Raizing the World Trade buildingS

[EvaDestruction]

ive showed this to numerous other people and apparently ive been clued in way after everyone else. im ashamed and almost embarassed that i never noticed and/or realized this before. it truly makes what happened on the 11th all the more tragic, seeing as how it was of our own doing. completely, completey fucked up? yes. i told my boyfriend about this on the phone and i could tell in his voice that he was taking it as just another 'way' for me to bash Bush and be "unpatriotic," but for HIM of all people, someone who really feels for those who died that day and backs up the war going on over in the east, to change his tune about everything this country has stood for over the past 5 years really means something. it made him think. and it scared him. people who you thought were behind you may not actually be?
people who are completely behind america and are proud of what we are doing always have a tough time being told/shown this because it's "traitorous" and "unpatriotic" and people like myself who truly believe that 9/11 was an OBVIOUS controlled demolition and a COMPLETE and utter inside job by the government and the president (for reasons im not completely sure of myself yet) should practically rott in hell or 'move to canada if we dont like it here.'
if the collapse of the twin towers and the mysterious 'pull' of the 7th building resulted in this astronomical loss of life [in every respect] and if it WAS from our own doing then it truly is more of a tragedy than it was ever projected to be.

what the hell are we doing over in iraq if all of this was our doing?
the gold in the basement vault of building #4? apparently the majority of it is missing yet there arent any questions about ANYTHING?
records and shit for wallstreet housed in building #7 that was demolished for no apparent reason?

so many holes. and at the same time so many people are convinced that this scattered "explanation" is truth and practically burn anyone in opposition at the stake for being a traitor.

think what you will, you will anyways. but try your f'ing damnedest to
at least not 'pshaw' anything that completely goes against what youve been told and scares the absolute shit out of you.

[Miss Vickie]

I watched the movie and... well... it made some interesting points. Not being a student of physics, I can't really comment on the issues surrounding the buildings' collapse. But I did watch it -- I just wasn't convinced. Not saying I can't be, but rather that this particular movie didn't do it for me.

Either way you slice it, 9/11 is a disaster of tragic proportions, and I'm sure that the ramifications of it will continue to be felt for decades, if not longer.

[bigdog]

It's all Bush's fault. The same Halliburton black ops team that blew up the levees after Katrina also blew up the WTC.

Duh.

[Seth Warren]

Originally Posted by bigdog

It's all Bush's fault. The same Halliburton black ops team that blew up the levees after Katrina also blew up the WTC.

He sees the light!

[HappyFatChick]

All the conspiracy theories have been proven false. Is it THAT hard to believe that there are Muslim terrorists who want us all converted or dead? It's not for me....

[1300 Class]

Loose change is a crock of shit. All these conspiricy theories are a load of old rubbish.

EvaDestruction, the 'documentary' you refer to is one which rightfully belongs in the pages of outrageously far-fetched nonsense rags of the "National Tattler' level of credibility.

It is rubbish, and anyone gullible enough to be sucked in by such things is demonstrating extreme foolishness.I saw this, and have discussed it at greta length. My opinion is that there was no cover up, no conspiricy. What happened was a terrible disaster, and the "evidence" for a conspiricy is poor at best, or non existant at worst (the, something presumably is missing, ergo a conspiricy), and I just think its a great shame that the memory of all those who died in the attacks is being sul;lied by scurilous filfth being promoted for political aims.

I try and keep an open mind about these things, but the evidence that has been coughed up by te conspiracy nuts amounts to nothing.

Fuck ups do not equate a conspircy.
Intilligence Failures do not equate collusion.
Hindsight and pet theories are wonderful things, but make poor substitute ammunition in political attacks. When governments want to deceive they make shit up. they don't fly planes into great big buildings killing thousands of their own people!

The theory isn't worth expending any more energy on than that!

Got home well after midnight, and as was my habit of the time kicked back to look at some late night telly as I had a feed before settling down. Didn't end up going to bed, though, because I ended up rivetted to the screen, watching events unfold.

I watched as a passdenger aircraft flew straight into the second tower. I watched as reports showed a Pentagon on fire, and eye wirtness bystanders reported seeing the plane that flew into it. I watched as amateur video showed that plane flying low across the freeway en route to its explosive destination. I watched as the towers came tumbling down, heart in throat and knowing deep in my soul that the world had lost every last vestige of innocence it had retained up to that horrible point in time.

