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Old 09-21-2017, 12:23 AM   #1
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Cool body positivity versus reality

Most of you are probably well aware of the current movement around 'body positivity' in which plus-sized/fat women are referred to as 'curvy' and the argument is that all women should ideally be viewed as attractive/sexy (unless you are an under-evolved neanderthal). So I have been stewing over this topic for a while, and now I have been forwarded a textbook example that illustrates the issue, which I decided to share here.

In the attached link is an article about a young engaged couple who did a risque photo-shoot that went viral. The lady is a substantial woman of maybe size 16-18, while the guy is attractive and very chiseled.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/couples-boudoir-body-image_us_59c19125e4b0f22c4a8d669d?utm_campaign=hp_ fb_pages&utm_source=gn_fb&utm_medium=facebook&ncid =fcbklnkushpmg00000023

from the article:

"The viral shoot also gave Stephanie, who got engaged to Arryn in February, an opportunity to spread an important message about body positivity ― something she struggled with growing up as a curvaceous woman. “I remember being in junior high and looking at myself in the mirror, wondering why my stomach wasn’t the way it was ‘supposed’ to be,” she told HuffPost. “Over the years, I’ve come to accept that I am always going to be considered plus-size. I push myself out of my comfort zone by wearing clothes that I love but aren’t in society’s mold of what is acceptable for bigger women, like crop tops, tight shirts, shorter dresses and shorts. I walk around with my head high, smiling, and show no shame in myself.

And while Stephanie has been on a body positivity journey of her own, Arryn’s unwavering love and support has only bolstered her self-esteem.
“Throughout our relationship, there has never been a time when he made me feel self-conscious about any part of myself. To him, it doesn’t matter if I have not washed my hair for a week or shaved my legs in over a month,” she told HuffPost. “He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look, that I’m beautiful regardless.”

So he DOES NOT CARE how she looks !? Who the fuck actually believes this crap?!

There are 4 possibilities that I have come up with:

1: he has not admitted to/discussed with her that he prefers larger (aka fat) women - i.e. he is a stealth FA
2: the couple did not want to discuss with the reporter this sensitive topic regarding his preference for a larger woman and just decided to pass it off as him being such a wonderful, accepting dude
3: the guy actually does not have a strong size preference (rare as hen's teeth) OR overcame his preference to be with this gal due to other reasons (maybe just really bonds with her emotionally)
4: the 'journalist' did not include/address this aspect of the relationship properly because it would not support the modern feminist agenda that all women are beautiful and sexy to a 'properly socialized' male

My money would be on option 4. I think there is a twisted agenda out there to push this unrealistic idea: "He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look"
This gobbledygook needs to be countered by sound argument. FACT: men are driven by their visual attraction to the female form. FACT: not all men prefer the same thing. FACT: there is someone for (damn near) everyone. Anything else is fairytale nonsense or wishful thinking.

The door is being opened a bit, but we need to somehow get there and kick it open all the way. The more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not so much a matter of fat acceptance but rather a matter of FA acceptance. Once FAs are accepted by society as legit, fat people will be correspondingly accepted as well. We have had it backwards all this time. Then again, I could just be off my rocker
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Old 09-21-2017, 03:51 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waldo View Post
“Throughout our relationship, there has never been a time when he made me feel self-conscious about any part of myself. To him, it doesn’t matter if I have not washed my hair for a week or shaved my legs in over a month,” she told HuffPost. “He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look, that I’m beautiful regardless.”

So he DOES NOT CARE how she looks !? Who the fuck actually believes this crap?!

There are 4 possibilities that I have come up with:

1: he has not admitted to/discussed with her that he prefers larger (aka fat) women - i.e. he is a stealth FA
2: the couple did not want to discuss with the reporter this sensitive topic regarding his preference for a larger woman and just decided to pass it off as him being such a wonderful, accepting dude
3: the guy actually does not have a strong size preference (rare as hen's teeth) OR overcame his preference to be with this gal due to other reasons (maybe just really bonds with her emotionally)
4: the 'journalist' did not include/address this aspect of the relationship properly because it would not support the modern feminist agenda that all women are beautiful and sexy to a 'properly socialized' male
It seems to me that you are misinterpreting what they are saying. What she is (trying) to say is that regardless of what society views as attractive, he finds her beautiful/attractive. Even when she is hairy, dirty and fat, he is still attracted to her. That she doesn't have to look her 'best' all the time to be attractive to him; and there is a lot of pressure on fat women (and women in general) to always be feminine/presentable/fashionable in order to be attractive.

Also, you're wrong about it being 'rare as hen's teeth' not to have a strong size preference. Just look around the boards outside of the FA board and you will see that. Most people have a wide range of what they find super-attractive and an even wider range that they find cute/hot. The importance of size in determining attractiveness also varies between people; for some people it is the most important factor in whether or not they find somebody attractive and for other people it is just a mild preference. The world is full of variety when it comes to people and you are doing yourself a huge disservice in assuming everybody is the same as you.

You are definitely misinterpreting body positivity if you think that is what it is trying to push. The fact is that body positivity has very little to do with whether or not men/women etc find the person attractive. Nobody is saying that you have to find a certain person attractive, just that there should be an acceptance of different body types. A social acceptance, not a sexual one. The difference being that fat women want to be able to show our bodies without being abused; we aren't trying to say that everybody should be sexually attracted to us. It's two very different things.

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Originally Posted by waldo View Post
My money would be on option 4. I think there is a twisted agenda out there to push this unrealistic idea: "He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look"
This gobbledygook needs to be countered by sound argument. FACT: men are driven by their visual attraction to the female form. FACT: not all men prefer the same thing. FACT: there is someone for (damn near) everyone. Anything else is fairytale nonsense or wishful thinking.
I actually agree with the three things you referred to as facts (though they aren't facts, they are opinion/interpretations). However, again, I think you are misinterpreting what the people in the article are trying to say. Nobody is trying to disagree with those things. The two people in the article are a couple in a long term relationship, where things such as emotional love and social compatibility have higher importance than appearance; there are a lot of guys that wouldn't find a hairy, dirty girl attractive if they met her for the first time but it is inevitable that you will see your long term partner that way at some point and still find her attractive because you love her. That is the point of the article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldo View Post
The door is being opened a bit, but we need to somehow get there and kick it open all the way. The more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not so much a matter of fat acceptance but rather a matter of FA acceptance. Once FAs are accepted by society as legit, fat people will be correspondingly accepted as well. We have had it backwards all this time. Then again, I could just be off my rocker
Right, okay, I let this go in the FA board without comment but this is an issue that really needs addressing. The only reason that FA aren't accepted is because fat people aren't accepted by society. That is literally the only reason. As for why fat people aren't accepted in society? 0% of that reason is because people randomly don't like FAs. You are reducing all the issues that fat people, regardless of gender, face in society to nothing so that you can all pat yourselves on the back about how hard it is being an FA. The fat people you are dating face the same things you do, plus a thousand other forms of prejudice. If you really, truly think that what you are saying here makes sense, I advise you to log off the internet and go outside and interact with some real people. Actually talk to fat women as more than just potential sexual objects and see what the world is like for us. Because this kind of talk is self-obsessed and dismissive at best.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:10 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by loopytheone View Post

The only reason that FA aren't accepted is because fat people aren't accepted by society. That is literally the only reason. As for why fat people aren't accepted in society? 0% of that reason is because people randomly don't like FAs. You are reducing all the issues that fat people, regardless of gender, face in society to nothing so that you can all pat yourselves on the back about how hard it is being an FA. The fat people you are dating face the same things you do, plus a thousand other forms of prejudice. If you really, truly think that what you are saying here makes sense, I advise you to log off the internet and go outside and interact with some real people. Actually talk to fat women as more than just potential sexual objects and see what the world is like for us. Because this kind of talk is self-obsessed and dismissive at best.
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:59 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by loopytheone View Post
It seems to me that you are misinterpreting what they are saying. What she is (trying) to say is that regardless of what society views as attractive, he finds her beautiful/attractive. Even when she is hairy, dirty and fat, he is still attracted to her. That she doesn't have to look her 'best' all the time to be attractive to him; and there is a lot of pressure on fat women (and women in general) to always be feminine/presentable/fashionable in order to be attractive.

