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Old 09-29-2017, 04:59 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by waldo View Post

This is a good point. There is an increased loss of patience from the 'silent majority' with all the social justice warrior activity out there. Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue' and many are just rejecting it out of hand as the cause of a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies. So pushing away FAs, as NAAFA did, has seemed to be detrimental.
Body positivity is about accepting your body as it is. How a person feels about their body is not dependent on how a partner thinks about it. It is independent of how others view your body, including FAs. This is a feminist issue. Has it been reduced to a feminist issue, or is it mostly getting embracement from the feminist community more than any other?

Referring to the community who embraces body positivity as “a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies” doesn’t really help the cause.
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:46 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
Body positivity is about accepting your body as it is. How a person feels about their body is not dependent on how a partner thinks about it. It is independent of how others view your body, including FAs. This is a feminist issue. Has it been reduced to a feminist issue, or is it mostly getting embracement from the feminist community more than any other?

Referring to the community who embraces body positivity as “a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies” doesn’t really help the cause.
Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue? Are there not multitudes of fat men in our society? They also are discriminated against by society for being fat. I think the discrimination that fat men receive in society is downplayed because it does not fit the feminist narrative. I would argue that feminism has driven such a wedge into what was a once promising fat acceptance movement, that we may never recover any of the momentum it once had.

And you may have some reading comprehension issues. I wrote: "Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue' and many are just rejecting it out of hand as the cause of a bunch of fringe, man-hating harpies."

By 'many' I am referring to the majority of people NOT myself. As an FA, I have full support for and stake in fat acceptance.

Body positivity as an aspect of fat acceptance is legitimate. Certainly to accept one's own body is step 1. Obviously, you shouldn't expect to be accepted/liked by others if you don't accept/like yourself. But ultimately we all (other than a rare few) desire validation from others.
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:40 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by waldo View Post
Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue? Are there not multitudes of fat men in our society?
Yes indeed. There are far more fat men than there are fat feminists. However, there's also another group of people being ignored here, who is also greater in number than the fat feminists; fat women who are not feminists. Just being fat doesn't obligate you to be a feminist, nor is feminism implied by the fact that you're a woman, or by the belief in gender equality. Only 20% of American women are self-professed feminists; fewer in other countries, so if only feminists are permitted to take the side of fat acceptance, it will always fail, due to having much too few people behind it.

Also...

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Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
Body positivity is about accepting your body as it is.
See, again, this is not really what these words mean. I "accept" that millions of people were killed in the early 1940s, but that doesn't mean I think that fact is "positive." The definition that you present here would fit better with the general terms of "body acceptance" or "body tolerance."
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Old 09-30-2017, 07:23 AM   #29
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This response is to both Waldo and TwoSwords. I flip back and forth between you to for order of logical discussion.

Just to back track, operational definitions are required because of the way “feminism” and “Body Positivity” are being used in this thread. You don’t have to read the whole page of each of these, but at least the first paragraph. You could choose to say that feminism and body positive movement are unrelated, but it will be both misleading and likely to alienate people who know a lot about the issue.

Feminism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

Body Positive Movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Positive_Movement

Waldo by your own words, “Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue'."


"Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue?"
Because it deals with a prejudiced group of people, and is strongly embraced by feminists. It’s that simple. That doesn’t mean others cannot take up the issue as well. However feminists are more likely to take it up.

"Are there not multitudes of fat men in our society? They also are discriminated against by society for being fat. I think the discrimination that fat men receive in society is downplayed because it does not fit the feminist narrative."

They are. This thread has mostly ignored them. Fat men are also receiving prejudice. Feminism covers them as well. Feminism is not exclusive to just women, but that is a very common (pop culture) misconception.


TwoSwords:
"Yes indeed. There are far more fat men than there are fat feminists. However, there's also another group of people being ignored here, who is also greater in number than the fat feminists; fat women who are not feminists. Just being fat doesn't obligate you to be a feminist, nor is feminism implied by the fact that you're a woman, or by the belief in gender equality. Only 20% of American women are self-professed feminists; fewer in other countries, so if only feminists are permitted to take the side of fat acceptance, it will always fail, due to having much too few people behind it."

I have also seen article about the “decline” of feminism. It is correct that fewer women want to use the label “feminist” to describe themselves. However when asking women how many of them believe in “women’s right” a very high percentage, say they do. Not stating the number because I don’t remember it. A lot of people don’t realize they are the same thing, or don’t want the label but want what it’s goals are. The title of the thread fits what I wrote, regardless of how you feel about it.

Waldo:
"I think the discrimination that fat men receive in society is downplayed because it does not fit the feminist narrative. I would argue that feminism has driven such a wedge into what was a once promising fat acceptance movement, that we may never recover any of the momentum it once had."

I would argue against that statement. To engage a larger audience, authors want to not use divisive words when talking about an issue (ignoring politics). To get feminist issues out, it is usually not pointed out that feminist issues are being discussed. Where are most of the outlets discussing size related issues? Usually they are outlets geared toward women. You may have noticed that there are few articles covering plus size men exclusively.
This idea that you must choose feminism or body positive movement, is at best ignorant. They are not opposite or opposing forces. Nor is it a bad thing if you realize your values align with a feminist.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:22 AM   #30
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Man, I hope I don't get hate for this post, but as someone who thinks of Truth as his first love, I just want this to get out, though in keeping with the terms of the topic, I'll try to keep it cultural and social in subject-matter, rather than discussing any political or economic topics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
Just to back track, operational definitions are required because of the way “feminism” and “Body Positivity” are being used in this thread. You don’t have to read the whole page of each of these, but at least the first paragraph.
Frankly, there's a disconnect between the dictionary definition of "feminism," and the self-professed "feminists" of today. What they mean by "feminist" is at odds with what the dictionary means.

