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Old 11-10-2016, 03:38 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by rellis10 View Post
Well you guys just elected a man under investigation for sexual assault and child rape into the White House.

I have friends in America who are of ethnic minorities and different religions concerned about segregation, LBGTQ who are genuinely scared this has empowered physical and psychological hate-crimes against them, and on or below the poverty line who may not have the ability to keep themselves and their family in their homes because of welfare cuts.

The choice that has happened may be an anti-establishment uprising but make no mistake, Trump is just part of another establishment and won't make working-class lives better. He serves the same big business interests as anyone before him. Big Pharma, Wall Street, private investment, hell the military is it's own business and that's not even considering the conflict of interest with his own businesses.

So to the people who voted for him, good luck distracting yourselves with your wall and ignoring you just added 'potential sex-criminal', 'racist' and 'misogynist' to the list of problems you already had that won't be remedied.

But at least you're 'making America great again'...
Reminds me of this comment I saw, and expect to get a lot of use from:

"Well, you certainly voted your values, didn't you?"
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Old 11-10-2016, 04:06 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by biodieselman View Post
"Well, that sucks"????

You must live in that 'alternate universe' our resident racist constantly bleats about.

The American people wrested power from the elitist self serving establishment snobs and their abject corruption.
Self-serving?! You supported Donald Trump. This is a guy who's proud of having stiffed creditors through bankruptcy!
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Now it's time to drain the swamp!!
Your idea of draining the swamp of Washington corruption was to re-elect sold-out establishment Republicans -- and a shameless self-promoter.

Sure, they'll get their Republican pro-big-business, reverse-Robin-Hood economic agenda on. They might hand you, personally, some token tax cut. You'll take that and be grateful, because that's only the pretext. What they'll give you that you really wanted is permission to not have to be decent.

That's what Republicans sell, and you bought it. Apparently a lot of people did.

Congratulations, I suppose.
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Old 11-10-2016, 04:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by snuggletiger View Post
Do you think Obama on the trail with the ACA getting more expensive; Helped or hurt Hillary? I think Obama got overused on the trail. It seemed like she expected him to do most of the campaigning and so the office of POTUS seemed to overshadow her message.
Undoubtedly helped. He's the most popular figure out there right now of either party.
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Old 11-10-2016, 04:18 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
Yes, sitting safely on the west side of the mountains I too am unlikely to suffer directly from this disaster. Ironically its working class white folks -- i.e. the people who voted for Trump -- who are going to suffer the most.
Two points: First, it appears that Trump got a standard cross-section of Republican voters for the most part. Second, they're not going to suffer the most (though I concur that they will suffer); I expect that minorities, women, and nonconformists will bear the brunt of the new Administration's policies. Which for at least some of these voters was the point.

The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of who will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it.” - Davis X. Machina
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Old 11-10-2016, 10:21 AM   #30
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My wife has been crying for the past couple days. I'm trying to stay strong for her but I feel like crying too. Most of my friends and family are either angry or terrified.

Nearly everyone I know is either a POC, on the LGBT spectrum, disabled, or multiples of the above. We all stand to lose big under Trump, and he and his supporters have made it clear that we're going to.

If I don't survive the next four years, it's been nice knowing you. Except bio and deli who can... ehhh I don't need to get a second account infraction-banned that bad.
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Old 11-10-2016, 01:36 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by CleverBomb View Post
Something worth noting: The only states Clinton lost that Obama won in 2012 were those that had enacted strict Voter ID laws in the wake of the Shelby County decision. In those states, she did not get Obama-level minority turnout. Trump got Romney-level turnout in those states.

It wasn't unpopularity (she did, after all, win the popular vote), it was at least in part voter suppression in key states. There's your disenfranchisement.

This is also relevant to this comment as well:

Some weren't sluggards, but got caged, dropped from automatic absentee-ballot lists, or (properly and in some cases improperly) asked for ID they didn't have or couldn't get.

