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View Poll Results: Do you want a new political board?
Yes 20 62.50%
No 12 37.50%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-02-2016, 03:13 PM   #26
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I am honestly surprised that people expected the moderator of HP not to take part in conversation.

The moderators on every other board take part in the conversations.

The moderators have in fact been chosen in part for their participation in the community.

Although he didn’t post often, Conrad did post in a variety of boards at times, so in fact it has always been the case that moderators were involved in the conversation.

So when did it become unacceptable for the moderator of HP to take part in the discussion? And who decided, and how was this communicated?

Personally I find the idea of such a separation rather depressing, because to me it presupposes that the point of the board is rather to run like a chess match or a football game or a court room, where there are clearly defined opponents who can be expected to push the rules to the limits and beyond in search of an advantage in their quest to dominate, and that therefore there needs to be a neutral referee or judge whose job is strictly limited to enforcing those rules.

As opposed to looking at it as, for example, a discussion with a moderator who tries to keep things interesting and tries to keep things on the rails.

I do realize that the state of American politics has become highly polarized, and that some of the most frequent posters seemed to be more of the point scoring persuasion, but nowhere did I ever see anything suggesting that HP was intended purely for partisan bickering about American politics, and I certainly hope that the (possible) future board won’t be seen as limited in that regard, either.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

All of the preceding is my opinion only. I don’t claim to speak for the moderating team as a whole, or for anyone other than myself, when I express the above opinions.

I’m happy to hear counter-points to this, although if the counter point is “bickering between Deli, Bio, Mac, and a couple of others was just a point scoring exercise, and it should have been obvious to you all, and should have been treated that way.” Then please go on to expand on why you think that the moderators should not have tried to make the board about more than that?

And finally: yes, I recognize that I may lack a certain expected level of cynicism about human nature, and may even be something resembling an optimist. No need to point that out, just try to persuade me why in this case optimism isn't warranted and cynicism is.
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:21 PM   #27
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Yeah, the expectation for BBD not to take part has rubbed me the wrong way as well.

That was primarily put forth by trolls who saw her attempts to rein them in as being politically biased.

Personally I don't really give a fuck what trolls think.

*shrug*
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad View Post
I am honestly surprised that people expected the moderator of HP not to take part in conversation.

The moderators on every other board take part in the conversations.

The moderators have in fact been chosen in part for their participation in the community.

Although he didn’t post often, Conrad did post in a variety of boards at times, so in fact it has always been the case that moderators were involved in the conversation.

So when did it become unacceptable for the moderator of HP to take part in the discussion? And who decided, and how was this communicated?

Personally I find the idea of such a separation rather depressing, because to me it presupposes that the point of the board is rather to run like a chess match or a football game or a court room, where there are clearly defined opponents who can be expected to push the rules to the limits and beyond in search of an advantage in their quest to dominate, and that therefore there needs to be a neutral referee or judge whose job is strictly limited to enforcing those rules.

As opposed to looking at it as, for example, a discussion with a moderator who tries to keep things interesting and tries to keep things on the rails.

I do realize that the state of American politics has become highly polarized, and that some of the most frequent posters seemed to be more of the point scoring persuasion, but nowhere did I ever see anything suggesting that HP was intended purely for partisan bickering about American politics, and I certainly hope that the (possible) future board won’t be seen as limited in that regard, either.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

All of the preceding is my opinion only. I don’t claim to speak for the moderating team as a whole, or for anyone other than myself, when I express the above opinions.

I’m happy to hear counter-points to this, although if the counter point is “bickering between Deli, Bio, Mac, and a couple of others was just a point scoring exercise, and it should have been obvious to you all, and should have been treated that way.” Then please go on to expand on why you think that the moderators should not have tried to make the board about more than that?