Now, no professional turns to wikipedia as a reference for research papers, and here, they're presenting a definition of "feminism" which is contrary to what many self-professed "feminists" of today would hold. This is especially the case with some of the leaders in the movement, but in truth, I've never seen any feminist claim that another self-professed "feminist" actually isn't one because they hate men too much, and therefore don't believe in authentic gender equality.

If you want to understand what feminism has been, and what it is now, you need to look back at its history. During World War II, various icons and images were used to encourage in women a spirit of determination to work hard and succeed for the sake of their country, and to take pride in their ability to do what needed to be done. Probably the most prominent and famous of these was Rosie the Riveter, and although the term "feminism" was still a long way from becoming prominent, this attitude of the pride of the female worker drove the need for equality in the workplace, which would become a problem once the surviving men returned from the war. Suddenly, there were male workers again, and it was harder for women to find steady jobs like the ones they'd had. A struggle began for economic equality that was still going on when, in 1963, Betty Friedan wrote her well-known book; "The Feminine Mystique."

Friedan's book showed an image of women that had rarely been stressed up to that point; that they were like sleeping princesses, not contributing enough to society, because they were forbidden from doing the hard work that men did. To this day, Friedan is often credited as the spark that started modern feminism, and the people doing that crediting couldn't be more wrong.

The problem with Friedan's book is that, while many people read it, and liked it, the ideas it proposed never garnered the widespread cultural support of later feminist movements, because they focused on jobs, tasks and responsibilities; things that are hard and take effort. Friedan recognized the work that was involved in achievement and equality and embraced that effort, and while many understood her points, and agreed with them, there just weren't enough feminists who wanted to shoulder an additional burden in pursuit of the equality that she preached. They didn't want to be told that they weren't doing enough for society. They wanted to be told that they were victims. We know this because of what happened next.

After the 1960s, feminist literature almost never complained about the housewife who was kept as a pet by her overworked husband. Instead, they focused on depicting all women, everywhere, as saintly, and horribly-abused slaves to men, who needed to be paid back for the accumulated wrongs of dozens of generations' worth of inequality. More recently, feminist literature has become more and more sexually-focused, stressing the sexual license of women to do what they please, whenever they please, in a sexual sense (a license that is not sustainable for men,) and in some extreme cases, expressing open hostility towards the whole family structure and notion of marriage, (because keeping a vow restricts your license.) I've never seen any body of literature more hostile to children and childbearing than modern feminist literature.

Of course, this message, that you are a victim, and you deserve more than you have at someone else's expense, is by far the most common one in self-professed "feminist" circles of today, and it's easy to see why. It takes away all the psychological burden of self-examination and reflection on your own actions, by claiming that someone else is at fault for all of your problems and grievances, and it gives you something to focus on, to distract you from your responsibilities to your fellow man and to society as a whole. Let's face it; people in general are more likely to support a movement that says they deserve a break today, even when important things need to be done. You could, of course, say that this is just some immature people, with a faulty understanding of what the movement is all about, yet I've never heard any feminist leader denounce this immature behavior, in spite of its prevalence.

While Webster still defines feminism as a belief in the equality of the sexes, almost no feminists of this type have any sort of voice in the public square today. Indeed, many of them would be seen as traitors to claim that men shouldn't be made to jump through hoops that women aren't, or that women shouldn't have an unfair advantage over men in the hiring decisions of companies or universities.

A person who conformed to the dictionary definition of a feminist would not be welcomed by modern-day "feminists" in any sort of practical way. I should know. I believe strongly in gender equality, which is why I think fat acceptance should be a movement for both sexes; not just one of them. According to the dictionary, that makes me a feminist. Am I?

As for the article about body positivity, the neutrality of its content is disputed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
I have also seen article about the “decline” of feminism. It is correct that fewer women want to use the label “feminist” to describe themselves. However when asking women how many of them believe in “women’s right” a very high percentage, say they do. Not stating the number because I don’t remember it. A lot of people don’t realize they are the same thing, or don’t want the label but want what it’s goals are. The title of the thread fits what I wrote, regardless of how you feel about it.
I believe strongly in gender equality. I don't believe in modern feminism, however, because in practice, it's no longer about that. That's why women are distancing themselves from the word. It's become associated with a group of people who no longer practice "dictionary feminism," as we just discussed.

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Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
Where are most of the outlets discussing size related issues? Usually they are outlets geared toward women. You may have noticed that there are few articles covering plus size men exclusively.
Just because an outlet is geared towards women doesn't make it feminist. In fact, if it's not geared towards both sexes equally, then by the definition in Webster, it can't be feminist.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:18 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by waldo View Post
Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue?
Primarily because womens bodies are judged far more often than men, regardless of size.

There ratio of women to men who are forced to file sexual harassment lawsuits against their employers is quite large. Men rarely get catcalled on the street.

I have a daughter who just turned 30. She recently returned from a business trip to Canada. One of her coworkers at dinner one evening began to comment about another coworker's body, saying that he didn't like her arms because they looked "too masculine" for his tastes. My daughter works out daily, and when she confronted him about his opinions, even as they may relate to her, his answer was "well, that's just the way it is". To me, there's so much wrongness to that.

And I think that's why we need feminism now, though I think that a return to the attitudes of the 70s & 80s feminists might be more effective today. I do agree however, with the statements made that for FA to succeed as a movement, it needs people outside the feminist community to walk with them, and help advocate for them.