The problem with Sanders is that he wasn't seriously vetted during the primaries (we still haven't seen his tax returns, for example). He would have been wide open to attacks that weren't made during the primaries both because Clinton would need his voters and because they weren't useful or relevant within the context of a primary contest.
Honestly, due to the makeup of the populace and where they are congregated I don't see anyone but a Democrat winning the popular vote for some time to come. She won the areas that will always vote that way even if Satan hisself had the nomination but in the areas that can go either way she didn't fare so well and even lost some she should have retained.
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Old 11-10-2016, 02:02 PM   #32
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Trump got about a million less votes than Romney did in 2012. Clinton got about six million fewer votes than Obama did in 2012. It seems that she really failed to inspire a lot of the people who had voted Obama. The email thing no doubt did not help, nor the fact that some were probably afraid that Trump supporters would harass them, but ultimately I think a lot of people will vote for someone who they feel gets them and their issues, whether or not the candidates policies actually will help them, and I don’t think enough people could relate to her, nor feel that she would relate to them. Perhaps too brainy, too privileged, too political, too old, too white, … just too many factors distancing her from what she needed to be her base.

And sadly, the democrats don’t have a lot of obvious candidates to do a better job next time. Hopefully there will be some surprises, but with Republicans holding majorities in both houses and the majority of state governorships, it feels to me that the Democratic leadership has been getting old, without enough new talent having a chance to really show what it can do. Apparently there are some great democratic mayors, but that is not a very strong starting point for a presidential bid.
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Old 11-10-2016, 07:13 PM   #33
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I'm sorry Greenie but I'm going to have to take issue with this. From the very beginning we were all taught to vote our conscience and for the candidate or party that most closely shares your political ideals. Well, as a longtime supporter of the Libertarian party I did just that. I voted for the candidate that best represented me and while it's not 100% agreement on every issue it's a damn sight closer than either of the other candidates. I also don't feel that my vote was "wasted" because I hold hope that if enough people turn out and vote Libertarian they will eventually get a large enough percentage to break through and get a more equal seat at the table in future elections.
Love you Leo- but I see any vote that took away from the Dems as a vote for Trump. I can see why someone would want to vote for someone besides Hilary and Trump...I truly can and would also love to see us having more choices.
However, when I can see Hilary losing by margins that were due to the Libertarian votes...and thus handing the election to the biggest buffoon imaginable- it irks me. (Not mad at you or your choices but more the situation).
I found it scary when W got in office...with part of that being due to Nader snatching votes (when he was urged by Michael Moore to encourage his supporters to vote for Gore).
THIS is worse....much more so. Gawd a guy that pervs on his own daughter? One I don't trust with all the power just handed to him?
This was an uber important election. It was about protecting the country from an obvious moron that will run us aground....and do so quickly.
It's about more than conscience for me.....it's about stopping a real nut from getting the wheel.
Glad you voted the way you want...you have every right to. It's one of the things that make this country great. But the damage will be undeniable.
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:18 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by LeoGibson View Post
Honestly, due to the makeup of the populace and where they are congregated I don't see anyone but a Democrat winning the popular vote for some time to come. She won the areas that will always vote that way even if Satan hisself had the nomination but in the areas that can go either way she didn't fare so well and even lost some she should have retained.
(bold added)

This is why voter protection (challenging voting rights violations in court, seeking out disenfranchised voters and getting them the required documentation, and so on) is critical.

Democrats had no better candidate available than the one they put forward. Period.
They had a solidly liberal platform with detailed policies. Those never came up for discussion in the media or debates, because the only things the click-hungry media wanted to cover were EMAILS! and whatever outrageous thing Trump happened to say that week.

And by contrast, Trump was allowed to skate on the details of any policy proposals he made -- even when they flatly contradicted what he'd said previously. He was covered as though he were a Reality TV star, not a Presidential candidate.
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:27 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by CleverBomb View Post
Two points: First, it appears that Trump got a standard cross-section of Republican voters for the most part. Second, they're not going to suffer the most (though I concur that they will suffer); I expect that minorities, women, and nonconformists will bear the brunt of the new Administration's policies. Which for at least some of these voters was the point.
On the contrary, President Trump will be the best president for minorities, women and everyone else since George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan. Like all these other successful presidents taxes will be cut, regulations lessened and government spending will be cut. The economy will start to really grow and not the anemic 2% of Obamanomics, but real growth of 4 or 5 percent.