Also, you're wrong about it being 'rare as hen's teeth' not to have a strong size preference. Just look around the boards outside of the FA board and you will see that. Most people have a wide range of what they find super-attractive and an even wider range that they find cute/hot. The importance of size in determining attractiveness also varies between people; for some people it is the most important factor in whether or not they find somebody attractive and for other people it is just a mild preference. The world is full of variety when it comes to people and you are doing yourself a huge disservice in assuming everybody is the same as you.

You are definitely misinterpreting body positivity if you think that is what it is trying to push. The fact is that body positivity has very little to do with whether or not men/women etc find the person attractive. Nobody is saying that you have to find a certain person attractive, just that there should be an acceptance of different body types. A social acceptance, not a sexual one. The difference being that fat women want to be able to show our bodies without being abused; we aren't trying to say that everybody should be sexually attracted to us. It's two very different things.



I actually agree with the three things you referred to as facts (though they aren't facts, they are opinion/interpretations). However, again, I think you are misinterpreting what the people in the article are trying to say. Nobody is trying to disagree with those things. The two people in the article are a couple in a long term relationship, where things such as emotional love and social compatibility have higher importance than appearance; there are a lot of guys that wouldn't find a hairy, dirty girl attractive if they met her for the first time but it is inevitable that you will see your long term partner that way at some point and still find her attractive because you love her. That is the point of the article.



Right, okay, I let this go in the FA board without comment but this is an issue that really needs addressing. The only reason that FA aren't accepted is because fat people aren't accepted by society. That is literally the only reason. As for why fat people aren't accepted in society? 0% of that reason is because people randomly don't like FAs. You are reducing all the issues that fat people, regardless of gender, face in society to nothing so that you can all pat yourselves on the back about how hard it is being an FA. The fat people you are dating face the same things you do, plus a thousand other forms of prejudice. If you really, truly think that what you are saying here makes sense, I advise you to log off the internet and go outside and interact with some real people. Actually talk to fat women as more than just potential sexual objects and see what the world is like for us. Because this kind of talk is self-obsessed and dismissive at best.
"Even when she is hairy, dirty and fat, he is still attracted to her."

You actually believe that?! You really think he is not attracted to her plus-size body and is just in it for her pretty face and wonderful personality? Possible but unlikely.

As far as me 'misinterpreting' the gist of this article and the many more like it that I have read recently: it's not so much me as when I read the comments left by other readers. Many many comments left by other guys (and women) are along the lines of 'quit trying to ram it down our throats that we should find fat women sexy. I will NEVER buy into it' When I reply to such a comment saying I like fat women and I don't expect others to agree but just to live and let live, I am met with a bunch of 'thumbs down'. So the problem is when they are disingenuous and not presenting it as plus size women are attractive to some and that's ok. They are trying to promote that concept that you just need to find 'the right guy' who will look past your body to the real you. I think those guys are rare and if they are not really attracted to their partner from head to toe on day 1, it is not a good start to a relationship. For someone who recently posted that you would not want a guy who was not attracted to your plus-size body, I am surprised at your take on this.

As for my last point about fat acceptance coming through FA acceptance: yeah I misstated that. What I should have said is that we need a rising tide that will raise our boats together. The two can and should be linked. Consider fat people are discriminated against primarily because:
1) they are considered unattractive by the majority
2) being fat is still considered by many to be a character flaw resulting from laziness and overeating
3) being fat is unhealthy

FAs are only directly related to point #1, so yeah even if FAs were more accepted by society, it may not necessarily cover points 2 and 3. Although I recall when I first told my mother I was attracted to fat women, the first thing out of her mouth was along the lines of "but being fat is really unhealthy".

As far as your comment "Actually talk to fat women as more than just potential sexual objects". Well I do that every day with the fat woman (about size 22 currently) that I have been married to for 19 years
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:39 PM   #5
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A couple of decades ago, when I first joined what is often referred to as "the community", I could have cared less about size acceptance & what is currently known as body positivity.

I think it's entirely possible (and probably common) for most guys to not care about those issues, one of the many reasons that both SA & BP are considered feminist issues, and I think they generally do a grand job of repping both, at least online.

As I got into more serious relationships over the years, I became more aware of how the person I loved so much was treated, and became more involved in the SA & BP movements. I would guess that generally guys who are there just to "try" a big girl won't care about those issues. I can also tell you that having run BBW events for several years, many of those guys exist.

I might be lucky inasmuch as my attraction isn't solely based on size, though I've spent the past 20+ years in relationships with fat women. With that said, I don't make judgment calls about people who aren't attracted to fat women, or FA's who can't be attracted to average or thin women. Just as much as we can't explain the various attractions that we have,we also want people to understand our own, so it's probably a good idea to be more understanding of the attractions of others.

I think that Fat Acceptance has sort of moved into Body Positivity (or what I call "fat light). Whether it's Tess Holliday or Ashley Graham or GabiFresh, these smaller sized women are still good for the movement, in my opinion. Acceptance of any social/societal group often comes in increments (see civil rights, or the gay rights movement). I guess what I'm saying is that society can be desensitized to fat women in increments, and some of these models are paving the way (hopefully) to see fatter women on TV.

The only challenge that I see (from my point of view) is that since these issues are considered more feminist rather than societal issues, some of the women currently repping FA (& to a lesser extent BP) tend to be anti male (F*** the patriarchy) & shut out as well as shout down males who want to assist in advocating for the cause. While I also want to shatter the patriarchy, I'm also aware that we're all PEOPLE first, then we're female or male, fat or thin, black or white or yellow. I also have strong feelings from watching other social movements that every movement that has succeeded has had others outside of the movement advocating with them.

Now that I went off topic (a little), I have to ask, does anyone think that articles like the one pictured actually DO anything for Fat Acceptance or Body Positivity? Just as important, are their responses more in line with what Loopy has brought up, or are both of them lying to themselves or the rest of the world, as Waldo alluded to?

Finally, as a question for all, does it seem that her sense of self worth is shaped solely by this relationship, and if so, do you think that's healthy?