I also want to clarify a point that was questioned by Two Swords, who found it interesting that I thought sexuality was absent in the gay rights movement after I said that to succeed, Fat Acceptance must remove sexuality from it. For anyone who thinks that the PRIDE parades of today look like what they did when the first one took place, I would recommend the following article: http://www.history.com/news/how-acti...-pride-parades

Social movements, as several have described here, are about people being treated equitably. Though I think that people have rights to certainly do what they want in their bedrooms without being judged or treated poorly by others for doing so, it really comes down to a rights issue, and I'm of the opinion that bringing the sexual preferences of any of us (be it fat women, fat men, or the people who are attracted to them) simply clouds the issue.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:13 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
Man, I hope I don't get hate for this post, but as someone who thinks of Truth as his first love, I just want this to get out, though in keeping with the terms of the topic, I'll try to keep it cultural and social in subject-matter, rather than discussing any political or economic topics.



Frankly, there's a disconnect between the dictionary definition of "feminism," and the self-professed "feminists" of today. What they mean by "feminist" is at odds with what the dictionary means.

Now, no professional turns to wikipedia as a reference for research papers, and here, they're presenting a definition of "feminism" which is contrary to what many self-professed "feminists" of today would hold. This is especially the case with some of the leaders in the movement, but in truth, I've never seen any feminist claim that another self-professed "feminist" actually isn't one because they hate men too much, and therefore don't believe in authentic gender equality.

If you want to understand what feminism has been, and what it is now, you need to look back at its history. During World War II, various icons and images were used to encourage in women a spirit of determination to work hard and succeed for the sake of their country, and to take pride in their ability to do what needed to be done. Probably the most prominent and famous of these was Rosie the Riveter, and although the term "feminism" was still a long way from becoming prominent, this attitude of the pride of the female worker drove the need for equality in the workplace, which would become a problem once the surviving men returned from the war. Suddenly, there were male workers again, and it was harder for women to find steady jobs like the ones they'd had. A struggle began for economic equality that was still going on when, in 1963, Betty Friedan wrote her well-known book; "The Feminine Mystique."

Friedan's book showed an image of women that had rarely been stressed up to that point; that they were like sleeping princesses, not contributing enough to society, because they were forbidden from doing the hard work that men did. To this day, Friedan is often credited as the spark that started modern feminism, and the people doing that crediting couldn't be more wrong.

The problem with Friedan's book is that, while many people read it, and liked it, the ideas it proposed never garnered the widespread cultural support of later feminist movements, because they focused on jobs, tasks and responsibilities; things that are hard and take effort. Friedan recognized the work that was involved in achievement and equality and embraced that effort, and while many understood her points, and agreed with them, there just weren't enough feminists who wanted to shoulder an additional burden in pursuit of the equality that she preached. They didn't want to be told that they weren't doing enough for society. They wanted to be told that they were victims. We know this because of what happened next.

After the 1960s, feminist literature almost never complained about the housewife who was kept as a pet by her overworked husband. Instead, they focused on depicting all women, everywhere, as saintly, and horribly-abused slaves to men, who needed to be paid back for the accumulated wrongs of dozens of generations' worth of inequality. More recently, feminist literature has become more and more sexually-focused, stressing the sexual license of women to do what they please, whenever they please, in a sexual sense (a license that is not sustainable for men,) and in some extreme cases, expressing open hostility towards the whole family structure and notion of marriage, (because keeping a vow restricts your license.) I've never seen any body of literature more hostile to children and childbearing than modern feminist literature.

Of course, this message, that you are a victim, and you deserve more than you have at someone else's expense, is by far the most common one in self-professed "feminist" circles of today, and it's easy to see why. It takes away all the psychological burden of self-examination and reflection on your own actions, by claiming that someone else is at fault for all of your problems and grievances, and it gives you something to focus on, to distract you from your responsibilities to your fellow man and to society as a whole. Let's face it; people in general are more likely to support a movement that says they deserve a break today, even when important things need to be done. You could, of course, say that this is just some immature people, with a faulty understanding of what the movement is all about, yet I've never heard any feminist leader denounce this immature behavior, in spite of its prevalence.

While Webster still defines feminism as a belief in the equality of the sexes, almost no feminists of this type have any sort of voice in the public square today. Indeed, many of them would be seen as traitors to claim that men shouldn't be made to jump through hoops that women aren't, or that women shouldn't have an unfair advantage over men in the hiring decisions of companies or universities.

A person who conformed to the dictionary definition of a feminist would not be welcomed by modern-day "feminists" in any sort of practical way. I should know. I believe strongly in gender equality, which is why I think fat acceptance should be a movement for both sexes; not just one of them. According to the dictionary, that makes me a feminist. Am I?

As for the article about body positivity, the neutrality of its content is disputed.



I believe strongly in gender equality. I don't believe in modern feminism, however, because in practice, it's no longer about that. That's why women are distancing themselves from the word. It's become associated with a group of people who no longer practice "dictionary feminism," as we just discussed.



Just because an outlet is geared towards women doesn't make it feminist. In fact, if it's not geared towards both sexes equally, then by the definition in Webster, it can't be feminist.

This is not a scholarly paper, research paper, or high school paper. This is an online forum. I chose Wikipedia due to the broad nature of it, I read through it, and it aligned with my preexisting knowledge of both feminism and body positive movement. You decided to ignore it and use Websters dictionary, a two sentence definition for all that feminism encompasses. I still feel two sentences did not really help you. I noticed Websters has nothing for body positive movement, I am guessing this is why you were saying it means something else.