This will mean more jobs and higher incomes for everyone.

This mean the disastrous economic policies of Barack Obama will be studied by economist and policy wonks as an example what should not be done.
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:59 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post
On the contrary, President Trump will be the best president for minorities, women and everyone else since George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan. Like all these other successful presidents taxes will be cut, regulations lessened and government spending will be cut. The economy will start to really grow and not the anemic 2% of Obamanomics, but real growth of 4 or 5 percent.

This will mean more jobs and higher incomes for everyone.

This mean the disastrous economic policies of Barack Obama will be studied by economist and policy wonks as an example what should not be done.
Same GOP talking points as ever, with complete disregard for the agenda Trump promised (mass deportations at a pace certain to accidentally sweep up American citizens,
police harassment of minorities, social harassment of the gender-nonconforming, and so on...)

The economic policy math never added up and still doesn't, and the policies themselves blew up in 2008 (and took down the global economy as well).

We're overdue for a recession; the only reason we haven't had one yet is that the slow-and-steady growth of the past 8 years hasn't included bubbles that could burst. That's over now, apparently. The only question is the timing.

My guess is that it'll be triggered by a diplomatic misstep (or even a new war) in the Middle East causing a spike in oil prices.
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Old 11-10-2016, 09:44 PM   #37
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Same GOP talking points as ever, with complete disregard for the agenda Trump promised (mass deportations at a pace certain to accidentally sweep up American citizens,police harassment of minorities, social harassment of the gender-nonconforming, and so on...)
The last president with that type of power was FDR. During a World War he ordered thousands of Japanese-American citizens to held in detention facilities with out charge or due process.

That is why it will never happen today. Every single person that is to be deported is entitled to a hearing before a judge with a lawyer present to represent their interests. Further, the suggestion that US citizens will be “accidentally” deported is laughably stupid.

Further, are you really suggesting that Donald Trump will order local police departments to discriminate against minorities?
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The economic policy math never added up and still doesn't, and the policies themselves blew up in 2008 (and took down the global economy as well).
This nonsense was the same BS pushed by Hillary Clinton in the second debate where she claimed the 2007 recession was caused by the Bush tax cuts.

(It wasn't; it was caused by the mortgage industry collapse. Which was caused by the Community Re-investment Act.)

Actually, I have suggested many times in the past that people that believe this fantasy explain how a tax cut causes a recession. The answer is it doesn't. (This is just a example of “Bush Derangement syndrome.” )
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We're overdue for a recession; the only reason we haven't had one yet is that the slow-and-steady growth of the past 8 years hasn't included bubbles that could burst. That's over now, apparently. The only question is the timing.
Actually, while on paper we came out of the recession in 2010. Most people don't “feel” that way. Slow growth is like a slow death. How many people have been hurt waiting for the recovery.
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My guess is that it'll be triggered by a diplomatic misstep (or even a new war) in the Middle East causing a spike in oil prices.
Just who has been president for the last eight years?
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Old 11-10-2016, 09:54 PM   #38
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On the contrary, President Trump will be the best president for minorities, women and everyone else since George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan. Like all these other successful presidents taxes will be cut, regulations lessened and government spending will be cut. The economy will start to really grow and not the anemic 2% of Obamanomics, but real growth of 4 or 5 percent.

This will mean more jobs and higher incomes for everyone.

This mean the disastrous economic policies of Barack Obama will be studied by economist and policy wonks as an example what should not be done.
Yawn!!!!!!!!!.....................
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Old 11-11-2016, 02:37 AM   #39
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The last president with that type of power was FDR. During a World War he ordered thousands of Japanese-American citizens to held in detention facilities with out charge or due process.

