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Old 06-10-2016, 07:01 PM   #1
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Arrow Feel The Stein!

Green Party leader, Dr Jill Stein, openly invited Bernie Sanders (whose progressive policies greatly match her own party) to join her ticket - in either position.

The courting of the Bernie movement has begun in earnest...




The Greens (and the Libertarian Party too) are having a field day (or week) pointing out the hypocrisy of the current two presumptive nominees.

Quote:
Green Party candidate: Trump says 'terrible things,' Clinton does them

By Harper Neidig
June 10, 2016, 11:54 am

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/...etween-clinton

Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein blasted Hillary Clinton as not being much different than Donald Trump, saying that while Trump "says scary things," Clinton actually does them.

“Trump says very scary things—deporting immigrants, massive militarism and, you know, ignoring the climate,” Stein said in an interview with Democracy Now, according to a transcript. “Well, Hillary, unfortunately, has a track record for doing all of those things."

“So, the terrible things that we expect from Donald Trump, we’ve actually already seen from Hillary Clinton,” Stein added. “So I’d say, don’t be a victim of this propaganda campaign, which is being waged by people who exercise selective amnesia.”

Stein also echoed the presumptive Republican nominee's call for Bernie Sanders to mount a third-party bid, inviting him to be a Green Party candidate and accusing the “Democratic machine” of rigging the primary against him.

“What I’m saying is that if Senator Sanders made the case that now he understood, after the very, you know, disturbing experiences of the last many months and the way that he’s been mistreated and beaten up by the party, perhaps he has a different view of the potential to create revolution inside of a counterrevolutionary party,” she said. “Maybe he has come to see the necessity for independent third parties to actually move this movement forward.”

Clinton clinched the Democratic nomination earlier this week, and Sanders, who serves in the Senate as an Independent, has vowed not to run outside the party and to be a Democrat from now on.

“My hope, as Senator Sanders himself said, is that this is a movement, it’s not a man,” Stein said. “My hope is that the movement will continue.”
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:01 AM   #2
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Default ^That's a great idea...

Just ask Ralph Nader.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:17 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Just ask Ralph Nader.
I'll let Ralph Nader respond in his own reported words...


Quote:
Ralph Nader: It Ain’t Over Til It’s Over for Bernie Sanders

Ralph Nader
@RalphNader
June 10, 2016

http://time.com/4364732/ralph-nader-...nders-primary/

The Democratic candidate has many good reasons not to descend to the bended-knee posture of a toady.

Quo Vadis, Senator Bernie Sanders? For months Sanders has scored higher in the national polls against Donald Trump, than Hillary Clinton, highlighting some of her drawbacks for the November showdown. Yet, with one primary to go next Tuesday in the colony known as the District of Columbia, the cries for him to drop out or be called a “spoiler,” are intensifying. Don’t you understand that you have been vanquished by Hillary? You must endorse her to unify the party.

No, Bernie has other understandings beyond his principled declaration in speech after speech that his campaign is going all the way to the Democratic Party Convention. Between the June 14th D.C. Primary and the July nominating convention, lots can happen. As Yogi Berra said, “It ain’t over till it’s over.” (The run-up to the primary is a perfect time for Sanders and Clinton to forcefully advocate for DC Statehood.)

Like Trump, Hillary has imploding potential. Her email troubles are under Justice Department investigation and revelations are still bubbling. The smarm surrounding the Clinton quadrangle of Bill’s huge speech fees, mining and other magnates securing concessions in foreign dictatorships, the role of the State Department and giant gifts to the Clinton Foundation continue to surface. Also intriguing is the fact that Hillary continues to stonewall any public disclosure of the transcripts, contractually in her exclusive possession, of her $5,000-per-minute, closed-door speeches to big banks and other industries.