I decided to show this thread to a fat female feminist, my girlfriend, for her perspective. She has a bachelor’s in political science, and is in a feminist book club. So she is very up to date with feminism. This is what she messenged me as a response to your post.

“Feminist philosophy that focuses on the conflict between gender and power, and advocates for the social equality/equity of everyone. Even though it primarily focuses on men/women, feminism is concerned with the equality of everyone. Body acceptance/image/positivity is obviously something that feminist may be concerned with in general.

There's a disconnect between the dictionary definition of feminism and feminist thought now because the dictionary definition is extremely limited. Feminist theory is something that has grown and is constantly being contributed to and discussed, and is varied. Within feminism there's a huge variety of thought and people. But it all boils down to what I described above. His view is extremely narrow

His assertion that any publication not geared towards both men and women equally is by definition not feminist is HILARIOUSLY obtuse
And yeah, all he's done is written his skewed perspective of 20th century white western feminism”
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:15 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
Primarily because womens bodies are judged far more often than men, regardless of size.

There ratio of women to men who are forced to file sexual harassment lawsuits against their employers is quite large. Men rarely get catcalled on the street.

I have a daughter who just turned 30. She recently returned from a business trip to Canada. One of her coworkers at dinner one evening began to comment about another coworker's body, saying that he didn't like her arms because they looked "too masculine" for his tastes. My daughter works out daily, and when she confronted him about his opinions, even as they may relate to her, his answer was "well, that's just the way it is". To me, there's so much wrongness to that.

And I think that's why we need feminism now, though I think that a return to the attitudes of the 70s & 80s feminists might be more effective today. I do agree however, with the statements made that for FA to succeed as a movement, it needs people outside the feminist community to walk with them, and help advocate for them.

I also want to clarify a point that was questioned by Two Swords, who found it interesting that I thought sexuality was absent in the gay rights movement after I said that to succeed, Fat Acceptance must remove sexuality from it. For anyone who thinks that the PRIDE parades of today look like what they did when the first one took place, I would recommend the following article: http://www.history.com/news/how-acti...-pride-parades

Social movements, as several have described here, are about people being treated equitably. Though I think that people have rights to certainly do what they want in their bedrooms without being judged or treated poorly by others for doing so, it really comes down to a rights issue, and I'm of the opinion that bringing the sexual preferences of any of us (be it fat women, fat men, or the people who are attracted to them) simply clouds the issue.
I have to agree. The feminist community by itself can only take the message so far. I think any stagnation that has taken place, is that there isn’t really anyone else picking it up.

When it comes down to it. If fat people are accepted, there would be no issue for FAs.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:25 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
Primarily because womens bodies are judged far more often than men, regardless of size.

There ratio of women to men who are forced to file sexual harassment lawsuits against their employers is quite large. Men rarely get catcalled on the street.
Basically all of this is related to the physical differences between women and men, and the fact that women are skittish around men, due to those differences.

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Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
I have a daughter who just turned 30. She recently returned from a business trip to Canada. One of her coworkers at dinner one evening began to comment about another coworker's body, saying that he didn't like her arms because they looked "too masculine" for his tastes. My daughter works out daily, and when she confronted him about his opinions, even as they may relate to her, his answer was "well, that's just the way it is". To me, there's so much wrongness to that.
That final sentence is conflicted. If something is only the way it is "to you," it can't be "wrong." "Wrongness" implies an objective quality of ethics, which could be supported by evidence. If you'd like to try to support the claim that people having opinions and emotions, or sharing them with others is ethically-wrong, you're certainly free to make the attempt, however.

Now, suppose it were something a bit less innocent than that, and he was being just totally rude, rather than just saying he has a feeling. In that case, feminism is still not needed, because he can be given a stern talking-to, either by the woman, or by any man who cares about her and doesn't like to see her disrespected. However, if he phrased things the way you say he did, it doesn't really sound like disrespect was involved. I can understand being upset at that, but I'm not sure why you'd think it's wrong.

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And I think that's why we need feminism now, though I think that a return to the attitudes of the 70s & 80s feminists might be more effective today. I do agree however, with the statements made that for FA to succeed as a movement, it needs people outside the feminist community to walk with them, and help advocate for them.
I guess my problem here is that I don't see what feminism is expected to accomplish. The existence of feminism neither prevents people from having opinions or emotions, nor does it prevent them from sharing those emotions/opinions. At most, it could lead to people getting upset more often over others who share their emotions/opinions, leading people to become more withdrawn, less social and less tolerant of others, but maybe I'm missing something here.

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Social movements, as several have described here, are about people being treated equitably. Though I think that people have rights to certainly do what they want in their bedrooms without being judged or treated poorly by others for doing so, it really comes down to a rights issue, and I'm of the opinion that bringing the sexual preferences of any of us (be it fat women, fat men, or the people who are attracted to them) simply clouds the issue.
Preferences, however, are different from activities. Preferences don't vanish when you leave the bedroom, nor do aesthetics or standards of beauty. If you're denouncing people who specifically discuss sex as such with regard to this issue, I can understand that. Sex is a private thing between the involved couple, and not something to use as a social bargaining chip. However, it is a mistake to equate all discussion of beauty and the emotions related to the body with sex.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:42 PM   #35
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This response is to both Waldo and TwoSwords. I flip back and forth between you to for order of logical discussion.

Waldo by your own words, “Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue'."

"Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue?"
Because it deals with a prejudiced group of people, and is strongly embraced by feminists. It’s that simple. That doesn’t mean others cannot take up the issue as well. However feminists are more likely to take it up.

