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Old 02-05-2017, 10:25 PM   #26
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I'm having an anxiety prone evening tonight because he had a really bad depression day, and doesn't want company, to talk, or support. He was supposed to see a career counselor tomorrow and he's cancelling it and I'm terrified this is yet more self sabotage and self harm. This is the first thing he was going to do where I could see he was going to do it and get it done, and it scares me that he is cancelling it.

I know he'll get through it - he has gotten through it in the past - and he's not alone at home. He has pets that are dependent on him and has roommates who care about him. I just feel so worried on his behalf and whenever he closes off like this I go into a fretting-at-the-door kind of mode where I let him know he can reach out, but he prefers to be alone in his sadness and stuff. And as a therapist I just get deeply into my "argh can we just please talk about it!!!" mode. But I'm respecting his need for space. I can't imagine wanting to be alone in my worst moments but that's a completely different coping mechanism and I respect his different coping style. Even if I worry about its healthfulness, privately.

In writing here I'm dumping out (vs dumping in) so that I don't burden other folks in my intentional family with this shit. They've kinda heard this all a few times already. Also because most people don't really understand the complexity of the situation.

Most people believe that unquestionably there's nothing but selfharm impulses informing this drama. But there is more to it than that. For both of us, our fatness is somewhat of a reclamatory "fuck you" to abusive and neglectful parents who tried to control us though our bodies. Also food is a major source of comfort after years of food deprivation as a control tactic in both our families of origin. . But as we have this kind of response to our trauma, we also need to be mindful about it. I'm a little more distanced from my family of origin and also have a bit more Psychoeducation. His family of origin still impinges upon his life in ways that mine does not. I also have a variety of other psychiatric layers that aren't part of his makeup. And same goes for him.

Anyway. Life is hard. I love him and want to see us get through this. I know we can. Patience is a difficult virtue to practice.
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Old 02-06-2017, 02:36 AM   #27
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The body will create new fat cells when all the fat cells are full. But the body keeps the fat cells forever and they don't go away when you lose weight. They may empty but they don't go away and they are hanging around taking up space and energy.
What are the real life effects of this? I was 500+ pounds back around 2000-2002, and 300+ pounds now. That's 200-ish pounds worth of deflated empty fat cells hanging around in my body for the past 15 years. If it's just tissue that needs to be kept alive along with the rest of me, it's not using up enough energy for me to notice. Should I be able to tell they're there?
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Old 02-06-2017, 01:41 PM   #28
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Ugh. People who prefer to be alone when you're experiencing depression symptoms - why? My mental health is deeply worsened when I'm lonely. It's not an introvert extrovert thing because I'm an introvert. What is happening in your brain when you're self isolating and don't want company? Please help me understand - it's so different from my point of view. When I have in the past rejected company, it's because the people from whom I was rejecting company were the peoooe causing my pain. How is it that my partner doesn't want to talk to me or interact with me or be supported by me or be distracted with me when he's feeling down? I just don't get it at all.
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Old 02-06-2017, 01:42 PM   #29
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Also in my case isolation is often a form of self harm, which makes this all the more scary for me.
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Old 02-06-2017, 01:54 PM   #30
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I don't know depression very well, especially not of the more chronic chemical/brain-wiring kind. But I do recall that way back when my wife and I were just BF/GG having dated for several months, I graduated university and spent six months before I found work, and we were long distance that whole time. It really ground down my spirits, and eventually I'm sure I would have met all definitions for an acute depression.

By the end I was almost totally uncommunicative because I was so down that the energy required to try and communicate over that distance seemed almost impossible to muster, expressing love or affection was not something that I had in me at that time, I had nothing positive to communicate and didn't want to whine, and I could see no end in sight (there had been a major economic crash just before I graduated and nobody was hiring it seemed -- there were barely even any jobs to apply to).

Then again, when I'm sick I don't want anyone around either. I call it the cat instinct: when hurting go hide away where nobody can prey upon you while you are weak, and only come out when you are better (if you get better).

