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Old 12-19-2013, 08:45 AM   #1
Ned Sonntag
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Unhappy '600 Lb Life' to Feature Our Original 'Rock Star'

http://web.poptower.com/zsalynn-whit...00-lb-life.htm A heads-up for the group... discuss amongst yourselves... interesting that Zsa names NAAFA in the promo paragraphs and not DIMz...
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:15 AM   #2
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I wondered when her second WLS procedure would be officially revealed. (She had it months ago.)

The way the copy in the link was written, it makes NAAFA sound like they are pimping out fat women. It will be interesting to see how NAAFA is actually portrayed in the show when it's not subjected to the poor writing skills of the author.

Actually it's much better that Dims is left out in the upcoming media circus that may ensue from this show and the documentary 'All of Me' that was made with Zsa and 'Bridget'. We've entered an era of pitchforks and torches with respect to public opinion of fat people and from what I've seen there isn't enough 'fight' in the fat community as a whole.
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:13 PM   #3
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Are we really that surprised anymore? They milk the paysites for all they're worth then go on national television to either get a reality tv deal or to lose weight. I've grown immune to things like this.

Oh and I love how Christina's husband (if you clicked on the season 2 cast list) looks like every stereotypical a-hole FA I've ever known online or in person. You can almost see the disdain on his face in the picture that she wants to lose weight.
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:27 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by KHayes666 View Post
Are we really that surprised anymore? They milk the paysites for all they're worth then go on national television to either get a reality tv deal or to lose weight. I've grown immune to things like this.

Oh and I love how Christina's husband (if you clicked on the season 2 cast list) looks like every stereotypical a-hole FA I've ever known online or in person. You can almost see the disdain on his face in the picture that she wants to lose weight.
I almost choked laughing when I saw that picture!
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:46 PM   #5
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Zsalynn's bio is not unique. Far too many women abandon healthy lifestyles in their twenties and thirties only to end up painfully limited in their forties.

I wish Zsalynn and her family all the best and hope her surgery improves her quality of life.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:27 PM   #6
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i don't think the media is necessarily after fat people. just silly illogical people, and boy have they been given them plenty.

also this is one time i have to say i agree with Bigmac. the denial is crazy. it's weird thinking that some people think the core of being fat means not even trying to take care of yourself at all even in the smallest of ways that matter. the pretense that they are being discriminated against by their own comrades who've already been through it all when they're told that they can be fat but they do need to pay attention is really exasperating. if i hear anybody whine stupidly about death fats one more time i think i'm going to choke them. time to stop being childish and stop hiding the fact that they've ended up in the hospital especially from younger folks who they are encouraging to follow in their footsteps. if they stopped playing this game maybe there wouldn't be so many who later become desperate for absolutely any kind of last ditch effort at relief instead of managing to stay fat and strong.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHayes666 View Post
Are we really that surprised anymore? They milk the paysites for all they're worth then go on national television to either get a reality tv deal or to lose weight. I've grown immune to things like this.
Hell, that's old hat, the cool new thing to do is to do all the shoots for a paysite ahead of time, then get WLS, and then put up the paysite AFTER you're at your goal weight.
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:26 AM   #8
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" it's weird thinking that some people think the core of being fat means not even trying to take care of yourself at all even in the smallest of ways that matter. "

Well, you have to understand that there was a time and place within the history of the fat subculture that sent very mixed messages about what it meant to be a healthy fat person. And at the most dysfunctional, you could be shamed and shunned as a "diet culture promoter" for eating in a manner that was deemed to be restrictive, or following a fitness program that was deemed to be demanding. And ANY medical health care provider who said that ANY health issue was caused by or exacerbated by your weight or diet and activity level choices, was in on the evil and toxic diet conspiracy. So, in order to be a an enlightened and self-loving fat person, the correct option was to fire that provider and find one who would agree never to mention your weight whatsoever.

Weight, no matter how high, was seen as completely benign and in no way connected to your health and well-being. To state otherwise risked being labeled as a fat bigot or fat hater.