But Bernie has other core reasons for not dissipating his bargaining power by descending to the bended-knee posture of a toady. He has to keep his supporters focused and hoping. The sure alternative, should he drop out, is a huge howl of outrage, followed by splintering of his voters—some to Trump, others to Hillary, still others staying home in cynicism and withdrawal. Such chaos and rage will not be good for Hillary. She needs Bernie’s voters in an electoral college, winner-take-all system.

Maintaining the solidarity of Bernie’s voters increases the seriousness with which his drive to change the rules, rigged against insurgents, in the Democratic Party, led by the unelected cronyism of the Superdelegates, comprising nearly 20% of the total delegates. Sanders’s triad of protections for workers, students and patients, coupled with squeezing the unearned profits of Wall Street for a wide public works program, needs more visibility. Political Parties should be about serious subjects. Voters want to replace some of the tedious convention hoopla with some authenticity. Perhaps Senator Sanders could also urge Hillary Clinton to choose a running mate who would be more substantive and not just a tactical choice or an obeisant person. The pundits marvel at his ability to reject PAC money and raise millions from a large pool of small donors, with contributions averaging around $27—self-imposed campaign finance reform. The Chattering Class should also be impressed with how strongly Sanders’s message has resonated with the electorate.

Granted, platforms have not been worth the paper they are written on. But that is because little in them is worth their paper. The Democratic Party’s cautious monoculture had nothing to invoke as standards for subsequent political decision-making. Sanders brings political directions, often backed by a majority of the American people, that win or lose can become the legacy for a post-convention non-partisan citizen movement. Who better to expand the energy than this remarkable, uncharismatic, scandal-free Senator from a small, once safely Republican state?

There are still lessons that Sanders can teach the decadent corporate Democrats for whom this 2016 campaign may be their last hurrah. It is called political energy. It is the lack of political energy that explains why the Democratic Party, year after year, cannot defend the country from the worst Republican Party, on its own record, in Congressional history. It is political sectarianism that explains why the Democratic Party, with majoritarian issues at hand, has not landslided the Republican Party that votes for many bills which often register support under 30% in the polls. It is this absence of political energy, seduced by big money in politics, that the Sanders youth movement is aiming to topple. The Sanders people understand that breaking the momentum breaks the movement. That is why the longer range rebound of Bernie Sanders, right after Labor Day, must be mass non-partisan civic mobilization rallies driven by reforms and redirections that are for the people at large. That such class-levelling, peace-waging, freedom to participate in power for a more just society may benefit the Party’s electoral prospects is a collateral benefit from a galvanizing civil society.

Bernie can start this fundamental movement for a functioning democracy with a massive rally on the National Mall in Washington, D.C. and then take it regionally and locally. All along this march can make the faces of preventable injustice visible. New leaders to improve and deepen Bernie’s agenda will step forward and the whole will become greater than the sum of its parts. Ready solutions for the good life and its possibilities will come off the shelves as people—both left and right together—begin to realize what is meant by our Constitution’s sovereignty of the people over political and corporate rulers.

That a long-time, lone-ranger Senator can get this far is a tribute to his focus on widely-felt, repressed priorities. His candidacy is contrasted with the avarice of the plutocratic/oligarchic corporate state. This dominant corporatism possesses few loyalties to country and community other than to control them while treating the workers’ economy with disinvestment and unbridled globalization.

Both Presidents Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower warned their fellow Americans about this subordination of our government to big business and its impact on our liberties and livelihoods.

Perhaps the sonorous “feel the Bern” call at Sanders’s gigantic rallies around the country has its echoes in those similar warnings by these leaders—one Democrat and one Republican—coming from their experience during the Great Depression and World War II.
If the undemocratic DNC push the Bern too far, he could uncharacteristically break his word and march over to the Greens and take the bulk of his support base with him.

