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Old 08-03-2013, 08:12 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
Guys like looking at images of naked women. Now there's news.

You do realize that even those of us with a sexy fat woman in our lives can enjoy looking -- sometimes with our significant other.
I don't think "significant other" means what you think it means. It means a person who chooses to spend their life with you. Not a pillow that you have drawn a smiley face on
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Old 08-04-2013, 05:28 PM   #27
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I don't think "significant other" means what you think it means. It means a person who chooses to spend their life with you. Not a pillow that you have drawn a smiley face on
In case you didn't know I am married (even have five kids).
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:04 PM   #28
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I live with and love a girl that I've been dating for two years. She's moderately proportioned, with a nice body and fairly big boobs - the dream of most guys lives. As an FA, I would love to see her gain, and this is often the source of my fantasies. I'd love to see her gain, and encourage it, but the thought of either coming forward with my feelings or simply encouraging it makes me feel like a creep. We've discussed getting married, having kids and starting a life together - I am totally cool with this and would be honoured to live my life with this woman. Here's my question:

I'm an FA, and have been my whole life. Do I reveal this to my girlfriend, since we hold no secrets, or not? Is this the kind of sacrifice one makes for their partner, and should there be no secrets in a lifelong relationship?

I am very interested to hear what you all think, so please let me know. I'm assuming there are a few of you out there that have been through this, so please help me out if you can.

Little late to the discussion here but I assume you may still be mulling over this situation and would appreciate further input. And others are certainly lurking out there for which this topic will be of relevance.

The line that sticks out for me is:

"I'm an FA, and have been my whole life."

According to your profile page, you are 29 years old. And since you have been an FA all this time, is this something that your friends and family are at all aware of? Have you actually had a relationship with any fat women (I mean a real relationship, not just booty call).

Don't get me wrong, I am not here to bash any 'closet FAs'. BUT if that term describes you Fingermonkies or anyone else reading this, then you need to work on yourself before you can be a proper partner to any woman.

And I really don't buy this about how you would like your woman to gain weight "but it is not a deal breaker" if she does not. Either your desire to be with a fat woman is strong enough that you are indeed an FA, or this is just something that intrigues you regarding being with a fat woman and you should have had the opportunity to 'get it out of your system' by now.

Now you may indeed love the woman that you are with, but if she does not satisfy the essence of your sexuality, then your relationship is a house of cards. As Ruby so aptly put it, you are at risk of having a fat woman sized hole in your life that never subsides (and no, having a fatty mistress on the side will not fill this void but only add more guilt and shame).

As Bigmac said, there's plenty of hot fat women out there, go find you one that will be a good wife and be a good husband to her. It isn't that complicated. The key is to have the balls to go for what you want and tell anyone that doesn't like it to suck rocks
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Old 11-16-2013, 12:55 PM   #29
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I just love how everyone says that it won't be able to work because she wasn't a feedee to begine with. I was 120 pounds, fitness nut, and long story short, I got with my boyfriend who's a feeder, and now I'm over 200 pounds and wanting to gain more. Have some faith. You never know how she will take it or what she will decide to do. Tell her, and hope for the best. You never know what could happen. good luck!
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:19 PM   #30
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Definitely don't give up on her if you love her just because YOU haven't been honest about your desires. While I disagree with others here that sexuality is a deal breaking thing in a relationship ( love and lust are two different things) I will also say I was in her shoes not long ago. I have been in a long term relationship with my FA fiancÚ, who told me about his desires about 4 or 5 years ago now. At first I was startled, and confused because I had been raised in a very fat hating family. Having always been a chubby girl I hated my fat because of how my family spoke of it and the things they said or did on a daily basis (they seemed under the impression that if they made me hate my body and feel 0 self confidence I would miraculously transform into a skinny person)
I loved him a lot and I was willing to learn more about it and try it out for him.. Now here I am pushing 300lbs and working on gaining more

If you introduce her to dims it will probably help a lot. I never saw this site for a long time and I would struggle with societies feelings vs his feelings a lot. After I found dims I realized how common this actually is and that I am not alone I also have come to realize I was fit for this lifestyle all along. I adore food more than basically anything lol. I get depressed if I have to deprive myself. I am overjoyed to stuff myself with delicious foods. I guess I was a... Closet feedee? xD and I would never have even known that was a thigh had he not introduced me to this "world"

