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Old 01-09-2018, 07:31 PM   #1
TwoSwords
 
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Default Acceptance Throughout History; Favorites

You know, in my explorations of the internet, I see, like everyone, a lot of fat hate, and in some cases, it's pretty predictable. Yet, every so often, you see someone who seems to be so smart in so many other areas, and yet, who has been deceived into thinking that fatness is something new, that never existed before 1965. Whenever I talk to people about how it makes the most sense to treat fatness like any other quality, because fatness has been around for literally thousands of years, you'd be amazed how often I get a flat denial of that obvious fact in response.

For this reason, I wanted to share some of my favorite depictions of fatness in works that were released prior to 1965, and I hope you'll join in with something I haven't heard of yet.

What set my mind on this track was the movie Ichabod and Mr Toad, which contains several plump-looking people. There's at least one recurring woman and another recurring man, as well as the father of Katrina. No less a mainstream singer than Bing Crosby actually referred to Katrina herself as "plump as a partridge," and it's heartening to hear, even though her waist is cartoonishly narrow, of course. There was a time when people weren't petrified of a little softness.

If you've never read any of the Asterix books, do yourself a favor and pick some up. While Obelix himself is comicly fat and sensitive about his weight, there are many, many other fat characters in the series, both male and female, and very rarely does it even become a plot point for any of them. For the most part, it's treated as what it is; perfectly normal.

One fictional character that I strive to be more like, in more ways than one, is Charles Dickens' Fezziwig, from the book; A Christmas Carol, who, in every depiction I've ever seen, the book included, is a heavyset man, married to a plump woman and with multiple young daughters. He's a fun-loving sort who loves Christmas and celebrating with his friends, and if I had his life, I'd probably be happier too.

Something about these roles is comforting to me. Yes, there were good old days of innocence, when people didn't hate good things as they do now, and if I can say that about something written by Charles Dickens... That's kind of sad.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:06 PM   #2
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If you've ever read Asimov's novels, particularly the Foundation Series, there are plenty of hints that suggest he was an FA, which is kinda cool. He often inserts weight and weight gain into his stories where it doesn't always usually appear.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:42 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by UserNameName View Post
If you've ever read Asimov's novels, particularly the Foundation Series, there are plenty of hints that suggest he was an FA, which is kinda cool. He often inserts weight and weight gain into his stories where it doesn't always usually appear.
I really must read these books.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:05 PM   #4
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I really must read these books.
They are freaking amazing books anyway, so yeah, go for it.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:53 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
You know, in my explorations of the internet, I see, like everyone, a lot of fat hate, and in some cases, it's pretty predictable. Yet, every so often, you see someone who seems to be so smart in so many other areas, and yet, who has been deceived into thinking that fatness is something new, that never existed before 1965. Whenever I talk to people about how it makes the most sense to treat fatness like any other quality, because fatness has been around for literally thousands of years, you'd be amazed how often I get a flat denial of that obvious fact in response.

*snip*
It's sad. I was in another unrelated forum-and one thing or another led to this:
You know I'm tired of woman/men who hate on men just because they like how woman with some fat look, even if it's not a lot. I'm tired of being talked down to and told I'm either selfish, insecure or crazy. How about this is just the way I am? There's more to me than this. I shouldn't be defined by a single thing, right?

Many times I feel pressured to like thinner woman, or try. Since woman hate fat, it'd make life easier. I want to like what they like. Harmony is good. But try as I might, I can't like it as much as they do.

I read about some more studies yesterday. I guess guys who like larger breasts are tend to be more sexist. This is tied to overall fat, since the study linked adipose fat in the breasts to a signal of "resource wealth". Guys who like smaller breasts tend to be more dominant (prefer submissive wives) and don't want to be fathers or have children. These same guys prefer weaker hour glass shapes. Guys who like smaller breasts are generally more financially stable. Breasts might be a signal of fertility (hour glass is supposed to be too)--as well they increase in size during pregnancy. There's a average in any culture of what breast size (or fat) guys desire and it varies between cultures. One theory is this is because resource wealth is different. Even relatively small amounts of stress can make a guy--at least temporarily--more attracted to bigger woman. For woman, the effect is similar. Lower-income woman (tending to be rural i think) like higher bmi guys. I don't recall if they separated fat guys from muscular guys, since bmi by itself doesn't. Some of this isn't exclusive (I tried to use TEND a lot) and it's only a small window into a much larger reality. I'm confused about a lot of it. Maybe I shouldn't be commenting about it yet until I can collect my thoughts. I tried makign a prior post about this topic in another thread a some weeks ago. it's below:
http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/fo...7&postcount=18
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:24 PM   #6
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This is not exactly relevant to the overall thread topic, but it looks like soooo much fun to reply to.

