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Old 09-19-2017, 02:51 PM   #101
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You're exactly right. Which is why I think this is a lost cause.

I was once eating some tasty and an older gentleman in his 60's whispered to me "Hey, you like hte thick woman too? So soft. Their big hips, you can never get enough!?" Those might not be the exact words, but it's the idea. He's the outspoken type of person who has trouble controlling what he says, despite otherwise being friendly and harmless. He was referring to the overweight young lady with her friends, maybe becuase I glanced over at her. I didn't tell him I agreed, just blushed.

Just log off. Don't come back. Live your life. Actions matter, not words. This is a waste of time.
Think about what you said. The post to which you responded mentioned the guy's 500 lb ! girlfriend. So if he were to just keep quiet and go about his business not saying anything about his woman's size to her or anyone else: what are people (especially her) supposed to take from this? How can you be with a SSBBW and not come forward as an FA? This would be a monumental level of disingenuousness and unfair to both partners in the relationship. If a fat woman can't handle her intimate partner commenting on her body, he needs to find someone who can. Certainly FAs need to filter very methodically what we say and do and be tactful/respectful. But I strongly disagree that we should go about our business in a sort of stealth mode where we partner up to a fat woman but never properly address our 'FAness' (many relationships do occur like this and can lead to the women being perplexed at their husband's angst when they lose weight).

Now if we establish that it is proper for us to be forthright about being an FA (or even if not but we want to live our life with a fat partner), we must deal with all the judgements society heaps on us. And for those who think it is no big deal: why is it that we see no FAs who are stars in the entertainment industry and other high profile areas like pro sports? Maybe it really is true that all FAs are scientists, engineers and other techies.

As much as it can be frustrating to feel like we are simply talking and accomplishing nothing, it's better than being isolated.
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:22 PM   #102
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Think about what you said. The post to which you responded mentioned the guy's 500 lb ! girlfriend. So if he were to just keep quiet and go about his business not saying anything about his woman's size to her or anyone else: what are people (especially her) supposed to take from this? How can you be with a SSBBW and not come forward as an FA? This would be a monumental level of disingenuousness and unfair to both partners in the relationship. If a fat woman can't handle her intimate partner commenting on her body, he needs to find someone who can. Certainly FAs need to filter very methodically what we say and do and be tactful/respectful. But I strongly disagree that we should go about our business in a sort of stealth mode where we partner up to a fat woman but never properly address our 'FAness' (many relationships do occur like this and can lead to the women being perplexed at their husband's angst when they lose weight).

Now if we establish that it is proper for us to be forthright about being an FA (or even if not but we want to live our life with a fat partner), we must deal with all the judgements society heaps on us.
I agree with basically all of this; especially the part about how disingenuous it is to go into relationships in "stealth mode." In fact, I'd go further and say that it's like setting a land mine under your relationship, because neither person can sympathize with the other on this important issue. This therefore limits the depth and intimacy of the relationship in a way that goes far beyond mere physical concerns or attractions.
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:43 AM   #103
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I agree with basically all of this; especially the part about how disingenuous it is to go into relationships in "stealth mode." In fact, I'd go further and say that it's like setting a land mine under your relationship, because neither person can sympathize with the other on this important issue. This therefore limits the depth and intimacy of the relationship in a way that goes far beyond mere physical concerns or attractions.
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!! In an ideal scenario, the FA (male or female) and their mate (a multiple of combinations if we include homosexual relationships) share a unique issue regarding the general disdain for fat people (and fat admirers) in our society. This is an issue that should ideally pull the parties in this relationship closer together (It's us against the world!), but in reality it does not often play out this way. Other issues that can waylay any relationship often tend to get in the way and quickly render this issue to the backburner.
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Old 09-23-2017, 07:57 AM   #104
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BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!! In an ideal scenario, the FA (male or female) and their mate (a multiple of combinations if we include homosexual relationships) share a unique issue regarding the general disdain for fat people (and fat admirers) in our society. This is an issue that should ideally pull the parties in this relationship closer together (It's us against the world!), but in reality it does not often play out this way.
Oh, my word. I could go on for paragraphs and paragraphs about this ridiculousness (from logical, personal, emotional, moral and philosophical perspectives,) but it makes me want to go around punching walls when I see someone online, saying there aren't enough guys around who love fat girls. Let me just be subtle and point out that no FA hates fat women, while many fat women hate FAs. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

As I said, I could keep going for paragraphs, but the best way to attract company is not to hate and punish them when they show up.
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Old 09-23-2017, 10:43 AM   #105
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Oh, my word. I could go on for paragraphs and paragraphs about this ridiculousness (from logical, personal, emotional, moral and philosophical perspectives,) but it makes me want to go around punching walls when I see someone online, saying there aren't enough guys around who love fat girls. Let me just be subtle and point out that no FA hates fat women, while many fat women hate FAs. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

As I said, I could keep going for paragraphs, but the best way to attract company is not to hate and punish them when they show up.
I am scratching my head trying to understand what you are saying here At first glance I assume it is the part of my reply to you which you highlighted in bold that you consider ridiculousness. Maybe my wording was a little strong. The idea maybe is that it's not 'us against the world' as it is we mutually support each other to overcome some prejudice against us either for our physical appearance or beliefs/desires that fall outside societal 'norms'.