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Old 06-12-2016, 10:31 PM   #4
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Bernie has repeatedly stated that he will not run a third party campaign. Why would anyone doubt his words?
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:08 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
Bernie has repeatedly stated that he will not run a third party campaign. Why would anyone doubt his words?
Perhaps that depends on how Bernie Sanders defines what a third party is? For example, what if he claims the Democratic Party lacks legitimacy? What if he claims the party is beholden to big banks and Wall Street? What if he claims the party has abandoned “progressive” ideas.

He could then claim the Green Party is the true heir to the progressive principles the Democratic Party has abandoned. In that sense the Green Party would be the “true” Democratic Party. That is how he would say that he is not going third party. (The “official” Democratic Party would just be a shell.)
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:33 PM   #6
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That's a bit of sophistry that would probably be lost on most of his supporters (and most everyone else, as well).
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:10 AM   #7
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That's a bit of sophistry that would probably be lost on most of his supporters (and most everyone else, as well).
That argument ignores the “cult of personality” that surrounds Bernie Sanders. The people that support him … support him as Bernie Sanders and not the Democratic Party. They have no loyalty to the Democratic Party. They are loyal to Bernie Sanders.
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:43 AM   #8
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Recent polling shows otherwise. (WaPo)
"Party leaders hoping that Sen. Bernie Sanders's backers will support Clinton this fall have at least one reason for optimism: There are apparently fewer hard feelings among Bernie supporters this year than there were among Clinton backers when she lost the presidential nomination to Barack Obama in 2008.

A May Washington Post-ABC News poll found 20 percent of Sanders primary supporters said they would support Donald Trump if he faced Hillary Clinton in a general election. At the same point eight years ago, 26 percent of Clinton primary supporters said they would support Republican Sen. John McCain."
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:14 PM   #9
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I personally know only one Sanders supporter who says she will not vote for Clinton. She's still busy as a Sanders volunteer monitoring the ongoing California vote count. By the time November rolls around I'm almost positive she'll be Ok with voting for Clinton (she's sure as hell not going to vote for Trump).

I'm also confident that Sanders himself with eventually endorse Clinton (just not until after he gets to influence the Party platform as much as possible at the convention).
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:09 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
I'm also confident that Sanders himself with eventually endorse Clinton (just not until after he gets to influence the Party platform as much as possible at the convention).
What if Bernie Sanders demands language that Hillary Clinton will not accept. Like doubling the top tax rate to over 70%. Raising the estate tax and lowering the threshold. Ending all tax write offs and loopholes for all corporations and families with incomes greater than $250,00.

Or, a surtax on fossil fuel companies to drive them out of business. Abrogation of all existing trade deals until they are re-negotiated.

Cutting all defense spending by 50%.

What if Hillary Clinton says no? What if Bernie Sanders walks?
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:37 PM   #11
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What if Bernie reveals he's really an extraterrestrial seeking world domination.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:50 AM   #12
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What if Bernie reveals he's really an extraterrestrial seeking world domination.
Which is more likely. My examples of extreme progressive ideas or your off the wall suggestion?

Elizabeth Warren has already indicated she will bend her progressive beliefs to get Hillary Clinton elected. Will Bernie Sanders bend as well?
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:36 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post
Which is more likely. My examples of extreme progressive ideas or your off the wall suggestion?

Elizabeth Warren has already indicated she will bend her progressive beliefs to get Hillary Clinton elected. Will Bernie Sanders bend as well?

You have no idea of how "progressives" actually think or what matters to them. Senator Warren isn't bending to Hillary's will she's making the best possible choices given the circumstances presented. In simple terms she's being an adult. There's no reason to believe that Senator Sanders will behave any differently.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:44 AM   #14
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Who cares what Bernie thinks?
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Old 06-15-2016, 12:50 PM   #15
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Who cares what Bernie thinks?
This election may be Bernie's swan song but everyone will soon enough care what the newly energized and youthful progressive wing of the Democratic Party thinks. To once more paraphrase the Sex Pistols: they're the future -- your future.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:19 PM   #16
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That feel when a member of a minority is so desperate to stab themselves in the back along with every other member of it... ugh, I.. whatever.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:28 PM   #17
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This election may be Bernie's swan song but everyone will soon enough care what the newly energized and youthful progressive wing of the Democratic Party thinks. To once more paraphrase the Sex Pistols: they're the future -- your future.
What happens when these young people “grow up?” When they are no longer living under mom and dad's roof? When they are out of college and university where they were “indoctrinated” by left-wing professors.