So yes, talk to her If she can't handle the knowledge of your desires then the relationship may not be a good idea to continue anyways. There are plenty of people with (I hate using the term but) "fetishes" that they have but do not act on in long term relationships.
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:00 AM   #31
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I just love how everyone says that it won't be able to work because she wasn't a feedee to begine with. I was 120 pounds, fitness nut, and long story short, I got with my boyfriend who's a feeder, and now I'm over 200 pounds and wanting to gain more. Have some faith. You never know how she will take it or what she will decide to do.
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After I found dims I realized how common this actually is and that I am not alone I also have come to realize I was fit for this lifestyle all along. I adore food more than basically anything lol. I get depressed if I have to deprive myself. I am overjoyed to stuff myself with delicious foods. I guess I was a... Closet feedee? xD and I would never have even known that was a thigh had he not introduced me to this "world"

So yes, talk to her If she can't handle the knowledge of your desires then the relationship may not be a good idea to continue anyways. There are plenty of people with (I hate using the term but) "fetishes" that they have but do not act on in long term relationships.
I agree with SO MUCH of these two replies more than most of the other comments thus far.

While I concede that it's easier/better in a lot of ways to find someone already fat and date them, rather than getting your currently-non-feedee partner to gain, the fact of the matter is that people don't realize the intricacies of their own sexuality without relationships that allow them to explore and experiment. All our defining sexual traits are "in the closet" at some point as we are young and then express themselves at the right time. You'll never know if she is secretly ashamed of her repressed desire to stuff herself and gain weight unless you open the dialogue about it and give her a chance. My girlfriend never realized that all the times she would sneak into the kitchen to secretly snack, or her tendency to always eat until she was beyond-full, were just a shadow of things to come. It was when she met me and was introduced to a love of fat/gaining that she realized that she got an immense amount of happiness and satisfaction from it and now has realized that is a part of her own sexuality and not just mine.

As her boyfriend, I feel I'm blessed with two things now... First, I'm with someone who I already enjoy on so many levels of compatibility and commonality, and I will get more of this beautiful woman to enjoy and shower with adoration and love. Secondly and unexpectedly, we both realized that I didn't have insecurity about what would happen if she lost the weight in the future. I'd been attracted to her at 120 lbs, and 200 lbs, and I'll be attracted to her at those weights again if it happens. While I know it differs for others, my perspective is that I like ice cream and of course I want more, but I doubt I'd refuse to eat any if the next bowl had a little less.
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Old 11-19-2013, 07:17 AM   #32
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Hi all,

I wouldn't dare to give anybody advice on how to manage their relationships but this thread made me want to share my experience.

I am an FA with a female gaining fetish, married with 2 kids to an average built woman. I've been with her for the last 15 years and I'm happy. Our sex life is satisfying and I am attracted to her at most size. I am not sure how others function: maybe for some the fatness is necessary to be aroused - for me it isn't despite the fact that my identity as an FA is strong and indisputable.

I laid all the cards on the table many times but my wife woudn't want to gain weight. I am perfectly OK with this - I have absolutely no right to demand something like that from another being.

I am definitely one of those married man with blank profiles who browse these forums often that were mentioned in one of the posts above. It is true that I am missing a fat woman im my sex life but I wouldn't go as far as to calling it "a hole in my life". True, it is a desire that is not getting met but not the only one. I can live with that. True, I try to ease the tension that it creates by looking at the beautiful women pictures here. I can live with that too. Don't other married men watch naked ladies online?

This need does actually get quite painful and advances closer to the foreground when our sex life dwindles perodically - like now when my wife is breastfeeding which reduces her libido.

My personal insight about sexual desires is that they can't really get quenched. This is why I find the "fat woman shaped hole" simile very accurate. I am not sure though if this hole can be filled by a fat woman - perhaps the case with the fetish is that the hole can never be filled. The desires are always there and we have to learn to manage them without denying them. Hence I never considered leaving my wife because I love her and our relationship works on so many levels.