But then when you say "Let me just be subtle and point out that no FA hates fat women, while many fat women hate FAs. You can draw your own conclusions from that.", I am led to assume you mean that the problem with fat acceptance is that FAs have always had a hard time being accepted by the fat people themselves and it has undermined our ability to join forces to uplift our collective selves. And more specifically, fat women have a hard time accepting the fact that some men are attracted to them partly because they are fat rather than in spite of it. You don't need to go on for paragraphs (1 or 2 would suffice), but could you please elaborate a little on what you were trying to convey?
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Old 09-23-2017, 11:00 AM   #106
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I am scratching my head trying to understand what you are saying here
My apologies. I should have been clearer. I meant the word "ridiculousness" to refer to the treatment of fat-loving people as in some way less legitimate as a whole, and by extension, the tendency of fat people to stigmatize themselves, and construct social habits that prevent themselves from enjoying the appreciation of others (something that thinner people seem to have no trouble with.) The first compliment I ever gave to a girl was met with the phrase "I hate people who like people like me." The moral of the story is that some people are mentally-disturbed, so watch out for that.

However, this seems to be a common theme through a lot of the internet fat community, and a lot of FAs like myself seem to end up jaded and alone; especially those who speak out online about it. It seems to me that some FAs have done everything they could to normalize fatness as a part of normal loving relationships, but far, far too many women just don't seem to want that; especially those who would be most benefited by this change.

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And more specifically, fat women have a hard time accepting the fact that some men are attracted to them partly because they are fat rather than in spite of it. You don't need to go on for paragraphs (1 or 2 would suffice), but could you please elaborate a little on what you were trying to convey?
Gladly. I have seen this on occasion, of course. However, I'm not sure what precise meaning you mean for these highlighted words to convey. The word "accept" could mean one of two things in this context. Either it could mean...

Believe
or
Learn to enjoy/live with.

Now, while some women may still have a hard time believing in FAs, (and some men too,) in general, I think internet-savvy fat women understand that FAs exist, and are drawn to them, in part, because of their size/shape/texture as a fat person. The problem would be with that second meaning of "accept." Many of them seem to have assimilated a sort of invasive, self-destructive program from the culture, which causes them to see this form of attraction as illegitimate, and therefore to see other people in a negative light, just for being attracted to them. However, they still look at themselves as fully deserving of love, and therefore are on the lookout for a person who can love them in complete isolation from any physical attraction. In short, someone who's not a man.

Various factors feed into this, but I've been studying this self-destructive habit for years, off and on, and I'm fully convinced that no man or group of men can solve in on their own, because it's, frankly, not their problem to solve. We suffer under it, but we're not able to fully correct it.

I hope a million people don't jump down my throat for saying this, but I just have to say it. This is the only conclusion that fits the facts, as I see them.
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Old 09-23-2017, 12:08 PM   #107
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Now, while some women may still have a hard time believing in FAs, (and some men too,) in general, I think internet-savvy fat women understand that FAs exist, and are drawn to them, in part, because of their size/shape/texture as a fat person. The problem would be with that second meaning of "accept." Many of them seem to have assimilated a sort of invasive, self-destructive program from the culture, which causes them to see this form of attraction as illegitimate, and therefore to see other people in a negative light, just for being attracted to them. However, they still look at themselves as fully deserving of love, and therefore are on the lookout for a person who can love them in complete isolation from any physical attraction. In short, someone who's not a man.
I've noted the same thing, over and over again. Fat women who hate their fatness want men who are not physically attracted to their bodies. In another world, a man might be able to develop an attraction to someone whose physical attributes turned him off, but the vast majority of us don't live in that world. (I'm not talking about existing relationships where one's already beloved significant other undergoes a physical change. In that case, the existing love could hold the relationship together.)

I find it hard to understand why anyone would want to limit their relationships to people who aren't physically attracted to them, but there it is. I think FA-hating fat women may outnumber the ones who accept us, although I have no hard evidence to back up my suspicion.
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Old 09-23-2017, 07:01 PM   #108
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I find it hard to understand why anyone would want to limit their relationships to people who aren't physically attracted to them, but there it is. I think FA-hating fat women may outnumber the ones who accept us, although I have no hard evidence to back up my suspicion.
Well, as I said, it's self-destructive. I've looked at this tendency from every angle, and there doesn't seem to be any constructive or helpful reasoning behind it, that could in any way benefit them. At first, I assumed it was like Stockholm Syndrome; defending your tormentor because of how badly you've been abused, but of course, there are other factors, such as those whose personal distaste for fatness is such a strong emotion that it overrides their desire for a relationship, those who just don't follow the chain of reasoning to its end (many,) or certain cultural movements, which encourage women to view men as something they aren't.

As for proving where the majority of people fall on this scale, I don't really trust statistics that much. I find they often just use cooked-up numbers to try to convince people of some questionable claim in the absence of strong logic, observable or mathematical evidence, or authentic scientific proof. However, in this case, if even one girl, anywhere, was biased against people who could feel attracted to her, it would be too many. Relationship decisions should be made on the basis of good reasons, and there just is no good reason for trying to de-legitimize FAs as a whole.
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Old 09-23-2017, 11:14 PM   #109
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My apologies. I should have been clearer. I meant the word "ridiculousness" to refer to the treatment of fat-loving people as in some way less legitimate as a whole, and by extension, the tendency of fat people to stigmatize themselves, and construct social habits that prevent themselves from enjoying the appreciation of others (something that thinner people seem to have no trouble with.) The first compliment I ever gave to a girl was met with the phrase "I hate people who like people like me." The moral of the story is that some people are mentally-disturbed, so watch out for that.

However, this seems to be a common theme through a lot of the internet fat community, and a lot of FAs like myself seem to end up jaded and alone; especially those who speak out online about it. It seems to me that some FAs have done everything they could to normalize fatness as a part of normal loving relationships, but far, far too many women just don't seem to want that; especially those who would be most benefited by this change.