(Of course, the moment I found work I was walking on air and deeply back in love and so glad that we had survived that period.)

ETA: how far apart do you two live?
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Old 02-06-2017, 03:01 PM   #31
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What are the real life effects of this? I was 500+ pounds back around 2000-2002, and 300+ pounds now. That's 200-ish pounds worth of deflated empty fat cells hanging around in my body for the past 15 years. If it's just tissue that needs to be kept alive along with the rest of me, it's not using up enough energy for me to notice. Should I be able to tell they're there?
From what I understand, we start with a certain number of fat cells, and when they fill up, it creates another fat cell, and when that fills up, it creates another fat cell... and so on.
When we lose weight, our fat cells actually shrink, but the number of them does not. They're waiting around to get filled up again... which is why it is incredibly fast and easy to gain weight after losing.
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Old 02-06-2017, 03:22 PM   #32
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Ugh. People who prefer to be alone when you're experiencing depression symptoms - why? My mental health is deeply worsened when I'm lonely. It's not an introvert extrovert thing because I'm an introvert. What is happening in your brain when you're self isolating and don't want company? Please help me understand - it's so different from my point of view. When I have in the past rejected company, it's because the people from whom I was rejecting company were the peoooe causing my pain. How is it that my partner doesn't want to talk to me or interact with me or be supported by me or be distracted with me when he's feeling down? I just don't get it at all.
Molly, you sound like me, but let me tell you how to deal with this... FOCUS on you. Sometimes, we focus on others, trying to help them and lessen their pain, but it's really about taking the focus off ourselves.

Make a list of things you should do that would make Molly's life healthier and happier. Let your boyfriend be, men don't want to be mothered by their girlfriends.
What you can do is work on things that you know will help with your own depression, and ultimately make your life easier, and happier.
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Old 02-06-2017, 03:36 PM   #33
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From what I understand, we start with a certain number of fat cells, and when they fill up, it creates another fat cell, and when that fills up, it creates another fat cell... and so on.
When we lose weight, our fat cells actually shrink, but the number of them does not. They're waiting around to get filled up again... which is why it is incredibly fast and easy to gain weight after losing.
This is my understanding also
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Old 02-06-2017, 05:25 PM   #34
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I don't know depression very well, especially not of the more chronic chemical/brain-wiring kind. But I do recall that way back when my wife and I were just BF/GG having dated for several months, I graduated university and spent six months before I found work, and we were long distance that whole time. It really ground down my spirits, and eventually I'm sure I would have met all definitions for an acute depression.

By the end I was almost totally uncommunicative because I was so down that the energy required to try and communicate over that distance seemed almost impossible to muster, expressing love or affection was not something that I had in me at that time, I had nothing positive to communicate and didn't want to whine, and I could see no end in sight (there had been a major economic crash just before I graduated and nobody was hiring it seemed -- there were barely even any jobs to apply to).

Then again, when I'm sick I don't want anyone around either. I call it the cat instinct: when hurting go hide away where nobody can prey upon you while you are weak, and only come out when you are better (if you get better).

(Of course, the moment I found work I was walking on air and deeply back in love and so glad that we had survived that period.)

ETA: how far apart do you two live?
10m away from each other. I think the way you describe it is the way he might describe it.
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Old 02-06-2017, 05:26 PM   #35
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Molly, you sound like me, but let me tell you how to deal with this... FOCUS on you. Sometimes, we focus on others, trying to help them and lessen their pain, but it's really about taking the focus off ourselves.