*EDITED* I wanted to add that my own feeling about the differences between Fat Acceptance & Body Positivity haven't been expressed (yet) in my response. I do think that both have similar, but different goals, and means to reach them. Let's see how this thread goes, and maybe it will come up.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:08 PM   #6
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Aside from the FA discussion, I don't care for this photo shoot, and it has nothing to do with anybody's body.
It's wet and muddy, and too staged to come off as art. JMHO.
Sorry if it's off topic. Carry on.
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:04 AM   #7
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I have a lot to say on this topic, and keep putting it off for lack of time to write and edit the whole thing ... so I'm giving up on the comprehensive response and am just going to address a couple of points quickly.

- Marlayna, I'm not sure if it was the setting, the photography, or what, but the set didn't do much for me either and generally I love that sort of stuff. I didn't think it was bad, just a bit meh.

- Waldo, I'm picturing a day when we had to move a pile of gravel. Wife put on old scruffy clothes that morning, and by the time we were done we were dusty, sweaty, and that lovely mix that dust and sweat make together. When we were done I swear that were it not for neighbours having a fine view I would have taken her on the back patio because she was just so darned sexy to me. Dirty in a good cause is freaking hot!

And I really don't notice the hair thing much, like if my wife feels she's let things go I won't have noticed at all, and when she just didn't worry about such things for a while when she had a broken wrist (followed by surgery on it a couple of weeks later, to keep things nice and tender for a long time) I think it was a couple of months before I really began to notice. Not a credit to me, just something that doesn't register with me much.

All of which is to say that the comment in that article didn't make me bat an eyelash. To me it just read "he's attracted to me even when I've not made a bit effort to present myself well" to which my thought was "Well duh, you are sexy to him, you'll be sexy to him at all times." Seems normal in my world.

- My biggest regret about such articles is that they are still generally limited to size 16-18 (American sizing) type women. I remember speculating about the future of size acceptance a long time ago (on the old forum boards), hoping that size acceptance would lead to greater acceptance of all bodies, but fearing that it would instead make a divide of the good fatties and the bad fatties, with the former to become more accepted and the latter shunned all the harder. I do kind of feel that this is the situation that is coming to pass.
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:24 PM   #8
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- snip -

Quote:
I think that Fat Acceptance has sort of moved into Body Positivity (or what I call "fat light). Whether it's Tess Holliday or Ashley Graham or GabiFresh, these smaller sized women are still good for the movement, in my opinion. Acceptance of any social/societal group often comes in increments (see civil rights, or the gay rights movement). I guess what I'm saying is that society can be desensitized to fat women in increments, and some of these models are paving the way (hopefully) to see fatter women on TV.

Yes potentially an incremental 'desensitization' or 'normalization could occur, but you could argue it is not so fair for the supersized people to sit around waiting for their turn to finally be accepted by society. But I agree any of this type of media coverage that puts fat people (and yes she is fat, not just curvy), in a positive light is valuable to our cause.


Quote:
The only challenge that I see (from my point of view) is that since these issues are considered more feminist rather than societal issues, some of the women currently repping FA (& to a lesser extent BP) tend to be anti male (F*** the patriarchy) & shut out as well as shout down males who want to assist in advocating for the cause. While I also want to shatter the patriarchy, I'm also aware that we're all PEOPLE first, then we're female or male, fat or thin, black or white or yellow. I also have strong feelings from watching other social movements that every movement that has succeeded has had others outside of the movement advocating with them.
We also need to consider that there are multitudes of fat men out there, who are also discriminated against - yes I know men are not valued by society based on their appearance as much as women. BUT as the societal prejudice against fat people is being more and more justified by harping on the perceived health aspects and you see people saying things like 'no wonder our country's health care costs are becoming unsustainable with all these fat people with all their chronic health issues dragging on the system'. That mindset is going to prejudice people against fat men and women equally. Also, when it comes to FAs (which I don't agree should be 'others' outside the movement): as I said in my earlier post our interests are directly linked to those of the fat people to which we are attracted/partnered. It is as true (maybe more) now as it was when Bill Fabrey et al started NAAFA way back in the 1970s. A key group that can see this whole thing from a unique perspective are heterosexual FFAs. For some reason I get the impression if there was one group that could tie this all together into a coherent unified force it would be FFAs.

Quote:
Now that I went off topic (a little), I have to ask, does anyone think that articles like the one pictured actually DO anything for Fat Acceptance or Body Positivity? Just as important, are their responses more in line with what Loopy has brought up, or are both of them lying to themselves or the rest of the world, as Waldo alluded to?

Finally, as a question for all, does it seem that her sense of self worth is shaped solely by this relationship, and if so, do you think that's healthy?

*EDITED* I wanted to add that my own feeling about the differences between Fat Acceptance & Body Positivity haven't been expressed (yet) in my response. I do think that both have similar, but different goals, and means to reach them. Let's see how this thread goes, and maybe it will come up.
Yes it probably does do at least a marginal benefit to fat acceptance. My issue with it is not so much what they said but what they DID NOT say. Chances are this dude featured in the article appreciates (and more than likely prefers) his fiance's abundant curves. Some even vague reference to that would have sufficed for me, but the way it was portrayed: 'oh my guy is such a kind and enlightened soul, he just loves me for me no matter how I look' comes off pretty fairytailish/delusional. While I had suggested the possibility of selective editing by this feminist/SJW-leaning rag in which the article appeared to avoid taking on the issue directly, I am thinking on further consideration that he is just holding his cards close to his chest on the issue.

Interesting point about whether her self-worth is too tied to her relationship. If she continues to struggle with her body issues and her prince charming dumps her down the road (pretty big chance things go sour at some point), she could be being set up for a major fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad View Post
I have a lot to say on this topic, and keep putting it off for lack of time to write and edit the whole thing ... so I'm giving up on the comprehensive response and am just going to address a couple of points quickly.

- Marlayna, I'm not sure if it was the setting, the photography, or what, but the set didn't do much for me either and generally I love that sort of stuff. I didn't think it was bad, just a bit meh.

- Waldo, I'm picturing a day when we had to move a pile of gravel. Wife put on old scruffy clothes that morning, and by the time we were done we were dusty, sweaty, and that lovely mix that dust and sweat make together. When we were done I swear that were it not for neighbours having a fine view I would have taken her on the back patio because she was just so darned sexy to me. Dirty in a good cause is freaking hot!

And I really don't notice the hair thing much, like if my wife feels she's let things go I won't have noticed at all, and when she just didn't worry about such things for a while when she had a broken wrist (followed by surgery on it a couple of weeks later, to keep things nice and tender for a long time) I think it was a couple of months before I really began to notice. Not a credit to me, just something that doesn't register with me much.

All of which is to say that the comment in that article didn't make me bat an eyelash. To me it just read "he's attracted to me even when I've not made a bit effort to present myself well" to which my thought was "Well duh, you are sexy to him, you'll be sexy to him at all times." Seems normal in my world.