You were also reminded that if you did decide to become a traitor to the movement and make dietary and activity level choices with the intention of losing weight, that you would 1.) Probably never succeed, because weight loss is near impossible. Or 2.) Immediatly regain it all and then some, because weight loss is never sustainable. For some reason, weight GAIN due to changes in diet and activity level were considered to be completely possible and sustainable, so there was an obvious disconnect there.

One would think that common sense and self-awareness would be enough to counteract these mixed messages. But it's not that simple. When a need for acceptance, validation, belonging, sexual desirability, and popularity comes into play, it's easy to tuck thast little voice in the back of your head away and choose to deal with the potential consequences, if they come, sometime in the future.

Tracy
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:53 PM   #9
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Excellent post Tracy! (Sorry can't rep you.)

This is a big problem in the SA/FA community. We cannot claim to be supportive and accepting of fat people while also and at the same time encouraging fat people to gain more weight. Rather than accept people the way they are (which you'd think would be the point of an acceptance movement) too many people here encourage others to intentionally gain weight. The larger world tells people (especially young women) they're too fat. But when they come here many are told they're not fat enough.

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Old 12-20-2013, 06:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracyarts View Post
" it's weird thinking that some people think the core of being fat means not even trying to take care of yourself at all even in the smallest of ways that matter. "

Well, you have to understand that there was a time and place within the history of the fat subculture that sent very mixed messages about what it meant to be a healthy fat person. And at the most dysfunctional, you could be shamed and shunned as a "diet culture promoter" for eating in a manner that was deemed to be restrictive, or following a fitness program that was deemed to be demanding. And ANY medical health care provider who said that ANY health issue was caused by or exacerbated by your weight or diet and activity level choices, was in on the evil and toxic diet conspiracy. So, in order to be a an enlightened and self-loving fat person, the correct option was to fire that provider and find one who would agree never to mention your weight whatsoever.

Weight, no matter how high, was seen as completely benign and in no way connected to your health and well-being. To state otherwise risked being labeled as a fat bigot or fat hater.

You were also reminded that if you did decide to become a traitor to the movement and make dietary and activity level choices with the intention of losing weight, that you would 1.) Probably never succeed, because weight loss is near impossible. Or 2.) Immediatly regain it all and then some, because weight loss is never sustainable. For some reason, weight GAIN due to changes in diet and activity level were considered to be completely possible and sustainable, so there was an obvious disconnect there.

One would think that common sense and self-awareness would be enough to counteract these mixed messages. But it's not that simple. When a need for acceptance, validation, belonging, sexual desirability, and popularity comes into play, it's easy to tuck thast little voice in the back of your head away and choose to deal with the potential consequences, if they come, sometime in the future.

Tracy
Tracy you expressed this so well girl. they wouldn't let me rep you either so i'll just have to give you a spiritual rep.

i'm really waiting for the day when a lot of fat people really do become truly "selfish" and do exactly what they want and not what someone else thinks they should want.
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Old 12-20-2013, 07:13 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by The Orange Mage View Post
Hell, that's old hat, the cool new thing to do is to do all the shoots for a paysite ahead of time, then get WLS, and then put up the paysite AFTER you're at your goal weight.
Damn. I guess I'm not cynical enough -- that actually hadn't occurred to me, but it makes perfect sense. It also solves a problem I thought was inevitable in the paysite industry: the Internet never forgets, and once those racy pictures are out there, they're a permanent reputational threat. The solution? After WLS you won't look anything like you did while modeling*, so if anyone runs across the images or videos, they won't be able to connect it to you. Mind you, it takes a bit of vigilance about accidentally leaving clues, as well as a clean break from your previous online existence, but it's possible.

Bonus points if you already want WLS but can't get it covered by your insurance because your weight isn't quite high enough to make it medically necessary...at least, it isn't yet.

Yikes.

*For better or worse is a subjective matter -- the key here is that it'll be different.

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Old 12-21-2013, 04:50 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
Excellent post Tracy! (Sorry can't rep you.)

This is a big problem in the SA/FA community. We cannot claim to be supportive and accepting of fat people while also and at the same time encouraging fat people to gain more weight. Rather than accept people the way they are (which you'd think would be the point of an acceptance movement) too many people here encourage others to intentionally gain weight. The larger world tells people (especially young women) they're too fat. But when they come here many are told they're not fat enough.
You're confusing size acceptance and feedism communities. Isn't surprising since this place is literally that: two different communities stuffed into the same box. How the two EVER got mixed together in the first place is beyond me, the two should stay WAY the hell apart.