That is why it will never happen today. Every single person that is to be deported is entitled to a hearing before a judge with a lawyer present to represent their interests. Further, the suggestion that US citizens will be “accidentally” deported is laughably stupid.
Prove you're a citizen if you don't have ID on your person. You personally could talk your way out of it since you don't look like a typical immigrant; others might not. Keep in mind the scale of the proposed deportation scheme, and how fast the process would need to be to accomplish it in a reasonable length of time. Now consider how overworked public defenders are in general, and apply that to the hurried process.

Not laughable at all. It's happened.
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Further, are you really suggesting that Donald Trump will order local police departments to discriminate against minorities?
"Stop and Frisk" policies.
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This nonsense was the same BS pushed by Hillary Clinton in the second debate where she claimed the 2007 recession was caused by the Bush tax cuts.

(It wasn't; it was caused by the mortgage industry collapse. Which was caused by the Community Re-investment Act.)
No, it wasn't. CRA loans defaulted significantly less frequently than comparable free-market loans. And issuing liar-loans wasn't mandatory (as you've suggested previously), they could be refused for legitimate financial reasons -- but that would have meant extra paperwork and less profit. The cause was rampant and inadequately insured speculation in mortgage-backed securities creating an irrational and unsustainable demand for mortgages -- leading to reckless lending and a bubble in the housing market. And the Bush Jr. administration looked the other way because of that saying about gift horses.
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Actually, I have suggested many times in the past that people that believe this fantasy explain how a tax cut causes a recession. The answer is it doesn't. (This is just a example of “Bush Derangement syndrome.” )
Easy. Oversupply of capital yields too much money chasing investments, leading to unsustainable securities and commodities market overvaluation. Meanwhile, concentration of capital (because tax cuts predominately benefit the already wealthy rather than the masses) results in insufficient mass-market demand to support the overvalued markets, which then correct with unpleasant consequences.
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Actually, while on paper we came out of the recession in 2010. Most people don't “feel” that way. Slow growth is like a slow death.
Nope. Slow growth is like slow recovery from a near-fatal illness.
Quote:
How many people have been hurt waiting for the recovery.
The larger issue is the middle-class wealth destruction from the crash. Even if you're making more now than you did before then, you're still having to make up for what you lost. And how many were financially devastated by the crash itself?
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Just who has been president for the last eight years?
Interestingly, private sector employment has been roughly on par with similar recoveries. What's missing this time is government employment -- and that's a product of Republican obstruction.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:09 AM   #40
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On the contrary, President Trump will be the best president for minorities, women and everyone else since George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan.
In the two days since the election ended:

*The Ku Klux Klan marched in a town less than a half-hour east of me
*My friend's adopted children have been unable to sleep because classmates have told them they will "be sent back to Africa"
*I saw a video of a white college student grabbing a black classmate by the arms and forcing him out the door of the classroom, saying, "You don't belong here, n**, you need to go pick cotton"
*I have seen graffiti that said "Make America white again" with a swastika
*Two college students shared a photo of them posing in blackface
*A friend reports that her son's Latino classmates are being met with chants of "Wall! Wall! Wall!" and told "Won't be long now, you have to go back to Mexico"
*Muslim women are being told "Take that scarf off your head and put it around your neck and hang yourself with it."
*An Asian woman was physically and verbally assaulted by a man who told her he could do whatever he wanted with her
*My gay child and her classmates are being teased and harassed at school
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Old 11-11-2016, 07:36 AM   #41
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Something like eight trans kids committed suicide after the results came in Tuesday night.
My wife was up all night crying. This is going to devastate the LGBT community.
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Old 11-11-2016, 08:30 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Leishycat View Post
Something like eight trans kids committed suicide after the results came in Tuesday night.
My wife was up all night crying. This is going to devastate the LGBT community.
Anytime that anyone takes their own life for whatever reason is a tragedy. Yet, Donald Trump has not even been sworn into office yet. This was done out of fear.

Second, you write “Something like eight trans kids ...” Don't you know how many? Don't you care? Or, are these deaths just pawns in your hatred of Donald Trump?

