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Old 12-13-2016, 11:56 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Tad View Post
I'm curious as to people's thoughts on this one. What this means in practice is that everyone who wanted to post on the NPB would have to write (probably to Loopy) and ask to have their status adjusted so that they were allowed to post there.

This could be taken even farther, so that people who don't have write access to the board can't even see it. But the issue then is that new members would have a hard time finding out it existed. On the other hand, people who don't want to be bothered by politics wouldn't see the board (either on the home page or in latest posts).

IF we put that rule in place, a couple of things could be done with it:
- as suggested, we could put requirements in place in order to get posting permission. For example, we could say something like "You have to have made at least productive posts in the past year before you can use the NPB" (by productive we mean that posting "One ......" "Two ........" etc wouldn't count, nor would be going into the Lounge and posting "This game is so stupid, I can't believe how much time people waste playing it."

- If we did the above, possibly we could add some related requirement as part of clearing a red card? (You have to wait two weeks, but you also have to make at least four useful non-political posts, or whatever).

- Aside from making sure that people using the board have at least some involvement with the broader community (letting people see another side of them, and maybe getting them to see another side of other people), this would also help block off any the occasional odd case where a new sign-up immediately started in HP without having posted elsewhere, which always raised concerns about sock-puppet accounts.

- On the other hand, this would be more work to administer, and maybe feels infantalizing?
I like this idea a lot. I've been stating for years that too many people have shown up to Dims and all they do is post in HP. Arguing politics is/was the extent of their purpose here.

Keep it hidden like the SSBBW board that way we aren't just drawing anyone and everyone in for a fight.
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ScreamingChicken View Post
I like this idea a lot. I've been stating for years that too many people have shown up to Dims and all they do is post in HP. Arguing politics is/was the extent of their purpose here.

Keep it hidden like the SSBBW board that way we aren't just drawing anyone and everyone in for a fight.
Well , you have other Boards that folks mainly just participate in that. I guess at the end of the day each participant's Dim experience is how they want to make it and what Forums they choose or not choose to participate in ...
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Old 12-13-2016, 12:14 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tonynyc View Post
Well , you have other Boards that folks mainly just participate in that. I guess at the end of the day each participant's Dim experience is how they want to make it and what Forums they choose or not choose to participate in ...
There is a distinct difference in joining Dims for the explicit purpose to post in a political boards vs the BBW, BHM, or Foodie boards. The difference is in the motivation for joining... "I am looking to interact with like interested people" vs " I just want to argue and to hell with interacting in a positive manner."
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Old 12-13-2016, 01:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ScreamingChicken View Post
There is a distinct difference in joining Dims for the explicit purpose to post in a political boards vs the BBW, BHM, or Foodie boards. The difference is in the motivation for joining... "I am looking to interact with like interested people" vs " I just want to argue and to hell with interacting in a positive manner."
Well... that would be a whole other matter....

It all depends on what definition we consider in your above quote "like interested people"

We have folks from all political spectrums within this community (from alt right to very strong liberal ideas)... Some folks choose to keep their political opinions to themselves and others don't... Are we able to look at others folks in a different light once their opinion are known? It depends on each case by case scenario...

As for the above postings on the various rules... sounds great in "theory" ... we can only see what happens once this new board comes live - may mean for a good deal of tweaking down the road
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Old 12-13-2016, 02:12 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ScreamingChicken View Post
I am going to be that guy and point out the 800 pound pink gorilla in the room...until I hear Big Mac and Bio weigh in and see where they stand with all the proposed changes, I am going to be concerned about the NPB's success. For good or bad (depending on your point of view), they framed Hyde Park the last few years. And I am worried that it takes just a handful of people to derail the NPB.
Bio definitely wont be commenting on this because he is currently on time out. (though now that I think about it, infractions aren't expiring and Hyde Park no longer exists so perhaps I should go and undo that?)

Pretty sure he is the only HP regular on time out at the moment though.
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Old 12-13-2016, 02:22 PM   #31
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Yah, probably would be good to lift that. Not really looking forward to his commentary, should he care to share it, but all the same ..... probably for the best?
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Old 12-13-2016, 04:45 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by loopytheone View Post
Bio definitely wont be commenting on this because he is currently on time out. (though now that I think about it, infractions aren't expiring and Hyde Park no longer exists so perhaps I should go and undo that?)