Gladly. I have seen this on occasion, of course. However, I'm not sure what precise meaning you mean for these highlighted words to convey. The word "accept" could mean one of two things in this context. Either it could mean...

Believe
or
Learn to enjoy/live with.

Now, while some women may still have a hard time believing in FAs, (and some men too,) in general, I think internet-savvy fat women understand that FAs exist, and are drawn to them, in part, because of their size/shape/texture as a fat person. The problem would be with that second meaning of "accept." Many of them seem to have assimilated a sort of invasive, self-destructive program from the culture, which causes them to see this form of attraction as illegitimate, and therefore to see other people in a negative light, just for being attracted to them.Learn to enjoy/live withLearn to enjoy/live with

Various factors feed into this, but I've been studying this self-destructive habit for years, off and on, and I'm fully convinced that no man or group of men can solve in on their own, because it's, frankly, not their problem to solve. We suffer under it, but we're not able to fully correct it.

I hope a million people don't jump down my throat for saying this, but I just have to say it. This is the only conclusion that fits the facts, as I see them.
It is a difficult conundrum with which we FAs must contend. Remember that fat people do not 'stigmatize' themselves - it is society as a whole that stigmatizes them RELENTLESSLY! Any fat people who care to research the issue will have to conclude that there are more than just a few FAs out there (all the FA-centric porn/erotica online should be enough to do that). The tricky part is for them to, as you say, "Learn to enjoy/live with" the situation of getting into a relationship with an FA. Please remember that many guys who fall under the category of FA are NOT honorable men and use fat women for sex without wanting to have a full relationship. Others may have a more significant relationship but with an attitude of superiority like the fat partner should be thankful to have this guy who actually desires them. Or they treat their women quite shabbily with too much focus on what she can do for him - just taking advantage of 'love-starved' fat women (hey baby, how much weight can you gain for me this next 6 months?). So fat people (women in particular) often have their wall put up that you must, as an FA, overcome. Obviously your best bet is to look for women who are more accepting of themselves as a fat person. Even then, you need to take it slow and really make conscious effort to show them you are interested in them for more than just their luscious body.

When you say: " However, they still look at themselves as fully deserving of love, and therefore are on the lookout for a person who can love them in complete isolation from any physical attraction. In short, someone who's not a man."

understand that this is an issue that unfortunately extends beyond the FA/BBW community, although we seem to be bearing the worst of it. Thebrand of radical feminism that currently permeates our society preaches that men who are attracted to women for their appearance are evil objectifiers to be shunned. Only men who profess to love their woman 'no matter how she looks' are worthy of love according to the modern feminist manifesto.


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Old 09-23-2017, 11:18 PM   #110
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I think you guys have hit the nail on the head when you talk about women that hate themselves for being fat. That is the issue here, I think.

The problem is, if you hate yourself, you can't be in a healthy relationship with someone else. Because they love something you hate, and it leads to resentment eventually. I know that from experience.

As such, I'd advise anyone to stay away from self-hating people when looking for a relationship. That's what women mean when we say that confidence is sexy; you don't have to be arrogant or cocky, but we want you to love and accept yourself. I really think that a person who hates themselves needs to be on their own and really work on their own issues before being in a relationship. Sadly it is far too common that people of all genders end up hating themselves for some reason, and that is so sad.

Of course, that's only one group of women that don't like FAs. The other group of women who don't like FAs are those that have either had very negative experiences with them, or heard a lot from people who have.
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Old 09-23-2017, 11:44 PM   #111
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I think you guys have hit the nail on the head when you talk about women that hate themselves for being fat. That is the issue here, I think.

The problem is, if you hate yourself, you can't be in a healthy relationship with someone else. Because they love something you hate, and it leads to resentment eventually. I know that from experience.

As such, I'd advise anyone to stay away from self-hating people when looking for a relationship. That's what women mean when we say that confidence is sexy; you don't have to be arrogant or cocky, but we want you to love and accept yourself. I really think that a person who hates themselves needs to be on their own and really work on their own issues before being in a relationship. Sadly it is far too common that people of all genders end up hating themselves for some reason, and that is so sad.

Of course, that's only one group of women that don't like FAs. The other group of women who don't like FAs are those that have either had very negative experiences with them, or heard a lot from people who have.
Nice post!

Here is an interesting thing to consider: is an earnest, well-meaning FA likely to have a better chance of cultivating a healthy relationship with a fat woman who dislikes FAs because she doesn't believe their attraction to her fat body is legitimate but really has minimal or no experience with FAs (the self-loathing due to societal conditioning) OR those who have been involved with FAs previously and burned?

I hesitate to 'make excuses' for 'closet FAs' who operate in the shadows, but imagine a society where their attraction to fat women has no stigma attached to it. We would obviously assume they would generally behave much differently. As such, this is why I made the (rather outrageous) statement on the other thread that acceptance of fat admiration by society would do so much to push fat acceptance over the finish line. It really seems like a chicken and egg situation. The two should feed off each other, but what is logical and what actually occurs are sadly very often quite different.
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Old 09-24-2017, 01:31 AM   #112
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Nice post!

Here is an interesting thing to consider: is an earnest, well-meaning FA likely to have a better chance of cultivating a healthy relationship with a fat woman who dislikes FAs because she doesn't believe their attraction to her fat body is legitimate but really has minimal or no experience with FAs (the self-loathing due to societal conditioning) OR those who have been involved with FAs previously and burned?

