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Old 05-11-2014, 05:25 PM   #276
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I'm thinking centuries of racial animus, not unreasonably, is coloring this discussion. So I was wondering, would people get equally upset if women asked guys if they dated Asian women. When I was dating I was actually asked this several times.
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Old 05-11-2014, 05:38 PM   #277
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I'm thinking centuries of racial animus, not unreasonably, is coloring this discussion. So I was wondering, would people get equally upset if women asked guys if they dated Asian women. When I was dating I was actually asked this several times.
of course history is an important background to the prejudicial inferences made in any culture. there is no negative racial stereotype, as shown by the study i referenced, to Asian woman generally in this country today. so this is a moot comparison that does not excuse the unfounded negative assumption made about black men generally without any reference at all to his actual behavior except for being present in someone's life.

in the 1940's when Asians suffered a lot particularly on the West coast for just looking as though they were of Japanese descent--like people we were at war against. even though it lingered it did not last into the present day on an institutional level. black people have not been slaves since 1863 but many still cling to the negative slave related stereotype--even though slavery was never something enacted against the majority but victimized black males. it would be more understandable if black men had somehow enslaved or wronged white men but they didn't. the situation was exactly the opposite. the situation is black men are someone's heart of darkness -- a realistic reminder and reflection of the negative aspects of what the dominant culture is capable of.

not liking prejudice or slavery doesn't make one irrational if they call it out i seen in the present day. it's not irrational to say that it's prejudiced to assume that a black presence in a person's life period is enough to make them a negative choice for anyone. positioning a person as a negative just because of race alone is prejudice whether people want to admit it or not. holding on to that idea and trying to make it okay is willful racism.
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:01 PM   #278
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after all of these years many people of color here in the US understand the opposition quite well. they are often very public about their prejudices. their ideas are a part of the public psyche. it's no secret. the biggest problem we tend to have is that people who feel they aren't racist don't understand that deeply racist ideas have penetrated their world to such and extent that they don't even feel they are racist.

remember how quick you and others were to come down when i repeated what white female friends had said regarding white males they actually knew and the kinds of character they actually displayed to them?

now, suddenly it's just fine to indicate it's okay somehow to cast ALL black men a white woman has ever dated at all in a negative light without reference to their character or any actions they may have displayed at all? just being black at all is enough to condemn them somehow?
Actually, I don't remember coming down on you for repeating what white female friends said about white males.

I looked through my 4 previous posts on this thread and didn't see what you are referring to. Please show me the post where I came down on you for repeating what white female friends said about white males.
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:42 PM   #279
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Default ^Yeah, I don't quite remember it that way either...

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Originally Posted by CurvaceousBBWLover View Post
"I have found that prospective girlfriends will reveal their racial insecurities quickly without me bringing up race...."
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Originally Posted by CurvaceousBBWLover View Post
"Women who are racist/racially insecure will reveal themselves pretty quickly. There is no need to ask them stupid stuff like that."
I think it depends, really. On the people involved. Some of us are just more perceptive than others. And some more readily-transparent. And some, apparently, a bit sensitive when it comes to certain things....but not others?

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Originally Posted by CurvaceousBBWLover View Post
"The question itself is racist. It presupposes that the black man is unworthy; therefore, he would have to be everything the woman wanted for her to even consider him."
No, it doesn't. Not unless we're, somehow talking past each other? For me, presupposes would at least suggest that the entire question-itself would totally cease to make any sense without that as a basic assumption: e.g. I asked "How did you crash your motorcycle?" That's predicated on A)Your owning or having once had a motorcycle -and- B) your having crashed it? But not, in contrast, your having cause the crash or being at fault.

Although, one could easily ask such a question without really having a clear idea either way on both assumptions, i.e. taking a guess?
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Old 05-11-2014, 07:23 PM   #280
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Actually, I don't remember coming down on you for repeating what white female friends said about white males.