[this post has been modslapped.]
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Old 11-11-2016, 08:47 AM   #43
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In the two days since the election ended:

*The Ku Klux Klan marched in a town less than a half-hour east of me
*My friend's adopted children have been unable to sleep because classmates have told them they will "be sent back to Africa"
*I saw a video of a white college student grabbing a black classmate by the arms and forcing him out the door of the classroom, saying, "You don't belong here, n**, you need to go pick cotton"
*I have seen graffiti that said "Make America white again" with a swastika
*Two college students shared a photo of them posing in blackface
*A friend reports that her son's Latino classmates are being met with chants of "Wall! Wall! Wall!" and told "Won't be long now, you have to go back to Mexico"
*Muslim women are being told "Take that scarf off your head and put it around your neck and hang yourself with it."
*An Asian woman was physically and verbally assaulted by a man who told her he could do whatever he wanted with her
*My gay child and her classmates are being teased and harassed at school
It is amusing how you blame the policies and actions of the Trump Administration for all of these horrible examples. The problem is there is no Trump Administration as of yet.

For example, you imply that Donald Trump is somehow responsible for this march by the KKK? Yet, on many occasions Trump has denounced the KKK and the racist ideas they represent. Second, how many members of the KKK actually marched and how many counter-marchers were there?

As to you child. That is just wrong, but to blame Donald Trump is just silly. Presidents just don't have that power. You and your child's classmates parents need to talk with the principle of their school or the school board.
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Old 11-11-2016, 08:58 AM   #44
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Those who voted Libertarian did not help get Trump elected.

If you follow any of the Libertarian pages on Facebook, the attitude is generally that Trump is awful but Clinton is the anti-Christ. If anything, the Libertarians siphoned off more potential Trump votes than potential Clinton votes.
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Old 11-11-2016, 09:03 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Big Beautiful Dreamer View Post
In the two days since the election ended:

*The Ku Klux Klan marched in a town less than a half-hour east of me
*My friend's adopted children have been unable to sleep because classmates have told them they will "be sent back to Africa"
*I saw a video of a white college student grabbing a black classmate by the arms and forcing him out the door of the classroom, saying, "You don't belong here, n**, you need to go pick cotton"
*I have seen graffiti that said "Make America white again" with a swastika
*Two college students shared a photo of them posing in blackface
*A friend reports that her son's Latino classmates are being met with chants of "Wall! Wall! Wall!" and told "Won't be long now, you have to go back to Mexico"
*Muslim women are being told "Take that scarf off your head and put it around your neck and hang yourself with it."
*An Asian woman was physically and verbally assaulted by a man who told her he could do whatever he wanted with her
*My gay child and her classmates are being teased and harassed at school
Hateful people have always been out there. Unfortunately they've now been given permission to be open about it.

My little brown skinned daughter crawled into bed with me last night. She's oblivious, and since we live in a State where haters still have to tread carefully, hopefully she'll stay that way. I, however, realize that her world just got a little smaller and more dangerous, and her life prospects just decreased. Incredibly sad.
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Old 11-11-2016, 09:28 AM   #46
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Its Veterans Day. I wonder if all the people hating on black and brown folks realize that fully one third of our country's soldiers and sailors are minorities.
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Old 11-11-2016, 10:03 AM   #47
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Prove you're a citizen if you don't have ID on your person. You personally could talk your way out of it since you don't look like a typical immigrant; others might not. Keep in mind the scale of the proposed deportation scheme, and how fast the process would need to be to accomplish it in a reasonable length of time. Now consider how overworked public defenders are in general, and apply that to the hurried process.

Not laughable at all. It's happened."
No, that is so silly … Assume for the moment that my wallet and my driver's license and other ID were stolen or lost and a policeman accused me of being a Canadian here in the US illegally. The problem with that half logic is the federal government requires all driver's licenses to be a photo license. My image is not just on the license, but also stored on the DMV's data base. Along with other biographical data like my address. A policeman can access that information from the computer in his patrol vehicle.

Speed? There are people that murder others in open and shut cases. They are sentenced to death, but it can be years or decades before that sentence is carried out. That is called due process.