- My biggest regret about such articles is that they are still generally limited to size 16-18 (American sizing) type women. I remember speculating about the future of size acceptance a long time ago (on the old forum boards), hoping that size acceptance would lead to greater acceptance of all bodies, but fearing that it would instead make a divide of the good fatties and the bad fatties, with the former to become more accepted and the latter shunned all the harder. I do kind of feel that this is the situation that is coming to pass.
I look forward to seeing the more detailed thoughts that you alluded to soon. I get what you are saying about still finding your mate attractive even when they are not dolled up and may be sweaty, dirty, disheveled, etc. But the key being that you are inherently attracted to that person in the first place. Now that I read that article again, I realize part of the problem may just be that the young lady is not very articulate and was somewhat blathering on with things that maybe she thought would sound good. Consider two statements from her in the article:
1: "He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look, that I’m beautiful regardless."
2: "We have been able to inspire society to believe that who they are and what they look like is enough to be truly loved"

In the first statement, she says it doesn't matter how she looks - he loves her anyway. The second statement she is saying something about "who they are AND what they look like is enough to be truly loved". Then again there may have been an error with the word 'not' having been accidentally left out of that second statement. Yes who you are is what makes someone love you, BUT how you look is generally what gives you the chance to get that other person to know you as a person in the first place.

I TOTALLY agree that we are going into a situation of divergence in the cause of size/fat acceptance. The 'small fats' are making inroads and we are even starting to see more medical data showing their health outcomes (women at least) are actually pretty good. The supersized people are being left in the dust, and as I mentioned above, the shunning of fat people over the health issues and how it may be a detriment to society is possibly making it worse than ever. For example when one of these prominent plus-sized models is interviewed they typically have tossed at them this question along the lines of "but aren't you promoting obesity / unhealthy lifestyle". While they may dance around the topic and say things such as 'oh but I exercise and eat well, my body just naturally is this size', it is much easier to do when you are size 16 than when you are size 26.
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Old 09-23-2017, 02:27 AM   #9
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This is one of these FA-threads that fundamentally annoys me as a smaller fat woman in several ways.

Seriously - every man who loves a woman who wears more than a single digit US size is a FA??? A closeted one who has to be pulled out by the true, well-meaning FAs?? Is being an FA or a non FA the only categories there are?

Being so monodimensional and immediately categorizing people - mainly women - and situation gives you a highly distorted perspective on reality.

Bottom line though, this means that the FA's here have totally embraced society's weight standards that any woman over BMI 20 is "fat" and needs to be "accepted".

In contrast, the guy in the story probably is just a regular one who has his own definition of size and beauty on the woman he loves - no more and no less.

And the here presented line of argument is a complete misunderstanding of what the "Body Positivity" movement is all about. It's about extending the definition of what is a "normal" size of a woman. That it is not normal, especially for women >5'8" to fit into size <6. That a healthy, attractive body and person is not limited to that narrow size range. That a size US 18 does not constitute unhealthy obesity.

As long as "fat" starts at the latest at size US 12 - then fat acceptance doesn't stand a chance - especially not if it's vocal FA precursors have internalized this line of thinking.
If everything up to about a size US 18-20 is normal - only then does more acceptance for even more weight stand a chance.
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:15 AM   #10
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Me and my guy have been together for nearly a decade - the times he gets randy and hot to trot are when I am what he calls "naturally beautiful and sensual". Not when i put on makeup and shave. Not when i put on a hot dress. It's when i have my hair up in a messy bun, am leaning in the counter, and smile at him absently.

Not all men are ruled by sex hormones to an overwhelming degree. My hubby doesn't notice when i go up or down a size, and he only notices if i havn't shaved if its that length that burns when you rub against it. (He jokingly said years ago to either shave it or let it grow out because the stubble hurts). What he finds sexy is be being myself - not being thin, or fat. Not being naked or dressed up. (I like being naked to the point he joked seeing me in clothes is hot because it's different.)

I've been out, my hair was messy from the wind and my eye makeup smudged. When i was outraged and demanded why he didn't tell me i looked terrible he blinked and asked what i meant. He doesn't go "oh, she has a piece of hair sticking up. So unsexy." Or go "damn, i wanted to have sex but that little smudge of eye makeup is a turnoff" or "hmm she is wearing her fat pants, guess that's ick".

What turns him off?
When i am aggressively horny (unfortunate, because well...)
My period (stupid monthly revenge for not having a baby!)

Other than that, yeah, he honesty doesn't really care about small changes in my appearance.
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:20 AM   #11
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[COLOR=navy]

The 'small fats' are making inroads and we are even starting to see more medical data showing their health outcomes (women at least) are actually pretty good.
For a (IMO) thorough, well-conducted study see the article by Flegal et al. in the January 2013 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association. It is actually a review of over 700 studies on the relationship between BMI and mortality rate, involving more than 2000 subjects, and you can look it up on the JAMA website.
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Old 09-23-2017, 10:25 AM   #12
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This is one of these FA-threads that fundamentally annoys me as a smaller fat woman in several ways.

Seriously - every man who loves a woman who wears more than a single digit US size is a FA??? A closeted one who has to be pulled out by the true, well-meaning FAs?? Is being an FA or a non FA the only categories there are?

Being so monodimensional and immediately categorizing people - mainly women - and situation gives you a highly distorted perspective on reality.

Bottom line though, this means that the FA's here have totally embraced society's weight standards that any woman over BMI 20 is "fat" and needs to be "accepted".

In contrast, the guy in the story probably is just a regular one who has his own definition of size and beauty on the woman he loves - no more and no less.

And the here presented line of argument is a complete misunderstanding of what the "Body Positivity" movement is all about. It's about extending the definition of what is a "normal" size of a woman. That it is not normal, especially for women >5'8" to fit into size <6. That a healthy, attractive body and person is not limited to that narrow size range. That a size US 18 does not constitute unhealthy obesity.

As long as "fat" starts at the latest at size US 12 - then fat acceptance doesn't stand a chance - especially not if it's vocal FA precursors have internalized this line of thinking.
If everything up to about a size US 18-20 is normal - only then does more acceptance for even more weight stand a chance.
You make some good points, but you are a little off base in a couple of areas. While this thread was started by an FA (me), it should be more about how this body positivity campaign relates to true size acceptance and whether it is benefiting all those above society's cutoff for 'normal' weight. You stated that as a BMI 20 but the number is actual 25. You are 100% right that not all men whose desired body shape in a woman extends past single digit dress size are 'FAs'. I recall a study from a few years back which showed that the majority of men actually preferred the more voluptuous size 10-14 body. However for the majority of men, getting up into the upper teens in dress size with the accompanying fat rolls and big thighs/butt with abundant cellulite (as the girl in the article) will be considered not sexy anymore. Just go to an article about one of these famous plus-size models like Ashley Graham (size 14-16) or Hunter McGrady (size 18) and look at the reader comments. You will find multiple comments left by men (and a few women) about what huge fatties they are and how they are walking health timebombs (or will be as they get older). Those comments will be greeted with much agreement and dozens to hundreds of thumbs up.

You mentioned a monodimensional mentality about there being only FAs and nonFAs. No it is more complex than that. In general, men have ranges of female body shape and size that turns them on. A few will only like the skinny women (dress size in single digits), many will be equally attracted to women around the middle ranges (say size 8-14). A sizable but smaller number will prefer a woman 'with some meat on her bones' (say size 12-18). Are this category FA's? I would say yes, but just as there are small BBWs (which you called yourself), there are FAs who prefer smaller fat women and are not interested in SSBBW. Maybe calling them something other than 'FA' would help clarify what it is we are talking about. And then we have the guys we more traditionally think of as FAs, whose preference goes into the SSBBW range. So men's preference ranges will be something of a Bell-shaped distribution, which should be a good thing since that roughly correlates with the distribution of body sizes in the ladies (God created someone for everyone).