I hesitate to 'make excuses' for 'closet FAs' who operate in the shadows, but imagine a society where their attraction to fat women has no stigma attached to it. We would obviously assume they would generally behave much differently. As such, this is why I made the (rather outrageous) statement on the other thread that acceptance of fat admiration by society would do so much to push fat acceptance over the finish line. It really seems like a chicken and egg situation. The two should feed off each other, but what is logical and what actually occurs are sadly very often quite different.
I don't think I quite understand what you are trying to say with your first paragraph? I'm a little confused.

I'm not sure I explained one of the details I'm trying to say very well, because it is quite difficult to get across. But there is a difference between genuine self hatred and low self-esteem as a result of societal pressure. Self hatred comes from what the person themselves thinks and is internal; "I hate myself, including being fat/short/tall/thin/etc etc". Low self-esteem comes as a result of what other people/society pressures you into thinking; "People find me unattractive because I am fat". For people that hate themselves, no amount of reassurance or attraction is going to change their base thought, that they hate themselves, and that makes them unsuitable partners. For people with low self esteem, being told "Hey, people are wrong, you are attractive and worthy of love" is going to help, because the problem was never with how they saw themselves, but with how they were told other people saw them. I think all fat people have fallen into that second category at some point in their lives because of the way society is set up. Like, I never hated myself, but for a long time growing up I believed that people would find my fat body unattractive because that was all I had ever been told. Does that difference between the two things make sense?

I'm in a pretty interesting position on this one, because I'm both a BBW and an FA. I know the pain of being in love with a person that hates themselves no matter how much you adore them, but I also know how it feels to be the person constantly mocked and attacked based on my appearance. There is prejudice against FAs for a number of reasons, but that doesn't even come close to matching the constant, never ending pressure and hatred you go through in every aspect of your life as a fat person. FAs have one issue where that prejudice affects them - relationships - whereas fat people have to deal with that same problem in every aspect of their lives, from friends, family, health, jobs etc etc as well as in relationships. The thing is, if fat people were suddenly accepted in society, then FAs would be to - it would be seen as a harmless preference like hair colour or height - but if FAs were suddenly considered acceptable in society, it wouldn't solve all (or even most) of the issues fat people have to deal with. We'd still be seen as unhealthy, poor workers, having no self control etc etc even if it was suddenly acceptable to find us attractive.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:20 AM   #113
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This is the best discussion I've had in months. Here we go...

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It is a difficult conundrum with which we FAs must contend. Remember that fat people do not 'stigmatize' themselves - it is society as a whole that stigmatizes them RELENTLESSLY!
When I used the term "stigmatize themselves" I meant that they copy/paste the societal stigma into their own thoughts and feelings, in a way that isn't necessary. It's perfectly possible to reject societal norms, rather than rejecting yourself. The latter is self-defeating, in fact.

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The tricky part is for them to, as you say, "Learn to enjoy/live with" the situation of getting into a relationship with an FA. Please remember that many guys who fall under the category of FA are NOT honorable men and use fat women for sex without wanting to have a full relationship.
I've read stories about people like that (both in and out of FA-town,) and the solution is not to hate FAs, but to hate dishonorable conduct. It also helps to learn how to recognize it (I call it "immaturity") very early on. Here's a tip; look for signs that he wants to know about your interests, and ask yourself "does he sometimes want to do the things I want to do?"

Men who request sex at all are people to be wary of as well. Sex is not something to play around with. It's freaking dangerous, like a bonfire, and while there is a place for it in a relationship, it should be the culmination of the relationship, not its goal or a means to advance it. These issues are common to all relationships of today, and I blame the last couple generations for failing to teach these important social skills to their children.

However, none of these concerns are FA-specific, and none of them, therefore, should encourage stigma against FAs in general.

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Others may have a more significant relationship but with an attitude of superiority like the fat partner should be thankful to have this guy who actually desires them.
Anyone who is loved should be thankful for that love. There's nothing special about that.

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Or they treat their women quite shabbily with too much focus on what she can do for him - just taking advantage of 'love-starved' fat women (hey baby, how much weight can you gain for me this next 6 months?).
Sounds like relationship immaturity again; the excessive focus on selfishly taking, rather than giving. As I said, there are ways to detect these people.

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So fat people (women in particular) often have their wall put up that you must, as an FA, overcome.
They explained this in a movie I watched once. Women who put up walls (rather than merely watching out for certain behaviors, as I suggested,) will only discourage good men, and fail to discourage lousy ones. When a man is only concerned about getting what he wants, he just sees the wall as an obstacle to his goal, and will set to work on breaking it down. However, when a nice man, who respects the woman's agency, encounters a wall, he just says "Alright. I guess she wants to be left alone." And he leaves.

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Obviously your best bet is to look for women who are more accepting of themselves as a fat person. Even then, you need to take it slow and really make conscious effort to show them you are interested in them for more than just their luscious body.
Honestly, the thing I want most is a kindred spirit in this area; someone with whom I can share my joys, and who, in her own way, has joys of her own that I too can appreciate. That's not easy to find for some FAs.

