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Old 12-22-2017, 08:08 PM   #1
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Default Is it just me, or is social media itself the problem?

I'm pretty well plugged into the internet, and I do research there as both a hobby and a job. Yet, in the last two Christmas vacations I took, I had to tune it out after just a couple of days, and the main reason was that aside from relatively-isolated cases like Deviantart, I just couldn't trust social media and search engines to deliver what I wanted them to when I tried to do research on fatness and fat acceptance. Go ahead. Try it. Try using Yahoo, Google, Ask... Heck, use Duckduckgo if you think it'll help. The vast majority of searches will turn up opposition to these things, rather than the things themselves.

Lest you think Facebook is any better, the fat acceptance page there hasn't been updated since 2014, and references a fat acceptance website that no longer exists, (Following the link leads to a blank page with a bunch of links to freaking diet info!) while the page devoted to attacking fat acceptance received updates as recently as October of this year. Youtube is even worse, with fat acceptance and body positivity videos either just not present, or not showing up in searches, and needing to be stumbled onto by chance in the associated videos bar on the side.

A while back, I found a really good website with a series of very well-written articles, debunking the myth of the "obesity epidemic," and within a week of my finding it, the page had been scrubbed from the internet.

People mention public outcry against Facebook for their abusive censoring of fat-friendly ads in appropriate places, but I'm shocked that no one's talked about this; that the FA Reddit page is packed with links attacking FA, and so on and so forth. Where does it end? Is there a whole world of civil Fat admirers out there, who just can't make their voices heard because some bureaucrat in Silicon Valley decided to "sanitize" the web, and as always with censorship, it's fat people and their advocates who suffer first?

This has only confirmed me in my current course, naturally. I don't have any other choice but to oppose this naked, broadside attack against free speech in my own way. Still, I wish more people would discuss this, because it seems like far, far too many people don't even talk about these issues anymore.

P.S.: At least Fanfiction net still has "the Unchosen One," so not all hope is lost, I guess.

---

Addendum: More than one person has indirectly questioned my use of "Fat Acceptance" as a point of discussion, and my response is that the fate of Fat Acceptance represents the reason why just targeting fat-hating isn't enough. Just defending fat people from attacks isn't enough. Just trying to fix a few social issues, to make the lives of some women a little easier isn't enough. That helps fat people, sure. So who's helping FAs? Who stands up to defend the people who are treated as sickos and perverts for feeling emotions that are not mainstream, both by society at large, and by the very people they most care about? To use a quote I found online, "...men who find fat women attractive don’t have much more than a light peppering of creepy, small online communities, and several somewhat less creepy, unpopular figureheads to help shoulder public scorn."

We are human beings, and treating us as objects of ridicule for no misdeed is a wicked and shameful act. So, as I've said before, only the targeting of the stigma attached to fatness specifically will show even a glimmer of good faith in this area. Otherwise, it's just a sort of "Got mine, so forget you" attitude from fat people to FAs, giving up on a fight that deserves to be fought, and don't expect me to see it otherwise.
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Old 12-23-2017, 02:04 AM   #2
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Default Video killed the Radio-star...

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...I tried to do research on fatness and fat acceptance.
Intentionally or not, you're conflating two very distinct, always contentious, and now somewhat estranged subcultures in Size Acceptance versus Fat Admiration. That used to co-exist pretty well here until, well, a whole bunch of other technological changes (Smart Phones?) brought more of the mainstream fat folks, those not here just for porn, onto other, more widely utilized platforms (Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, Tinder, etc...)

Obvious troll. Is too obvious.
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Old 12-23-2017, 03:42 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Intentionally or not, you're conflating two very distinct, always contentious, and now somewhat estranged subcultures in Size Acceptance versus Fat Admiration. That used to co-exist pretty well here until, well, a whole bunch of other technological changes (Smart Phones?) brought the more of mainstream fat folks, not here just for porn, onto other, more widely utilized platforms (Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, Tinder, etc...)
So, what? Are you suggesting FA people largely abandoned youtube and google? I have no idea what you mean.

How does this address what I said?

P.S.: I don't see how a person could be a fat admirer without being in favor of fat acceptance, though I could understand why a person would want to practice fat acceptance, even if they're not a fat admirer.

If you're suggesting that most "mainstream fat folks" (I.E.: The people who actually put effort into defending fat acceptance,) were "brought" to those other social media locations, then where are they? Why don't they show up when you look for them? That's my question. Or did you mean something else by the word "mainstream?" Were you referring to those self-denigrating kinds that can't appreciate the marvelous gift they've been given?