Make a list of things you should do that would make Molly's life healthier and happier. Let your boyfriend be, men don't want to be mothered by their girlfriends.
What you can do is work on things that you know will help with your own depression, and ultimately make your life easier, and happier.
...I really don't want this kind of advice. I have a therapist, thank you.
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:55 PM   #36
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Ugh. People who prefer to be alone when you're experiencing depression symptoms - why?.
For me, it's when I'm not feeling well in any way. Physically ill or hurt, depressed or anxious, even fatigued. I think it's some primal animal instinct to nurse your wounds in seclusion in my case. It takes a lot out of me to be around people, but I do like people, they're just a bit draining. When I'm not up to my full strength in any way, it feels better to be alone. More peaceful, more restful, and I can put all of my energy into healing or recharging.
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Old 02-06-2017, 07:01 PM   #37
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For me, it's when I'm not feeling well in any way. Physically ill or hurt, depressed or anxious, even fatigued. I think it's some primal animal instinct to nurse your wounds in seclusion in my case. It takes a lot out of me to be around people, but I do like people, they're just a bit draining. When I'm not up to my full strength in any way, it feels better to be alone. More peaceful, more restful, and I can put all of my energy into healing or recharging.
It's a foreign experience to me. thanks for sharing.
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Old 02-07-2017, 03:05 AM   #38
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It's very natural and normal for depressed people to want to be alone. It doesn't mean they are trying to off themselves. And sometimes wanting to be alone doesn't mean the person is depressed. Sometimes you just don't have the energy to give to maintain a conversation or focus on another person's needs. Being alone can be about comforting yourself and removing things which are just overwhelming at the moment and wrapping up in a virtual blankey and tending to your body's need for comfort.

Maybe he suffers from S.A.D. and a vitamin D supplement will help.
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Old 02-07-2017, 03:09 AM   #39
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... FOCUS on you. Sometimes, we focus on others, trying to help them and lessen their pain, but it's really about taking the focus off ourselves.
All of this. ^
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Old 02-07-2017, 04:35 AM   #40
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Ugh. People who prefer to be alone when you're experiencing depression symptoms - why? My mental health is deeply worsened when I'm lonely. It's not an introvert extrovert thing because I'm an introvert. What is happening in your brain when you're self isolating and don't want company? Please help me understand - it's so different from my point of view. When I have in the past rejected company, it's because the people from whom I was rejecting company were the peoooe causing my pain. How is it that my partner doesn't want to talk to me or interact with me or be supported by me or be distracted with me when he's feeling down? I just don't get it at all.
I am one of those people who wants to be alone when I'm depressed/anxious. It is just a personal thing; tbh I find it very difficult to understand people who are the opposite way around. For me, being alone lets me be calmer and stiller, mentally, and it reduces the risk of me lashing out at someone I love, which is something I never wanted to happen.
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Old 02-07-2017, 06:13 AM   #41
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Something I forgot to add: for me words are hard (part of why I write so much online, I have time to think about the words, and I often compose those long posts on and off over an hour or three, and I can do it when I have the energy and focus for it). When I'm tired (just at normal times) it gets really hard to get a thought that is in my brain to come off my tongue, they feel miles apart.
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Old 02-07-2017, 10:34 PM   #42
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I have no idea what you are trying to say. lol. Did I use the wrong word? She wants him to lose 200lbs of size (not fat)? There are people who call themselves Fat Admirers here but it's not a fat acceptance group. I'm confused. Shouldn't they be called Size Admirers now?

So a forum for "size acceptance" as long as the person can still do all the things Molly enjoys, but larger than that then size modification is on the agenda: "there's a lot of little things that i want to do that i can't do with him, like going on walks, going camping, going swimming, buying him clothes more easily (he's outgrown most big and tall store offerings), spending more time out of the house, and fucking me deeper/with less awkward maneuvering."


I'll try to get hip with the times and use the right terminology in the future.
FWIW, I think Fat Molly was using "size" as a synonym for fat. Unfortunately some people still see "fat" as an accusation and not an adjective. She may be used to talking with more of those people in RL than those of us here that literally and linguistically embrace fat.

Your comments harken back to many of the discussions on the original and second Dimensions website regarding fat acceptance vs size acceptance. I'm one of the few here that still use fat acceptance. Most others use size acceptance so as not to offend the average size supporters and smaller midsize fat folks. And more recently, all the folks that had WLS but still hang around the obesogenic environment of Dimensions. Sadly, even NAAFA considered removing "fat" from their name.