"Are there not multitudes of fat men in our society? They also are discriminated against by society for being fat. I think the discrimination that fat men receive in society is downplayed because it does not fit the feminist narrative."

They are. This thread has mostly ignored them. Fat men are also receiving prejudice. Feminism covers them as well. Feminism is not exclusive to just women, but that is a very common (pop culture) misconception.

Waldo:
"I think the discrimination that fat men receive in society is downplayed because it does not fit the feminist narrative. I would argue that feminism has driven such a wedge into what was a once promising fat acceptance movement, that we may never recover any of the momentum it once had."

I would argue against that statement. To engage a larger audience, authors want to not use divisive words when talking about an issue (ignoring politics). To get feminist issues out, it is usually not pointed out that feminist issues are being discussed. Where are most of the outlets discussing size related issues? Usually they are outlets geared toward women. You may have noticed that there are few articles covering plus size men exclusively.
This idea that you must choose feminism or body positive movement, is at best ignorant. They are not opposite or opposing forces. Nor is it a bad thing if you realize your values align with a feminist.
When I wrote: “Fat acceptance has been reduced more than ever to only a 'feminist issue'."

My intention was to say this is how I think society in general perceives it currently. I totally disagree with that, especially since, as an FA, I also have a stake in fat acceptance.

When I wrote: "Why should fat acceptance be a feminist issue?"

My intention was to ask ‘why should fat acceptance be driven as and perceived by those on the outside as primarily a feminist/women’s rights issue’.

As I posted earlier, it seems radical 3rd wave feminists have largely hijacked the fat acceptance movement and driven away FAs, who they despise as just more evil objectifiers and users of women, like most other men. Anti-fat bias has been incorporated into the exaggerated argument that women are ‘valued’ more for their appearance and disadvantaged way more than men if their appearance does not meet societal ‘standards’. I think this new body positivity movement is an attempt to reinvent fat/size acceptance without the radical feminist overtones but unfortunately focused only on women. And it is not so different anyway, as, more often than not, they preach that women should find themselves beautiful in their own way. But there is little if any reference to the idea that there will also be potential life partners to correspondingly see the plus-sized person as beautiful and desirable – other than to look for the mythical man who will ‘see past their appearance’. In the meantime fat men are left voiceless. Your argument that somehow feminism covers fat men is only true due to the intersectionality aspect of modern feminism. But again, the fat men are more likely to be told to sit down and shut up because they don’t ‘suffer’ nearly as badly from societal anti-fat bias, than to actually have their concerns heard.

When you wrote: “This idea that you must choose feminism or body positive movement, is at best ignorant. They are not opposite or opposing forces. Nor is it a bad thing if you realize your values align with a feminist.”

This seems like you are setting up a straw man argument. Nobody here is saying that just because you disapprove of the current brand of intersectional SJW feminism that it necessarily puts you at odds with fat acceptance/body positivity. This is true if for no other reason than anti-fat bias affects many people besides fat women, including fat men, fat admirers, and the families of fat people (most people with a fat spouse/partner are not FAs), including their children. It is particularly ironic that some of the most discriminated against people (by their own community) are gay fat men and gay FAs. So I have no problem acknowledging that I have some values that align with feminists

Any person whose heart is not filled with anger/hate should be able to get behind the idea that people should be treated with respect, no matter their body shape.
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:31 PM   #36
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Primarily because womens bodies are judged far more often than men, regardless of size.

There ratio of women to men who are forced to file sexual harassment lawsuits against their employers is quite large. Men rarely get catcalled on the street.

I have a daughter who just turned 30. She recently returned from a business trip to Canada. One of her coworkers at dinner one evening began to comment about another coworker's body, saying that he didn't like her arms because they looked "too masculine" for his tastes. My daughter works out daily, and when she confronted him about his opinions, even as they may relate to her, his answer was "well, that's just the way it is". To me, there's so much wrongness to that.

And I think that's why we need feminism now, though I think that a return to the attitudes of the 70s & 80s feminists might be more effective today. I do agree however, with the statements made that for FA to succeed as a movement, it needs people outside the feminist community to walk with them, and help advocate for them.

I also want to clarify a point that was questioned by Two Swords, who found it interesting that I thought sexuality was absent in the gay rights movement after I said that to succeed, Fat Acceptance must remove sexuality from it. For anyone who thinks that the PRIDE parades of today look like what they did when the first one took place, I would recommend the following article: http://www.history.com/news/how-acti...-pride-parades

Social movements, as several have described here, are about people being treated equitably. Though I think that people have rights to certainly do what they want in their bedrooms without being judged or treated poorly by others for doing so, it really comes down to a rights issue, and I'm of the opinion that bringing the sexual preferences of any of us (be it fat women, fat men, or the people who are attracted to them) simply clouds the issue.
Yes feminism needs to get back to advocating for women to be treated and judged fairly based on their abilities and accomplishments instead of focusing on the victimhood mentality. There are still a few reasonable feminist academics out there (Christina Hoff Summers and Camille Paglia are stellar) but they have been marginalized.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the issue of how discussing the feelings and desires of fat admirers can impact the success of fat acceptance

I go back to what I said in an earlier post on this thread:
Consider fat people are discriminated against primarily because:
1) they are considered unattractive by the majority
2) being fat is still considered by many to be a character flaw resulting from laziness and overeating
3) being fat is unhealthy