I looked through my 4 previous posts on this thread and didn't see what you are referring to. Please show me the post where I came down on you for repeating what white female friends said about white males.
you are right about that. i do apologize. instead you only compared the act of dating an unknown character neutral black men to dating known drug addicts and prostitutes.

it's hard for me to understand why people don't get that they are constantly comparing black men they don't even know to some kind of negative or bad imagery.
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Old 05-11-2014, 07:40 PM   #281
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I think it depends, really. On the people involved. Some of us are just more perceptive than others. And some more readily-transparent. And some, apparently, a bit sensitive when it comes to certain things....but not others?

No, it doesn't. Not unless we're, somehow talking past each other? For me, presupposes would at least suggest that the entire question-itself would totally cease to make any sense without that as a basic assumption: e.g. I asked "How did you crash your motorcycle?" That's predicated on A)Your owning or having once had a motorcycle -and- B) your having crashed it? But not, in contrast, your having cause the crash or being at fault.

Although, one could easily ask such a question without really having a clear idea either way on both assumptions, i.e. taking a guess?

nope. the black man has to have absolutely everything to even be a choice at all. if i had to ask a black gf if she met an absolutely perfect white man if she'd date him it would be just as wrong. i don't ask my friends questions like that because it's demeaning to both groups. if you are black or white it doesn't mean you have to be absolutely perfect to the person of the other race just to come under consideration at all. you don't even need that qualifier here if it were not important to the question. it's like asking if someone would date a fat girl if she were a millionaire.
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Old 05-11-2014, 08:28 PM   #282
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Default No, no one really has to do anything.

It's not even about a real person. But a purely imaginary person. In a purely hypothetical scenario.

If I asked you: "Would go to China? Let's say that it's roughly the same work schedule that you have now, at about 150% your current rate of pay. With the same benefits you have now, including vactions and time off, plus a housing allowance. The assignment requires a minimum 2 year commitment. But they will pay also for coach-airfare, both ways, with 2 additional return trips included for every full year you remain in the position."

You might say: "No, I wouldn't go to China for all of that at double my current rate of pay. In fact, I just wouldn't do it. I wouldn't consider it for any reason. "

However, there's nothing in my question that really presumes anything. Yes, it's possible to infer from how I'm describing the offer that there's something about going to China which demands a certain premium. But, it makes just as much sense to think...that going to China, for some people, is an attractive opportunity. Such that they would consider the same offer for substantially less than what they currently make.

So, the same would be true if the salary quoted was %200 of your current rate of pay. Or a million dollars. Or a billion dollars.

And, again, I don't think anyone's arguing the point that they need to ask this particular question or another. It's more about what you say you can infer, conclusively, from the question itself. How you go about importing the reasoning from one type of scenario to another.
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Old 05-11-2014, 08:55 PM   #283
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It's not even about a real person. But a purely imaginary person. In a purely hypothetical scenario.

If I asked you: "Would go to China? Let's say that it's roughly the same work schedule that you have now, at about 150% your current rate of pay. With the same benefits you have now, including vactions and time off, plus a housing allowance. The assignment requires a minimum 2 year commitment. But they will pay also for coach-airfare, both ways, with 2 additional return trips included for every full year you remain in the position."

You might say: "No, I wouldn't go to China for all of that at double my current rate of pay. In fact, I just wouldn't do it. I wouldn't consider it for any reason. "

However, there's nothing in my question that really presumes anything. Yes, it's possible to infer from how I'm describing the offer that there's something about going to China which demands a certain premium. But, it makes just as much sense to think...that going to China, for some people, is an attractive opportunity. Such that they would consider the same offer for substantially less than what they currently make.

So, the same would be true if the salary quoted was %200 of your current rate of pay. Or a million dollars. Or a billion dollars.

