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Old 06-18-2016, 12:32 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post

...

The truth is the young people of every generation consider themselves "idealistic.". They are the conservatives you dislike today.
Classic Deli dodge. Both liberals and conservatives consider themselves idealistic -- so what?

The important point is that people form their political identities early and seldom change. Today's conservatives are not yesterdays liberals.

In the 60s only a small fraction of youth supported radical hippy culture. Those that did for the most part are still very liberal. For instance the aging hippies of Mendocino County California overwhelmingly supported Bernie in last weeks primary.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Chuggernut View Post
I think what did Bernie in was his campaign slogan, "Socialism + Pixie Dust = Victory!", as well as his promising every American their own Free Unicorn. I mean, anyone his age who still believes Socialism is a workable economic system.
Bernie's brand of social democracy works just fine in scores of developed countries (from Sweden to Canada). Many of these countries have standards of living far higher than ours.

And the free stuff trope is bullshit!!! Government provides infrastructure that allows a country develop. Roads, bridges, ports, airports, police and fire protection, public health, primary and secondary education ... government provides this free stuff in whole or in part for the benefit of all. Adding post-secondary education is a very reasonable addition that acknowledges that today access to post-secondary education is essential -- for both individuals and the nation. Not unlike the need for access to quality secondary education a century ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_school_movement
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Old 06-19-2016, 09:10 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
Bernie's brand of social democracy works just fine in scores of developed countries (from Sweden to Canada). Many of these countries have standards of living far higher than ours.
How exactly is the United States of America anything like Sweden or Canada? The US is a nation of 300 million plus with a diverse population. What is the population of Sweden? Second, both Canada and Sweden live under the protection given by the US military. Finally, the Canadian economy is dependent on the US economy. (Must be why Canadian doctors send their patients to the US for treatment that they can't get in a timely fashion in Canada.)
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And the free stuff trope is bullshit!!! Government provides infrastructure that allows a country develop. Roads, bridges, ports, airports, police and fire protection, public health, primary and secondary education ... government provides this free stuff in whole or in part for the benefit of all. Adding post-secondary education is a very reasonable addition that acknowledges that today access to post-secondary education is essential -- for both individuals and the nation. Not unlike the need for access to quality secondary education a century ago.
Actually, the government does not provide any free stuff. It is all paid for by taxes. Which means it is not free.

So when someone claims the government should provide “free” secondary education they are lying. As my late father would say; “There is no free lunch!”
Someone will always have to pay.
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Old 06-19-2016, 11:29 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post

...


Actually, the government does not provide any free stuff. It is all paid for by taxes. Which means it is not free.

So when someone claims the government should provide “free” secondary education they are lying. As my late father would say; “There is no free lunch!”
Someone will always have to pay.
No shit -- thanks for once again stating the obvious.

Let me lay this out more simply. The people that bitch about the government providing "free stuff" are a bunch of hypocrites. They have no problem with tax revenue paying for the nice highway they use to get to work and the mall (or anything else that makes life better for them) ... no problem with tax money going to people like them. But propose using tax money to pay for college education for increasingly minority young people (a much better investment) and they loose their shirt.

My father is an economist -- so he can't provide use with any simplistic platitudes.
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Old 06-19-2016, 11:32 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post
How exactly is the United States of America anything like Sweden or Canada?

... .

Thats the freaking point. They're not alike. Life is much better in other developed countries.
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Old 06-19-2016, 11:37 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post

... Second, both Canada and Sweden live under the protection given by the US military. ...


Bullshit!!! Canada and Sweden are perfectly able to defend themselves. They don't have the manpower to entangle themselves in foreign wars -- but that's a good thing.
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Old 06-19-2016, 11:48 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post

... Finally, the Canadian economy is dependent on the US economy. (Must be why Canadian doctors send their patients to the US for treatment that they can't get in a timely fashion in Canada.)

... .
Once again spouting off about things you know nothing about. The Canadian medical system is first rate. I can says this from personal experience (as documented in many former posts). I can say this based on Canada's excellent health statistics. I can say this based in the fact that the vast majority of Canadians prefer their system to that of the United States.

Having lived roughly equal parts of my life in the two countries I can safely state that is much more difficult (and vastly more expensive) to obtain healthcare in the United States. Over the last 40 years every member of my family living in Canada has received first rate medical treatment in a timely manner. I cannot say the same about family living in the United States.

Also, lots of Americans go to Canada for healthcare. The amount Canadian doctors charge American patients is often less than ever rising copays south of the border (I saw a doctor in Calgary in a walk-in clinic for $25 Cnd).
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Old 06-19-2016, 09:16 PM   #33
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Once again spouting off about things you know nothing about. The Canadian medical system is first rate.
Yet, the US system was also first rate prior to Obamacare. For example, President Obama made several outright lies to get the Affordable Care Act passed. Remember, “If you like your insurance; you can keep your insurance, PERIOD Or, “If you like your doctor; you can keep your doctor. PERIOD And, “The average family will save $2,500 with the ACA.” And finally, “The ACA will not effect most people.” All lies told by President Obama to pass his signature domestic legislation. (Frankly, lying to the public is President Obama's way of dealing with the public.)