I watched as further reports emerged that a fourth aircraft had crashed into rural countryside, after seemingly being engaged in a similar attack upon a target which could only have been the White House.

The Anti-Bush X-Files generation can argue after the fact all they like. Won't change what I saw in the slightest. I'm not particularly enamoured of Bush either. Doesn't mean I have to go to ridiculous extents about it though.

1. The Pentagon stuff is complete and utter shit. Neither you, me nor anyone else was ever gonna get access to 'evidence' from the Pentagon. It's the Pentagon! I can accept that.

Even if you're sucked in by stories that it wasn't a jet airliner that hit the Pentagon, why is it a somehow natural conclusion that it was self-engineered by the American authorities? (Stories that a lack of skid marks and scorched lawns don't do anything for me. They only show that a plane didn't skid into the building.) You can't deny that jet airliners flew into the World Trade Center. You saw that clearly. Were the military defenses penetrated and a missile or somesuch hit the Pentagon you'd expect nothing BUT a quick cover up to downplay the inadequacy of defenses.

2. Having two passenger airlines fly into adjacent towers, fully laden with fuel, was an unprecedented act which led to unprecedented results. It's as simple as that. The collapse of the buildings has been fully and adequately explained. The 'fact' of subsequent explosions should be no surprise. They're big buildings and they were big fires. It's only to be expected that other shit is gonna go "BANG" during the burning.

When buildings are imploded to level them the controlled explosions happen at the bottom of the building. You saw how they fell. The bottom structure was intact until the top shit fell on it. The top section of the building fell down through it and levelled the lower floors as it fell on them. So what if it hadn't happened before? That only means that it's the first time it ever happened. Doesn't mean that it was impossible for what you saw occur to have happened. It was a freakish set of circumstances with an horrendously tragic result. Get real!

That a third building also collapsed from fire should be no surprise either. The bulk of the city's firefighting defenses was underneath the first two collapsed buildings, for goodness sake!


If you ignore every possibility until you have conclusive proof then yes, you are close-minded. But if you see an assemblage of comments taken out of context, misreported 'evidence' and a presentation which relies upon innuendo, and then consider that to be 'proof' then you are, perhaps, a fool.

As said above, the stuff about the Pentagon is shit. It's one of the most sensitive targets in the entire world, for goodness sake. Of course ranks are gonna be closed when something untoward happens. Of course the demands of the public to have detailed information made available aren't going to be met. It was ridiculous to ask in the first place! The 'failure' to provide explanations doesn't indicate a 'cover-up'. It merely shows that unanswerable questions were asked. Questioning what's presented to you is an admirable practice. Considering that you've disproven an 'official story' by asking questions which weren't answered isn't. all you've done in such a circumstance is provided innuendo, and innuendo doesn't convince any but the most gullible of audiences!

Oh, I haven't failed to look at the other 'evidence'. It's simply that none of it whatsoever has convinced me of anything other than that a detailed explanation of the precise sequence of events hasn't been developed and probably never will.

I'm simply not accepting that such 'evidence' in any way contradicts the contention that "terrorists did it", especiually seeing that the "terrorists" admitted responsibility anyway! And the "Nay" theories rely upon the assumption that the central supportive core remianed intact when, in fact, it's quite likely that it didn't. Once weakened on the floors where the fire occurred the weight of the top section and then the subsequent weight of the collapsing sections could indeed have caused the sections of columns below to progressively collapse.

It's a thin argument against to suggest that it couldn't have happened because it hadn't happened anywhere else. There's no prior examples of fully laden planes flying full tilt into building like that. Of course it's likely to set precedents. I also belive something happened that day, which was that about 18 muslim terrorists hijacked 4 commercial airplanes, crashed 2 in the world trade centers, one into the pentagon, and the last was either shot down by the US Air Force or crashed after losing control, possibly because of passenger intervention (either way, the result was the same, and not any evidence of a "conspiracy", a cover-up perhaps, but generally it has no bearing on the event as a whole), killing alot of people, and causing catastrophic damage to both WTC towers, secondary damage which ended up causing the collapse of WTC7, and also massive damage to the pentagon area it hit.