This is my piece of mind...
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:45 AM   #33
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My personal insight about sexual desires is that they can't really get quenched. This is why I find the "fat woman shaped hole" simile very accurate. I am not sure though if this hole can be filled by a fat woman - perhaps the case with the fetish is that the hole can never be filled. The desires are always there and we have to learn to manage them without denying them. Hence I never considered leaving my wife because I love her and our relationship works on so many levels.
This is the unspoken point of clarity, clearly and wonderfully stated: we don't have to have this discussion with the assumption that us not getting 105% of what we want, leaves us miserable and unfulfilled. Very well said, sir, because it is true.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:31 PM   #34
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This is the unspoken point of clarity, clearly and wonderfully stated: we don't have to have this discussion with the assumption that us not getting 105% of what we want, leaves us miserable and unfulfilled. Very well said, sir, because it is true.
It's really a personal thing really...

Some people out there can manage with their weight gain fetish in the fantasy side and some people can't.

Some can live perfectly fulfilling relationships without feederism while many others feel empty without their feederism kink fulfilled.

It's a person by person thing.
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Old 11-22-2013, 06:38 AM   #35
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This is the unspoken point of clarity, clearly and wonderfully stated: we don't have to have this discussion with the assumption that us not getting 105% of what we want, leaves us miserable and unfulfilled. Very well said, sir, because it is true.
Yes, as the Rolling Stones said so long ago "you can't always get what you want ... but ... you get what you need."
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:49 PM   #36
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This post is old. I wonder if he ever told her?

I'm also of the mind that there are a *lot* of people (men and women) out there who would be happy to indulge in life if they knew their partner would be into it. When you grow up in a world that's constantly telling you fat is bad, effectively brainwashing you, it can be difficult to open your eyes to other possibilities. The love and support from a partner might be all that's needed to awaken a whole new sense of freedom, confidence, and self love. I think a lot of it has to do with self acceptance, which in a lot of ways is just as taboo as fat.
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Old 09-12-2014, 05:05 PM   #37
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I'm now with a girl that weights 231 lbs.

She's great. I'm at 224 lbs, so we're a fat couple.
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:42 AM   #38
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This is/was an interesting thread. I guess most people have to negotiate a gap between their purely sexual "ideal" and reality. For example, most non-FA guys seem to fantasize about porn stars/supermodels/actresses and yet end up with women that are some distance from that "ideal." And most women end up with someone other than Daniel Craig or whoever.

An FA (or feeder) being with an average-sized woman could be seen as similar in principle. The difference is that where women who look like porn stars are a rarity, BBWs abound. But lonely FAs still often find themselves falling into relationships with partners who are obviously not their ideal type.

Another thing to consider, and I hope I'm not offending anyone here, but most FAs probably do not consider all BBWs equally sexually attractive. So even if you do end up with a BBW, it may not be your "ideal" BBW. That's life.

I did date a three or four non-BBWs before hooking up with my wife. Most of those relationship failed to last very long, but the reason was generally not a lack of erotic chemistry. One thing is almost certain, though - none of these women would have responded well to my proposing that they gain weight. And I'd think a "feeder" who wants to fatten up a thin girl is going to have a harder time finding their ideal than one who just finds a BBW who loves to eat.

(Finally: I'm not sure I agree with the use of "feeder" to describe an FA who loves weight gain. Speaking for myself, I sure do love weight gain, but I draw absolutely zero sexual charge from being the cause of it. My wife is 270 lbs and has gained about 100 lbs over 19 years and it's all from her own steady over-eating. I love THAT, as I love each additional pound).
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:06 PM   #39
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This is/was an interesting thread. I guess most people have to negotiate a gap between their purely sexual "ideal" and reality. For example, most non-FA guys seem to fantasize about porn stars/supermodels/actresses and yet end up with women that are some distance from that "ideal." And most women end up with someone other than Daniel Craig or whoever.

An FA (or feeder) being with an average-sized woman could be seen as similar in principle. The difference is that where women who look like porn stars are a rarity, BBWs abound. But lonely FAs still often find themselves falling into relationships with partners who are obviously not their ideal type.

Another thing to consider, and I hope I'm not offending anyone here, but most FAs probably do not consider all BBWs equally sexually attractive. So even if you do end up with a BBW, it may not be your "ideal" BBW. That's life.