And, again, I don't think anyone's arguing the point that they need to ask this particular question or another. It's more about what you say you can infer, conclusively, from the question itself. How you go about importing the reasoning from one type of scenario to another.
is it really that hard for intelligent people. i don't think so. most people i know get it quite easily that presupposing people are less and need some kind of a pork chop around their neck to be dated is disrespectful.

it is a hypothetical, but that hypothetical means we are testing the logic of the question of whether a question about race is appropriate. the hypothesis was that basically it would be okay to ask a white woman if a black male had everything would she date him. the assumption of that hypothesis in and of itself is flawed and shows a racial bias, which makes it a flawed or incorrect hypothetical that proves the failure of this question to pose a question about race in an acceptable way. if you are trying to show that the question can be posed in a race neutral manner or non race negative way this further shows it cannot be.

assumed: if a man is white
if man is black and is absolutely everything she wants
______________________________________
a white woman will date him


outside of that the syllogistic circle is:

assumed: if the black man is not white
if a black man is not absolutely everything she wants
___________________________________________
a white woman will not date him

so if a man has to be either white or absolutely perfect there is an implicit imbalance there. i don't think putting a pork chop around a black man's neck makes it come out any better.
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:49 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
It's not even about a real person. But a purely imaginary person. In a purely hypothetical scenario.

If I asked you: "Would go to China? Let's say that it's roughly the same work schedule that you have now, at about 150% your current rate of pay. With the same benefits you have now, including vactions and time off, plus a housing allowance. The assignment requires a minimum 2 year commitment. But they will pay also for coach-airfare, both ways, with 2 additional return trips included for every full year you remain in the position."

You might say: "No, I wouldn't go to China for all of that at double my current rate of pay. In fact, I just wouldn't do it. I wouldn't consider it for any reason. "

However, there's nothing in my question that really presumes anything. Yes, it's possible to infer from how I'm describing the offer that there's something about going to China which demands a certain premium. But, it makes just as much sense to think...that going to China, for some people, is an attractive opportunity. Such that they would consider the same offer for substantially less than what they currently make.

So, the same would be true if the salary quoted was %200 of your current rate of pay. Or a million dollars. Or a billion dollars.

And, again, I don't think anyone's arguing the point that they need to ask this particular question or another. It's more about what you say you can infer, conclusively, from the question itself. How you go about importing the reasoning from one type of scenario to another.
This is an interesting analogy that epitomizes everything that is screwed up about some folks' attitudes about interracial dating. Are we to believe that dating someone of another race is comparable to taking a trip to an exotic location? It's crazy, but some folks actually believe that.



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Old 05-12-2014, 12:54 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
I'm thinking centuries of racial animus, not unreasonably, is coloring this discussion. So I was wondering, would people get equally upset if women asked guys if they dated Asian women. When I was dating I was actually asked this several times.
People are really silly about this kind of thing. What folks really need to be asking is not "Do you date Asians/African Americans/Latinos" but rather will the other person be willing to date a unique individual who has something to offer. The other person is not being asked to date your culture. He/she is being asked to date you. Learning about another culture is something that can be done during the process of getting to know another person.




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Old 05-13-2014, 11:27 AM   #286
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Default Also of note:

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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
"...with no reference to his character or behavior at all. *sigh*"
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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
"...nothing to do with color but character. sometimes people just might want to have any excuse other than being personally unacceptable."
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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
"....like it's some kind of a test certainly consider men like you to be a mark. if you are willing to be that "mark" that is up to you. but for me i personally won't tolerate it... if you believe people have the right to do that to you and your character, that is your problem."
You keep pointing to this contrast in terms, between color and character. As if it's news to anyone that a person's color is not an indicator of their values or morality.

However, there's (what should be) an obvious problem: The decision of who to have sex with (or date or marry) involves more than an assessment of character, if it can be said to involve that at all?!

Okay, certainly, there's some room for confusion; in that intimacy, basically, requires or implies a certain degree of trust. A measure of compatibility in terms of the most basic values. But, c'mon.

Everyone knows that it's possible to have a very strong physical, if not wholly-romantic, attraction for someone while having serious questions or doubts about what kind of person they are. Similarly, it's quite normal to deeply admire someone on a personal level, to hold them in a very high regard just in terms of their overall character, but without wanting to sleep with them. And, here, I don't mean because it's the wrong thing to do or somehow inappropriate. I mean that, despite seeing someone as one's own equal (or better...), you're just not that attracted to them...

So, excluding someone dating-wise is not really an indictment of their character. As much as choosing to do otherwise is not any evidence of the opposite of that.