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understand that this is an issue that unfortunately extends beyond the FA/BBW community, although we seem to be bearing the worst of it. Thebrand of radical feminism that currently permeates our society preaches that men who are attracted to women for their appearance are evil objectifiers to be shunned. Only men who profess to love their woman 'no matter how she looks' are worthy of love according to the modern feminist manifesto.
Oh, I'm well aware of the factors that cause these problems, and how widespread they are, and yes, I agree that FAs suffer most under them, out of any group I've ever seen. It's just a bad, bad situation, but certainly, it's not a situation that I have ever contributed to. Prejudice is still alive and well in the west.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:24 AM   #114
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The problem is, if you hate yourself, you can't be in a healthy relationship with someone else. Because they love something you hate, and it leads to resentment eventually. I know that from experience.
That is certainly part of the problem; a big part. I agree. Self-hatred is only going to sabotage your future relationships, whether you're a man or a woman. One of my relatives has this very problem.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:35 AM   #115
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I'm not sure I explained one of the details I'm trying to say very well, because it is quite difficult to get across. But there is a difference between genuine self hatred and low self-esteem as a result of societal pressure. Self hatred comes from what the person themselves thinks and is internal; "I hate myself, including being fat/short/tall/thin/etc etc". Low self-esteem comes as a result of what other people/society pressures you into thinking; "People find me unattractive because I am fat". For people that hate themselves, no amount of reassurance or attraction is going to change their base thought, that they hate themselves, and that makes them unsuitable partners. For people with low self esteem, being told "Hey, people are wrong, you are attractive and worthy of love" is going to help, because the problem was never with how they saw themselves, but with how they were told other people saw them. I think all fat people have fallen into that second category at some point in their lives because of the way society is set up. Like, I never hated myself, but for a long time growing up I believed that people would find my fat body unattractive because that was all I had ever been told. Does that difference between the two things make sense?
Perfectly. I have no problem with people being a little sheepish about the idea of someone loving them (though it is a bit unfortunate.) However, when you compliment someone, and they begin to argue with you, that I see as a sign of self-hatred, and nothing destroys relationship potential quite like that.

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I'm in a pretty interesting position on this one, because I'm both a BBW and an FA. I know the pain of being in love with a person that hates themselves no matter how much you adore them, but I also know how it feels to be the person constantly mocked and attacked based on my appearance. There is prejudice against FAs for a number of reasons, but that doesn't even come close to matching the constant, never ending pressure and hatred you go through in every aspect of your life as a fat person. FAs have one issue where that prejudice affects them - relationships - whereas fat people have to deal with that same problem in every aspect of their lives, from friends, family, health, jobs etc etc as well as in relationships. The thing is, if fat people were suddenly accepted in society, then FAs would be to - it would be seen as a harmless preference like hair colour or height - but if FAs were suddenly considered acceptable in society, it wouldn't solve all (or even most) of the issues fat people have to deal with. We'd still be seen as unhealthy, poor workers, having no self control etc etc even if it was suddenly acceptable to find us attractive.
People make more assumptions about fat people, but I've been fat for much of my life, and honestly, it's never bothered me, because I can just laugh it off. As an FA, I can look at the fact that most other people are not FAs, and from that, conclude that I have no reason to concern myself with their opinions on this issue, so when I see evidence that someone is judging me for my weight, I just think, "well, they don't even recognize the obvious beauty of fatness, so who cares what they think?"

I don't mean to be disrespectful or anything, but in the privacy of my own thoughts, I give no quarter whatsoever to fat-hating. I never have.

Maybe being a man makes it different, but for me, being an FA has been a source of much greater consternation than being a fat man. This is because, no matter what else it inhibits, being fat does not limit my ability to express myself in any way. However, whenever I express myself as an FA, I must do so from that perspective, and it's hard to find opportunities to do that without receiving a wave of hate, even in certain places online, where it should be easy to do so.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:38 AM   #116
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I don't think I quite understand what you are trying to say with your first paragraph? I'm a little confused.

I'm not sure I explained one of the details I'm trying to say very well, because it is quite difficult to get across. But there is a difference between genuine self hatred and low self-esteem as a result of societal pressure. Self hatred comes from what the person themselves thinks and is internal; "I hate myself, including being fat/short/tall/thin/etc etc". Low self-esteem comes as a result of what other people/society pressures you into thinking; "People find me unattractive because I am fat". For people that hate themselves, no amount of reassurance or attraction is going to change their base thought, that they hate themselves, and that makes them unsuitable partners. For people with low self esteem, being told "Hey, people are wrong, you are attractive and worthy of love" is going to help, because the problem was never with how they saw themselves, but with how they were told other people saw them. I think all fat people have fallen into that second category at some point in their lives because of the way society is set up. Like, I never hated myself, but for a long time growing up I believed that people would find my fat body unattractive because that was all I had ever been told. Does that difference between the two things make sense?

I'm in a pretty interesting position on this one, because I'm both a BBW and an FA. I know the pain of being in love with a person that hates themselves no matter how much you adore them, but I also know how it feels to be the person constantly mocked and attacked based on my appearance. There is prejudice against FAs for a number of reasons, but that doesn't even come close to matching the constant, never ending pressure and hatred you go through in every aspect of your life as a fat person. FAs have one issue where that prejudice affects them - relationships - whereas fat people have to deal with that same problem in every aspect of their lives, from friends, family, health, jobs etc etc as well as in relationships. The thing is, if fat people were suddenly accepted in society, then FAs would be to - it would be seen as a harmless preference like hair colour or height - but if FAs were suddenly considered acceptable in society, it wouldn't solve all (or even most) of the issues fat people have to deal with. We'd still be seen as unhealthy, poor workers, having no self control etc etc even if it was suddenly acceptable to find us attractive.
OK let me restate it: is it easier to break down the walls of the fat woman who is reluctant to go with an FA due to internalization of society's prejudice against her (and rejects out out of hand that an FAs' interest in her is legit) OR the one who is willing to be self-accepting of herself as a fat person but has has bad experiences with 'shady FAs' and thus believes that the vast majority of these men are NOT stand-up guys and therefore does not give them the benefit of the doubt that they are well-meaning and eager to have a full healthy relationship with her? Set aside those who have taken it to a truly self-loathing situation that you describe.