I did date a three or four non-BBWs before hooking up with my wife. Most of those relationship failed to last very long, but the reason was generally not a lack of erotic chemistry. One thing is almost certain, though - none of these women would have responded well to my proposing that they gain weight. And I'd think a "feeder" who wants to fatten up a thin girl is going to have a harder time finding their ideal than one who just finds a BBW who loves to eat.

(Finally: I'm not sure I agree with the use of "feeder" to describe an FA who loves weight gain. Speaking for myself, I sure do love weight gain, but I draw absolutely zero sexual charge from being the cause of it. My wife is 270 lbs and has gained about 100 lbs over 19 years and it's all from her own steady over-eating. I love THAT, as I love each additional pound).
pretty concise answer here. i will say, however, that being transparent about one's preferences, sexual and otherwise, tends to lead to a happier relationship. bringing to one's significant other's attention the FA (or WG, as the case may be) factor adds a level of comfort which is integral in a strong relationship, regardless of whether or not the concerned party is willing to participate physically. one thing i've found is that, even in cases where i'm involved with someone thinner/athletic, mere appreciation of my preference is enough to get the engine going. hearing whomever i'm involved with speak about her own weight gain or overeating is often enough, powered by our mutual feelings for one another. while, yeah, it would be great for her to gain an incredible amount of weight, the fact that she is willing to cater to my own sexual preferences, in however minute a capacity, is more than enough to keep the physical/sensual fire burning.

then again, i have been in a situation where a girlfriend has gained a decent amount of weight while with me (however unintentional). and that was marvelous, but then again, she reached a point where she was no longer comfortable, and that's where reality kind of hits and it then falls on me to curb my own desires and work to support her wishes. it's a give and take in any relationship, and i feel that the most important element is complete and thorough communication.

this was terribly long-winded, and i apologize, but i hope it was at least helpful!
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Old 09-26-2014, 11:31 PM   #40
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In case you didn't know I am married (even have five kids).
way to shut that one down. totally uncalled for BS insult
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:26 PM   #41
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I am an FFA.

Although I have never dated a BHM or a guy that actively began to gain large amounts, I have dated guys who picked up ten to fifteen pounds while we were together. I felt so guilty because they hated the weight, and I failed to honestly tell them that I liked their pudge. I would comment that I didn't think that they needed to lose weight or to go to the gym, but, they would generally respond with a dismissive, 'You're sweet,' or, they would frown and get back to the gym.

My problem is that I can't 'get off' unless I'm with a skinny guy that gains weight. My fetish is so strong that I literally am not sexually stimulated unless a guy gains weight. I'm very 'turned on' by the idea of a skinny guy growing into the 200-350 pound weight range. However, for some reason, I find myself not attracted to men who are already at that size when we meet.

I don't know what to do. I feel like a shallow asshole, but, I can't change my sexual preference. What can I do in this situation?

*Currently, I am not seeing anyone. However, I am using OkCupid, so, I would like to date a guy + enter into a relationship in the near future (if the opportunity presents itself). However, I don't know how to tell the guy that I'm with that I'm not sexually aroused unless he grows a belly.
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Old 09-29-2014, 10:37 PM   #42
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I am an FFA.

Although I have never dated a BHM or a guy that actively began to gain large amounts, I have dated guys who picked up ten to fifteen pounds while we were together. I felt so guilty because they hated the weight, and I failed to honestly tell them that I liked their pudge. I would comment that I didn't think that they needed to lose weight or to go to the gym, but, they would generally respond with a dismissive, 'You're sweet,' or, they would frown and get back to the gym.

My problem is that I can't 'get off' unless I'm with a skinny guy that gains weight. My fetish is so strong that I literally am not sexually stimulated unless a guy gains weight. I'm very 'turned on' by the idea of a skinny guy growing into the 200-350 pound weight range. However, for some reason, I find myself not attracted to men who are already at that size when we meet.

I don't know what to do. I feel like a shallow asshole, but, I can't change my sexual preference. What can I do in this situation?