The only real issue size acceptance has with people losing weight is that people who DO lose weight seem to get really shitty towards their former fat friends about THEIR weight.

I'm probably gonna get a lot of shit for saying this but being fat (and by extension really really fat) is really only for those who actually want to be, which isn't many people.
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Old 12-21-2013, 04:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Orange Mage View Post
You're confusing size acceptance and feedism communities. Isn't surprising since this place is literally that: two different communities stuffed into the same box. How the two EVER got mixed together in the first place is beyond me,
Because pageviews.
Quote:
the two should stay WAY the hell apart.
I strongly concur, but I suppose that the justification is that people who merely come here out of prurient interest may eventually embrace a broader concept of size acceptance. It's not an entirely unreasonable proposition.
Quote:
The only real issue size acceptance has with people losing weight is that people who DO lose weight seem to get really shitty towards their former fat friends about THEIR weight.

I'm probably gonna get a lot of shit for saying this but being fat (and by extension really really fat) is really only for those who actually want to be, which isn't many people.
Replace the bolded "being" with "deliberately becoming" and I'm in full agreement with you. Otherwise, "actually want to be" needs to be placed in the context of how desirable -- or, indeed possible -- the alternatives (diet, exercise, discontinuing necessary medication, invasive surgery, etc.) are to the individual in question. For example, someone who may not "actually want to be" fat might still consider being fat a fair tradeoff for being able to take an effective antidepressant. Or even a fair tradeoff for not having to be on a drastically-low-calorie diet for the rest of their life.

And that shouldn't be held against them by anyone, or by society as a whole.

The key, though, that nobody should need to change their weight (either way) to suit anyone else's idea of what's acceptable, desirable, or deserving of accommodation.

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Old 12-21-2013, 11:16 PM   #14
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You're confusing size acceptance and feedism communities. Isn't surprising since this place is literally that: two different communities stuffed into the same box. How the two EVER got mixed together in the first place is beyond me, the two should stay WAY the hell apart.

The only real issue size acceptance has with people losing weight is that people who DO lose weight seem to get really shitty towards their former fat friends about THEIR weight.

I'm probably gonna get a lot of shit for saying this but being fat (and by extension really really fat) is really only for those who actually want to be, which isn't many people.
This ^^ (stupid 10 character minimum)
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Old 12-22-2013, 10:20 AM   #15
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The only real issue size acceptance has with people losing weight is that people who DO lose weight seem to get really shitty towards their former fat friends about THEIR weight.
Well said. If an individual wants to lose weight for whatever reason, that's fine. But as we all know, most weight loss schemes encourage intense fat-hatred, starting with hatred of self for being fat, but this always seems to translate into hatred of others. Weight loss is nearly unique in this, among all so-called "self-improvement" techniques. When one learns a foreign language, one isn't taught to hate those who don't know it. Similarly for sports, crafts, learning math, or anything else. If you can't sell your product without inciting hatred, there's something wrong with it.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:24 AM   #16
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actually the idea that fat folk who have and do lose weight or even have WLS are always preaching against being fat is a myth. i have a whole lot of friends who've lost weight in a lot of ways. they've never preached at me or anybody else but they are hated on anyway. i'm not saying that some people don't do it because i'm sure that they do. i just personally don't know ANY. but i also know a whole lot of them don't have any exposure to admirers at all anymore anyway because they are no longer interested unless they are promising to gain weight. so, how would they even know exactly what they feel about losing weight anyway? they don't even know that a lot of them actually miss being fat. there are others are quiet about it and pretend they haven't tried to lose any weight even though it's just a little because they know they can't even say so. they don't even come to the fat community for anything anymore. most often i've seen them as acting as staunch allies IRL because they know what it feels like and they NEVER forget. THEY are the ones who help people out when they get broke or sick whether they are fat anymore or not--and it's not by ordering them pizzas and asking for pix if they've gained weight from them. it's by paying their rent, cleaning their house, giving them a ride, loaning a car, providing a place to live, going with them to the doctor, visiting the in the hospital and being their fat advocate, baby sitting, sending cash or even just calling to say "i care".