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Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
You know I'm tired of woman/men who hate on men just because they like how woman with some fat look, even if it's not a lot. I'm tired of being talked down to and told I'm either selfish, insecure or crazy. How about this is just the way I am?
I know, right?

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Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
Many times I feel pressured to like thinner woman, or try.
"Many times" being code for "every time I turn on the TV and bother to look at it with my eyes."

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Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
Since woman hate fat, it'd make life easier. I want to like what they like. Harmony is good. But time after time I'm still attracted to bigger woman. It's like getting up and outside your window is beautiful forest sunshine but you can't look. You're not supposed to. If you look, the sun is black and its raining.
This actually reminds me of an old Addams Family episode, where Uncle Fester comes in from outside, gasping and panting, and everyone asks him if he's okay because he was out in all that fresh air and sunshine without at least taking his umbrella or something. I feel like an Addams sometimes.

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Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
They don't underrstand what it's like. We're not objectifying. This is just the way we're. This is nature. Sometimes nature is unwanted or bad. I get that. But it doesn't make it less hurtful.
Things are only bad when they fail to live up to their purpose in some way, and nature rarely does. The error lies in people assuming that all of us should have the same purpose with regard to our ability to apprehend the same kinds of beauty.

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Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
Another reason I"m here is I read about some more studies yesterday. I guess guys who like larger breasts are tend to be more sexist. This is tied to overall fat, since the study linked adipose fat in the breasts to a signal of "resource wealth". Guys who like smaller breasts tend to be more dominant (prefer submissive wives) and don't want to be fathers or have children. These same guys prefer hour glass woman, despite not wanting to be fathers. Guys who like smaller breasts are generally more financially stable. Breasts might be a signal of fertility (hour glass is supposed to be too)--as well they increase in size during pregnancy. There's a average in any culture of what breast size (or fat) guys desire and it varies between cultures. One theory is this is because resource wealth is different. Even relatively small amounts of stress can make a guy--at least temporarily--more attracted to bigger woman. For woman, the effect is similar. Lower-income woman (tending to be rural i think) like higher bmi guys. I don't recall if they separated fat guys from muscular guys, since bmi by itself doesn't. Some of this isn't exclusive (I tried to use TEND a lot) and it's only a small window into a much larger reality. I'm confused about a lot of it. Maybe I shouldn't be commenting about it yet until I can collect my thoughts. I tried makign a prior post about this topic in another thread a some weeks ago.
This is just funny to me. How did they determine that certain people were "more sexist." Did they call them in and ask them whether they thought women were inferior to men? Somehow, I can't imagine any modern man replying to that with a "yes."

I suspect they just asked other people whether they were sexist, or perhaps only a couple of other people. Therefore, the judgment is based purely on subjective grounds and is utterly fruitless.

As far as "smaller-chest-preferring" guys being more stable financially, there are, I think, three factors that play into that and skew the results.

1. Guys who are strongly motivated to provide for a wife will be more likely to aggressively pursue high-paying jobs, and therefore will make more money. Those who prefer "larger" chests are less likely to find a woman who can sympathize with their feelings, and if they're savvy, will recognize this, and be less motivated to impress the nonexistent crowd of admirers as a result.
2. Very successful people may be under great pressure to say that their attraction is for "smaller," even if it's untrue, in order to fit in with their successful buddies, and avoid causing a scandal for themselves and their business partners.
3. I would be interested in seeing how bust size effects a woman's rate of divorce, because nothing destroys a man's financial stability quite like being divorced. I've never experienced it myself, of course, but I think this could be the most damaging factor of all; especially if it turns out that large-chested women are any more likely to divorce a man than smaller-chested ones.
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:50 PM   #7
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Here're some example of the studies OP:
http://www.medicaldaily.com/treasure...-traits-319504

From one perspective, maybe men--who prefer smaller breasts--are trying to find a woman who won't compete with larger breasted woman because they want a submissive loyal partner. How this works in theory is smaller breasted woman don't compete as effectively for other men, so they're easier to hold onto. (removed) And keep in mind the "larger breasts" are also strongly linked to more weight--not just fertility--because the study was specifically looking at adipose fat. Meaning larger breasted woman will tend to be heavier. Weight is seen as a signal for resource wealth. It's believed men and woman in unsettling circumstances look for a mate with resource wealth.

(bolded) I removed because they liked WEAKER hourglass. This fits with the theory it might be loyalty.

EDIT: Estradiol is a hormone in woman which is tied to larger breasts and is fertility related. I bring this up because the larger breast studies are also looking at fertility markers. Below:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...nd-breast-size
Quote:
In keeping with the researchers' expectations, men who wished to remain child-free preferred smaller breasts.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:17 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
From one perspective, maybe men--who prefer smaller breasts--are trying to find a woman who won't compete with larger breasted woman because they want a submissive loyal partner.
Well, no one is looking for a spouse who's disloyal.