And since this is the FA/FFA Forum, Fat Molly was expressing her concerns as seen from her side of their relationship as an FFA. There comes a point for most FA/FFA's in a LTR that they are no longer oblivious to or can ignore all the basic fat related issues their partner experiences. Then the guilt starts to creep in. Are they somehow responsible, are they an enabler, are they killing their partner with their love and acceptance? I suspect that's generally the phase where Fat Molly's at. And also by now Fat Molly's realized there's things she'd really like to do with her SO that are impaired by his weight. In other words, she's finally recognized boundaries to her preferences. She'd like to discuss these issues other FA/FFA's who may have already worked through them.

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If her bf was here asking for support to lose weight that would be one thing. But for her asking how to get him to lose weight... it really is such a typical thing that us large people have to deal with in a relationships and I'm sad to see it here in this forum.
Actually he should do that in the Health Forum, not here in the FA/FFA Forum. But it is entirely acceptable for an FA/FFA to ask other FA/FFAs their opinion on how to somewhat influence their SO's lifestyle to generally improve their health, or at least reconnect with basic healthcare.

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Do you believe they died young because they didn't have people telling them they need to lose weight? Or they never watched the news and knew there was risk of being overweight? Did they die because a loved one didn't judge them enough and nag them to go to the doctor? Or because society didn't tell them they were a ticking time bomb about to die? Or they died because they went out in public and nobody looked at them strange or pointed and laughed. Clearly they died because not enough people told them that being obese has health risks.


I apologize for the many posts, thoughts keep coming to my mind.
No need to apologize. Especially since i think we're finally getting to the core of your fundamental objections. I suspect you're dealing with basic self acceptance issues yourself and you've found this thread very contrary to your needs at this time in your development. It also provides a valuable comparison to the FA's who post in the BBW Forum.

No, none of our fat friends and acquaintances died from those things. But they all did die from weight related issues of one kind or another. As much as I'd love for that to not be true, unfortunately it is. The bigger question is whether or not simply draining fat cells is enough to eliminate the long term health risks or are the weight related health issues avoidable only by avoiding creation of the additional fat cells in the first place. I suspect only the latter applies.
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Old 02-07-2017, 10:57 PM   #43
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Fat Molly, reading through your posts, the one thing that jumps out at me is the level of conflict avoidance, a self defense mechanism, your SO is engaging in. It's something a lot of us can be prone to, even at moderate BMIs of 35 or so.

Maybe you could start a discussion with him about conflict avoidance and how easy of a trap it is to fall into. If he could overcome the tendency to avoid conflict then many of the issues you've noted will improve.

The hardest nut to crack will be the med exam, but that should be one of the first things after he gets a new job. Don't focus on weight or weight loss. I've found weight will usually go down once other issues are addressed. The weight is simply a byproduct. Your bigger issue may be how will you feel about him if he eventually loses 300 pounds. But that's a topic for another thread.

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Old 02-08-2017, 03:31 AM   #44
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No, none of our fat friends and acquaintances died from those things. But they all did die from weight related issues of one kind or another. As much as I'd love for that to not be true, unfortunately it is. The bigger question is whether or not simply draining fat cells is enough to eliminate the long term health risks or are the weight related health issues avoidable only by avoiding creation of the additional fat cells in the first place. I suspect only the latter applies.
I know in my case, being 500+ pounds for a while didn't cause any serious permanent damage (that can be measured by diagnostic procedures at least). Both my endocrinologist and cardiologist have verified that in my medical records.

So draining the fat cells did make a huge difference in my cardiac and metabolic function. Especially with my type 2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome. My doctor explained to me how fatty tissue is metabolically active in terms of affecting insulin levels and insulin sensitivity. It has to be the fat itself, not just the fat cells. Because I still have the same amount of fat cells as then but my insulin sensitivity and insulin resistance has significantly improved. And that has reduced the level of insulin in my bloodstream, helped me bring my blood glucose under tight control, manage it more easily with less medication and a less restrictive diet, reversed the early stage diabetic nephropathy I had been diagnosed with, and really improved my peripheral neuropathy in my feet and hands too.