And finally: yes, I recognize that I may lack a certain expected level of cynicism about human nature, and may even be something resembling an optimist. No need to point that out, just try to persuade me why in this case optimism isn't warranted and cynicism is.
I like BBD, but I think she needs someone else as a permanent co-mod and she should be allowed to participate; I think she IS heavier handed with the liberals in an attempt not to appear biased, but that let the ring wing get away with more.
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:43 PM   #29
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interesting in that the poll results to this point is almost a 50-50 split... and could easily go one way or another... we shall see as the days progress....
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:46 PM   #30
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Remember if I don't win it's rigged folks... it's rigged. She lies!
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:50 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad View Post
I am honestly surprised that people expected the moderator of HP not to take part in conversation.

The moderators on every other board take part in the conversations.

The moderators have in fact been chosen in part for their participation in the community.

.
With all due respect, comparing the other boards to HP (or any political board) is an apples and oranges comparison. A political forum at its core has a conflict of opinions. It's not like the BHM board where everyone is a BHM or an FFA and there isn't much inherent tension as saying putting Democrats and Republicans in a space. So when you have the keeper of the rules aggressively arguing with a poster it just looks bad. It stifles discussion honestly. And I am not accusing just BBD of this as I can clearly remember two other moderators in the early years of HP who did the same thing on an almost regular basis. It's almost impossible to take a mod seriously after seeing them interact like that , hence why I am so vehemently against the idea of the mod of a political forum also be an active debater.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:36 PM   #32
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I never saw anything wrong with BBD posting and modding. She's allowed to have fun and take part just like everyone else. She isn't paid....so wtf?
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:54 PM   #33
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I never saw anything wrong with BBD posting and modding. She's allowed to have fun and take part just like everyone else. She isn't paid....so wtf?
Amen sister
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:59 PM   #34
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BBD not being able to join in the discussion and be a mod at the same time is horseshit. She is entitled to her say just the same as the rest of us no matter if she's a mod or not.

The thing I think that would need to be done would to have iron clad and clear cut rules in place on what is and is not infractable behavior. The faults I've seen her make have been in using the ambiguity of the rules at times to warn or infract.

I do however see her dilemma, and remember this is my perception and not necesarily how she sees it, but those on the left get pissed that they are heavier infracted than those on the right and those on the right get pissed because they stayed within the shadowy rules and still get warned or infracted.

The truth is, Deli and Bio are better at firing people up, but know how to stay within the rules. I can't recall one instance where Deli has ever made it personal with anyone even through his inane and obtuse arguments. Big Mac, Leishycat, and to a lesser extent TonyNYC can't seem to not go personal with insults and attacks therefore being slam dunk infractions. So they can get infracted or warned on a lot more posts than they do, but when they don't Deli, Bio, and sometimes Tracii piss and moan about how they get away with everything. Then it seems to me that BBD then has to try and balance the scales by hitting up posts that are in that grey area even though not techincally against the rules and that causes a new round of bitching.

I believe that if that issue can be fixed, where there are clear rules and also a tightening up of some rules to not allow the gratuitous trolling so that they can't toss a proverbial rock and then step back across the line with a nanny nanny boo boo to the others then I think BBD wouldn't have near as hard of a time being a mod and still engaging in the debate plus it might actually stand a chance at working and making a go of a new board.
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:26 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by LeoGibson View Post
BBD not being able to join in the discussion and be a mod at the same time is horseshit. She is entitled to her say just the same as the rest of us no matter is she's a mod or not.

The thing I think that would need to be done would to have iron clad and clear cut rules in place on what is and is not infractable behavior. The faults I've seen her make have been in using the ambiguity of the rules at times to warn or infract.

I do however see her dilemma, and remember this is my perception and not necesarily how she sees it, but those on the left get pissed that they are heavier infracted than those on the right and those on the right get pissed because they stayed within the shadowy rules and still get warned or infracted.