As far as acceptance of FAs and how it would relate to society's views of fat people in a general sense -you may very well be right that fat people would still be largely unaccepted. However, don't discount that all the prejudices against fat people also relate to the FA. It is much more than just the resistance to our views/feelings on the esthetic aspect of our attraction. Remember we constantly get thrown at us "how can you in good conscience be attracted to someone in an inherently unhealthy state". As an FFA, I assume you well know this reality. As a fat FFA, I would consider you can be the ultimate authority on the various issues related to fat acceptance and FA acceptance. OTOH, with women being much more valued by their appearance, FFA may be seen as having a much different reality than male hetero FAs
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:33 AM   #117
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OK let me restate it: is it easier to break down the walls of the fat woman who is reluctant to go with an FA due to internalization of society's prejudice against her (and rejects out out of hand that an FAs' interest in her is legit) OR the one who is willing to be self-accepting of herself as a fat person but has has bad experiences with 'shady FAs' and thus believes that the vast majority of these men are NOT stand-up guys and therefore does not give them the benefit of the doubt that they are well-meaning and eager to have a full healthy relationship with her? Set aside those who have taken it to a truly self-loathing situation that you describe.

As far as acceptance of FAs and how it would relate to society's views of fat people in a general sense -you may very well be right that fat people would still be largely unaccepted. However, don't discount that all the prejudices against fat people also relate to the FA. It is much more than just the resistance to our views/feelings on the esthetic aspect of our attraction. Remember we constantly get thrown at us "how can you in good conscience be attracted to someone in an inherently unhealthy state". As an FFA, I assume you well know this reality. As a fat FFA, I would consider you can be the ultimate authority on the various issues related to fat acceptance and FA acceptance. OTOH, with women being much more valued by their appearance, FFA may be seen as having a much different reality than male hetero FAs
I think that's kinda of a difficult question to be honest. I'd say that it would take time and effort in both cases, though for different reasons. If I had to pick one, though, I'd say it would be more difficult to romance a person that had bad experiences with FAs.

Yeah, I know that we have to deal with those issues too; when I was dating my SSBHM ex I got a lot of comments like that. But the thing is, if society accepted fat people, then FA wouldn't have to deal with those issues either. For instance, if society didn't stereotype fat people as unhealthy, then FA wouldn't have the problem of being judged for being attracted to an 'unhealthy' partner either. Whereas if people kept their negative opinions of fat people but accepted the FA side of it - in this example, still thinking that fat people are unhealthy, but thinking it is okay to be attracted to them anyway - that would solve the FA's problem but not solve the root of the problem for the fat person themselves; society still thinks they are unhealthy.

Everybody has a different viewpoint and I think they are all valid and important, even those I don't agree with personally. I guess that seeing as I can identify with both sides in terms of being fat and being an FFA, I just wanted to share my opinion too.
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Old 09-25-2017, 01:14 PM   #118
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I think that's kinda of a difficult question to be honest. I'd say that it would take time and effort in both cases, though for different reasons. If I had to pick one, though, I'd say it would be more difficult to romance a person that had bad experiences with FAs.

Yeah, I know that we have to deal with those issues too; when I was dating my SSBHM ex I got a lot of comments like that. But the thing is, if society accepted fat people, then FA wouldn't have to deal with those issues either. For instance, if society didn't stereotype fat people as unhealthy, then FA wouldn't have the problem of being judged for being attracted to an 'unhealthy' partner either. Whereas if people kept their negative opinions of fat people but accepted the FA side of it - in this example, still thinking that fat people are unhealthy, but thinking it is okay to be attracted to them anyway - that would solve the FA's problem but not solve the root of the problem for the fat person themselves; society still thinks they are unhealthy.

Everybody has a different viewpoint and I think they are all valid and important, even those I don't agree with personally. I guess that seeing as I can identify with both sides in terms of being fat and being an FFA, I just wanted to share my opinion too.
I agree. The main problem is society's view of fat people, and the mainstream's contempt for FAs is just collateral damage. If you believe that fat people are inherently unhealthy and unattractive (i.e., if you're a bigot), then you pretty much have to believe there's something wrong with anyone who is attracted to them. It would be just about impossible for someone who has no respect for fat people to be okay with FAs.

Being a fat FFA undoubtedly gives you a broader perspective than most of us, which makes your insight particularly helpful. I'm not sure, however, whether the FFA and the FA experiences match up in all respects. Society directs more disrespect toward fat women than it does toward fat men (which doesn't mean fat men aren't discriminated against), and this results in male FAs being held in lower esteem than FFAs.

I think the hierarchy of fat bigotry goes like this: fat women get the most crap; then fat men; then male FAs; then FFAs.
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Old 09-25-2017, 02:25 PM   #119
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As a young teen in the pre-web days, I looked up pretty much everything that my local library listed in their card catalogue under the various categories "Obesity - xxx." This eventually led me to "Fat is a Feminist Issue", which informed me that some men prefer their wife to be fat -- because it would reduce how much attention she got from other men. This was the first thing I'd ever read acknowleding that anyone might prefer a fat partner, so it was pretty discouraging. But some time later it occured to me "Guys might lie, give this as a reason, rather than admit that they are so deviant to the norm that they are attracted to fat women." (I'm sure it wasn't in quite those words, but really probably pretty close, I wasn't familiar with terms like BBW, FA, closeted, or fetish back then).