True, as we get older, more rigid & dogmatic (crotchety?) with respect to our own feelings and perspectives;, yeah, then it's (compatibility) all about ideas and values and personality. But that doesn't really match-up with the reality of how most romantic pairings will tend to occur over the course of a lifetime. In fact, some of the best, most constructive relationships endure precisely because of how such differences can challenge either partner.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:25 PM   #287
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you are right about that. i do apologize. instead you only compared the act of dating an unknown character neutral black men to dating known drug addicts and prostitutes.

it's hard for me to understand why people don't get that they are constantly comparing black men they don't even know to some kind of negative or bad imagery.
That isn't what I wrote. I did not compare the act of dating an unknown character neutral black men to dating known drug addicts and prostitutes.
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:49 PM   #288
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That isn't what I wrote. I did not compare the act of dating an unknown character neutral black men to dating known drug addicts and prostitutes.
Actually, Vardon_grip, you did compare dating black men to drug addicts and prostitutes. The statement you made is implicitly racist.




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Old 05-13-2014, 08:02 PM   #289
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Default Okay, just to make it easier for everyone:

This is the post for which he's a racist? Or, implied-racist?
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Old 05-13-2014, 09:43 PM   #290
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This is the post for which he's a racist? Or, implied-racist?
yes, and making that analogy as though those situations have anything at all to do with with people who simply have a different pigment in their skin is racism

i dont think that a lot of you really understand that your adherence to racial prejudice is what keeps it going. if you personally understand that character has nothing to do with race then why the need to perpetuate the racist connection between the two anyway?
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Old 05-13-2014, 09:50 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by CurvaceousBBWLover View Post
Actually, Vardon_grip, you did compare dating black men to drug addicts and prostitutes. The statement you made is implicitly racist.




Again, that isn't what I wrote.
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Old 05-13-2014, 09:51 PM   #292
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You keep pointing to this contrast in terms, between color and character. As if it's news to anyone that a person's color is not an indicator of their values or morality.

However, there's (what should be) an obvious problem: The decision of who to have sex with (or date or marry) involves more than an assessment of character, if it can be said to involve that at all?!

Okay, certainly, there's some room for confusion; in that intimacy, basically, requires or implies a certain degree of trust. A measure of compatibility in terms of the most basic values. But, c'mon.

Everyone knows that it's possible to have a very strong physical, if not wholly-romantic, attraction for someone while having serious questions or doubts about what kind of person they are. Similarly, it's quite normal to deeply admire someone on a personal level, to hold them in a very high regard just in terms of their overall character, but without wanting to sleep with them. And, here, I don't mean because it's the wrong thing to do or somehow inappropriate. I mean that, despite seeing someone as one's own equal (or better...), you're just not that attracted to them...

So, excluding someone dating-wise is not really an indictment of their character. As much as choosing to do otherwise is not any evidence of the opposite of that.

True, as we get older, more rigid & dogmatic (crotchety?) with respect to our own feelings and perspectives;, yeah, then it's (compatibility) all about ideas and values and personality. But that doesn't really match-up with the reality of how most romantic pairings will tend to occur over the course of a lifetime. In fact, some of the best, most constructive relationships endure precisely because of how such differences can challenge either partner.
when a white man is interested in a white woman what does that white woman's having dated a black man have to do with a physical attraction to her? that white man would not be dating that black man. so in this case your analogy about physical attraction is wrong because dating a black man does nothing to change a white woman physically. the question of dating a black man is some kind of a character issue for the white man re: the white woman where it should not be because race has nothing to do with character.

keep trying to confuse the issue, but you can't make it right.
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:01 PM   #293
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here is the quote noting that we are talking about racial prejudice and here are the things you put in the same category as an analogy:

I have a prejudice against dating intravenous drug users, drug dealers, meth/coke heads and murderers or people who've dated heroin/meth/cocaine users/dealers. I don't have a problem with asking questions related to that subject because I am prejudiced. Does that make me bad? Maybe. Probably. Definitely?




sorry but race is not in a similar category in any way whatsoever. being black isn't an illness or an addiction or a crime.