The truth is, Deli and Bio are better at firing people up, but know how to stay within the rules. I can't recall one instance where Deli has ever made it personal with anyone even through his inane and obtuse arguments. Big Mac, Leishycat, and to a lesser extent TonyNYC can't seem to not go personal with insults and attacks therefore being slam dunk infractions. So they can get infracted or warned on a lot more posts than they do, but when they don't Deli, Bio, and sometimes Tracii piss and moan about how they get away with everything. Then it seems to me that BBD then has to try and balance the scales by hitting up posts that are in that grey area even though not techincally against the rules and that causes a new round of bitching.

I believe that if that issue can be fixed, where there are clear rules and also a tightening up of some rules to not allow the gratuitous trolling so that they can't toss a proverbial rock and then step back across the line with a nanny nanny boo boo to the others then I think BBD wouldn't have near as hard of a time being a mod and still engaging in the debate plus it might actually stand a chance at working and making a go of a new board.
LeoGibson, exactly this.
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Old 12-02-2016, 08:30 PM   #36
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And finally: yes, I recognize that I may lack a certain expected level of cynicism about human nature, and may even be something resembling an optimist. No need to point that out, just try to persuade me why in this case optimism isn't warranted and cynicism is.
That would be because you're Canadian that you lack that cynicism gene. It's mutated into a Tim's gene.
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Old 12-02-2016, 11:17 PM   #37
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To hit a few of the points here:

The politics board served to drain the swamp (to borrow a phrase) -- without it serving as the honeypot for political-social flamewars, they'd have cropped up in the other boards and sown dissension there. It's necessary.

There's no reason to keep the mod out of the discussion. As noted, she's bent over backwards to maintain fairness despite her leanings. Sometimes too much so, but that's had its advantages over the years.

Images should absolutely be limited in quantity per post. One sounds about right, maybe two. A good cartoon says a lot -- "a thousand words", right? -- but this ought to be a place for discussion directly between forum participants. Leaning too much on outside writers, cartoonists, or meme factories takes that interaction away.

Thanks to all for all you've done!
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Old 12-03-2016, 01:29 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoGibson View Post
BBD not being able to join in the discussion and be a mod at the same time is horseshit. She is entitled to her say just the same as the rest of us no matter is she's a mod or not.

The thing I think that would need to be done would to have iron clad and clear cut rules in place on what is and is not infractable behavior. The faults I've seen her make have been in using the ambiguity of the rules at times to warn or infract.

I do however see her dilemma, and remember this is my perception and not necesarily how she sees it, but those on the left get pissed that they are heavier infracted than those on the right and those on the right get pissed because they stayed within the shadowy rules and still get warned or infracted.

The truth is, Deli and Bio are better at firing people up, but know how to stay within the rules. I can't recall one instance where Deli has ever made it personal with anyone even through his inane and obtuse arguments. Big Mac, Leishycat, and to a lesser extent TonyNYC can't seem to not go personal with insults and attacks therefore being slam dunk infractions. So they can get infracted or warned on a lot more posts than they do, but when they don't Deli, Bio, and sometimes Tracii piss and moan about how they get away with everything. Then it seems to me that BBD then has to try and balance the scales by hitting up posts that are in that grey area even though not techincally against the rules and that causes a new round of bitching.

I believe that if that issue can be fixed, where there are clear rules and also a tightening up of some rules to not allow the gratuitous trolling so that they can't toss a proverbial rock and then step back across the line with a nanny nanny boo boo to the others then I think BBD wouldn't have near as hard of a time being a mod and still engaging in the debate plus it might actually stand a chance at working and making a go of a new board.
Seems as if some of our "well meaning" participants have gone into hiding...this would be a good opportunity for these shy folks to come out and let their voices be heard - it's all good....

I think it would be nice to have a discussion at some point as to what is and is not breaking the rule; but, this can be something for a later point..

