Period.

And guess what? It's good fun to objectify someone's body. It's why you and me and all are here. Your pops looked at your mom's big ol' booty, sprung a chubby and voila. Here you are, electing yourself as arbiters of morality and torturing the rest of us with your paper thin & baseless notions of what is or isn't the proper expression of sexuality.

Tend to your own flock and let the rest of us be as perverted and immature as we wish.
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Old 09-15-2013, 03:06 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Archetypus View Post
You have serious issues, PENGUIN (and others). Seek help.

If you wear make-up, high heels, or use anything to change your natural look...you are objectifying yourself. Period.

And guess what? It's good fun to objectify someone's body. It's why you and me and all are here. Your pops looked at your mom's big ol' booty, sprung a chubby and voila. Here you are, electing yourself as arbiters of morality and torturing the rest of us with your paper thin & baseless notions of what is or isn't the proper expression of sexuality.

Tend to your own flock and let the rest of us be as perverted and immature as we wish.
Well said!
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:02 AM   #57
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I can't tell if Archetypus is being serious or not.

Objectification is a-ok if it falls under one of two categories: Consensual, or completely-private-and-stays-in-your-own-head.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:08 AM   #58
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I can't tell if Archetypus is being serious or not.

Objectification is a-ok if it falls under one of two categories: Consensual, or completely-private-and-stays-in-your-own-head.
I agree with this completely.

You can tell the intellectual qualities of certain posters on here if they resort to saying other people have mental health problems just because they have a different opinion to them.
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Old 09-16-2013, 03:54 PM   #59
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:57 PM   #60
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Delete my post thank you

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Old 09-17-2013, 03:44 AM   #61
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You have serious issues, PENGUIN (and others). Seek help.

If you wear make-up, high heels, or use anything to change your natural look...you are objectifying yourself. Period.

And guess what? It's good fun to objectify someone's body. It's why you and me and all are here. Your pops looked at your mom's big ol' booty, sprung a chubby and voila. Here you are, electing yourself as arbiters of morality and torturing the rest of us with your paper thin & baseless notions of what is or isn't the proper expression of sexuality.

Tend to your own flock and let the rest of us be as perverted and immature as we wish.
First of all - personal attacks are not acceptable. It also weakens your argument and shows that you're clutching at straws.

Secondly, dressing up and looking nice is NOT objectifying yourself. Do you even know what the word means? Do you understand what it means to objectify someone else? It has nothing to do with being perverted or kinky, though those who are perverted and kinky can indeed objectify others.

Admiring someone else and finding them attractive is not objectifying them. Wanting to have sexual interactions with someone is not objectifying them. Getting dolled up and feeling sexy is not objectifying yourself.

When you reduce the person to nothing but something for your sexual enjoyment, you're objectifying them. You're removing their humanity, their dignity - turning them into an object, a thing. That is NOT the same as being attracted or making yourself attractive. It is also not the same as when it is done consensually, as pointed out by The Orange Mage.

If you find yourself removing someone else's humanity, and put themselves into thinghood in your head, then that's something you need to work on. I'll call out sexist behaviour if I see it.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:26 PM   #62
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Default Actually, I was going to get into this in a another thread on FA's, but:

^Right. And objectification can take any of a number of forms:

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"..he judged her physical appearance to be sexually/aesthetically pleasing without knowing her. Isn't that the definition of objectifying a person?... don't see how you can deny that is what he was doing."
It doesn't necessarily have to do with appearances, per-se. Or taking pleasure from people. Or even be of a sexual-nature.

For example, let's say you come across a stereotypical homeless person, an addict, who's missing limbs and has sores all over their body. And smells very bad. And you fairly conclude that they have nothing to offer you-personally (wouldn't have sex with them, wouldn't want to be friends with them, wouldn't want to conduct any kind of business with them, wouldn't want to have anything to do with them, etc...). That, by-itself, is not so objectifying just in terms of you making decisions about what it is you want or don't-want to do. And falls under the penumbra of your own personal autonomy.

However, more specific to your own blindness or unwillingness to actually see that person (that there's an actual human being underneath all of that) & beyond some sort of commodity type of exchange, that's more to the point of what some of us are talking about.