*Currently, I am not seeing anyone. However, I am using OkCupid, so, I would like to date a guy + enter into a relationship in the near future (if the opportunity presents itself). However, I don't know how to tell the guy that I'm with that I'm not sexually aroused unless he grows a belly.
As intimidating as it can seem, just be honest about it. But maybe put a little strategy into play to hedge your bets, if that's feasible. It took me a long time to get to the point where I could just come out and voice what I liked...and it still makes me a little uncomfortable (and I specifically go for men who are already big...so I can't imagine how much more severe it might feel for you.) But look at the alternatives. Get with a guy and hint about it...when it's very unlikely he'll get it, in which case you're ultimately unsatisfied with the relationship and it hurts the entire thing. Get with a guy and just...try to look past your desires and make it work anyway? Neither is really appealing.

For potential ways to make the situation as advantageous to yourself as possible, to minimize the chance of rejection and whatnot: obviously avoid guys who are pointedly into working out or fitness, try to find a guy that's very into food (so that the chance to let go and indulge would be viewed as a treat?) and, if you're looking to take the relationship seriously, be very upfront about what you're looking for. Because your interests are SO specific, you might have some luck around FantasyFeeder; you might find it beneficial to just talk with someone who shares the other side of your interest (a thin guy who wants to gain) so you can feel confident that people do find that appealing. But considering you're trying out OkCupid...I would recommend that you briefly discuss it under "the most private thing you're willing to admit." That way, if people actually bother to read your profile, they have an idea of it already without you having to muster up the courage to tell them. Makes it a little more impersonal, easier to have a semblance of confidence about it.

And of course, don't forget that in the end - not to be too much of a generalizing asshole here - it's men and sex. If you blatantly show a guy that he'll be getting a lot more attention if he caters to your fetish, it'll be more appealing. Your showing hesitation gives too much room for someone to think you're just being nice (like you mentioned earlier, of the "You're sweet" variety). A lot of people are very interested in pleasing their partner if they actually care and knowing you're genuinely VERY INTO it may help your cause.

But no matter what you choose to do, I wish you good luck. It's not easy, but you deserve to find someone to enjoy that with
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Old 09-30-2014, 01:52 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Amaranthine View Post
As intimidating as it can seem, just be honest about it. But maybe put a little strategy into play to hedge your bets, if that's feasible. It took me a long time to get to the point where I could just come out and voice what I liked...and it still makes me a little uncomfortable (and I specifically go for men who are already big...so I can't imagine how much more severe it might feel for you.) But look at the alternatives. Get with a guy and hint about it...when it's very unlikely he'll get it, in which case you're ultimately unsatisfied with the relationship and it hurts the entire thing. Get with a guy and just...try to look past your desires and make it work anyway? Neither is really appealing.

For potential ways to make the situation as advantageous to yourself as possible, to minimize the chance of rejection and whatnot: obviously avoid guys who are pointedly into working out or fitness, try to find a guy that's very into food (so that the chance to let go and indulge would be viewed as a treat?) and, if you're looking to take the relationship seriously, be very upfront about what you're looking for. Because your interests are SO specific, you might have some luck around FantasyFeeder; you might find it beneficial to just talk with someone who shares the other side of your interest (a thin guy who wants to gain) so you can feel confident that people do find that appealing. But considering you're trying out OkCupid...I would recommend that you briefly discuss it under "the most private thing you're willing to admit." That way, if people actually bother to read your profile, they have an idea of it already without you having to muster up the courage to tell them. Makes it a little more impersonal, easier to have a semblance of confidence about it.

And of course, don't forget that in the end - not to be too much of a generalizing asshole here - it's men and sex. If you blatantly show a guy that he'll be getting a lot more attention if he caters to your fetish, it'll be more appealing. Your showing hesitation gives too much room for someone to think you're just being nice (like you mentioned earlier, of the "You're sweet" variety). A lot of people are very interested in pleasing their partner if they actually care and knowing you're genuinely VERY INTO it may help your cause.

But no matter what you choose to do, I wish you good luck. It's not easy, but you deserve to find someone to enjoy that with
Thank you so much for posting this message. I feel very encouraged, and I now have a better idea of ways to handle my situation. I have followed your advice by adding my WG preferences to my OkCupid profile. I will also check out Fantasy Feeder.

Last edited by ALS; 09-30-2014 at 01:52 AM. Reason: Spelling error
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Old 09-30-2014, 03:12 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ALS View Post
I am an FFA.