Pretty sure he is the only HP regular on time out at the moment though.
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Yah, probably would be good to lift that. Not really looking forward to his commentary, should he care to share it, but all the same ..... probably for the best?
Here is the thing... at this point we do have to look at the comments from all participants whether we agree/disagree like/dislike them or not. Why would you be hesitant of what he would have to say?
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Old 12-13-2016, 04:48 PM   #33
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Here is the thing... at this point we do have to look at the comments from all participants whether we agree/disagree like/dislike them or not. Why would you be hesitant of what he would have to say?
Because he's a *stuffs her fist in her mouth before she can finish*
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:42 PM   #34
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Because he's a *stuffs her fist in her mouth before she can finish*
then someone would need a big boot up the ####
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Old 12-13-2016, 08:18 PM   #35
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Of course you can discuss whether or not President Obama's handling of the Paris Agreement makes political sense or not. (I for one would argue that he made a mistake in not trying to get it through Congress. Because the question of climate action is one which finally needs to be addressed and decided by the highest US legislative authority, alone for reasons of political hygiene.)
No, that is not correct. Please allow me to cite the post from above.

Source:
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopytheone View Post
[*]Faking data or quotes or establishing fake correlations is outlawed.
For example: Some things are universally acknowledged – like 197 countries set up the United Nations Secretariat to combat Climate Change. Even if you don’t believe in it, accept it that most of the world sees this as a fact.
This would seem to “outlaw” any discussion of Climate Change since the Mods have concluded it must be treated as a fact. Yet, from the US perspective; Barack Obama did not submit the Paris Agreement to the US Senate. He can count the possible votes of the Senators and knew this agreement would be defeated.

Which would mean despite Obama's signature at least one major country would not agree. Further, the agreement lacks any enforcement mechanisms. Basically, this agreement is just a PR stunt for a photo op. It means nothing!

So; I ask again … What other “political” topics will be “outlawed?”
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Old 12-13-2016, 09:23 PM   #36
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No, that is not correct. Please allow me to cite the post from above.

Source:

This would seem to “outlaw” any discussion of Climate Change since the Mods have concluded it must be treated as a fact. Yet, from the US perspective; Barack Obama did not submit the Paris Agreement to the US Senate. He can count the possible votes of the Senators and knew this agreement would be defeated.

Which would mean despite Obama's signature at least one major country would not agree. Further, the agreement lacks any enforcement mechanisms. Basically, this agreement is just a PR stunt for a photo op. It means nothing!

So; I ask again … What other “political” topics will be “outlawed?”
Thank you, Deli, for once again derailing a thread for the purpose of unrelated partisan fuckery centered around blaming Obama for something.

This thread is about the rules of the new political board, not about how you feel like you're being unfairly silenced by having to provide credible sources for claims you make regarding globally-acknowledged scientific findings, with the penalty for not doing so being, based on the rules at this point, the removal of a post and possibly a minor infraction.

The world isn't flat, it revolves around the sun rather than vice versa, and a global rise in temperature that can be linked to human activity is real. If you have something that can reasonably challenge any of these things, feel free to share it. If you're just whining that Obama signed a thing you didn't agree with because you personally don't believe that climate change is real, or that the sun is the major body that the planets orbit around, or that circumnavigation of Earth is possible because it is in fact round, then you're not contributing anything.
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Old 12-13-2016, 09:51 PM   #37
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Thank you, Deli, for once again derailing a thread for the purpose of unrelated partisan fuckery centered around blaming Obama for something.
Well … I was discussing the rules and how the Mods are suggesting some topics will be “outlawed.” I cited an example of why man-made Climate Change can't be treated as a fact. My comments were all related back to the suggested rules.

BTW: You will note that no where in my post did I make a judgment about Barack Obama actions.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:13 PM   #38
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Wild Zero: Post deleted for pic spam and insulting other members.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:19 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262 View Post
This would seem to “outlaw” any discussion of Climate Change since the Mods have concluded it must be treated as a fact. Yet, from the US perspective; Barack Obama did not submit the Paris Agreement to the US Senate. He can count the possible votes of the Senators and knew this agreement would be defeated.

Which would mean despite Obama's signature at least one major country would not agree. Further, the agreement lacks any enforcement mechanisms. Basically, this agreement is just a PR stunt for a photo op. It means nothing!

So; I ask again … What other “political” topics will be “outlawed?”
Okay, I think I can see where the confusion is coming from.

Climate change was being used as an example of not falsifying data. Nobody is trying to say you can't discuss climate change. Sorry that I didn't make that clear.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:26 PM   #40
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Subway sammich statements and declarations of sorts - seems like old times .....
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Old 12-14-2016, 02:18 AM   #41
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Also, RE: Bio, I have no problem with him joining in with this, I just honestly forgot that infractions still aren't expiring so he is still banned/on timeout. I will go reverse that later today when I'm doing my general admin cleaning.
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Old 12-14-2016, 07:46 AM   #42
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*referring back to original post*

I really appreciate the amount of thought and work that has gone into this and also understand the amount of work this will take.

I ike the idea of removing bad posts, but other members also have to be accountable for not escalating...and using the quote function to bypass the rules.

So if Xy posts something that is clearly a violation, others should not be quoting and responding her. That means that the moderator not only has to remove the offending post, they have to edit dozens of subsequent posts and do a thread correction.