This was a long time ago, and information is now both more readily available and more varied -- but at the same time there is so much information that often all we get is what the large media outlets are pushing and what we go looking for. At the same time we tend to pick up a lot of our views on the world from those around us at younger ages. Some people will reject those viewpoints, but most internalize them pretty thoroughly*. This means that most people aren't out there looking for viewpoints that disagree with what they absorbed as they grew up. So a lot of people have inherited that viewpoint where the only reason a man would want a fat partner was so she'd be less attractive


* thank goodness that most do internalize them thoroughly, or we would never have been able to build high density, high functioning societies. And thank goodness that some will reject them, or societies would never have evolved.
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Old 09-25-2017, 05:02 PM   #120
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Yeah, I know that we have to deal with those issues too; when I was dating my SSBHM ex I got a lot of comments like that. But the thing is, if society accepted fat people, then FA wouldn't have to deal with those issues either. For instance, if society didn't stereotype fat people as unhealthy, then FA wouldn't have the problem of being judged for being attracted to an 'unhealthy' partner either. Whereas if people kept their negative opinions of fat people but accepted the FA side of it - in this example, still thinking that fat people are unhealthy, but thinking it is okay to be attracted to them anyway - that would solve the FA's problem but not solve the root of the problem for the fat person themselves; society still thinks they are unhealthy.
I think that's a fair point. If society didn't stigmatize fat anymore, it might only take a generation or so for things to even out, and FA feelings to be as accepted as other kinds (because they are perfectly normal, after all.) I suppose the issue is muddied by the fact that, currently, FAs are hated by one group of people more than fat women are. (I'm still boiling over how passionate and one-sided the hate in the FA/fat woman thing is.)

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Everybody has a different viewpoint and I think they are all valid and important, even those I don't agree with personally. I guess that seeing as I can identify with both sides in terms of being fat and being an FFA, I just wanted to share my opinion too.
I'm glad you did. Like yourself, I enjoy discussing these issues, even if no consensus is reached.
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Old 09-25-2017, 05:10 PM   #121
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I think the hierarchy of fat bigotry goes like this: fat women get the most crap; then fat men; then male FAs; then FFAs.
I think it depends what factors you take into account. Are we guaging how many people in absolute numbers? How many, percentage-wise? How few people each can turn to for sympathy? On that last score, I maintain that there are very few groups worse off than passionate FAs.

I do agree that male FAs have it far worse than FFAs. If a woman (and I mean a total stranger,) came right up to me and asked if she could squeeze my arms, or... You know, let's go to the furthest extreme with this. If she asked if she could just straight-up plant her face in my belly button for five minutes straight, I might... might get a little ticklish before she was done, and that's about it. Men are way more tolerant of non-Hollywood-endorsed, loving quirkiness than women are, especially among fatter people, and I have literally no idea why.
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Old 09-25-2017, 05:15 PM   #122
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As a young teen in the pre-web days, I looked up pretty much everything that my local library listed in their card catalogue under the various categories "Obesity - xxx." This eventually led me to "Fat is a Feminist Issue", which informed me that some men prefer their wife to be fat -- because it would reduce how much attention she got from other men. This was the first thing I'd ever read acknowleding that anyone might prefer a fat partner, so it was pretty discouraging. But some time later it occured to me "Guys might lie, give this as a reason, rather than admit that they are so deviant to the norm that they are attracted to fat women." (I'm sure it wasn't in quite those words, but really probably pretty close, I wasn't familiar with terms like BBW, FA, closeted, or fetish back then).
I honestly never even thought to try that, but it wouldn't have done me much good anyway, even if honesty wasn't my highest value. That might get you a body, but never a sympathetic ear.

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This was a long time ago, and information is now both more readily available and more varied -- but at the same time there is so much information that often all we get is what the large media outlets are pushing and what we go looking for. At the same time we tend to pick up a lot of our views on the world from those around us at younger ages. Some people will reject those viewpoints, but most internalize them pretty thoroughly*. This means that most people aren't out there looking for viewpoints that disagree with what they absorbed as they grew up. So a lot of people have inherited that viewpoint where the only reason a man would want a fat partner was so she'd be less attractive


* thank goodness that most do internalize them thoroughly, or we would never have been able to build high density, high functioning societies. And thank goodness that some will reject them, or societies would never have evolved.
I was under the impression that high-functioning societies came into existence because people needed money to survive, so they had to work to get it, and that work produced structures and industries, based on the desires of the rich.

Unless you mean societies in general, which exist because a man went out, met a woman he loved, married her, had kids, and the process repeated a few million times.
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:44 PM   #123
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I think it depends what factors you take into account. Are we guaging how many people in absolute numbers? How many, percentage-wise? How few people each can turn to for sympathy? On that last score, I maintain that there are very few groups worse off than passionate FAs.

I do agree that male FAs have it far worse than FFAs. If a woman (and I mean a total stranger,) came right up to me and asked if she could squeeze my arms, or... You know, let's go to the furthest extreme with this. If she asked if she could just straight-up plant her face in my belly button for five minutes straight, I might... might get a little ticklish before she was done, and that's about it. Men are way more tolerant of non-Hollywood-endorsed, loving quirkiness than women are, especially among fatter people, and I have literally no idea why.
I was speaking in general terms, about the relative amounts of crap society heaps on fat women, fat men, FAs, and FFAs overall. FAs get less crap because they're less visible, and the ones who are with fat women are often objects of curiosity rather than derision. If you're talking about turning to people for sympathy, however, I'd have to agree with you. For sympathy, you'd best stick to other FAs.