And it is not a matter of FAs or fat people having internalized the idea that fat starts at size 12. This is the societal view - we are dealing with the hand we have been given. Denial is not going to help anyone. And that was my bone to pick with the article in the present discussion. You said: "In contrast, the guy in the story probably is just a regular one who has his own definition of size and beauty on the woman he loves - no more and no less." I say he probably fits into that category of 'FAs' who likes the woman with a little meat on their bones, and acknowledgment of that would be helpful to the cause. But all we can do is speculate. For all we know he is really into SSBBW, but is going with that small fat woman because she can 'pass' for 'normal'. At the same time a guy that enters such a relationship may be anticipating his wife gaining weight over the years. Those stealth FAs are an interesting bunch.

Your argument really speaks to Tad's point about the potential for the smaller 'good' fatties becoming more accepted while those who are larger are further ostracized. The same could be said about the men attracted/partnered to these women. It seems you want to be seen as 'normal' by having societal range of normal increased to include you. But do you actually care about the lot of those much larger than you? From the tone of your post, I am doubtful.

So I would say your thinking may be flawed regarding fat acceptance being doomed unless the normal size is gradually expanded upward. The idea of 'incremental' progress in acceptance is leaving those larger fat people at the back of the line waiting for their chance to be accepted and continuing to be discriminated against (along with those of us who find those larger fat people desirable).

Anyways, I definitely appreciate your thoughts, so thanks for commenting. And I can understand if you as 'a smaller fat woman' may have animosity for FAs. I know it is a slap in the face for many who have been told for many years they are too big to be desired only to discover this group of men for which you are consider 'too skinny'. Yeah the world is a cruel place indeed....


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Originally Posted by Dr. Feelgood View Post
For a (IMO) thorough, well-conducted study see the article by Flegal et al. in the January 2013 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association. It is actually a review of over 700 studies on the relationship between BMI and mortality rate, involving more than 2000 subjects, and you can look it up on the JAMA website.
Yes, that is the exact study I was referring to. Here is a link to an article that discusses it: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...k-8434743.html
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Old 09-23-2017, 03:28 PM   #13
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Aside from the FA discussion, I don't care for this photo shoot, and it has nothing to do with anybody's body.
It's wet and muddy, and too staged to come off as art. JMHO.
Sorry if it's off topic. Carry on.
It seems to be documenting just another day for young lovers in the 'ole swimmin' hole in east Texas, the edge of bayou country.
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:49 AM   #14
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Anyways, I definitely appreciate your thoughts, so thanks for commenting. And I can understand if you as 'a smaller fat woman' may have animosity for FAs. I know it is a slap in the face for many who have been told for many years they are too big to be desired only to discover this group of men for which you are consider 'too skinny'. Yeah the world is a cruel place indeed....
Being patronizing doesn't make your line of argument any stronger or correcter.

It only shows you are ignorant of strategic public communications - even conveying the impression that it's fine with you that all people deemed "fat" today remain ostracized ad extendum.

I wrote BMI 20 because that is the social norm for women, not the medically defined limit of BMI25. Many of the tall so-called plus-size models actually have BMIs within this range - and are constantly fat shamed, denounced for celebrating obesity, etc.

For all people with weight issues who do not share your unrealistic "all-or-nothing" approach it would already be a huge success if the Body Positivity movement succeeded in helping outlaw fat shaming for all "chubbies" of BMI 25. Or maybe even BMI 30 - because evidence is very scarce that this weight range poses any notable health risks.
So fat shaming is finally releaved as how incredibly stupid it really is.

This is a goal which is achievable in a long hard fight - since it has the better arguments on it's side. And because it has more affected people - be it for themselves or their loved ones - who can participate in this fight. Numbers and arguments are there.

That would spare app. 75% of all fat people a life without constant shaming.

And you're against that? Would prefer to accept the enemy stance and keep 100% having to constantly defend themselves?
Especially since it can be realistically assumed that making small fat shaming socially unacceptable would also help a large portion of >BMI 30 people.

I'll be honest - I don't see any positive inroads can be made in the forseeable future for SSBBW/HM-dom - and that is sad.

But wanting to keep progress from so many people just because you can't get 100% of what you want points to a highly questionable motivation, to put it mildly.

Should yours be a wide spread opinion in the FA movement, then it starkly elucidates why fat acceptance has made so negligible progress over the past decades.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:35 PM   #15
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Being patronizing doesn't make your line of argument any stronger or correcter.

It only shows you are ignorant of strategic public communications - even conveying the impression that it's fine with you that all people deemed "fat" today remain ostracized ad extendum.

I wrote BMI 20 because that is the social norm for women, not the medically defined limit of BMI25. Many of the tall so-called plus-size models actually have BMIs within this range - and are constantly fat shamed, denounced for celebrating obesity, etc.

For all people with weight issues who do not share your unrealistic "all-or-nothing" approach it would already be a huge success if the Body Positivity movement succeeded in helping outlaw fat shaming for all "chubbies" of BMI 25. Or maybe even BMI 30 - because evidence is very scarce that this weight range poses any notable health risks.
So fat shaming is finally releaved as how incredibly stupid it really is.

This is a goal which is achievable in a long hard fight - since it has the better arguments on it's side. And because it has more affected people - be it for themselves or their loved ones - who can participate in this fight. Numbers and arguments are there.

That would spare app. 75% of all fat people a life without constant shaming.

And you're against that? Would prefer to accept the enemy stance and keep 100% having to constantly defend themselves?
Especially since it can be realistically assumed that making small fat shaming socially unacceptable would also help a large portion of >BMI 30 people.

I'll be honest - I don't see any positive inroads can be made in the forseeable future for SSBBW/HM-dom - and that is sad.

But wanting to keep progress from so many people just because you can't get 100% of what you want points to a highly questionable motivation, to put it mildly.

Should yours be a wide spread opinion in the FA movement, then it starkly elucidates why fat acceptance has made so negligible progress over the past decades.
I've always held onto my feeling that we're people first, then we're all the other stuff that helps make us who we are. I've never particularly cared for the term "Fat Admirer" for several reasons. First, I don't admire fat. The women that I have a physical attraction to happen to BE fat. The other reason is that so many shitty guys that I've met over the years who are also attracted to fat women give the term a negative connotation. The final reason is that in discussing fat acceptance over the years, using the FA acronym often causes confusion, and often requires clarification.

I've always thought that the goal of Fat Acceptance has been protecting the rights and improving the quality of life for fat people. It sounds simple, but it was the premise that NAAFA was built on.

I think the waters have been muddied for both Fat Acceptance & The Fat Admirer group over the years.

Obviously these aren't FACTS, just thoughts of mine from my years around here, and many other places. There are still a lot of what I consider to be more traditional Fat Acceptance leaders, people like Marilyn Wann come to mind. Their goal doesn't deviate much from the original pillars of the movement.