To suggest the Trump Administration will round up whole neighborhoods of people here illegally and bus them to the border without a hearing is beyond stupid
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Stop and Frisk" policies.
You do understand that “Stop and Frisk” is a local policy? There are many steps required before a Trump Administration could make it a mandatory federal policy for all local police departments.
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No, it wasn't. CRA loans defaulted significantly less frequently than comparable free-market loans. And issuing liar-loans wasn't mandatory (as you've suggested previously), they could be refused for legitimate financial reasons -- but that would have meant extra paperwork and less profit. The cause was rampant and inadequately insured speculation in mortgage-backed securities creating an irrational and unsustainable demand for mortgages -- leading to reckless lending and a bubble in the housing market. And the Bush Jr. administration looked the other way because of that saying about gift horses. Easy.
No, that is not correct at all. Remember, I posted all those videos of Bush Administration officials warning about a collapse of the mortgage market. Remember, I posted videos of people like former Congressman Barney Frank saying there was no danger in the housing market because Franny and Freddie Mac would prevent it. Remember, videos of Maxine Walters, a Congresswoman, that claimed the only reason the Bush Administration charged the head of Freddy Mac with embezzlement was he was African-American.

Remember, I used to work at a mortgage company. I was originally hired as a temp along along with others. Our job was to review old loan applications and create a data-base based on race and sex of people that got loans. The company needed this information so the could prove to federal officials the company was not discriminating based on race or sex in violation of the CRA.
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Oversupply of capital yields too much money chasing investments, leading to unsustainable securities and commodities market overvaluation. Meanwhile, concentration of capital (because tax cuts predominately benefit the already wealthy rather than the masses) results in insufficient mass-market demand to support the overvalued markets, which then correct with unpleasant consequences.
Then by that silly logic we should be in a Depression. Unless you don't think the rich have not gotten richer in the eight years of the Obama Administration?

Second, just what do you think economic growth means? It means people willing to invest their money in new business and expand old ones. It means the hiring of new workers. Yet, you describe that is a bad thing.
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Nope. Slow growth is like slow recovery from a near-fatal illness.
No, slow growth is a fatal disease.
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Originally Posted by CleverBomb View Post
The larger issue is the middle-class wealth destruction from the crash. Even if you're making more now than you did before then, you're still having to make up for what you lost. And how many were financially devastated by the crash itself?
As stated above the crash was caused by the silly economic policies of liberals. Only real growth in the economy will fix that.
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Interestingly, private sector employment has been roughly on par with similar recoveries. What's missing this time is government employment -- and that's a product of Republican obstruction.
Then why are their millions of people that the government no longer counts as unemployed?
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Old 11-11-2016, 10:08 AM   #48
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Its Veterans Day. I wonder if all the people hating on black and brown folks realize that fully one third of our country's soldiers and sailors are minorities.
The only people that care about that are racist. Just as only sexist care that woman serve as well.

Frankly, they all deserve the thanks of a grateful nation.
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Old 11-11-2016, 10:16 AM   #49
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Anytime that anyone takes their own life for whatever reason is a tragedy. Yet, Donald Trump has not even been sworn into office yet. This was done out of fear.

Second, you write “Something like eight trans kids ...” Don't you know how many? Don't you care? Or, are these deaths just pawns in your hatred of Donald Trump?
What the FUCK is wrong with you? Of course I care. These are my people. My brothers and sisters. I don't know the exact number because only two of them have been reported on. News organizations are notorious for misgendering us in reporting our deaths. This is information I've gotten third party.
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Old 11-11-2016, 10:19 AM   #50
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Its Veterans Day. I wonder if all the people hating on black and brown folks realize that fully one third of our country's soldiers and sailors are minorities.
A bit of introspection might be in order here. The election wasn't lost because all of Trump's supporters are racists. The election was lost because the Democratic party nominated a career politician with a ton of personal baggage and zero charisma in an election cycle when both ends of the political spectrum were fed up with politics as usual.

I would have voted for Bernie but the elites of the anti-Democratic party anointed their preferred candidate. The Republican elite lost their battle against Trump and won the presidency becasue of it. This is a wake-up call to both parties.
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