For fat acceptance to be successful, I think all three of these issues should be addressed to some degree. To be considered a fully accepted member of society includes being perceived as desirable/attractive to at least some others. So part of fat acceptance should be the ‘normalization’ of being a fat admirer. In doing that we need to avoid the mistake of implying that all men should find fat women desirable. I think I already posted in this thread that is the impression many seem to have when they read the articles on ‘body positivity’ is that it is being ‘jammed down their throats that all women should be seen as desirable’. I think many are getting the impression this is some kind of cultural Marxist reeducation program rather than a pitch for diversity in thought and an encouragement of a live and let live attitude. Of course when you mention FAs (or generally referred to in mainstream discourse as chubby chasers) often points 2 and 3 are harped on. Or they pull out the fetishist pejorative.
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Old 09-30-2017, 04:53 PM   #37
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These disagreements are irreconcilable until everyone can agree on what the hell "feminism" is and which subgroups (man-hating feminists, equality feminists, left-handed feminists with belts in the back, etc.) represent the dominant influence in (pick one) society in general, the fat acceptance movement (such as it is), NAAFA, Dimensions forums, or the FA world.

I believe (with no more credible evidence than anyone else here has provided) that the predominant accepted definition of feminism among women is the belief that men and women should be treated as equals in every arena: economic, social, academic, and intellectual. That's why I call myself a feminist. I emphasize "among women" because they're the ones most entitled to define feminism. It is about them, after all. (Full disclosure: I am not a woman, nor have I ever been one.)

Men are much more likely to include terms such as angry or man-hating in their definitions. Undoubtedly, some females who identify as feminists are angry and/or man-haters, but I don't think that's true of the majority. (I'm not talking about NAAFA here, which may be an exception.)

The world's general low opinion of FAs is not attributable to feminism. It's mostly just spillover from society's irrational prejudice against fat - fat is "bad," so FAs are perverts or users. It's true that some fat women have been burned by unscrupulous FAs and reject all of us accordingly. I believe, however, that the the same proportion of sleazy males exists in the thin dating world. It's just that most fat women have never experienced that world.

It's hard to be body-positive when society blindly accepts a morass of misinformation (about almost everything) and promotes a ridiculously narrow standard of beauty that most of us don't match. Sadly, I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future. That's because society includes an excessively high proportion of mean-spirited morons, along with a few oligarchs who manipulate the morons with the goal of increasing their wealth and power.

Fire away.
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:23 PM   #38
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I believe (with no more credible evidence than anyone else here has provided) that the predominant accepted definition of feminism among women is the belief that men and women should be treated as equals in every arena: economic, social, academic, and intellectual. That's why I call myself a feminist. I emphasize "among women" because they're the ones most entitled to define feminism. It is about them, after all. (Full disclosure: I am not a woman, nor have I ever been one.)
The evidence against this position is that most women believe in gender equality, but only a fraction of them are self-professed feminists. As I said, in America, it's 20% or less. In the UK, it's 7%. Other countries often have even lower percentages, despite gender equality being widely accepted in the West. If they themselves define this difference between feminism and gender equality, who am I to argue?

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Originally Posted by fatgrllvr View Post
The world's general low opinion of FAs is not attributable to feminism. It's mostly just spillover from society's irrational prejudice against fat - fat is "bad," so FAs are perverts or users. It's true that some fat women have been burned by unscrupulous FAs and reject all of us accordingly. I believe, however, that the the same proportion of sleazy males exists in the thin dating world. It's just that most fat women have never experienced that world.
I expect (nay, welcome) the hatred of the world. However, it's just a bad thing when the vast majority of a movement labels us as just more male oppressors, despite the fact that we've never expressed anything of the sort for them. It's men who love women, being forced to not love them by those women, because they believe in a system of thinking that equates love with oppression.

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Originally Posted by fatgrllvr View Post
It's hard to be body-positive when society blindly accepts a morass of misinformation (about almost everything) and promotes a ridiculously narrow standard of beauty that most of us don't match. Sadly, I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future. That's because society includes an excessively high proportion of mean-spirited morons, along with a few oligarchs who manipulate the morons with the goal of increasing their wealth and power.

Fire away.
There's something to be said for that claim. It's why I do research on every topic I discuss. I don't want any one source to mislead me.
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Old 09-30-2017, 06:00 PM   #39
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The evidence against this position is that most women believe in gender equality, but only a fraction of them are self-professed feminists. As I said, in America, it's 20% or less. In the UK, it's 7%. Other countries often have even lower percentages, despite gender equality being widely accepted in the West. If they themselves define this difference between feminism and gender equality, who am I to argue?
Most of the women I know do identify as feminists, but of course that's purely anecdotal. Forgive me if you've already cited it, but I'm honestly curious about the source of your percentages?

Quote:
I expect (nay, welcome) the hatred of the world. However, it's just a bad thing when the vast majority of a movement labels us as just more male oppressors, despite the fact that we've never expressed anything of the sort for them. It's men who love women, being forced to not love them by those women, because they believe in a system of thinking that equates love with oppression.
I know there are many in the movement (which is really more of a twitch than a movement) who regard us as pond scum, but I doubt they comprise the vast majority. I could be wrong.
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Old 09-30-2017, 06:30 PM   #40
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Most of the women I know do identify as feminists, but of course that's purely anecdotal. Forgive me if you've already cited it, but I'm honestly curious about the source of your percentages?
I'm just about to go to bed, but I may as well answer this. In a YouGov poll conducted during the 11th and 12th of April, 2013, it was found that only 20% identified as feminist, and of those, less than a third were strongly feminist, by their own admission. Yet, 82% of those polled believed men and women should be equal, and interestingly enough, 27% of them believed that most women considered themselves feminists, and another 36% weren't sure. While it's not an exhaustive poll, you can check out the report in brief here. It's pretty interesting for dudes like me who love raw data.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com...0411122013.pdf

Oh. More raw data here too...