So, it's not really about seeing butts and boobs and wieners or enjoying them . But-rather the "un-seeing" of everything else. And so, in that sense, you can find a person quite unattractive, but still be said to be objectifying them-anyway, right? This is not just important in terms of how it might make someone else feel (shitty); but the way in which it seems to be driven through a sort of (unconsciously) morbid-fear, and how that concurrently divorces both it's object & subject from their own underlying humanity.

When we fall victim to this impulse, it's really ourselves we're cheating. Separating, comparmentalizing, walling ourselves off from the reality of the moment & life-itself. For those who've the courage to try it both-ways, it will readily become ever more apparent that the fullest, richest, and best-experience is to choose to be as open as our heart or mind will practically allow. Take in all of the highs & lows, color & texture and sounds. Feel the fear, examine-it even. But-still, be brave. And when you come-across something even more life-like in its beauty, turn it over and over, witness every contour & angle, take-in even its most minute flaws...

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Originally Posted by blubrluvr View Post
"Any attractive woman is always accompanied by a "loser". That's the male ego at work. Simple jealousy."
Not always. Although, I will concede that reorienting oneself with respect to the ego can be very empowering.

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"I'm familiar with Patrick Jane, and while I enjoy The Mentalist, it's not really relevant to this conversation."
Watching it last night, the episode with the delinquents in that outward-bound type of program. Heh, it's so-corny, so very deeply-so. I, sometimes, just-can't work my way through-it. Gets to be too much. It's as if a bunch of executives were sitting-around and asking "Uh, we need a-show...a-show that, maybe, older-folks can watch...while drinking tea and eating ice-cream & pound cake!"

Was going to PM-you, because I think it's best you now-know. But, everything else got in the way. Ok, no-more secrets: Simon Baker as Patrick Jane is...actually....an Undercover-Brother....from Down-Under! Do-you-know what-I-mean? What-I'm-trying-to-say? Maybe you do.

This whole-time, the entire-time he's been so casually talking about ranch-dressing and "peanut butter" & jelly sandwiches and peanut-butter cups. And fish-tacos and pop-tarts and corn-chips, etc.. Meanwhile, all-the-while, he's really thinking: "Oi-mate!...need me billy-can and Vegamite for brekkie! "
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:31 PM   #63
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:17 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
^Right. And objectification can take any of a number of forms:

It doesn't necessarily have to do with appearances, per-se. Or taking pleasure from people. Or even be of a sexual-nature.

For example, let's say you come across a stereotypical homeless person, an addict, who's missing limbs and has sores all over their body. And smells very bad. And you fairly conclude that they have nothing to offer you-personally (wouldn't have sex with them, wouldn't want to be friends with them, wouldn't want to conduct any kind of business with them, wouldn't want to have anything to do with them, etc...). That, by-itself, is not so objectifying just in terms of you making decisions about what it is you want or don't-want to do. And falls under the penumbra of your own personal autonomy.

However, more specific to your own blindness or unwillingness to actually see that person (that there's an actual human being underneath all of that) & beyond some sort of commodity type of exchange, that's more to the point of what some of us are talking about.

So, it's not really about seeing butts and boobs and wieners or enjoying them . But-rather the "un-seeing" of everything else. And so, in that sense, you can find a person quite unattractive, but still be said to be objectifying them-anyway, right? This is not just important in terms of how it might make someone else feel (shitty); but the way in which it seems to be driven through a sort of (unconsciously) morbid-fear, and how that concurrently divorces both it's object & subject from their own underlying humanity.

When we fall victim to this impulse, it's really ourselves we're cheating. Separating, comparmentalizing, walling ourselves off from the reality of the moment & life-itself. For those who've the courage to try it both-ways, it will readily become ever more apparent that the fullest, richest, and best-experience is to choose to be as open as our heart or mind will practically allow. Take in all of the highs & lows, color & texture and sounds. Feel the fear, examine-it even. But-still, be brave. And when you come-across something even more life-like in its beauty, turn it over and over, witness every contour & angle, take-in even its most minute flaws...
Wow, this is a really great post, thank you for taking the time to see all this! I guess that people mean something different by objectification than what I thought. Actually, come to think of it some of the disagreements on here might be stemmed by differences in opinion on what it means to objectify someone. I totally agree with your concept of beauty and keeping an open mind to let you see it as well, it was beautifully put!
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:05 PM   #65
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So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that if you do mentally put down the person's partner, YOU'RE the mentally healthy one?

Putting down someone else's partner based on looks or assumptions just screams entitlement issues to me.