Although I have never dated a BHM or a guy that actively began to gain large amounts, I have dated guys who picked up ten to fifteen pounds while we were together. I felt so guilty because they hated the weight, and I failed to honestly tell them that I liked their pudge. I would comment that I didn't think that they needed to lose weight or to go to the gym, but, they would generally respond with a dismissive, 'You're sweet,' or, they would frown and get back to the gym.

My problem is that I can't 'get off' unless I'm with a skinny guy that gains weight. My fetish is so strong that I literally am not sexually stimulated unless a guy gains weight. I'm very 'turned on' by the idea of a skinny guy growing into the 200-350 pound weight range. However, for some reason, I find myself not attracted to men who are already at that size when we meet.

I don't know what to do. I feel like a shallow asshole, but, I can't change my sexual preference. What can I do in this situation?

*Currently, I am not seeing anyone. However, I am using OkCupid, so, I would like to date a guy + enter into a relationship in the near future (if the opportunity presents itself). However, I don't know how to tell the guy that I'm with that I'm not sexually aroused unless he grows a belly.
Hi ALS,

Don't feel bad about your sexuality. It is what it is and the only thing you can do is try and find someone to share it with. I totally understand where you're coming from though as easier said than done. I've recently gotten back into the dating world myself and I know what you mean about trying to explain this to people outside of the FA/FFA community. I've decided that I'm not really interested in seeing a guy who isn't an FA too. I'd so much rather date someone who gets it as it's critical to my sexuality and for me to enjoy sex. I think I'm finally at the point of self acceptance where there's no point in being interested in guys who even if they decide they would date a fat girl, won't be able to satisfy me sexually as an FA. Which sadly, also means a severely limited dating pool. It also restricts your dating to community specific sites like FF, which I'm happy to say has gotten significantly less creepy than it used to (prepare yourself for creepers, but maybe now 10% of the time a seemingly normal guy will pop up). I also like the idea of putting it out there on okcupid. I have a little tag "FAs preferred" on mine and so far a few guys have asked about it but no one's taken the bait. Let me know if you have any luck with putting under the personal section.

Kudos to all you older folks who did this before the internet. I really don't know how you all found each other.

Ps. Sorry for hijacking this thread
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Old 09-30-2014, 03:25 PM   #45
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Kudos to all you older folks who did this before the internet. I really don't know how you all found each other.
I think the expectations that you would get to express your particular kink in your sexuality were a lot lower (as was acceptance/approval of said kinks). Not that some people didn't find someone with a complimentary kink, just that....it was not generally acknowledged to be so important, I think. Hierarchy of sexual needs?
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:54 PM   #46
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Thought I could post an overdue update on this. After spending some great years with this girl, the relationship ended for a number of reasons. First off and most importantly, we weren't getting along as well as we used to. Don't need to get into it, but I'm a firm believer that the person you end up with should be that person you can go to no matter what kind of day you've had and just feel good about yourself, and that wasn't always the case with us.

But I do have to say that this forum and thread really helped me with my dilemma, and it was one that I struggled with daily. On the one hand, yes I do believe that you can love someone enough for who they are and even if things aren't perfect for you physically, that mental connection can be enough to sustain a relationship. However! You've got to be a pretty incredible person to not circle back to that basic physical human instinct and not feel that something is missing. For me, I can't honestly say that I was 100% happy in this relationship because of that missing physical connection. So although we had some great years together and I regret none of it, I will definitely move forward knowing more about myself and knowing that the physical aspect is something that I really do need in a relationship. I've got a thing for the big girls, and I like that! Suppose part of this process also involved me maturing enough to really embrace that.

Thanks everyone for their comments and help in this, one of the reasons why I love this forum Hope to meet some of you at a bash in the future.
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:08 AM   #47
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Fingermonkies....it sounds that you had a good relationship. If it ended for this reasons or others, at least take with you that for the most part, it was good.
At the very least, so good came out of it. You now have a better understanding of yourself, and your sexual preference. You now know what you can and will ask for and what you may want to let fall by the wayside.

I wish you much luck in finding your true partner.

(In the meantime, enjoy all of the pics on the board. )
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Old 09-04-2015, 06:24 AM   #48
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Fingermonkies, sorry that things didn't work out in the end, but glad for you both that there was some good times in there. Good luck on whatever comes next, and hey, maybe you'll hang around here some more -- talking through this stuff never hurts one's understanding of what is going on in their head
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