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Old 05-22-2016, 01:45 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by tankyguy View Post
Historically speaking, we're the offspring of 80% of the women and 20% of the men who've ever lived.

Historically, mortality rates for men were higher. Many died at sea seeking their fortune, or at the bottom of a mine, or in war.
Sorry to have to contradict you - but that is historically plain incorrect.

The figure you quote is slightly distorted - more realistic estimates say it's 80% of the women and app. 30-35% of the men ever lived were ancestors.

The reason for that is a totally different one though - many men had offspring with more than one woman because so many women died young in childbirth.

It's is only in the past 80-100 years with better pregnancy and birth care as well as effective means of birth control that women have started outliving men in all age cohorts.

Stop the whining guys - one side aspect of more (not yet really acheived) gender equality means that you get back a bit of the lookist-shit males have been (and still are in a much more massive and invasive way) subjecting women to.
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Old 05-22-2016, 02:09 PM   #27
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Also I have to ask who posting on this has actually used (for more than a day) PoF, OKC or tinder? Because I have to tell you my tinder experience is that 1/2 maybe as much as 2/3rds of the female profiles on there say "If you just want a hook up swipe left" or similar. The FFA I met on tinder stated her goal is marriage and children. That's not my goal (at present I guess) so it's probably not going to work out but it's out there if you look.
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Old 05-22-2016, 03:01 PM   #28
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...

Stop the whining guys - one side aspect of more (not yet really acheived) gender equality means that you get back a bit of the lookist-shit males have been (and still are in a much more massive and invasive way) subjecting women to.
Don't disagree with this -- but does equality really mean imitating the worst qualities of the masculine gender?

Also, guys may talk smack but at the end of the night they'll hook up with a women in their league (obviously we're not all Brad Pitt -- or who ever is considered hot today). Traditional guy "lookism" doesn't distort the dating/marriage market.
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Old 05-22-2016, 03:38 PM   #29
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... her goal is marriage and children.

...

I've learned to take people's publically stated goals with many grains of salt.
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:50 PM   #30
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I've learned to take people's publically stated goals with many grains of salt.
It wasn't publicly stated, it was in our discussion about what parameters/goals we were interested in for a relationship.
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Old 05-24-2016, 08:55 AM   #31
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Having a few generations of frustrated, unemployed/undereducated men sitting around with little chance to ever start a family is not the best for a stable society.
Based on what I see teaching at a Canadian community college, there won't be 'a few generations of unemployed men' - instead they will get different jobs. While women are increasing their numbers in university, more men are gravitating towards 'non-academic' technical trades, from plumbing to carpentry to motor mechanic to engineering technician.
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Old 05-24-2016, 03:19 PM   #32
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Lots of great posts in this thread

Hiker: perhaps better to say "Still gravitating towards"? After all, those trades have always been male dominated .... it is just that many that used to be male dominated no longer are, while certain fields just haven't appealed to women in the same way.

(and for what it is worth, women's enrollment in engineering seems to have stalled or even slid back a bit, from what I've read/heard. Frustrating for the field as a whole, possibly a relief for nerdy young men who are lagging their female peers in overall maturity, so less apt to be as effective at being a student. (I'm taking it as a given that higher maturity tends to give better studenting skills)
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Old 05-24-2016, 04:50 PM   #33
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This is interesting.

First let me say, many people are happy being single. Many lie and say they are to cover, but many really are happy being single.

This is really a matter of how society changes. Before the only way for a woman to have some form of freedom was to get married. Meaning, she was in charge of her own household and out of her parents domain. Once women started working as more than librarians, nurses, teachers, etc... they were able to have more freedom. They no longer needed to be married to have freedom. They could work and live on their own which started to decrease women needing to be married to leave the parents home.

In terms of education, women have always been able to study as much as men. The reason why there are more women in college is because these days men are not as dependable as they use to be. That is the truth. Where men were worried before about what their families, friends and community though of them when they got a girl pregnant kept them dependable and making sure they were at lease financially responsible for their kids. These days, girls get pregnant and the man is no where around. (This is not all men. There are plenty of men that are willing to take responsibility and have, and I applaud those men.)

In terms of hook ups, these days it is no longer a "boys will be boys" type of thing. It is now perfectly fine for women to say I am horny and I want to hook up and not be thought of as a slut. (Though that thought still has not been completely eradicated sadly.)