As far as my heart and circulatory system, my blood pressure is normal now and my cardiac function returned to normal. I went through a lot of cardiac tests in the past 6 moths and everything was fine. All the abnormalities they found back around 2000 were no longer there. The doctor said looking at my diagnostic results, you'd never know that I ever had any cardiac issues in the past.

One thing the neurologist said is that having been fatter in the past didn't cause my stroke (unless the stroke happened back then when my blood glucose and blood pressure were not able to be effectively controlled with medication). We'll never know exactly when it happened. But none of the risk factors I had back then were present when I was diagnosed in August. And having had a risk factor in the past can't cause a stroke in the present, if it's no longer a risk factor.

So if I drop dead in the near future, it won't be because I was once a lot fatter, it'll probably be whatever unknown factor caused my stroke.
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Old 02-08-2017, 06:09 AM   #45
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Fwiw Tracy, saw a summary of a study last year that concluded that fat cells are sort of the shock absorbers of our bodies, soaking up excess glucose to avoid it causing damage. Except when they are maxed out in size they can't do this job effectively. Which could be why even modest weight gains may clear up metabolic syndrome for many people.

Still early days on that theory, but it does seem to make sense of a lot of observations.
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Old 02-08-2017, 07:40 AM   #46
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Fat Molly, reading through your posts, the one thing that jumps out at me is the level of conflict avoidance, a self defense mechanism, your SO is engaging in. It's something a lot of us can be prone to, even at moderate BMIs of 35 or so.

Maybe you could start a discussion with him about conflict avoidance and how easy of a trap it is to fall into. If he could overcome the tendency to avoid conflict then many of the issues you've noted will improve.

The hardest nut to crack will be the med exam, but that should be one of the first things after he gets a new job. Don't focus on weight or weight loss. I've found weight will usually go down once other issues are addressed. The weight is simply a byproduct. Your bigger issue may be how will you feel about him if he eventually loses 300 pounds. But that's a topic for another thread.
Babe you clearly didn't read my response posts - I don't have an opinion on his weight loss per se. My focus is not on weight loss but instead on getting him to the doctor. I don't know how many times more I need to say that before everyone starts to hear me on this. I know the near immobility related to weight is a symptom, not in and of itself the issue.

Conflict avoidance is a great topic of conversation though and I thank you for that suggestion.
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Old 02-08-2017, 09:16 AM   #47
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Babe you clearly didn't read my response posts - I don't have an opinion on his weight loss per se. My focus is not on weight loss but instead on getting him to the doctor. I don't know how many times more I need to say that before everyone starts to hear me on this. I know the near immobility related to weight is a symptom, not in and of itself the issue.

Conflict avoidance is a great topic of conversation though and I thank you for that suggestion.
But you did post
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<stuff snipped>
I'm insanely attracted to him now but I don't think that would go away if he lost a hundred pounds. even two hundred pounds i think, given he's nearly 500lbs if not over.

i like him squishy and i also like him enough to want him to stick around. <stuff snipped>
After reading the numerous emotional stresses he has (and had) in his life, I suspected if those were addressed he may lose more than the 200 pounds you cited as a possible threshold. I was just trying to get you to consider the possibility of him losing weight beyond 200 pounds without even trying. It's different for an FA/FFA when such a fundamental aspect of a relationship simply goes away.

FWIW, with my SSBBW wife I stressed one rule early in our relationship: health comes first, above all else. When in doubt, refer to rule number one. It's also come in handy to remind me as I've seen her drop from about 430 pounds to right around 200 pounds, with the most recent 40 to 50 pound loss occurring during her current hospital stay. My main frustration is the weight loss didn't really help her diabetes that much. The only improvement has been that her diabetes is less brittle and easier to control.