By all means, find other people attractive. It's great! Treating them like they're there for your viewing pleasure and omg how dare they be involved with someone that's a) not you, and b) not up to what your standards for them are (especially when you don't KNOW THEM), is just ridiculous and inappropriate.

Wouldn't it be better to think "Wow, she is a stunning woman. Lucky man!" than "Wow, she's gorgeous. I should take stealth photos of her for my spank bank, and man, she sure is with a loser"?

You cant control your thoughts, only your reactions to them. Human beings are naturally jealous and envious and even the most kind hearted person has moments where they think something that they would never act on. He had a thought to take pictures but ultimately didnt because thankfully most of us have impulse control. At the end of the day he didnt "treat" her like anything because he never said anything to her or approached her so I dont see how he did anything inappropriate.

My point is that the guy had a fairly normal reaction to seeing an attractive woman and is getting killed for it on the one board he should be able to post without getting killed for having sexually related thoughts. If you think its creepy for a guy to see an attractive woman and make a mental note to remember what she looks like so he can beat off about her later well I have some bad news for you: most guys are creepy.

I also find it interesting that you'd liken putting down the mate of someone attractive to feeling entitled because it's usually insecurity that causes one to feel that way.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:08 PM   #66
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I agree with this completely.

You can tell the intellectual qualities of certain posters on here if they resort to saying other people have mental health problems just because they have a different opinion to them.
Acting like normal behavior is abnormal is usually a telling sign of mental illness.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:52 PM   #67
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You cant control your thoughts, only your reactions to them.
You can control them. Maybe you can't control your initial internal reaction or response, but you CAN pull yourself up short and go "Hey, that's not cool/helpful/respectful." If people can do it to help generate positive feelings towards themselves, then it can certainly be used to stop racist, sexist, ableist and other types of inappropriate thought patterns.

Quote:
Human beings are naturally jealous and envious and even the most kind hearted person has moments where they think something that they would never act on.
Yes, we all have moments of envy or jealousy. We all have moments where we think of doing something we find morally reprehensible. Most of us never go through with those thoughts or dwell on them, and I hope that most of us realise it's wrong to think them.

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He had a thought to take pictures but ultimately didnt because thankfully most of us have impulse control. At the end of the day he didnt "treat" her like anything because he never said anything to her or approached her so I dont see how he did anything inappropriate.
He didn't treat her with respect, and he didn't treat her partner with respect. He may not have interacted with them at all, but he did treat her like she was there for his pleasure and that he had the right to have a say in who she was involved with. I highly doubt this type of thinking was a once-off occurrence, which means there's a strong chance it factors into how he, or others who see no harm in it, might deal with women in ways that are far less than respectful. I'm willing to bet that it's not an isolated incident and that it's a continuing trend.

Quote:
My point is that the guy had a fairly normal reaction to seeing an attractive woman and is getting killed for it on the one board he should be able to post without getting killed for having sexually related thoughts.
You must've missed the posts where I said there's a difference between finding someone attractive and wanting to do things with them, and objectifying them. There IS a difference. You need to learn it.

This board isn't about enabling creepy behaviour. If you want that sort of support, there are plenty of MRA and PUA sites out there, I'm sure. They'll surely tell you that you're absolutely right, though that alone should tell you how far into creepville this goes.

Quote:
If you think its creepy for a guy to see an attractive woman and make a mental note to remember what she looks like so he can beat off about her later well I have some bad news for you: most guys are creepy.
First point: It's okay to see someone, be attracted to them, and masturbate to the thought of them. It's not okay to want to take creeper shots of them while disparaging her partner because he isn't you or someone you feel is "worthy."

Second point: Just because it happens does NOT mean it's okay and we should just put up with it. Sexual harassment in the work place was something women were told to put up with, because it was something they should expect. Being creepy is NOT something we should just "put up with" because "it happens." It is NOT acceptable behaviour. I will call you out on it, I will call anyone out on it, because some people are too scared to even though they're directly affected. I will not just "put up with" idiots in online games talking shit and making sexist or homophobic remarks and I will not put up with it here.

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I also find it interesting that you'd liken putting down the mate of someone attractive to feeling entitled because it's usually insecurity that causes one to feel that way.
Insecurity is NOT an excuse for creepy or disrespectful behaviour. It IS a sense of entitlement from those who view women as being there for THEIR benefit, not because women have a right to exist like any man does.
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