The rise of the internet however, has created some new groups that have broadened the scope of fat acceptance. Many of the women in that group are smaller, many of them fashion bloggers and models. From where I sit, a lot of them catch heat from other people in the movement because they're smaller. Some are called "thin fat", others call them "big fines". Yes, some of these terms were brought about by Fat Admirers, but the fact is the terms have stuck, and I think it's caused divisiveness within the movement. I've also seen really big women feel marginalized as well, because they don't see people creating fashion for THEIR size.

The gay movement of the 70s and 80s was all inclusive. So was the black civil rights movement. Can we say that about the Fat Acceptance Movement? I've heard that what's known as the Size Acceptance Movement has been more inclusive, but that's an entirely different discussion.

Knowing some of the veterans of the Fat Acceptance Movement, I have heard that many of the men who attended NAAFA and other events over the years weren't always there to advocate for the movement. I don't know, because I wasn't participating during those years, but if they were there for nefarious reasons, then not much has changed for motivations for them.

The thing for me is this. Over the years, the guy's side of this has become very sexually charged. This is the only movement where that has happened. Even the gay rights movement removed virtually all sexuality from their rallies, etc. Think about what you see in Fat Acceptance today. Any coverage of it almost never centers around protests like NAAFA did back in the day. The coverage usually takes place at a bash, and the coverage usually extends to hearing guys gush on about how hot the women look to them. While there's absolutely nothing wrong with that on the surface, where is the fat/size positive coverage coming from?

I think the one thing that has always stood out during my time around these parts has been that if this movement is going to succeed, it has to have people who are 100% committed to the movement, and that it has to remove all sexuality from it, because weight bias (no matter how small or large you are) is a SOCIAL issue.
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:50 PM   #16
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:17 PM   #17
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“He loves me for who I am, and for who I make him want to become. He has always told me that he doesn’t care how I look, that I’m beautiful regardless.”
There is one thing I want to point out here. Whether this claim is actually true or not, the fact is that it does not, in any way, represent body positivity. Body positivity doesn't come from ignoring the body in favor of some other factor. It comes from acknowledging the body's positive qualities, even when the majority refuses to do so, and nowhere in this quote, or the attitude it conveys, is that standpoint shown.

The claim that all women have a beauty of their own is one that I can stand behind. I can't appreciate the beauty of every last woman in the world, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. However, when I tell someone that I don't care about their physical appearance, that's not being positive about said appearance. It's like standing by the Grand Canyon, and asking what's so special about it, or focusing mainly on the geology in the area.

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I think there is a twisted agenda out there to push this unrealistic idea
The idea that men, as a rule, can and should focus on relationships from a purely non-physical standpoint, thereby making it unnecessary for women to come to grips with their own physical strengths and weaknesses, or to accept (even enjoy) that their physical qualities make men happy? If this is what you mean, I think you're right. I have no trouble with the idea of my qualities (physical, mental and emotional) pleasing women, and I don't see why they would have a problem with their qualities being the same.

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FACT: men are driven by their visual attraction to the female form. FACT: not all men prefer the same thing. FACT: there is someone for (damn near) everyone. Anything else is fairytale nonsense or wishful thinking.
In order for something to be a fact, it must be both observable, and true in all cases. I think that #3 is far from observable, and #1 is not true in all cases. For me, for instance, I'm driven more by my tactile feelings than my visual ones. I would say #2 is a fact, however. Pretty obviously so.

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The door is being opened a bit, but we need to somehow get there and kick it open all the way. The more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not so much a matter of fat acceptance but rather a matter of FA acceptance. Once FAs are accepted by society as legit, fat people will be correspondingly accepted as well. We have had it backwards all this time. Then again, I could just be off my rocker
In a certain sense, I think this is right. A person can "accept" fat by just acknowledging its existence and normality, and still think it's horrible and something to be avoided or reduced. However, if you accept that Fat Appreciation is acceptable, you, by extension, imply that there is nothing bad about fatness. This has been in the back of my thoughts for a few days. It's a "chicken and egg" question.

Of course, neither one will ever be accepted, as long as the focus is put on ignoring the body, as in this article.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:34 PM   #18
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Being so monodimensional and immediately categorizing people - mainly women - and situation gives you a highly distorted perspective on reality.
I wonder if you have people you don't find attractive, Miss.

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Originally Posted by agouderia View Post
Bottom line though, this means that the FA's here have totally embraced society's weight standards that any woman over BMI 20 is "fat" and needs to be "accepted".
I haven't. I reject the BMI scale utterly, and even if I didn't, I would still find 20 to be pretty thin.

I'm not sure if you meant to say that some people don't need acceptance, so I won't address that point unless I hear clarification from you. I don't like straw men.

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the guy in the story probably is just a regular one who has his own definition of size and beauty on the woman he loves - no more and no less.
This is entirely possible. Just as there are people who are completely asexual, so there are people for whom appearance means nothing. They're uncommon, but they do exist. I met one in a previous job I worked at. For all I know, this man could be one.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:08 PM   #19
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Being patronizing doesn't make your line of argument any stronger or correcter.
That's not "patronizing," Miss. It's "polite."

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Originally Posted by agouderia View Post
It only shows you are ignorant of strategic public communications - even conveying the impression that it's fine with you that all people deemed "fat" today remain ostracized ad extendum.
You might actually read what a person says before deciding what impressions they convey, Miss.

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For all people with weight issues who do not share your unrealistic "all-or-nothing" approach it would already be a huge success if the Body Positivity movement succeeded in helping outlaw fat shaming for all "chubbies" of BMI 25. Or maybe even BMI 30 - because evidence is very scarce that this weight range poses any notable health risks.
So fat shaming is finally releaved as how incredibly stupid it really is.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that on the evidence side of things, it's already quite obvious that fat shaming is incredibly stupid, and that there's no good evidence that weight alone, in isolation from other factors, poses any health risks. The reason why these lies have been spread so far is not because of evidence, but because of cultural bias, and biases are rarely effected strongly by evidence, because the majority of biased people don't pay attention to, or understand the evidence.

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This is a goal which is achievable in a long hard fight - since it has the better arguments on it's side. And because it has more affected people - be it for themselves or their loved ones - who can participate in this fight. Numbers and arguments are there.
This definitely smacks of a sort of "let me get mine, and then to blazes with you," mentality, Miss. You demonstrate, in every post I've seen, no concern at all for more extreme cases, or those who care about them, so I don't feel compelled to sympathize with you because of the dictates of justice. If anyone can be treated unjustly, everyone can be.

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That would spare app. 75% of all fat people a life without constant shaming.
I don't believe this is true. The only thing that would happen would be that bullying would be frowned upon and denounced by the broader society in an isolated number of cases. However, because people have free will, they would still bully. It's just that there would be protection for them.

However, the problem I see here, as an FA, a fat man, a nerd and a Christian, is the same as the problem I saw during the "acceptance" of homosexuals in a cultural sense over the course of my life. Look at the cafeteria in the lunch room of any American school for an example of what I mean. Kids sit at tables, dividing up into groups, and basically remain isolated from each other. There are a lot of tables, and some of them contain relatively-normal groups of kids, but there are always two types of tables that don't. The tables for the popular kids, and the tables of the bully targets.

At one point, homosexual boys, if they dared to reveal their real feelings, were sitting at the table with the bully targets; the people who the bullies recognized as different enough to be easy to pick on. Now, they're not there anymore. They're sitting at the table with the popular kids. Now, say you're right, and this same thing happened to moderate-sized people, for the purposes of this thought experiment.