if you think that a white woman dating intravenous drug users, drug dealers, meth/coke heads and murderers is anything like her dating a black man AT ALL you have serious issues.
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:05 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
here is the quote noting that we are talking about racial prejudice and here are the things you put in the same category as an analogy:

I have a prejudice against dating intravenous drug users, drug dealers, meth/coke heads and murderers or people who've dated heroin/meth/cocaine users/dealers. I don't have a problem with asking questions related to that subject because I am prejudiced. Does that make me bad? Maybe. Probably. Definitely?




sorry but race is not in a similar category in any way whatsoever. being black isn't an illness or an addiction or a crime.
Really...?
Where is race (black or otherwise) compared to drug users, murderers..etc. It is nowhere in the quote.
You didn't see the separation of ideas indicated by a paragraph?
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:08 PM   #295
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Really...?
Where is race (black or otherwise) compared to drug users, murderers..etc
we are talking about dating black men in this thread. you made the mental connection whether conscious or subconscious and this is the example you chose. it really reminds me of the people in the study. they never thought they would be making such negative connections either, but they did.
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:50 PM   #296
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Really...?
Where is race (black or otherwise) compared to drug users, murderers..etc. It is nowhere in the quote.
You didn't see the separation of ideas indicated by a paragraph?
Vardon_grip, you are the one who connected black men to drug dealers and murderers. You are in serious denial, but your post was racist.



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Old 05-14-2014, 12:07 AM   #297
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Default ^So, now, just describing or explaining the (possibly offensive)....

reasoning & motivations..of other (hypothetical) people...is racist? Who knew?!

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Originally Posted by CurvaceousBBWLover View Post
"People are really silly about this kind of thing.... "
I agree. Certainly, it should seem so from the p.o.v. of an older, more seasoned person. One who's been to a few rodeos, been knocked off, stomped-out here & there.

Look, young people do and say and think lots of silly things. They ask all the wrong questions and worry a lot over things which are largely inconsequential. Give an undue focus to certain frivolities. But-yet, manage to overlook stuff that's actually important.

Indeed, youth is wasted on the young. What an advantage it might be for a young person to take the time to listen to every old (+30) person, as if each they had something important to teach them, directly or indirectly, if only they could get past all of the moralizing?

Is that what you did when you were 18-21, 22, 23, 24, 25....

Certainly, I know I wish I had.

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Originally Posted by CurvaceousBBWLover View Post
"...will the other person be willing to date a unique individual who has something to offer. The other person is not being asked to date your culture. He/she is being asked to date you. Learning about another culture is something that can be done during the process of getting to know another person."
Treating everyone as an individual demands a certain degree of focus and attention that not everyone is prepared to give to everyone else. Especially against (the appearance of, practically) limitless other options. So, both exclusions and inclusions are often applied based on largely superficial criteria.

Obviously, given enough time, anyone will surprise you, do something you'd have imagined was somehow either beyond or beneath them. But, by the time it takes to actually get to know someone, you've already invested something you can't quite recoup even if it's what you both wanted: time.

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Originally Posted by CurvaceousBBWLover View Post
"This is an interesting analogy that epitomizes everything that is screwed up about some folks' attitudes about interracial dating. Are we to believe that dating someone of another race is comparable to taking a trip to an exotic location?.."
Maybe, but only if you remember to include your own interpretation of & reaction to it.

China (People Republic of..) could signify the exotic. That is, if it's a place you're not originally from, or to which you've never traveled. Or, maybe, if it's not a place you might expect your work to take you. In other words, the context goes a long way towards building the meaning?

However, for the purposes of what I'm trying to say, maybe it will help for you to substitute another literal meaning for the same word (e.g. China, ME; near Augusta. Or China, TX; just outside Beaumont.) so as to access one that works differently on a figurative level; but for you, of course. Not-necessarily every other person out there...

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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
"...supposing people are less and need some kind of a pork chop around their neck to be dated is disrespectful."
That, I understand pretty well. I think it's more about how we've arrived at that point. The process through which:

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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
"..it is a hypothetical, but that hypothetical means we are testing the logic of the question.."
No. A hypothetical scenario is testing a hypothesis. But it's generally one about the reasoning of the person to whom the scenario is presented. Not the question itself.