just a personal note to my friends who've lost a lot of weight, i just want to say I LOVE YOU and i know that you still love me just the way that i am. you aren't that small minded. if anything they've been some of the most solid supporters i know. i think a lot of people just use the idea of ex fat people preaching at fat folk as another excuse to support their own prejudice against people who want to move outside of their preference zone. you can't calibrate real fat people we know who've lost weight against celebs who are getting paid to say what they do. as somebody who has lost 100 lbs i know exactly how the fat world freaks out when you lose some weight even though you're still super sized. so i definitely don't trust any analysis from here about what fat folk who have lost even more weight are like. i trust my own experiences and my own peeps.

until the rest of the community is as likely to respond with actions as they are with their posts they need to shut the freak up about who loses weight or why because it just isn't their business if they don't get personally involved or ever help anybody before they even get to the stage of considering WLS. it just doesn't look good when people who come here looking for help and emotional support when they are desperate mainly because of some of the encouragements they've gotten are called deadbeats liars or worse and basically run out of town for shattering fantasies. and it's sick when they are eulogized, if they wait around on so called friends and pass away, as though they were the best thing ever. maybe before people critique folk who feel they have to get WLS people should be asking themselves where were they when fat folk were asking for their help. in Zsa's case it was mainly nowhere for the people critiquing her the most and whose main contribution was trying to talk her into not taking care of herself in even the most minimal way for their benefit.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:56 AM   #17
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PS:

it's time for a lot of you to stop listening to media and people who get paid to talk to you. start talking to and getting involved with real folk you don't have to pay to say what you want for a change.
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Old 12-22-2013, 02:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
actually the idea that fat folk who have and do lose weight or even have WLS are always preaching against being fat is a myth. i have a whole lot of friends who've lost weight in a lot of ways. they've never preached at me or anybody else but they are hated on anyway. i'm not saying that some people don't do it because i'm sure that they do. i just personally don't know ANY.
I think you likely choose your friends wisely. Here are some quotes from a recent thread that I was reading today (on someone's blog page)

Quote:
I've been on both sides of this discussion and I can tell you these are all just excuses to avoid the work that would comes with change. I'm 120 pounds lighter than I was 6 years ago and now that I'm at a healthy weight I realize how deeply I was in denial when I tried to tell myself "you're beautiful just the way you are" or "you're just as healthy as someone at a normal weight". You are not.
Quote:
I speak as someone who was very fat from childhood until he was in his early thirties, then lost a lot of weight over 2 years, then have kept most of it off until the last two years where I have crept up so that I have now gained about 2/5 of the weight I lost.....By all means - if you are fat and can't change it, try to feel better about yourself. However, if you are able to lose weight it's worth working at. If you can manage to do it and maintain it, it's easier to be happy that way
Quote:
As a guy who's lost a ton of weight, I can tell you that there's a difference between saying someone should be confident in their own skin and encouraging someone with bad lifestyle habits. Being fat / overweight / large can be very dangerous to the health of said person. Being confident is great, but I don't think we should encourage people that being fat is okay for health's sake.
Quote:
When we are young and in our 20s we can believe whatever our minds wish. However I hope you don't find yourself like me approaching 40 and nearly dead because of your lifestyle. It is no longer a choice for me I must live clean and healthy. It's not a discussion of weight it's a discussion of health. I've now lost a total of 84 pounds and couldn't feel better and healthier
This is from just one thread!

Additionally, I think that my recent post about former Man Vs. Food host Adam Richman is a great example of someone who's lost weight, and then goes out and shames other fat people. More important, while Richman's recent comments were more insulting and blatant, other celebrities who've done the same like Kirstie Alley and Jennifer Hudson have put down their former fat selves (albeit for scads of money), and in the process put down others by association. Does anyone else remember Alley's comment after she debuted her first hundred pound weight loss?