Those are facts.

[bigdog]

Well said.

[Zandoz]

I'd like to add a couple things to what our Australian put so well............

In addition to what we saw happen to the towers, from from different angles and sources, there is one big point that seals the deal...OBL and his minions have admitted their hand in what happened. If they indeed had not been responsible, trumpeting that fact and outing the conspiracy would have done more to further their cause than anything they could have in their wildest dreams hoped to accomplished on the course they've taken. Showing they'd not had a hand in it would not only have brought down the Bush administration, but would have been the greatest PR coup ever in promoting the very view they have of us...evil infidels.

On the other hand, accepting that the deeds were indeed done by OBL and minions does not preclude others from taking advantage of the situation they created. Actually, given the history of misdeeds done by the "It's just business" absolves all wrong set, I'd be very surprised if there were no efforts to exploit the situation for profit or ass covering...at the towers site or elsewhere. We know Bush and the gang that can't shoot straight used the situation for justification of their shenanigans in Iraq.

[isotope]

In an interview in a jail cell with Hermann Gorig, Nazi founder of the Gestapo at the Nuremberg Trials.

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

I believe in looking at things in all perspectives. Which leads me to question the 9/11 attacks. Just as i question these craaaazy theories. Both deserve the same amount of time researching.

As much as i'd like to see a concrete answer either way, i know there'll never be one. For every 'mainstream' theory, there's a conspiracy that pokes holes in it. For every conspiracy, there's a theory that pokes holes in it. For every the..oh bother.

Aint that right JFK?



PS,
Australian Lord mentioned how the Government wouldnt kill thousands of it's own people. However, last i checked in the south, it doesnt have a problem leaving them for dead.

[Burtimus]

I find it very hard to believe that any administration who is so inept at a war they started on their own terms could also be so devious, so Machiavellian to plan something as horrific and intricate as what happened to us five years ago.

I cannot subscribe to the theory of a plot.

That being said... I find it deplorable and more cynical than I can grasp that this administration would use these events to launch their political agenda. Putting America into a series of wars which history tells us are unwinnable.

That, to me, is the true conspiracy, and the real tragedy of the 9/11 attacks.

[Seth Warren]

Speaking of debunking conspiracy theories, the editor for Popular Mechanics wrote an article for the New York Post about how the facts have been manipulated to make some conspiracy theories seem plausible. An interesting read.

[EvaDestruction]

everyone will have their opinions. no one will ever agree. especially right here, me and you.

i just find it impossible to believe that the towers fell in the manner in which they did.

they were built to take a 747 crashing into them. enormous buildings like that need to be. yet they all fell, including the 7th by the lease-owner by his own admission, all were right within themselves.
the man who owns all of the world trade buildings 'decided to "pull" the 7th' one. they demolished it. yet the one they purposely raized to the ground crumbled exactly like the two towers that are incredibly, incredinly bigger in size? no toppling over. straight down. so odd to me. thats all i can say, i dunno. continue to rampage over it, but it makes more sense to see such things happen, in plain day, in front of me, than to just 'accept' that a bunch of "crazy, radical muslims" hijacked more than a few of our planes on a day they somehow knew wargame exercises were going on, only to crash them where they did, mysteriously crumbled in the manner in which they did, leaving behind what they did, and yet... thats just it? thats the answer? terrorists? possibly, but perhaps not iraqi ones.

might as well get back ito believing in the tooth fairy.

[1300 Class]

i just find it impossible to believe that the towers fell in the manner in which they did.

If you want to ignore fact and live in some deluded fantasy world, thats perfectly fine by me.

[Mini]

Originally Posted by EvaDestruction

everyone will have their opinions. no one will ever agree. especially right here, me and you.

i just find it impossible to believe that the towers fell in the manner in which they did.

Unless you're both a physics major and a structural engineer, your opinion on the matter is utterly irrelevant.

[EvaDestruction]

Originally Posted by Australian Lord

If you want to ignore fact and live in some deluded fantasy world, thats perfectly fine by me.

exactly my point.

im glad we agree on something.