None of this changes the dynamic as a whole, and someone always takes your place at that target table. What did those children do, once they'd secured their place at the table of the popular kids? Did they work from within, to improve the treatment of the nerds, the fat and the disabled? Far from it. In fact, many of them now pick on the targets just as viciously, if not more so, than their predecessors did.

No one deserves to be a bully. No one should sit at that table with the popular kids. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Instead, each person should be assured, by their parents, relatives and teachers, that they are valuable and special, with enormous potential and a beauty all their own, but that they must work to bring it out and discover their strengths, finding people who can appreciate them.

No matter what, we live in a world where people refuse to accept that it's okay for others to disagree with them on aesthetic matters. As long as this is the case, people will need to defend themselves, and even if it ceases to be the case, people will need to work hard to find someone who shares their positions and feelings. However, the number of people endorsed by our fundamentally-flawed system is irrelevant. It is fundamentally-flawed, and shifting its perceptions by a hundred or so pounds won't change that.

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I'll be honest - I don't see any positive inroads can be made in the forseeable future for SSBBW/HM-dom - and that is sad.
That is sad. Why don't you see that?
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:44 PM   #20
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The thing for me is this. Over the years, the guy's side of this has become very sexually charged. This is the only movement where that has happened. Even the gay rights movement removed virtually all sexuality from their rallies, etc. Think about what you see in Fat Acceptance today. Any coverage of it almost never centers around protests like NAAFA did back in the day. The coverage usually takes place at a bash, and the coverage usually extends to hearing guys gush on about how hot the women look to them.
I find it curious that you think homosexual rallies contain nothing sexual in them. Have you ever been to a gay pride parade?

But in any case, I'm afraid this point about sexuality is one that I must firmly disagree with you on. The nature of the problem is that fat, as such, is treated by businesses and governments as a bad thing, and that all people who possess it are fair game for discrimination or mistreatment, as a way to "convince" them to give it up. This attitude also legitimizes the abuse of fat people, as a whole, in the public square. The core of the issue is about fatness, and whether or not it is actually the horrible plague that society has made it out to be.

It's all well and good to hold picket signs and protest its treatment as such, but at the end of the day, unless you have some reasons behind the positions you hold, all the protests in the world will just be discounted as the ramblings of nutcases by the wider public. Now, the question is; how do you present your reasons? Well, that depends on what you're reasoning against, so we need to ask ourselves; "what is it about fatness that is being used as a reason to discriminate against it?"

The largest reason usually given in public is "health," but this reason itself has no strong evidence to back it up, and some few good souls in the "movement," as you call it, have devoted themselves mainly to addressing this central issue; to cutting the legs out from under their opponents at every encounter. As long as this tack is taken in some sense, whether it's taken by a man or a woman, a fat person or a thin one, doesn't matter. We're dealing with matters of science and its limits, and for that, good reasons can be presented, and rules followed. Here, there need not be any division between women and their admirers, and I think this is the topic to which the "movement" should devote itself most strongly. Really, it's the only one that matters.

After all, if anyone said they were totally justified in treating fat people like garbage, or paying them less because they didn't like the way they looked, or weren't attracted to them, or because they value some social convention that's common in the world today, they would immediately look like a tremendous jerk for holding that position. Only the health issue is important to the success or failure of the enemy's argument, and it will effect all fat people to the same degree.

Where the social element comes in is merely in how people perceive fat people in their daily lives, on the ground, and here, protests really don't do any good. A person who is constantly out protesting and complaining is likely to be viewed by your man/woman in the street as just some malcontent. It's the people who are living happy, productive, normal lives who seem, to their friends and neighbors, to be acceptable; even likable, and if you like someone who holds an uncommon view, you're much more likely to be accepting of that view in the future.

The success of any movement happens only because people are convinced that the movement is right, or will help good people live their lives. This means that you will need the help of every person who is able, by their lives and actions, to convince others. FAs are quite capable of this, just by sharing their experiences and feelings with their friends, and reminding them that their own feelings aren't the only ones that exist. Whether or not you like the focus, this can open the minds and hearts of decent men, whose help every movement needs. No movement will ever be carried on less than half of the population.

Personally, I'm convinced that many of the cries of "sexualization!" come from those, within the movement, who are still not comfortable with the idea that the movement really does center around their bodies, and are trying to avoid that reality by attacking someone who's unlikely to fight back.
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Old 09-28-2017, 06:24 PM   #21
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IMHO the biggest thing you can do is look past appearance. I got great respect for anybody accomplishing that. Taht's what I hope I strive for, if it ever comes to that. I don't want to be so shallow. We can do better.

Body positivity is probably more about being able to appreciate what's actually important in this world.

And OP, you're probably right. But I think looking at the person--not the body--defines the apex of maturity.

EDIT: I don't want to cover everytyhing you wrote in your OP right now.
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Old 09-28-2017, 07:08 PM   #22
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Quantumbits, some may completely look past appearance, but I think a more common level to achieve is to enjoy those parts of appearance that you appreciate, and not worry much about the rest. Love the shy smile, stop noticing the crooked nose, notice the fat that they have, not the fat that they don't have, etc. Associated with that is the need to possibly shift your focus as your partner's body changes over time.
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Old 09-28-2017, 11:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I find it curious that you think homosexual rallies contain nothing sexual in them. Have you ever been to a gay pride parade?

But in any case, I'm afraid this point about sexuality is one that I must firmly disagree with you on. The nature of the problem is that fat, as such, is treated by businesses and governments as a bad thing, and that all people who possess it are fair game for discrimination or mistreatment, as a way to "convince" them to give it up. This attitude also legitimizes the abuse of fat people, as a whole, in the public square. The core of the issue is about fatness, and whether or not it is actually the horrible plague that society has made it out to be.

It's all well and good to hold picket signs and protest its treatment as such, but at the end of the day, unless you have some reasons behind the positions you hold, all the protests in the world will just be discounted as the ramblings of nutcases by the wider public. Now, the question is; how do you present your reasons? Well, that depends on what you're reasoning against, so we need to ask ourselves; "what is it about fatness that is being used as a reason to discriminate against it?"

The largest reason usually given in public is "health," but this reason itself has no strong evidence to back it up, and some few good souls in the "movement," as you call it, have devoted themselves mainly to addressing this central issue; to cutting the legs out from under their opponents at every encounter. As long as this tack is taken in some sense, whether it's taken by a man or a woman, a fat person or a thin one, doesn't matter. We're dealing with matters of science and its limits, and for that, good reasons can be presented, and rules followed. Here, there need not be any division between women and their admirers, and I think this is the topic to which the "movement" should devote itself most strongly. Really, it's the only one that matters.

After all, if anyone said they were totally justified in treating fat people like garbage, or paying them less because they didn't like the way they looked, or weren't attracted to them, or because they value some social convention that's common in the world today, they would immediately look like a tremendous jerk for holding that position. Only the health issue is important to the success or failure of the enemy's argument, and it will effect all fat people to the same degree.