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com...0411122013.pdf


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I know there are many in the movement (which is really more of a twitch than a movement) who regard us as pond scum, but I doubt they comprise the vast majority. I could be wrong.
Or you could be right. That comment was based only on my own experiences with these groups, in person and online, but it could just be that the people who regard us as pond scum (as you nicely put it,) just have the biggest mouths, and therefore get noticed more easily than the nice ones. It wouldn't be the first time.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:45 AM   #41
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Back to the original theme of this thread and as a reminder that the real world out there offers much more critical consequences - an update on what happened next to the couple from the picture shoot:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...hotoshoot.html
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:31 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by agouderia View Post
Back to the original theme of this thread and as a reminder that the real world out there offers much more critical consequences - an update on what happened next to the couple from the picture shoot:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...hotoshoot.html
I wouldn't describe any bank as a "family oriented company." That's awful for them.
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:54 AM   #43
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Both my girlfriend and I like these photo shoots. All lot of fat women have asked me, a lean fit man, why I like fat women. Seeing a lean fit guy with a fat girlfriend is not a common sighting. On Dims, FatBarbieDoll has created multiple threads asking if these types of FAs exist. I think these photo shoots send the message of "don't settle." Go for what you want. I think it can help young FAs and young fat women to actually see a role model like them. This believe links into my girlfriend and I being very overt in public with our affection.
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Last edited by fuelingfire; 10-01-2017 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:55 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I'm just about to go to bed, but I may as well answer this. In a YouGov poll conducted during the 11th and 12th of April, 2013, it was found that only 20% identified as feminist, and of those, less than a third were strongly feminist, by their own admission. Yet, 82% of those polled believed men and women should be equal, and interestingly enough, 27% of them believed that most women considered themselves feminists, and another 36% weren't sure. While it's not an exhaustive poll, you can check out the report in brief here. It's pretty interesting for dudes like me who love raw data.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com...0411122013.pdf

Oh. More raw data here too...

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com...0411122013.pdf
I stand corrected. I did find these polls interesting and instructive, with many results that surprised me. Obviously the participants' definitions of feminism didn't match my own in the majority of cases, and they were probably inconsistent with one another as well. Makes it hard to address a topic when everyone's parameters are different.
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:08 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by agouderia View Post
Back to the original theme of this thread and as a reminder that the real world out there offers much more critical consequences - an update on what happened next to the couple from the picture shoot:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...hotoshoot.html
Unfortunately the real world is full of idiots and hypocrites, as evidenced by the bank's reaction to this beautiful and positive set of photos. That's the reality we're all stuck with. Body positivity is something we each have to work at individually (maybe with a little help from our friends), which includes working at disregarding the opinions of the idiots and hypocrites, which can be difficult since there are so many of them.
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Old 10-01-2017, 01:28 PM   #46
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When it comes down to it. If fat people are accepted, there would be no issue for FAs.
I don't work for and financially support fat acceptance so it would make my life easier. I've been a member of NAAFA and the International Size Acceptance Association over the years, and continue to donate to what I consider fat positive efforts.

I do it because it's the right thing to do.
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Old 10-01-2017, 01:48 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by agouderia View Post
Back to the original theme of this thread and as a reminder that the real world out there offers much more critical consequences - an update on what happened next to the couple from the picture shoot:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4937886/Plus-size-woman-FIRED-topless-photoshoot.html
Yes I happened across another article describing her termination and you beat me to posting about it. Considering that they live in Overton Texas. which is in the Northeast part of the state (relatively rural bible belt country), I am not surprised at this outcome. I don’t feel like it has anything to do with her weight, but rather the risqué nature of posing topless. If you look at the third picture from the top on the article you posted, her boob is fully exposed from the side although you need to look closely because it is shadowed. The tatoo on her right arm with what looks like a zombie face sure doesn’t help either. Since she only had been with that employer for about 1 year, they weren’t going to be very lenient. Everyone should know by now that employers are scrutinizing online activity – had she just worn a bikini top she probably has a different outcome.

According to this article, she said she already lined up another job, but she won’t be able to get health insurance from that job for the first few months or the paid maternity leave (she is about 5 months pregnant) that her prior job would have provided.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/plus...194110631.html

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Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
Both my girlfriend and I like these photo shoots. All lot of fat women have asked me, a lean fit man, why I like fat women. Seeing a lean fit guy with a fat girlfriend is not a common sighting. On Dims, FatBarbieDoll has created multiple threads asking if these types of FAs exist. I think these photo shoots send the message of "don't settle." Go for what you want. I think it can help young FAs and young fat women to actually see a role model like them. This believe links into my girlfriend and I being very overt in public with our affection.
Yes but you are reiterating the problem that this story does not properly deal with the issue of whether the guy is attracted to his fiancé partly because of her plus size or in spite of it. That is a big difference, because I think the number of guys who will fall into the latter category are few. As Two Swords has explained, the message should be not just that plus size/fat women are positive about their body BUT that they also can embrace the appreciation of that body by a male partner. I am glad that you are open about being attracted to fat women. But you never mentioned what you typically reply to these questions about “why I like fat women”.