I don't know how to deal with that, but maybe have sub infractions for those who can't leave well enough alone...?
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Old 12-14-2016, 08:09 AM   #43
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*referring back to original post*

I really appreciate the amount of thought and work that has gone into this and also understand the amount of work this will take.

I ike the idea of removing bad posts, but other members also have to be accountable for not escalating...and using the quote function to bypass the rules.

So if Xy posts something that is clearly a violation, others should not be quoting and responding her. That means that the moderator not only has to remove the offending post, they have to edit dozens of subsequent posts and do a thread correction.

I don't know how to deal with that, but maybe have sub infractions for those who can't leave well enough alone...?
If I am reading the rules right, a post that potential violates the rules is tagged by the moderator and made invisible until the moderator team reviews it for a final decision. With it invisible to everyone but the mod team, no one can quote . Granted , there is a window of "time " where it can be quoted before the moderator tags it for review.
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:17 AM   #44
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If I am reading the rules right, a post that potential violates the rules is tagged by the moderator and made invisible until the moderator team reviews it for a final decision. With it invisible to everyone but the mod team, no one can quote . Granted , there is a window of "time " where it can be quoted before the moderator tags it for review.
Which could be many hours at times. It will help a lot of members report posts they think may be over the line.
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:20 AM   #45
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So; I ask again … What other “political” topics will be “outlawed?”
Since so many immediately hit you with personal attacks instead of addressing your question, I'll respond.

Based on these that rule, any discussion of fat acceptance would be "outlawed" if the rule is followed as written. The philosophy is known as the tyranny of the majority. A minority viewpoint is outlawed.
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:37 AM   #46
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Climate change was being used as an example of not falsifying data.
And that is one of the core problems nowadays. Our various science disciplines either lack the rigor of previous decades, are addressing ever larger issues that exceed past scientific methodologies, or are being used as a tool to further goals other than pure science.

Without the ability to openly discuss any perspective on any political topic it produces a one sided forum under the misinformation that a topic is settled. Nothing is really ever settled. It just becomes common practice until more information comes along to change minds again.
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:37 AM   #47
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Since so many immediately hit you with personal attacks instead of addressing your question, I'll respond.

Based on these that rule, any discussion of fat acceptance would be "outlawed" if the rule is followed as written. The philosophy is known as the tyranny of the majority. A minority viewpoint is outlawed.
That's a very sobering way of putting it and illustrates why outlawing the discussion of certain topic can be a bad idea.
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:11 AM   #48
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Based on these that rule, any discussion of fat acceptance would be "outlawed" if the rule is followed as written. The philosophy is known as the tyranny of the majority. A minority viewpoint is outlawed.
Let's be realistic here and spell it out as it is:
Hyde Park was brought down by the tyranny of the minority.

The minority that refused to comply to general rules of good behavior.
The minority that refused to discuss political content or pay attention to actual arguments, instead threw ideological mud gone stale at each other.
The minority that circled only around itself and it's issues, no matter how irrelevant they were not only to the rest of the board or Dims, but probably to humanity in general.

Any NPB will have to face the complex task of balancing the interests of minority and majority.

We all have minority view points on one thing or the other - but we all have to be realistic enough whether these opinions are the salt of the earth - or whether it's time to acknowledge that we may just not be able to convince that f** majority - and move on.
Or we're just talking about a fringe-of-the-fringe issue, which dear though it may be to us - is of no interest to everybody else here. If it's so important to you - go to a specialized sight and discuss it with the like-minded and experts there.

What it boils down to is this ..



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members also have to be accountable for not escalating...
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:38 AM   #49
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As much as I like the idea of "members also have to be accountable for not escalating", it will never be accepted by a portion of the minority. They seem to justify their behavior because they were offended or the other poster said something that compelled them to respond and it's not their fault.

At a time where you would think people would be behaving because they've had their playground closed for renovations (due to bad behavior), we've already had posts deleted and threads locked on the business board because the temptation to attack was too great for some people.

If they can't cut the crap now, does anybody really think they will behave once they can talk politics again?
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:20 AM   #50
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If they can't cut the crap now, does anybody really think they will behave once they can talk politics again?
Well, that is something that we'll have to see over time. Certainly one thing that is planned is a mandatory review of the new board after a period of time, to see how it is functioning. If this experiment is an abyssal failure, it won't run for the next eight years, or whatever HP's span was.

One thing that I've wondered about, if some people treat the infractions system as something of a game (how far can I go before getting infracted? Can I lure someone else into an infraction? How much does constantly complaining about the moderation effect any of the above?), would it work better with less sober and well judged rules, and to simply acknowledge that penalties are part of the game and make them more pervasive? Penalize such things as tautologies, taunting, or repetitive tit-for-tat posting?

Overall I think that approach would probably take too much moderator time and create more howls of favoritism, but you have no idea how much I itch to be able to infract someone for figuratively yelling "I know you are, but what am I?" for the fifth time in a row?
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