Of course, Obama had to lie. Most people were happy with their insurance. Only by lying could he change it
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
I can says this from personal experience (as documented in many former posts). I can say this based on Canada's excellent health statistics. I can say this based in the fact that the vast majority of Canadians prefer their system to that of the United States.
Are you suggesting Canadians have a realistic choice in the matter? Second, if they have always lived under the “Canadian system”; how can they really compare them?
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Having lived roughly equal parts of my life in the two countries I can safely state that is much more difficult (and vastly more expensive) to obtain healthcare in the United States. Over the last 40 years every member of my family living in Canada has received first rate medical treatment in a timely manner. I cannot say the same about family living in the United States.
I can. In every job I have ever held; I always had health insurance
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
Also, lots of Americans go to Canada for healthcare. The amount Canadian doctors charge American patients is often less than ever rising copays south of the border (I saw a doctor in Calgary in a walk-in clinic for $25 Cnd).
You mean the rising co-pays and deductibles that people must pay due to Obamacare?
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Old 06-19-2016, 09:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
Let me lay this out more simply. The people that bitch about the government providing "free stuff" are a bunch of hypocrites. They have no problem with tax revenue paying for the nice highway they use to get to work and the mall (or anything else that makes life better for them) ... no problem with tax money going to people like them. But propose using tax money to pay for college education for increasingly minority young people (a much better investment) and they loose their shirt.
That is a silly argument. In fact, it is down right insulting. The government builds roads that I will never drive on. They build airports that I will never use.

So to claim that I only favor government spending that benefits me personally is beyond stupid.

Second, you can take your racism and put it someplace the sun doesn't shine. (Funny, how you always try to play the race card.)

Finally, the problem with higher education is not a lack of funds. (Millions in college aid goes unused.) The problem is with the supply of money growing; colleges and universities know they can charge more and get away with it.

Perhaps, liberals should be asking why the cost of higher education is going up so fast?
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Thats the freaking point. They're not alike. Life is much better in other developed countries.
Now who is stating the obvious. The responsibilities of the US government are vastly different than Sweden or Canada.

Second, if life is so much better in these counties; why do their citizens come here and why don't US citizens leave in mass to go to these “superior” countries?
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Bullshit!!! Canada and Sweden are perfectly able to defend themselves. They don't have the manpower to entangle themselves in foreign wars -- but that's a good thing.
Sure they are? Do you seriously think the Canadian government has any plans to leave their mutual defense agreements with the US? Do you think the Swedish government is concerned with Russian activities indirectly aimed at them? Do you not think they are expecting the US to help protect their sovereignty?
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Old 06-20-2016, 05:08 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post

...

Second, if life is so much better in these counties; why do their citizens come here and why don't US citizens leave in mass to go to these “superior” countries?

...

They do! Every year almost 10,000 Americans immigrate to Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigr...of_immigration
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Old 06-20-2016, 06:06 PM   #36
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They do! Every year almost 10,000 Americans immigrate to Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigr...of_immigration
In a nation of 300 million plus only 10,000 immigrated to Canada. That is a minuscule amount especially if Canada is a “superior” country.

Clearly, most US citizens don't share your opinion that Canada is superior to the United States.
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Old 08-15-2016, 02:10 PM   #37
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Here's what her VP pick espouses (and this is coming from a liberal secularist source, not from Christian Conservatives): http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progres...ite-supremacy/
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Old 08-17-2016, 02:07 AM   #38
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Honestly, patheos.com is not in the least bit secular.
From my reading they're theistic liberals, mostly various sorts of Christians.

Still an interesting observation.

The thing that surprised me was that Dr. Stein offered to put Sen. Sanders on the Green ticket with complete disregard for her party's nomination process, as a way to address the disregard the Democratic Party allegedly had for its own process.
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Old 08-18-2016, 05:17 PM   #39
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And with complete disregard for the fact Sanders would never play the role of spoiler.

Stein lost all credibility when she got in bed with the anti-vaccination crowd. Denial of reality is no better from the left.
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Old 08-21-2016, 12:29 AM   #40
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Arrow More BS...

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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
And with complete disregard for the fact Sanders would never play the role of spoiler.

Stein lost all credibility when she got in bed with the anti-vaccination crowd. Denial of reality is no better from the left.
Do you have any proof that Stein is an anti-vaxxer or are you just regurgitating the unfounded BS talking points of elite Clinton liberals looking to smear a political opponent?

Dr Jill Stein is a medical doctor and has never advocated against vaccinations but has, on top of her knowledge of western medicine, also endorsed the use of natural medicines and naturopathy. There is a big difference there (but not it seems to Clinton stooges in media / social media).

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Old 08-21-2016, 03:18 AM   #41
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Green party candidate: People have 'real questions' about vaccines
"As a medical doctor, there was a time where I looked very closely at those issues, and not all those issues were completely resolved," Stein said about potentially harmful side effects from vaccinations in an interview with The Washington Post conducted during the Democratic National Convention and published Friday.
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Old 08-22-2016, 01:18 AM   #42
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Arrow Not all of us are as gullible as you...