[1300 Class]

Always like to end a discussion in agreement.

[FitChick]

When I first saw the title of this topic, I was confused...you cannot raise what has been destroyed.

Then I realized you mean RAZE, not raize/raise. Sorry!

[NYEmtEsq]

Originally Posted by EvaDestruction

everyone will have their opinions. no one will ever agree. especially right here, me and you.

i just find it impossible to believe that the towers fell in the manner in which they did.

they were built to take a 747 crashing into them. enormous buildings like that need to be. yet they all fell, including the 7th by the lease-owner by his own admission, all were right within themselves.
the man who owns all of the world trade buildings 'decided to "pull" the 7th' one. they demolished it. yet the one they purposely raized to the ground crumbled exactly like the two towers that are incredibly, incredinly bigger in size? no toppling over. straight down. so odd to me. thats all i can say, i dunno. continue to rampage over it, but it makes more sense to see such things happen, in plain day, in front of me, than to just 'accept' that a bunch of "crazy, radical muslims" hijacked more than a few of our planes on a day they somehow knew wargame exercises were going on, only to crash them where they did, mysteriously crumbled in the manner in which they did, leaving behind what they did, and yet... thats just it? thats the answer? terrorists? possibly, but perhaps not iraqi ones.

might as well get back ito believing in the tooth fairy.

I didn't respond to your first post because any response would have certainly been deleted as a personal attack. As to your post above, similar to another deluded pro-conspiracy post made in another thread, I will respond with the facts, as they unfolded that day:

1: The WTC Towers were NOT meant to absorb the high speed impact of a jumbo jet such as a 747, but rather were designed to absorb a low speed impact of a 707 which strayed from its landing/take-off pattern from JFK airport. Notwithstanding, the BOTH WTC Towers DID absorb the impacts of two high speed jumbo jets, and managed to stand for a significant length of time before their structure melted due to fire. This delay enabled first responders to mount the greatest rescue mission in human history, saving nearly 30,000 lives. My sincere thanks go out to the late Minoru Yamasaki, WTC Architect.

2: As to your surprise that none of the buildings toppled like trees, expand your mind to realize that these buildings were designed as tubes within tubes (so as to maximize floor space without support columns). Once the inner tube began its telescopic collapse, the outer tube was drawn down and into the inner tube.

3: Also, remember that Two was hit lower than One, and it was hit on the side. (I guess Atta was a better pilot than Al-Shehhi, may they both rot in hell). If you remember seeing the footage from the collapse of Two, you will notice that the top 30 floors of the building DID cantilever, as if a tree, until the inner tube began to collapse under the weight of the top 30 floors and began telescoping inward.

4: Larry Silverstein did not own any of the buildings numbered One through Six World Trade Center (he did own Seven). Rather, he took possession of them as property manager/site lessee pursuant to an agreement with the Port Authority of NY/NJ, which has owned the site since it condemned Radio Row. As such, his financial benefit in the site is overstated, as the prime lease with the PA REQUIRES him to rebuild with that money.

5: Yes, Larry is quoted as saying to "pull" Seven, and as someone who was there, I recall the warning that Seven was "coming down," and to get the hell away from there. The command to "pull" the building (which came around 2:00 p.m.) was to pull people such as I from making further attempts to save lives or property (such as the building itself) in that area, so that there would not be any additional casualties if (or when) the building collapsed, which it did 3 hours later.

6: Seven suffered the same fate as One and Two for the same reason: explosive fuel was ignited and the building melted from within. While the world saw the fuel enter One and Two and ignite upon the crash of Flights 11 and 175, nobody saw that the City of New York placed a similar quantity of fuel into Seven so as to run the generators for its OEM bunker contained therein. This fuel was ignited when One collapsed and flaming debris entered Seven, thus ensuring that it would eventually suffer the same fate.

I doubt that this will change your mind about anything, so just get back to sparkin' up and believing in the tooth fairy. As far as me, I will continue to believe that there are savages in this world who wish me dead for doing nothing more than failing to worship their version of god, and I will continue to hate such savages with all of my being.

[missaf]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NYEmtEsq again.

[Wagimawr]

Originally Posted by missaf

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NYEmtEsq again.

Repped you so I could rep him.