Quote:
The 60-year-old actress revealed to "Entertainment Tonight" she's met her weight-loss goal, shedding 100 lbs.
"I feel like I'm back in my element. I honestly didn't even realize what I looked like," she told the show. (courtesy of Entertainment Tonight)
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Old 12-22-2013, 03:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by The Orange Mage View Post
You're confusing size acceptance and feedism communities. Isn't surprising since this place is literally that: two different communities stuffed into the same box. How the two EVER got mixed together in the first place is beyond me, the two should stay WAY the hell apart.
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Originally Posted by CleverBomb View Post
I strongly concur, but I suppose that the justification is that people who merely come here out of prurient interest may eventually embrace a broader concept of size acceptance. It's not an entirely unreasonable proposition.

The key, though, that nobody should need to change their weight (either way) to suit anyone else's idea of what's acceptable, desirable, or deserving of accommodation.
So what, you two think that nobody who is a feeder or feedee can ever be interested in SA? As a feeder who is very much a supporter of SA I resent this. Anybody into feederism is looked down on and considered to be scum by a lot of people on these boards and it just isn't acceptable. I have always believe that people can be beautiful and strong and healthy no matter what their size and that everybody of every size, shape, age, race and gender deserves equal respect as unique individual beings. I have had these beliefs since I was a child, long before I had ever heard of SA or knew anything of my attraction to larger people and it goes far beyond the scope of Size Acceptance. I believe in acceptance of all genders, all sexualities, all races, religions because as far as I am concerned everybody is a perfect person just the way they are, they don't need to change anything about themselves for that. But because I find fantasies about weight gain exciting I have to be ousted from the SA community because I am what, a deviant in your eyes? When my partner gains weight and is happy and comfortable with this I enjoy it very much, I will freely admit this. But if they never wanted to gain weight? If they wanted to lose weight? I would help them with it because it is their body and whatever they wish to do with it is great to me, as long as they are happy and comfortable with themselves. Because whatever their size, they are them and that is all that matters.
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Old 12-22-2013, 03:24 PM   #20
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a lot of my fat friends who have lost weight are from dims and mainly they no longer post here very much if at all anymore. i don't know who those people are and thankfully they aren't a part of MY world. i connect with most of my friends elsewhere and they never preach at me. forums attract a lot of weird nuttiness from all corners so i am not at all surprised.

i do choose my friends carefully and i think absolutely everyone should. as far as Adam Rich he is another one of those paid people who i neither pay attention to or have any idea who he is really? he says what he says for money attention and publicity and a lot of people give him exactly what he is going for. everything he says is for money basically. just saying that a fat person is indeed fat doesn't amount to abuse to me unless he is going out trying to make people who aren't interested in dieting. then they should either ignore him or punch him in the mouth--whichever suits. but what they shouldn't be doing is pretending that he has the power to define their worth as a human being since he doesn't. if they do give him that power that's their problem. the best action is to take the power away by not clicking on anything of his or if he even has a job pressure his employers by not buying what they advertise.

i think people should concentrate on what their real friends think and leave the fakers, the bought and paid for and the gossipers out of their life. they have no place there. if we could do that no one would feel the need to be in the closet and no one would feel something was wrong with them being fat because we wouldn't be handling crap on a daily or minute by minute basis.

REAL is what we should be focusing on
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Old 12-22-2013, 03:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by loopytheone View Post
So what, you two think that nobody who is a feeder or feedee can ever be interested in SA? As a feeder who is very much a supporter of SA I resent this. Anybody into feederism is looked down on and considered to be scum by a lot of people on these boards and it just isn't acceptable. I have always believe that people can be beautiful and strong and healthy no matter what their size and that everybody of every size, shape, age, race and gender deserves equal respect as unique individual beings. I have had these beliefs since I was a child, long before I had ever heard of SA or knew anything of my attraction to larger people and it goes far beyond the scope of Size Acceptance. I believe in acceptance of all genders, all sexualities, all races, religions because as far as I am concerned everybody is a perfect person just the way they are, they don't need to change anything about themselves for that. But because I find fantasies about weight gain exciting I have to be ousted from the SA community because I am what, a deviant in your eyes? When my partner gains weight and is happy and comfortable with this I enjoy it very much, I will freely admit this. But if they never wanted to gain weight? If they wanted to lose weight? I would help them with it because it is their body and whatever they wish to do with it is great to me, as long as they are happy and comfortable with themselves. Because whatever their size, they are them and that is all that matters.
Exactly. Yes, there are feeders that don't think about other people happiness, put people down if they don't think they're fat enough, and just post "get fatter" everywhere and they are assholes and no one wants to deal with them. But they're not like that because they're feeders, they're like that because they're tactless assholes.