In the end, those that want to get married will and those that don't, won't. You also have to remember that not everyone is made for marriage. Some people are better off being alone with occasional relationships and some are perfectly fine with being alone.

Society will take care of itself and there will always be enough children being born. Right now, this world is not lacking human bodies. This world is lacking men and women with good sense.

JMHO
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Old 05-24-2016, 06:19 PM   #34
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Right now, this world is not lacking human bodies. This world is lacking men and women with good sense.
I saw a t-shirt the other day that said, "We already have enough youth. How about a fountain of smart?"
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Old 05-24-2016, 06:58 PM   #35
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I saw a t-shirt the other day that said, "We already have enough youth. How about a fountain of smart?"
Exactly!!!!! Lol

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Old 05-25-2016, 01:22 AM   #36
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Actually birth rates are plummeting all over the world. In many countries lack of young people is or will soon be a major problem.
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Old 05-25-2016, 06:09 AM   #37
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Actually birth rates are plummeting all over the world. In many countries lack of young people is or will soon be a major problem.
Or at least a major challenge. Post-war society structured itself around the baby boom in most western countries, with a very pyramid shaped demographics (more younger people than older people in any two age groups you chose). After the boom stopped in the mid-sixties, we began to see a lot of angst in a lot of places, because right away the tale end of the boom didn't have the same opportunities that the earlier births in the boom did (they didn't have as many opportunities to baby-sit or work summer camp, when they graduated there were not so many new jobs for teachers, etc). Granted that the oil shock and (in the US) the Vietnam war helped change things too.

I'd say we've more-or-less adjusted to a more stable population profile (barring some who pine for the 'good-old-days'), but it took quite a long time, and it has come with more inequality. Now dealing with an inverted population distribution is going to be a whole other shift. Certainly it has been very challenging in Japan, the first country to hit that. The US will be one of the last to go through it, as their birth rate was up near replacement levels -- with immigration keeping the country growing slowly -- up to 2008. The financial crash had a predictable impact on birth rates, but less predictably they have still not recovered, it looks like they've settled in noticeably lower than they were.

We don't really have any good models of what a healthy culture and economy looks like in a country with a sustained below-replacement birthrate. Not to say that it is impossible, just that none of the countries experiencing it so far seem to have gotten things working well, in one way or another.
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Old 05-25-2016, 08:14 AM   #38
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Lots of great posts in this thread

Hiker: perhaps better to say "Still gravitating towards"? After all, those trades have always been male dominated .... it is just that many that used to be male dominated no longer are, while certain fields just haven't appealed to women in the same way.

(and for what it is worth, women's enrollment in engineering seems to have stalled or even slid back a bit, from what I've read/heard. Frustrating for the field as a whole, possibly a relief for nerdy young men who are lagging their female peers in overall maturity, so less apt to be as effective at being a student. (I'm taking it as a given that higher maturity tends to give better studenting skills)
There was, for quite a while, a movement away from the trades - Canada since the 1980s has been importing welders and plumbers and machinists and cabinetmakers and other tradespeople, and programs to train them were withering away - but now those trades are (finally) growing again, so I would say "again gravitating towards".

Women's enrolment in university engineering programs has stalled at certain universities - others are not seeing a ceiling happening. It seems to depend, no surprise, on whether the university in question has any female engineering faculty to serve as mentors/role models.
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Old 05-25-2016, 08:20 AM   #39
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This is interesting.

In terms of education, women have always been able to study as much as men. The reason why there are more women in college is because these days men are not as dependable as they use to be.
Well, perhaps since the 1980s women have always been able to study as much as men - but before then, there were real and imagined barriers to women in many fields - the further back you go, the more real the barriers were. Only two fields were open to my mother at university - education and nursing. Not the chemistry and architecture that she and her best friend wanted to study.

And "men are not as dependable as they used to be"? No, I'd say the change is that society no longer chastises or socially punishes men who don't stay with the woman they impregnated. It used to be that everyone, men and women, 'knew' that if a guy got a gal pregnant, the next step was marriage - and divorce was impossible. This change to not pressuring the men to stay is bad, in that men should support their partner and child, and good, in that the rate of spousal abuse and violence against mothers and children has gone down.

Again, JMHO.
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Old 05-27-2016, 08:28 AM   #40
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There was, for quite a while, a movement away from the trades - Canada since the 1980s has been importing welders and plumbers and machinists and cabinetmakers and other tradespeople, and programs to train them were withering away - but now those trades are (finally) growing again, so I would say "again gravitating towards".