I think men are more tolerant of the kind of quirkiness you describe because women are far more accustomed to being sexually demeaned (and assaulted) and thus are far more sensitive to anything that might be interpreted as such. Women are right to be more wary of men than vice-versa, since they're way more likely to be victims of male sex crimes. Unfortunately, this wariness is bound to spill over onto those of us who wouldn't dream of demeaning or assaulting a woman.
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:51 PM   #124
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I was speaking in general terms, about the relative amounts of crap society heaps on fat women, fat men, FAs, and FFAs overall. FAs get less crap because they're less visible, and the ones who are with fat women are often objects of curiosity rather than derision. If you're talking about turning to people for sympathy, however, I'd have to agree with you. For sympathy, you'd best stick to other FAs.

I think men are more tolerant of the kind of quirkiness you describe because women are far more accustomed to being sexually demeaned (and assaulted) and thus are far more sensitive to anything that might be interpreted as such. Women are right to be more wary of men than vice-versa, since they're way more likely to be victims of male sex crimes. Unfortunately, this wariness is bound to spill over onto those of us who wouldn't dream of demeaning or assaulting a woman.
I think if that were the only reason for the touchiness of women in this area, it would vanish around people they knew and trusted, and it often does not.

As for the rest, yes. This is why I often tell people that I'd probably get along better with a thin FFA than with a normal fat woman. I like the latter more physically, but quite honestly, that's not enough.

You know, there's a kind of sick irony to the situation, in a way. I keep hearing complaints from fat women online, about how they don't want men to talk about their attraction to fatness, because they want men to focus only on their personality... and their personality is one that is hostile to the interests and feelings of FAs.

Feels a bit like only wanting the companionship of married bachelors to me.
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:13 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I do agree that male FAs have it far worse than FFAs. If a woman (and I mean a total stranger,) came right up to me and asked if she could squeeze my arms, or... You know, let's go to the furthest extreme with this. If she asked if she could just straight-up plant her face in my belly button for five minutes straight, I might... might get a little ticklish before she was done, and that's about it. Men are way more tolerant of non-Hollywood-endorsed, loving quirkiness than women are, especially among fatter people, and I have literally no idea why.
I agree with what fatgrllvr said about it going fat women > fat men > FAs > FFAs in terms of the amount of judgement they get from society, mostly just because women are judged more severely and frequently on appearance than most men are.

As for the example you've given of a woman wanting to touch your belly, bear in mind that your reaction applies to you as an individual and not all fat men in general. You must have noticed by now that, even on a site like this, you are happier being fat and see fatness as a stronger positive than most people. I can assure you as an FFA that most fat men would not react to that situation anything like you would. There's a very large amount of fat men that are ashamed of their size and get angry/upset/uncomfortable if it is mentioned or touched, even in a positive way. Perhaps men tend to be less open about how they feel about themselves in public, and that's why it isn't noticed as much. But I'm positive that every FFA on this site has had the experience of being with a fat man that is ashamed to some degree of their weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatgrllvr View Post
I was speaking in general terms, about the relative amounts of crap society heaps on fat women, fat men, FAs, and FFAs overall. FAs get less crap because they're less visible, and the ones who are with fat women are often objects of curiosity rather than derision. If you're talking about turning to people for sympathy, however, I'd have to agree with you. For sympathy, you'd best stick to other FAs.

I think men are more tolerant of the kind of quirkiness you describe because women are far more accustomed to being sexually demeaned (and assaulted) and thus are far more sensitive to anything that might be interpreted as such. Women are right to be more wary of men than vice-versa, since they're way more likely to be victims of male sex crimes. Unfortunately, this wariness is bound to spill over onto those of us who wouldn't dream of demeaning or assaulting a woman.
I agree with both your points here.

In the example of a stranger asking to touch me, I'd be seriously freaked out. Firstly because I don't like to be touched by strangers (its an invasion of my personal space) and secondly because women are conditioned to be naturally afraid/wary of strangers. This especially applies to a situation where the stranger could over power us, and we are also taught that if we let strange men touch us, we are asking to get raped or followed or stalked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I think if that were the only reason for the touchiness of women in this area, it would vanish around people they knew and trusted, and it often does not.

As for the rest, yes. This is why I often tell people that I'd probably get along better with a thin FFA than with a normal fat woman. I like the latter more physically, but quite honestly, that's not enough.
I think you're underestimating the amount of wariness that most women have towards men. You might trust an acquaintance to touch you, but for women, we are more likely to be raped by a person we know than by a complete stranger. You have to be far, far higher on the tier of friendship/trust before most women would be comfortable being touched by you. And then, it also depends on the person. From the sounds of it you are a fairly tactile person that doesn't mind being touched. I'm the opposite; I wouldn't let a member of my family or my best friend touch my torso or thighs simply because I don't like being touched by anyone.

As for the FFA thing, I would have though that you'd be looking for a fat FFA? I mean, you enjoy being fat and want to remain fat so surely you would want a partner that appreciated that and found your weight as attractive as you find it, right? It reminds me of something Tad said once, about there being different aspects to being an FA. I can't remember exactly what he said, but what I remember is that there are at least two aspects to being an FA; liking your own fat and liking fat on others. Those two things don't always co-exist together (fit people often like BBW/BHM) but you are ideally looking for a partner who mirrors those preferences; one who likes others fat and one who likes being fat, for instance. But you like both, so really you need a partner that likes both too. This is a realisation I came to a while ago in terms of myself. I love fat people and am definitely an FA (so I want a fat partner) but I also like being fat myself and want to be adored for that (so my partner needs to be an FA too). As a fat FFA who's only ever been in serious relationships with other fat FAs, I can assure you it does happen and is definitely what I would advise looking for.
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