I don't know if one can have things "Iron Clad" makes one think of the Rockefeller Drug Laws!!! or better yet "Three Strikes your Out" rules...Maybe an appeal process is in order....
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Old 12-03-2016, 06:28 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by LeoGibson View Post
The truth is, Deli and Bio are better at firing people up, but know how to stay within the rules. I can't recall one instance where Deli has ever made it personal with anyone even through his inane and obtuse arguments. Big Mac, Leishycat, and to a lesser extent TonyNYC can't seem to not go personal with insults and attacks therefore being slam dunk infractions. So they can get infracted or warned on a lot more posts than they do, but when they don't Deli, Bio, and sometimes Tracii piss and moan about how they get away with everything.
Sorry - but this assessment is incorrect.

As the mod here who has some experience with press and free speech laws, the final straw for closing HP down was that we were looking at cases of potentially indictable slander from one of the parties you assume 'know how to stay within the rules'. (Looking through the threads also showed more examples for this - so there are many guilty parties from all political sides here).

Conforming to internal rules here is one thing - moving into territory were we are talking of violating actual laws is another.
Not that I assume any political institution or persona would consider HP at Dims important enough to take legal action. But alone the fact that people casually going through the boards stumble across debate content and style they with some right can find offensive is undesirable.

So when we're discussing new rules for a new political board - we have to consider 2 levels:
1. Conforming to actual freedom of speech and press laws.
This being the internet with unclear jurisdiction, in addition a site used by an international audience with highly diverging legislation and legal traditions on this issue doesn't make it easier.
2. Internal rules - which more or less set the standard on how we want and expect the people at Dims to communicate with each other.

Freedom of speech is not the right to bad manners or antisocial behavior. The political message of a turd-emoticon is pretty limited, while it's negative impact on any debate culture is high.


Quote:
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Seems as if some of our "well meaning" participants have gone into hiding...this would be a good opportunity for these shy folks to come out and let their voices be heard - it's all good....
This is actually what started me - as someone who actually works in political & civic education - doubting the wisdom of setting up a NPB.

It is telling that - with one exception - none of the HP inventory has been contributing to this discussion. As much as I appreciate it that more occasional and former posters are weighing in on this in a constructive manner - what does it tell us that the heavy users are not?
None of the assumptions I can come up with on this are flattering.
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Old 12-03-2016, 07:35 AM   #40
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It is telling that - with one exception - none of the HP inventory has been contributing to this discussion. As much as I appreciate it that more occasional and former posters are weighing in on this in a constructive manner - what does it tell us that the heavy users are not?
None of the assumptions I can come up with on this are flattering.
I pointed out the same thing in the thread about naming the new board. I likened it to taking a drug (arguing with other posters) away from them. I know a couple of the bigger names have popped up elsewhere on the site in since HP closed but with none of the consistency or volume I am accustomed from them.
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Old 12-03-2016, 08:32 AM   #41
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Im fine with whatever rules get put in place and I have no issue with the current mod
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Old 12-03-2016, 10:11 AM   #42
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I think maybe they're looking for someone less to the left than I am...
Slightly more right.
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Old 12-03-2016, 02:30 PM   #43
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Sorry - but this assessment is incorrect.

As the mod here who has some experience with press and free speech laws, the final straw for closing HP down was that we were looking at cases of potentially indictable slander from one of the parties you assume 'know how to stay within the rules'. (Looking through the threads also showed more examples for this - so there are many guilty parties from all political sides here).
Agouderia has no reason to know this, but I also have quite a bit of experience with press and free-speech laws, having worked as a professional newspaper editor for 20 years.
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Old 12-03-2016, 10:04 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Leishycat View Post
I've never had an infraction that wasn't HP-related. Most of them were related to responding harshly to personal attacks, trolling, dehumanization, and other awful things from a few of our more deplorable members. I wouldn't say that they make me any less fit to volunteer as a moderator. -_-
I would disagree. Possessing a well documented history of responding harshly to other posters and referring to posters as "deplorable" isn't exactly a reassuring quality in a moderator.