Where the social element comes in is merely in how people perceive fat people in their daily lives, on the ground, and here, protests really don't do any good. A person who is constantly out protesting and complaining is likely to be viewed by your man/woman in the street as just some malcontent. It's the people who are living happy, productive, normal lives who seem, to their friends and neighbors, to be acceptable; even likable, and if you like someone who holds an uncommon view, you're much more likely to be accepting of that view in the future.

The success of any movement happens only because people are convinced that the movement is right, or will help good people live their lives. This means that you will need the help of every person who is able, by their lives and actions, to convince others. FAs are quite capable of this, just by sharing their experiences and feelings with their friends, and reminding them that their own feelings aren't the only ones that exist. Whether or not you like the focus, this can open the minds and hearts of decent men, whose help every movement needs. No movement will ever be carried on less than half of the population.

Personally, I'm convinced that many of the cries of "sexualization!" come from those, within the movement, who are still not comfortable with the idea that the movement really does center around their bodies, and are trying to avoid that reality by attacking someone who's unlikely to fight back.

" A person who is constantly out protesting and complaining is likely to be viewed by your man/woman in the street as just some malcontent."

This is a good point. There is an increased loss of patience from the 'silent majority' with all the social justice warrior activity out there. Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue' and many are just rejecting it out of hand as the cause of a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies. So pushing away FAs, as NAAFA did, has seemed to be detrimental.

I agree with what wrestling guy says that fat acceptance can not be taken seriously as a civil rights issue if its activities devolve into just a big socialization community and it is perceived as such by others. But yes we should be able to enhance the cause if we are able to show that there are indeed well-adjusted people who prefer a fat partner. If it is ok to be fat, it has to be ok for someone to desire that fat person. The two should go 'hand in glove'.

Good point about how people just living their lives and maybe influencing the opinions of theirs friends, family and acquaintances can move the bar. BUT clearly this is not occuring. And it is not as if there are not plenty of men (and women) living their lives alongside a fat partner. Sure not all (or even most) of those are FAs, but a lot are (especially to the extent they may prefer a moderately fat partner). I think we tend to be too close-lipped about how/why it is that we are with that fat partner. Thus my issue with the dude in the article on which this thread is based. You are right that he is not helping a damn thing if he claims he adores his fiance with no regard to her body. Then again he did not ask to be put in the spotlight. It sounds like he may not have even been interviewed for the article, only the woman.

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Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
IMHO the biggest thing you can do is look past appearance. I got great respect for anybody accomplishing that. Taht's what I hope I strive for, if it ever comes to that. I don't want to be so shallow. We can do better.

Body positivity is probably more about being able to appreciate what's actually important in this world.

And OP, you're probably right. But I think looking at the person--not the body--defines the apex of maturity.

EDIT: I don't want to cover everytyhing you wrote in your OP right now.
Yeah in a perfect hypothetical society everyone would not be driven by physical attraction, or desire for personal wealth, prestige, etc. Maybe in 10,000 years we will have evolved to that point. But here in the real world, it seems what you are talking about is simply repressing your desires. That does a disservice to all parties involved. While some women will say they wish they could have a man who loves them for the person they are and not their appearance, many would find a lack of fulfillment if such a scenario actually came to pass. Despite what people may 'think' they want, (almost) everyone instinctively wishes to be desired for their whole being: mind, body and soul. As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for.

And so it comes down to striking an appropriate balance and some compromise in the aspects (physical attraction, sexual compatibility, common values and goals, etc.) that guide who we partner with. That would be my definition of 'maturity', not some silly virtue signalling in which one says they look beyond appearance because they are focused on the more important things. Physical attraction is not everything, but it represents one of the cornerstones of a successful relationship that over time builds out upon that cornerstone. And after some time the building can stand even if that particular cornerstone was removed.
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:24 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by quantumbits View Post
IMHO the biggest thing you can do is look past appearance. I got great respect for anybody accomplishing that. Taht's what I hope I strive for, if it ever comes to that. I don't want to be so shallow. We can do better.

Body positivity is probably more about being able to appreciate what's actually important in this world.
That may be what you'd like to see (or even what some cultural movement going under that name now professes. I don't know if it is this or not,) but it's not what those words mean. "Body" refers quite specifically to the body, and "positivity" means viewing something in a positive light, rather than a negative one, or ignoring it altogether.

It isn't shallow to acknowledge a good thing when it's present. That's perfectly normal.
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Old 09-29-2017, 03:43 AM   #25
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This is a good point. There is an increased loss of patience from the 'silent majority' with all the social justice warrior activity out there. Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue' and many are just rejecting it out of hand as the cause of a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies. So pushing away FAs, as NAAFA did, has seemed to be detrimental.
Yes. I would say that's right, and considering that feminism is, in general, on the decline throughout the West (according to surveys,) I think fat acceptance is stronger when it doesn't go out of its way in that direction. If a cause is to succeed, the proponents of that cause need to be able to present a rational, united front, and so many "extras" have been added on to the fat acceptance movement that it's caused massive division. I think "no men" and "no talking about bodies or beauty" definitely are some of the worst extras you could add.

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I agree with what wrestling guy says that fat acceptance can not be taken seriously as a civil rights issue if its activities devolve into just a big socialization community and it is perceived as such by others. But yes we should be able to enhance the cause if we are able to show that there are indeed well-adjusted people who prefer a fat partner. If it is ok to be fat, it has to be ok for someone to desire that fat person. The two should go 'hand in glove'.

Good point about how people just living their lives and maybe influencing the opinions of theirs friends, family and acquaintances can move the bar. BUT clearly this is not occuring. And it is not as if there are not plenty of men (and women) living their lives alongside a fat partner. Sure not all (or even most) of those are FAs, but a lot are (especially to the extent they may prefer a moderately fat partner). I think we tend to be too close-lipped about how/why it is that we are with that fat partner. Thus my issue with the dude in the article on which this thread is based. You are right that he is not helping a damn thing if he claims he adores his fiance with no regard to her body. Then again he did not ask to be put in the spotlight. It sounds like he may not have even been interviewed for the article, only the woman.
As I see it, what we need on the social front is two-pronged. We need men who are willing to be honest with themselves, and others, about their appreciation for fatness, while also being perfectly respectable and living normal lives, and we need fat women who are living normal, respectable lives, and also are not only unashamed of being fat (without necessarily coming off as aggressive,) but perhaps even enjoy certain aspects of their fatness in their own lives, and are capable of enjoying all the elements of life that thin women enjoy (such as the company of friends, neighbors and people who are capable of recognizing their beauty in an honest and respectful way.)

The key is to be as civilized and well-informed on the issues as possible. The more polite and civilized you are, the worse your detractors will look. The more well-informed you are on the issues, the worse you can make their position look, without even half trying.

That said, there are situations where these tactics don't work, though they are few in number. Namely, I think it would be a bad idea for any fat person to go on television right now.

I say this, not only because the media is, right now, controlled by those who hate fatness, and will deliberately cast it in a bad light, but also because on television, all that people will see is image. A television audience doesn't know the way you live your life, what your family is like, or what you do for a job. All they're going to see is fat when they look at their TV screens, and that's not likely to make a positive impression on people who aren't already FAs and don't already like having you around. Personal experiences of people in our lives are, I think, the way to go.

I'm not saying I've never seen a fat person successfully defend themselves in a televised debate. However, I've been an FA all my life, so my perceptions of their success may not be shared by most people.
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