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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
"..of whether a question about race is appropriate. the hypothesis was that basically it would be okay to.."
No. I don't think anyone is really making the argument about anything being ok or appropriate, which is mostly relative, right?

If you're a Callation, then, I guess it's okay or appropriate to eat your own father's corpse. However, if you are a(n ancient) Greek, then the only appropriate course is to burn that body.

I think we're more debating over the real meaning of what people do & say. In certain situations. And how certain or smug we should act over it.

And, I guess, what actually constitutes racism? Or white-supremacy.

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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
"

assumed: if a man is white
if man is black and is absolutely everything she wants
______________________________________
a white woman will date him


outside of that the syllogistic circle is:
"
But-yet, you can't really assume what the person being asked the question would do in either of the two scenarios. That's kind of the whole point of asking the question.

Besides, this is not really about any kind of formal logic, but what people really mean, how they communicate. It might seem unworldly or juvenile, I don't discount that. But, maybe, if one comes from a place of apparent privilege (e.g. passably-white, an attorney), it can be a hang-up of sorts, to not want to seem so sophisticated. Especially with respect to a certain type of audience.

I mean, maybe the point is not to be ok or appropriate. Or politically-correct. Does that by itself, make it racist? I don't think so.
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Old 05-14-2014, 01:44 AM   #298
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we are talking about dating black men in this thread. you made the mental connection whether conscious or subconscious and this is the example you chose. it really reminds me of the people in the study. they never thought they would be making such negative connections either, but they did.
No.

I said in a slightly earlier post that I was answering the question the OP asked as the original topic of the thread.
WHY DO WHITE MEN ASK IF I DATE BLACK MEN? (paraphrased)
I presented an example of WHY I thought that white men asked her about dating a black man. I didn't support, nor did I condone any behavior I described. One can talk about the WHY of a topic and not agree with the WHY. I don't think it is that difficult to understand.

"It's racist and yet,in the mind of the person asking, it is possible that it isn't to them. (then again, it can be totally be about race just because they are complete racists)
Right or wrong, we do this because we think it gives us insight into another's personality and we want to avoid things that what will cause problems; real or perceived.
"

...in the MIND OF THE PERSON ASKING. As in...not my mind or thoughts, but from another's thoughts or viewpoint. In this case, the white guys asking about F&P dating habits.
When I say, "It's racist...", do I say it in a way that supports racism or are you letting your own prejudices cloud your reading?

In another post in this thread I said that you were "absolutely right" that "hatred is wrong". I called the people who perpetuate hatred, "THE OPPOSITION". I also talked about getting the opposition to CHANGE...as in, not hating people because of..oh, I don't know...something like their color!!??? I think your head is down and you are swinging wildly with your fists to protect yourself. The problem with that is, with your head down, you can't always see who you are fighting.

I never compared racial color to drug use or crime. I used my own and other's prejudices to illustrate a few things. Prejudices can hide insecurities and they can also be used for what we THINK we need protection from. That doesn't say that our perceptions are always right. Our perceptions could come from negative places. I also think that ALL OF US use prejudices to protect ourselves and ALL OF US justify those prejudices as we deem necessary.

To say, "Racism/prejudice/hatred is bad and that's all I need to understand about it." is extremely short sighted.
If WE can understand our own prejudices, then maybe we can find a way to understand another's prejudice.
If WE can understand, WE can try to relate.
If WE can relate, maybe WE can find a way to get another to change.

You said don't need to understand the opposition. You don't seem to want to understand that I am not the opposition. When I talked about eliciting change, you ignored it. Earlier, you lumped me together with others in this thread and you were wrong. It just seems that you want to show how you are "right."

I said it before...if you can't get them to change, they win.
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Old 05-18-2014, 09:26 AM   #299
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anytime absolutely anyone treats anyone as less because of their skin color for any reason it is racist period
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Old 05-18-2014, 10:32 AM   #300
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Hmmmmmmmmmm....I have never been asked by a white women if I date or Fuck Black women....Nobody's buisiness....You have a good valid question IMO.....
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