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What doesn't make sense about this is the hour glass shape is seen as a sign of fertility because it permits larger opening for the baby, so why would these men favor larger hourglass ratios if they're trying to avoid fatherhood?
Beats me, but then again, I've never understood the type of attitude that shuns children.

But I don't think these kinds of studies show the construction of our minds because I believe in human free will. There are always good explanations for these sorts of things in some way.

Now, I am going to have to ask that we try to talk about the thread topic.
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:45 PM   #9
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Sorry for interrupting with all this. The only thing I can think of historically are some stereograph photos I have from 1890's and early 1900's. The KeyStone company made stereograph viewers in the 19th and 20th century. When you look through the eyeglasses, the photo becomes 3-dimensional. One of them shows a wedding. The woman is mildly overweight. She's looking in the mirror at a friend. In the next frame, some time later, he's holding her. I love the history.

EDIT: I found this. Miss Universe 1927. Nobody's fat, but they look fatter than they do now:


Here's the one from 1926:
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Old 01-14-2018, 07:03 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
Sorry for interrupting with all this. The only thing I can think of historically are some stereograph photos I have from 1890's and early 1900's. The KeyStone company made stereograph viewers in the 19th and 20th century. When you look through the eyeglasses, the photo becomes 3-dimensional. One of them shows a wedding. The woman is mildly overweight. She's looking in the mirror at a friend. In the next frame, some time later, he's holding her. I love the history.

EDIT: I found this. Miss Universe 1927. Nobody's fat, but they look fatter than they do now:


Here's the one from 1926:
Yup. These look good, alright.
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Old 02-07-2018, 02:51 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by UserNameName View Post
If you've ever read Asimov's novels, particularly the Foundation Series, there are plenty of hints that suggest he was an FA, which is kinda cool. He often inserts weight and weight gain into his stories where it doesn't always usually appear.
I just finished the third Foundation book. I have mixed feelings about the series as a whole (I usually prefer stories that finish what they start,) but I have noticed the occasional weight-like descriptive term in the writing. No weight gain per se as yet, and the people he was talking about were rarely all that heavy, but his use of terms like "plump" and "pudgy" does seem to imply that he was perfectly free of the animosity that haunts fatness today, even if he wasn't an FA himself.

Also, some of the dialogue he writes near the end of the second book, about what it's like to be an outcast, unable to find true love sounds hauntingly familiar.
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Old 02-08-2018, 01:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
Sorry for interrupting with all this. The only thing I can think of historically are some stereograph photos I have from 1890's and early 1900's. The KeyStone company made stereograph viewers in the 19th and 20th century. When you look through the eyeglasses, the photo becomes 3-dimensional. One of them shows a wedding. The woman is mildly overweight. She's looking in the mirror at a friend. In the next frame, some time later, he's holding her. I love the history.

EDIT: I found this. Miss Universe 1927. Nobody's fat, but they look fatter than they do now:


Here's the one from 1926:
This is a prime example of a-historic thinking.
Even using the term "fatter" in relation to these beauty pageant contestants shows you are mentally straight-jacketed into todays beauty standards.

These women were considered completely normal and slim by the standards of the 1920's. And they are "thin" compared to what would have been the standard in 1910 - because the post WWI period with flapper dresses and short hair already brought a considerable push towards more androgenous ideals for women.

It was not until the 1960s mini-skirt fashion - think Twiggy - that the ultra-thin ideal for women really permeated into the mainstream.

You never do the past justice by applying todays standards.
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Old 02-08-2018, 03:04 AM   #13
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This is a prime example of a-historic thinking.
Even using the term "fatter" in relation to these beauty pageant contestants shows you are mentally straight-jacketed into todays beauty standards.

These women were considered completely normal and slim by the standards of the 1920's. And they are "thin" compared to what would have been the standard in 1910 - because the post WWI period with flapper dresses and short hair already brought a considerable push towards more androgenous ideals for women.

It was not until the 1960s mini-skirt fashion - think Twiggy - that the ultra-thin ideal for women really permeated into the mainstream.

You never do the past justice by applying todays standards.
In other words, as relatively-healthy as they look by comparison to today's standards, they're not especially fat for back then.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/f0...22d711dfe4.png

I always thought Muriel Landers was cute, meanwhile, and hey!

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/87/78/f3/8...7f3a100acf.jpg

Look who's flirting with their boyfriend. Go, Lu!

Yes, people recognized a difference between fat people and thin people, even back then, but my point in bringing this topic up, is that fatness is not a modern-day condition. There was a time when fat people like Winston Churchill, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Aquinas were not only respected, but were pillars of society, treated reverently by their fellows. Fatness was pretty normal for a large section of human history, in terms of how people treated it, and was correctly seen as not being a silent killer that inevitably destroys your life, and taints everything you have to say.

I say "correctly," because Churchill lived to be 90, and Franklin 84, so there you go.
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