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Originally Posted by CleverBomb View Post
Green party candidate: People have 'real questions' about vaccines
"As a medical doctor, there was a time where I looked very closely at those issues, and not all those issues were completely resolved," Stein said about potentially harmful side effects from vaccinations in an interview with The Washington Post conducted during the Democratic National Convention and published Friday.
But that's not what she said. The article is outright making stuff up and freelancing with the truth to smear and brand her as something that she's not.

In her own words from afew weeks BEFORE that article was written..
.



Didn't Clinton Corp pull similar stunts against Sanders when he was a primary target of their campaign? I saw through their BS tactics then and I see through their BS tactics now. Maybe one day you will see it too...
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Old 08-22-2016, 09:14 PM   #43
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The most favorable interpretation of the quoted comment, in its context, is that she's merely pandering to anti-vaxxers. She may well not believe it herself, but it's presented as the logical combination of the party's purist anti-corporate ideology and presumption of regulatory capture. And, to be fair, an assumption of complete regulatory capture (in all areas, not just medicine) is the party's entire self-justification.

It's much less excusable coming from a doctor.
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Old 08-22-2016, 10:24 PM   #44
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A politician walking back a statement that got her in hot water -- how unusual.
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Old 08-23-2016, 08:40 PM   #45
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Arrow Actually listen to what Stein says this time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CleverBomb View Post
The most favorable interpretation of the quoted comment, in its context, is that she's merely pandering to anti-vaxxers. She may well not believe it herself, but it's presented as the logical combination of the party's purist anti-corporate ideology and presumption of regulatory capture. And, to be fair, an assumption of complete regulatory capture (in all areas, not just medicine) is the party's entire self-justification.

It's much less excusable coming from a doctor.
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A politician walking back a statement that got her in hot water -- how unusual.
This is a bit like when regular people try and debate scientific topics.


No wait... it's exactly like that.

It seems you two can repeat over and over the same Hillary lie about Jill Stein that's been hand-fed to you, but unfortunately, that doesn't make it any more true.


Do you need a doctor to mansplain it to you?

I'll post a definitive response to you from Dr Jill at the recent CNN Green Party Town Hall that would clear up this issue for any reasonable and attentive watcher.




This is the same crass tactic that Hillary (and her mindless harping surrogates) tried to pull against Sanders regarding his voting record (she sure as hell had nothing else on him). It ended up backfiring and turning hordes of the Bernie crowd against her.

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Old 08-23-2016, 11:31 PM   #46
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I repeat my comment: the party platform panders to anti-vaxxers, and the statement I referred to above deliberately leaves an opening for them to see her as supporting their position.

Again, from the previously linked article:
"Like any medication, they also should be — what shall we say — approved by a regulatory board that people can trust. And I think right now, that is the problem. That people do not trust a Food and Drug Administration, or even the CDC for that matter, where corporate influence and the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of influence.

"There is rampant distrust of our institutions of government right now," she continued. "The trust level for the presidency is somewhere around 15 percent. The strong confidence in Congress is somewhere around 4 percent, and the same is true of our regulatory agencies."


The video you provided does not address that quote. She may not be personally opposed (as I noted, and the video quote states), nor anti-science (as stated in the video), but framing it as as a matter of regulatory capture ("trust") is one heck of a loophole.

To summarize: the questions she had in the past about vaccines (regarding mercury and Thimerosol) were resolved to her satisfaction, but the questions that people in general have about them (as reflected in the lack of "strong confidence in... our regulatory agencies") are still reasonable in her estimation.

This isn't twisting words, and it isn't a "smear". It's pointing out pandering to those who believe in pseudoscience.
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:18 AM   #47
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Its detestable when the right panders to its irrational and anti-scientific factions.

Its no better when the left does it.
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:51 AM   #48
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...

Stein is talking from both sides of her mouth. In one breath, she acknowledges that vaccines have been indispensable for public health. In another, she darkly hints that vaccines are regulated by shills for big pharma ...

...

The sad irony is that Stein could play a constructive role dampening this controversy. She's a far-left politician who is probably winning the trust of many vaccine-skeptic voters based on issues that have nothing to do with bio-science. As such, she'd be an ideal messenger for the idea that vaccines are safe. A simple statement from her that vaccines do not pose a toxic threat to children, and that skipping vaccines could harm both their health and the public's, might help convince worried parents to take their kids in for shots. Instead, she's playing politics with the subject. It's a shame.


http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...i_vaxxers.html
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Old 08-26-2016, 03:45 AM   #49
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If Jill Stein has stated that the people don't trust the FDA and the CDC, that's a concern for me.

I understand that she might not be saying she doesn't trust them, but it is still a concern for me.
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:14 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Beautiful Dreamer View Post
If Jill Stein has stated that the people don't trust the FDA and the CDC, that's a concern for me.

I understand that she might not be saying she doesn't trust them, but it is still a concern for me.
This is exactly what she is saying and in doing so she enables anti-vaxers.

IMHO pandering to irrational and anti-scientific supporters automatically disqualifies a politician (this applies to both conservative and liberal politicians).
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