Women's enrolment in university engineering programs has stalled at certain universities - others are not seeing a ceiling happening. It seems to depend, no surprise, on whether the university in question has any female engineering faculty to serve as mentors/role models.

Canada and the United States are quited different when it comes to traditional male occupations. Blue collar jobs are still a substantial portion of the Canadian economy and the people (mostly men) in these occupations are held in much higher esteem than their American counterparts.

This helps explain why Canadian families are generally in better shape. Lots of blue collar guys can still support families in Canada (I had no problem paying my mortgage when I was a labourer with the Edmonton Public Works Dept.). In the United States blue collar guys become more marginalized with each passing year.
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Old 05-27-2016, 08:43 AM   #41
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...

And "men are not as dependable as they used to be"? No, I'd say the change is that society no longer chastises or socially punishes men who don't stay with the woman they impregnated. It used to be that everyone, men and women, 'knew' that if a guy got a gal pregnant, the next step was marriage ...

I have an alternate interpretation. It used to be that a young blue collar guy who got his girlfriend pregnant was in a position where he could get married. He could make good money at the local factory, mill, mine ... . In the United States those days are over. Today most young blue collar American men can hardly support themselves let alone make any meaningful contribution toward the support of a family unit. Under these circumstances the pregnant girlfriend is actually unlikely to even want to get married. Why would she want to get hitched to a guy who is likely to have a negative rather than positive impact on her finances.

This situation was examined in detail in a recent book from Oxford University Press:

https://global.oup.com/academic/prod...cc=us&lang=en&
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Old 05-27-2016, 04:12 PM   #42
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This change to not pressuring the men to stay is bad, in that men should support their partner and child, and good, in that the rate of spousal abuse and violence against mothers and children has gone down.
Indeed. There are quite a few nineteenth-century American ballads in which the young man murders his sweetheart when she reveals she is pregnant and presses for marriage. He generally is hanged in the last verse.
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Old 05-28-2016, 02:05 PM   #43
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Well, perhaps since the 1980s women have always been able to study as much as men - but before then, there were real and imagined barriers to women in many fields - the further back you go, the more real the barriers were. Only two fields were open to my mother at university - education and nursing. Not the chemistry and architecture that she and her best friend wanted to study. Again, JMHO.
Well, they could study more than education and nursing before the 1980.. the Title IX of the Education Amendments Act of 1972 was passed which protected students against discrimination on basis of sex. But before this there were professional women. Some were doctors and lawyers.

You have to remember that women were denied the ability to get degrees because if they did, then they would be entitled to everything that came with it... like equal status, voting rights, being able to give opinions in how the colleges should be run... etc.
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Old 05-30-2016, 06:23 AM   #44
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There has been pretty steady evolution over the last century or so, from shockingly repressive and formalized discrimination to ‘simply’ ongoing cultural expectations, priorities, and structures. I look at this through the lens of my Father’s family. His mother was one of three daughters, I knew the other two as the spinster aunts that lived together, who we visited occasionally. See, after school they had found decent jobs for a major company, but if they were ever to marry they would be required to quit. Those two chose work over marriage and family (and frankly seemed pretty happy from what childhood memories I have of them). That was what you face if you were born around the start of the twentieth century.

My father studied engineering in in the fifties, and recalls that the engineering department would hold a ‘Godiva Parade’ through campus once a year, where they would hire a local stripper to recreate Godiva’s famous horseback jaunt. It was tradition, and nobody thought much of it that he can recall, it was just what was done. For the most part the engineers dated nurses, because they were the majority on campus, however one of his good friends got involved with one of the handful of women studying engineering at the time. They got married after she’d completed three of the four years, and of course she didn’t come back to study for fourth year, no matter her marks or ability. She would have been allowed to finish up school as a married woman and to work, but it was strongly against social expectations, and well she came from a ‘good family’ and didn’t want to cause any fuss you know.

I studied engineering in the late 80/early 90s. My class had a bit over ten percent women, which is honestly more than I’ve seen in most of the companies I’ve worked at since then. We didn’t have Godiva Parades …. But did still parade through campus once a term singing “Godiva was a lady who through Coventry did ride….” (I think I have the start of the chorus right). It seemed a bit rude, but it was tradition, right? And some of the women in the program would be part of it and singing as loud as anyone else, so I figured it was OK… (yes, I’d like to go back and knock some sense into my younger self). Nobody questioned the right of the women who were in the program to be there, that I ever heard, and for that matter women were over represented in class leadership – in hindsight I think that what tended to happen was that the sort of women who would go into engineering at the time were much more apt to have very strong personalities, compared to many of the guys who were pretty typical nerds, so naturally more of the women filtered into leadership roles.