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Old 02-08-2017, 02:55 PM   #48
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Fat Molly, reading through your posts, the one thing that jumps out at me is the level of conflict avoidance, a self defense mechanism, your SO is engaging in.
You only know what Molly has told you, from her perspective. And quite possibly worded in a way such as to elicit a specific response in the reader.

I don't think it's appropriate to talk about someone's SO in this manner. He could be completely misrepresented. For example, Molly thinks that a person wanting some alone time is abnormal and a red flag for self-harm behavior.
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:30 AM   #49
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But you did post

After reading the numerous emotional stresses he has (and had) in his life, I suspected if those were addressed he may lose more than the 200 pounds you cited as a possible threshold. I was just trying to get you to consider the possibility of him losing weight beyond 200 pounds without even trying. It's different for an FA/FFA when such a fundamental aspect of a relationship simply goes away.

FWIW, with my SSBBW wife I stressed one rule early in our relationship: health comes first, above all else. When in doubt, refer to rule number one. It's also come in handy to remind me as I've seen her drop from about 430 pounds to right around 200 pounds, with the most recent 40 to 50 pound loss occurring during her current hospital stay. My main frustration is the weight loss didn't really help her diabetes that much. The only improvement has been that her diabetes is less brittle and easier to control.
Okay, for what it's worth! I have more than one partner. My girlfriend is trending on underweight. My boyfriends are, respectively, mildly obese (just a little plump), and severely morbidly obese (and clearly I'm talking about this one). I have no worry about being sexually attracted to my partner if he loses 200lbs 'without trying' (and I really doubt that he will lose 200lbs 'without trying' if he corrects the various psychosocial issues in his life. I'm explosively attracted to him and his body at the present time, sure. But I don't think that will change - if he loses even 200lbs he will be squishier than either of my other sexual and romantic partners. Even if he went down to my weight or (inconceivable but possible) less than my weight, I'm along for the ride.

(Ethical nonmonogamy, everyone has consent and knows each other, me and my partners hang out together all the time and they're cool with each other... just before anyone gets their panties in a twist.)

Thanks for your px HFA. My partners' health is also my primary priority. I think you unfairly categorized me when you said 'finally understanding the ramifications' - because trust me, it's always, ALWAYS been on my mind throughout my experiences as a FA. Working in the medical field tends to make these things take a preeminent role in my mind. Particularly when partner has most of the early signs of diabetes and he's unwilling to go to a doctor and address them.

Moreover, I posted this not on the FA/FFA forum but on the Health forum for a reason.
..................

In other news... I successfully got him to agree to a month of going to the gym with me a few days a week to go swimming. He's not enthused about it but I told him at least if he comes along, he can chill in my lane and watch me do laps. My emphasis with him is not weight loss but building muscles - esp. given he's experiencing trouble with his knee related to his weight, and I'm hoping such activity will help him with that.
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Old 02-11-2017, 02:35 PM   #50
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In other news... I successfully got him to agree to a month of going to the gym with me a few days a week to go swimming. He's not enthused about it but I told him at least if he comes along, he can chill in my lane and watch me do laps. My emphasis with him is not weight loss but building muscles - esp. given he's experiencing trouble with his knee related to his weight, and I'm hoping such activity will help him with that.
This is a great start. I've never trained someone quite as obese as your partner, (and in full discloser I'm not a certified trainer anyway) but I've always felt if I were going to do so, swimming is where I'd have him or her start. I also recommend the basic compound lifts: bench press, squat, deadlift, overhead press, and barbell rows make up the core of my training efforts. Even in an era where people are constantly trying to reinvent fitness these lifts remain staples in any serious strength program. They are easy to learn the proper technique, too. And the returns for the effort on those lifts far exceed a lot of the more technical trendy stuff you see these days.

If he is interested (or if you are going to push him into) the weight room, first do a quick search on the Stronglifts 5x5 program. It's a wonderful entry-level program that ANYONE can do. Also, since he is experiencing knee issues related to weight, I'll add maybe replacing conventional squats with the hack squat until he gets some muscle built up.

Best wishes to you as you continue to support your loved one.
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