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Old 12-22-2013, 04:59 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by lille View Post
Exactly. Yes, there are feeders that don't think about other people happiness, put people down if they don't think they're fat enough, and just post "get fatter" everywhere and they are assholes and no one wants to deal with them. But they're not like that because they're feeders, they're like that because they're tactless assholes.
True, but aren't they the largest numbers and the loudest voices in the feeder community?

I wrote a blog about feederism a few years ago because of just that. I do think (contrary to what some of the SA leaders think) that we need all voices in the fat community to be heard.

My issue is that it's typically the wrong people that are marched out on the sensational TV shows, and they're the ones who give feederism, and in the process size acceptance, a bad name. THAT is one of the main reasons that most of the SA leaders don't want feederism associated with the movement.
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Old 12-22-2013, 05:05 PM   #23
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True, but aren't they the largest numbers and the loudest voices in the feeder community?

I wrote a blog about feederism a few years ago because of just that. I do think (contrary to what some of the SA leaders think) that we need all voices in the fat community to be heard.

My issue is that it's typically the wrong people that are marched out on the sensational TV shows, and they're the ones who give feederism, and in the process size acceptance, a bad name. THAT is one of the main reasons that most of the SA leaders don't want feederism associated with the movement.
The extremists and such of any group are always the loudest, so it often seems like they are the majority. I agree, giving these idiots a public platform does not help the SA movement, however ostracizing everyone who identifies as a feeder just breeds resentment and causes more negativity towards the SA movement from people who would have been allies.
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Old 12-22-2013, 06:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post

...

REAL is what we should be focusing on
Yes, and the paysite world is as real as professional wrestling.

The REAL truth is that at some point -- a point that varies widely -- fatness becomes an extreme burden. A burden that makes having a fulfilling life very difficult.

I first met Zsalynn back in 1995. I was struck by how active and energetic she was despite weighing about 400 pounds. I haven't seen her IRL for a long while but it appears that she's gained about 150 pounds and its adversely affecting her quality of life. Its often the case its that the last 100 pounds or so is what (pardon the pun) tips the scales. Fat people in their twenties and thirties are, therefore, well advised to do all they can to avoid gaining that last 100 pounds. When members of the FA/SA community encourage already fat people to gain more weight they are contributing to a serious problem.

That said real life is real and fantasy is fantasy. Professional wrestling may be low brow entertainment but its harmless unless people start believing that you can wack another human being across the back of the head with a metal chair and not do any serious damage. Likewise paysites are, for some people, an easy way to address prurient interests. However, everyone involved (including the models) needs to realize that actually playing out weight gain fantasies in real life is not going to end well.
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Old 12-22-2013, 06:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
Yes, and the paysite world is as real as professional wrestling.

The REAL truth is that at some point -- a point that varies widely -- fatness becomes an extreme burden. A burden that makes having a fulfilling life very difficult.

I first met Zsalynn back in 1995. I was struck by how active and energetic she was despite weighing about 400 pounds. I haven't seen her IRL for a long while but it appears that she's gained about 150 pounds and its adversely affecting her quality of life. Its often the case its that the last 100 pounds or so is what (pardon the pun) tips the scales. Fat people in their twenties and thirties are, therefore, well advised to do all they can to avoid gaining that last 100 pounds. When members of the FA/SA community encourage already fat people to gain more weight they are contributing to a serious problem.

That said real life is real and fantasy is fantasy. Professional wrestling may be low brow entertainment but its harmless unless people start believing that you can wack another human being across the back of the head with a metal chair and not do any serious damage. Likewise paysites are, for some people, an easy way to address prurient interests. However, everyone involved (including the models) needs to realize that actually playing out weight gain fantasies in real life is not going to end well.
i think it's a serious problem that there aren't any kind of disclaimers or safeties at all like there are in BDSM etc... and that a lot of people who are clueless are being pandered to and lied to out right. playing is fantastic as long as people play safe and play honest.
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