I’ve spent close to two decades working for technology start-ups (I was with more traditional companies before that), and there is much less than ten percent of the tech part of the work force in these companies that are women. Typically start-ups in my field carefully hire carefully selected people who already have a fair bit of industry experience …. and who are willing to work very long hours at times and/or travel at the drop of a hat. (my particular role isn’t nearly as bad as most in these companies, thankfully). Perhaps it is no surprise that the few women in technical jobs in my current company who have kids have all been in roles that permit a fair bit of their work to be done from home, and they mulit-task their evenings by logging in remotely to launch new simulations, then doing domestic duties until those are done, check on them and run new ones, etc. (Some of the guys with kids do this too, but that is a minority – most of the guys with kids who are putting in long hours have spouses who are home in the evening to keep the home fires burning). Although how much is the hours, and how much is the rather macho culture driving away women, and how much is women anticipating these things and ruling out working for a place like this before even checking it out, I don’t know (the women who do work here seem to love the place, btw.)

(I can't claim to be an exception to this: my wife chose to stay at home with our son full time until he was seven, then she sought part time work where she'd work mornings so as to be home for him at lunch and right after school, and it was only when he was well into high-school that she accepted a full time position, but even then 8-4 because she didn't want him home alone for too long in the evenings. She's made this her priority, which has left me able to work until six or six-thirty each night. Early quitting time by many standards, but certainly not compatible with getting supper on the table at a reasonable hour)
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Old 05-30-2016, 09:14 PM   #45
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Well, they could study more than education and nursing before the 1980.. the Title IX of the Education Amendments Act of 1972 was passed which protected students against discrimination on basis of sex. But before this there were professional women. Some were doctors and lawyers.

You have to remember that women were denied the ability to get degrees because if they did, then they would be entitled to everything that came with it... like equal status, voting rights, being able to give opinions in how the colleges should be run... etc.
Exactly my point.

And Title IX only applies in the USA - and not very evenly in the USA either. Equality is a long, hard, slog.
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Old 05-31-2016, 10:51 AM   #46
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Exactly my point.

And Title IX only applies in the USA - and not very evenly in the USA either. Equality is a long, hard, slog.

It is not that they couldn't study other subjects, it is more that they were dissuaded from pursuing those studies. Remember that there were women doctors and scientists back in the 1800s. There were not a lot but there were some.
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Old 05-31-2016, 11:04 AM   #47
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The fact that women have many more opportunities now is great. As the father of four daughters I wouldn't want it any other way. However, we must still deal with the unintended consequence of greater equality of the sexes -- greater social stratification causes by assortative mate selection.
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Old 05-31-2016, 01:03 PM   #48
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It is not that they couldn't study other subjects, it is more that they were dissuaded from pursuing those studies. Remember that there were women doctors and scientists back in the 1800s. There were not a lot but there were some.

"Dissuaded" is a nice, polite term for the sort of truly enormous pressures that were put on women to study only 'acceptable' fields.

Hats off the pioneering women who didn't buckle under the pressure!

But, in the name of all those who didn't get the chance to study what they wanted, let us still pursue equality now!
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Old 05-31-2016, 07:58 PM   #49
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Also interesting is the changing effect of education on marriage over the years. Two of my father's aunts went to graduate school before WWII -- neither married. They were proof that the old adage that men didn't want to marry smart women was true. Today things have totally changed. Today it is the most highly educated women who are likely to marry and stay married.
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:21 AM   #50
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Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Crumbling has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
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"Dissuaded" is a nice, polite term for the sort of truly enormous pressures that were put on women to study only 'acceptable' fields.

Hats off the pioneering women who didn't buckle under the pressure!

Ironically many of those 'acceptable fields' were in core STEM Fields such as Mathematics, Statistics, Logic, Theoretical Physics etc. etc. etc. This is why women like Ada Lovelace, Edith Clarke, Grace Hopper, Katherine Johnson .. The team of female 'Computers' who programmed ENIAC... even had a foot in the door.

Fields which women have been pushed out of as they gained 'prestige'.
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