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Originally Posted by fatgrllvr View Post
Unfortunately the real world is full of idiots and hypocrites, as evidenced by the bank's reaction to this beautiful and positive set of photos. That's the reality we're all stuck with. Body positivity is something we each have to work at individually (maybe with a little help from our friends), which includes working at disregarding the opinions of the idiots and hypocrites, which can be difficult since there are so many of them.
The photos are great BUT going topless was a huge mistake. And as I described above, in one of the shots, her boob is fully showing from the side. I don’t think she should have been fired, but she should have been more careful about what she let be posted on the internet.
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Old 10-01-2017, 03:29 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by waldo View Post
The photos are great BUT going topless was a huge mistake. And as I described above, in one of the shots, her boob is fully showing from the side. I don’t think she should have been fired, but she should have been more careful about what she let be posted on the internet.
Considering all the topless and near-topless skinny women we see on TV, in movies, in advertising, and in other media, this shot is pretty tame. If you show separate photos of a fat woman and a skinny woman wearing identical, slightly risque outfits, you can count on the fat woman catching much more crap than the thin one.

That said, you're right that she made a mistake in posting these photos, especially given the nature and location of her employer. We have to deal with the world as it is, not as we want it to be.
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:17 PM   #49
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Yes but you are reiterating the problem that this story does not properly deal with the issue of whether the guy is attracted to his fiancé partly because of her plus size or in spite of it. That is a big difference, because I think the number of guys who will fall into the latter category are few. As Two Swords has explained, the message should be not just that plus size/fat women are positive about their body BUT that they also can embrace the appreciation of that body by a male partner. I am glad that you are open about being attracted to fat women. But you never mentioned what you typically reply to these questions about “why I like fat women”.
Who was the author writing to? Considering most women at some point have body image issues, you could claim the target audience is trillions of women. How many FAs are out there, no one knows, but there are a lot of fat women who believe they have never met a FA. Safe to say much less.

As a FA, yes it would have been nice to get positive media recognition. But it could muddy the body acceptance issue. The message then becomes seek out the elusive FAs out there, or you don’t have a chance. Not meant to sound like a straw man argument, but people like to simplify topics, and that is likely what it would come to.

You are speculating he is a FA. We don’t know that.

I didn’t think my answer to “why I like fat women” was relevant to the thread. I am not sure why you are mentioning it. I have written about it in other areas of Dimensions. It varies greatly, based on context of where we are, how the conversation is going, what is my relation to this person, is my answer satisfying the person. It’s the follow up questions that get me, and only fat women ever ask: So do you want to make me/your partner super fat? Don’t you think it’s weird that you workout and eat healthy, but you want a fat partner who clearly doesn’t? Shouldn’t you think fat is attractive on you as well, and want to be fat yourself? So then you are just attracted to fat?

I have gotten all of those multiple times. Where they come from can only be speculated. I think a large component of it is, hearing that there are men that like something that women dislike about themselves, is making them try to rationalize what they are hearing. I do think it’s fair for a fat women to ask a FA if he is a feeder.

Being a FA is really only relevant to the woman I am dating. As I have said in other threads, I do enjoy public displays of affection showing I am attracted to my fat partner.

I think art is art. I hope some plus size clothing line hires her as a model, even if only temporary. Could even make it into a checky marketing campaign, “Don’t apologize for size”
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Old 10-02-2017, 02:12 AM   #50
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Who was the author writing to? Considering most women at some point have body image issues, you could claim the target audience is trillions of women. How many FAs are out there, no one knows, but there are a lot of fat women who believe they have never met a FA. Safe to say much less.
Right. They played it safe.

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Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
As a FA, yes it would have been nice to get positive media recognition. But it could muddy the body acceptance issue. The message then becomes seek out the elusive FAs out there, or you don’t have a chance. Not meant to sound like a straw man argument, but people like to simplify topics, and that is likely what it would come to.
The media also loves to simplify topics, and often does so incorrectly. I also think it's an oversimplification to imply that FAs can have their happy ending if the body shame issue is dealt with. It's not just about acceptance. We need to be told that it's something that it's good to like.

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Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
I didn’t think my answer to “why I like fat women” was relevant to the thread. I am not sure why you are mentioning it. I have written about it in other areas of Dimensions. It varies greatly, based on context of where we are, how the conversation is going, what is my relation to this person, is my answer satisfying the person.
I think he mentions it because he's wondering (please correct me if I'm wrong about this, Waldo,) if you would be willing to give FAs a little much-needed exposure, if you had the opportunity to do so, and it doesn't sound like you would.

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Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
It’s the follow up questions that get me, and only fat women ever ask: So do you want to make me/your partner super fat? Don’t you think it’s weird that you workout and eat healthy, but you want a fat partner who clearly doesn’t? Shouldn’t you think fat is attractive on you as well, and want to be fat yourself? So then you are just attracted to fat?
Waldo didn't ask any of these. You say these questions "get you," but really, they seem quite easy to answer, if the girl is willing to listen. I think the answers will be different for different FAs. For me, they're No, That's not clear, I do, and No, but it is a prerequisite for attraction. The answers to these questions may be different for you.

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Originally Posted by fuelingfire View Post
I have gotten all of those multiple times. Where they come from can only be speculated. I think a large component of it is, hearing that there are men that like something that women dislike about themselves, is making them try to rationalize what they are hearing. I do think it’s fair for a fat women to ask a FA if he is a feeder.
That's perfectly fair, but it only further proves just how much we FAs need the good press we're not getting. Women should really know more about the FA concept before they even meet me, especially if there's some possibility that they might be approached by me. If someone said they loved me for my thin lower arms, I wouldn't agree with them, and I might be legitimately interested in why they hold their perspective on that, but that's about as far as it would go.
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