You strongly dislike Bio and Deliman. It's not exactly a secret. In fact, I am sure "dislike" is not strong enough of a word to describe how you feel. Can you honestly see yourself moderating individuals you openly despise? Do you in good conscience think you could be fair and impartial to people you have told to "fuck off"? And if Bio and Deliman decide not to appear in a new political forum, more conservatives will appear and fill the void. It's a natural flow of things.
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Old 12-03-2016, 11:14 PM   #45
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Being conservative does not automatically make someone horrible. The traits displayed by certain posters - constant harassment, trolling, dehumanization of minorities, lies, and slander - those are the problems. Those are what I think needs to be cracked down on. If we just make the forum a liberal echo chamber and ban every opposing viewpoint, what's the point?
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Old 12-04-2016, 06:31 AM   #46
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I pointed out the same thing in the thread about naming the new board. I likened it to taking a drug (arguing with other posters) away from them.
Your post in the first thread was one of those that set me thinking about the wisdom and positive potential of having a NPB on here. And you analysis is about as non-flattering as mine.

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Slightly more right.
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Originally Posted by ScreamingChicken View Post
I'd be fine with centrist/moderate (do those folks even exist anymore?)
If we want to start determining the position of a moderator for the potential NPB board with a millimeter measure on the political left-right continuum - this is an endeavor which is bound to fail.

The discussion threads unfortunately also show that both sides still seem unwilling to acknowledge that neither of them can statistically substantiate the claimed bias in moderating.

In that Dims mirrors the general situation of US politics: 2 planets in different orbits that can no longer communicate and only shoot toxic intergalatic missiles at each other.


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Originally Posted by Leishycat View Post
I've never had an infraction that wasn't HP-related.
Not to be cynical - but if it hadn't been for HP, Dims could have gotten entirely rid of an infraction system ages ago.
95% of all infractions were for HP activities (the remaining 5% mostly refer to PM trolling, for which other solutions can be found).

All of this is not very reassuring for the future of a NPB....
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:52 AM   #47
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If we want to start determining the position of a moderator for the potential NPB board with a millimeter measure on the political left-right continuum - this is an endeavor which is bound to fail.
Let me clarify myself a better...it's not the philosophical persuasion by itself that is a qualifier/dis-qualifier but rather if it veers hard to the left or right AND they have a defined history of going after "the other side" at point blank range that I find unsettling in a moderator. I have found that centrists/moderates tend to be less likely to engage in such a behavior. Now a moderator who is a liberal or conservative without a track record of going after "the other side" at point blank range I have no problem with.
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Old 12-04-2016, 10:18 AM   #48
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BBD has my vote. Had no problem with the moderating. I have a lot of free time and have been a mod back when MSN had groups. I don't think I could be fair on HP. The ultra conservatives pretty much drove me away and I know I would perma ban them within a week. Same with one of the more liberal posters. I'm really angry that we might lose a board that some of us would like to fix. Seriously, those of you who hate it, then don't visit it. I don't like a lot of the other boards, they are geared to people younger than me, or contain so much sweetness that I'm amazed no one has gotten diabetes. For me if the board goes, I go. It's the only one I halfway enjoyed
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Old 12-04-2016, 11:03 PM   #49
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BTW: I am late to this discussion since all of last week I was visiting family in North Carolina.

Please allow me to be blunt. It would be shameful and cowardly if the powers that be don't bring back the political board. There is a reason that Hyde Park was created. All you must do is look at the “We're fucked” thread in the GLBTQ forum to understand that.
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Old 12-04-2016, 11:41 PM   #50
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BTW: I am late to this discussion since all of last week I was visiting family in North Carolina.

Please allow me to be blunt. It would be shameful and cowardly if the powers that be don't bring back the political board. There is a reason that Hyde Park was created. All you must do is look at the “We're fucked” thread in the GLBTQ forum to understand that.
You mean that GLBT expressing their opinions needs to be in Hyde Park? Please. They are expressing their fear, not to debate with you, who will blindly tell them that they are wrong.
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