What happens when they are working for a boss that is not all “touchy and feely”, but lives for the bottom line?
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:54 PM   #18
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What happens when these young people “grow up?” When they are no longer living under mom and dad's roof? When they are out of college and university where they were “indoctrinated” by left-wing professors.

What happens when they are working for a boss that is not all “touchy and feely”, but lives for the bottom line?

You're freaking pathetic. You just insulted an entire generation -- a generation that is better educated, more ambitious, and more experienced than any prior generation.

Why the hell would an enlightened generation regress toward the darkness that is today's conservatism.
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Old 06-16-2016, 06:13 PM   #19
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You're freaking pathetic. You just insulted an entire generation -- a generation that is better educated, more ambitious, and more experienced than any prior generation.

Why the hell would an enlightened generation regress toward the darkness that is today's conservatism.
Actually, it is you with the problem. You are unwilling to accept that people can and do change based on their life experiences. That is the true insult to think people must be like little robots; once programmed. They can't change.

Second, it is no secret that your own point of view has a blind spot in relation to conservatism. Enjoy your point of view.

Finally, what you call an “enlightened generation” is only that way because they share your point of view. So if their views grow and change into conservatism; they might consider themselves enlightened. Even if you disagree.

BTW: Why do you assume that every person must agree with you on political philosophy in order to be enlightened? That sounds a bit arrogant. At least to me.
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Old 06-16-2016, 06:28 PM   #20
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You have no idea of how "progressives" actually think or what matters to them. Senator Warren isn't bending to Hillary's will she's making the best possible choices given the circumstances presented. In simple terms she's being an adult. There's no reason to believe that Senator Sanders will behave any differently.
What you are saying is Elizabeth Warren's principles do have a price. She would rather have a soft on big banks and Wall Street person like Hillary Clinton. Rather then a Republican like Trump.

BTW: There are lots of hard-line conservatives that will make the same choice. Choosing Trump over Clinton
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:06 AM   #21
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The idea that idealistic progressive young people turn into grumpy old conservatives has been thoroughly disproven. When Deli discounts an entire generation by saying in effect they're just going through a phase they'll grow out of he's being a condescending in the extreme.
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:33 AM   #22
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The idea that idealistic progressive young people turn into grumpy old conservatives has been thoroughly disproven. When Deli discounts an entire generation by saying in effect they're just going through a phase they'll grow out of he's being a condescending in the extreme.
Word. I used to be an idealistic young person, I grew up into an angry/idealistic socialist adult. >_>
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Old 06-17-2016, 09:34 AM   #23
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The idea that idealistic progressive young people turn into grumpy old conservatives has been thoroughly disproven. When Deli discounts an entire generation by saying in effect they're just going through a phase they'll grow out of he's being a condescending in the extreme.
BM; you claim my idea is "disproven.". By whom is it disproven and how exactly can anyone claim that young people today will not become the conservatives of tomorrow?

The truth is the young people of every generation consider themselves "idealistic.". They are the conservatives you dislike today.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:22 PM   #24
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BM; you claim my idea is "disproven.". By whom is it disproven and how exactly can anyone claim that young people today will not become the conservatives of tomorrow?

...


We had this argument before. I provided many sites. I don't feel it's necessary to do it again.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:27 PM   #25
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I think what did Bernie in was his campaign slogan, "Socialism + Pixie Dust = Victory!", as well as his promising every American their own Free Unicorn. I mean, anyone his age who still believes Socialism is a workable economic system.
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