P.P.S.: I'm also unsure of why you raised the issue of porn. Neither fatness nor fat acceptance is pornographic in nature, and I certainly don't follow any porn websites or anything like that, so it just doesn't seem relevant to what I was talking about.

P.P.P.S.: If you think this is about finding fat pictures to gawk at, think again. I'm madly, desperately, frantically jealous of fatter people, and am looking for anyone like-minded, to let me know the universe still has some decency in it.
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Old 12-23-2017, 07:06 AM   #4
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TS, out of curiosity, how do you define fat acceptance? Ive found it means different things to different people with some believing their definition is the sole definitive authoritative definition. Almost like religion! Anyway Im curious how you define it.
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Old 12-23-2017, 08:44 AM   #5
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TS, out of curiosity, how do you define fat acceptance? I’ve found it means different things to different people with some believing their definition is the sole definitive authoritative definition. Almost like religion! Anyway I’m curious how you define it.
"The view that fatness is not, and/or should not be treated as, a negative quality to possess."*

And I haven't found it at all in certain places online, which is why I raised this issue.

---

*I place an asterisk after this definition because I want to clarify that just because something is not negative, doesn't mean it must be positive or that people should want it. For instance, it's not negative to have brown hair, or freckles, yet these things don't need to be positive, nor is anyone obligated to desire them. The same is true of fatness.

---

However, as an aside, (and this is not at all implied by the definition I just presented,) I do always view them as positive, and I do always desire these qualities for myself. My ultimate objective is to locate someone with whom I have some sufficient amount of common ground in these areas to have an actual, friendly conversation, as opposed to another in a long line of boring and much-too-easy debates. (You can go anywhere online for that.)
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Old 12-23-2017, 03:31 PM   #6
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Have you ever considered numerical reality?
Or shifts in social grouping and jargon?

Fat admiration that is publicized through media channels - apart from the porn issue - is a niche issue with only a very limited number of participants.

Fat acceptance as a term and movement most likely is way past its heyday. In public awareness - and in terminology - it has been replaced by the body positivity or body acceptance movement - with similar but not identical goals.
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Old 12-23-2017, 05:33 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by agouderia View Post
Have you ever considered numerical reality?
Or shifts in social grouping and jargon?

Fat admiration that is publicized through media channels - apart from the porn issue - is a niche issue with only a very limited number of participants.

Fat acceptance as a term and movement most likely is way past its heyday. In public awareness - and in terminology - it has been replaced by the body positivity or body acceptance movement - with similar but not identical goals.
I looked up "Numerical reality," and was brought to a page about an obscure superpower.

And in order for something to "replace" something else, it must fulfill the role of that thing. Some of the primary roles of the Fat Acceptance cause are to remind people that good moral conduct should extend to fat people as well, and that fatness should no longer be treated as a lesser quality, which should be marked for annihilation. Neither body positivity nor body acceptance overtly target these issues, and therefore neither is a replacement.

And by the way, if something being a "niche issue" had any effect on me or my goals, I wouldn't be an FA at all.

P.S.: Media channels? Did I read that right? You do realize I'm talking about normal internet discourse, right? Youtube has as much in common with diary entries as it does with media.
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Old 12-24-2017, 01:36 AM   #8
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"...I don't see how a person could be a fat admirer without being in favor of fat acceptance..."
You haven't really thought this through. But I will try to 'do-you-a-solid' here:

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"So, what? Are you suggesting FA people largely abandoned youtube and google?"
No. FA is all over, from YouTube/Google (the same company as far as I can see) to Reddit to Instagram, etc... To more specific sites I'm sure you're probably deeply familiar with. The primary difference being (from my point of view) of it all being, fundamentally, more fragmented? Than it was in Dimensions' 'heydey.'

And this isn't at all specific to just these kinds of niche interests, but more like an across the board phenomenon, across all media, inclusive of everything from the seemingly endless myriad of different types of shows, webcasts, and podcasts now available to us to movies and other content released exclusively through online subscription-based providers (like Hulu or Netflix). Or Music. Or, particularly, as this last election cycle has demonstrated, even something as basic and vital as news.

That is, much more so than even 7 or 8 years ago, everything is so much more 'individualized' and customized to the increasingly more specific tastes of a particular demographic of 'consumer.'

And so, fat people, in general, are no longer under the same kind of pressure they once may've felt to occupy the same space (virtual and other) as so many perverts and ill-mannered wankers popping in for some kind of show. Fetishising us, treating us as some kind of commodity form. Not (at all) suggesting that's necessarily you. Or anyone else in particular. Just...just...sayin', is all.

So, naturally, they left, they moved on. Most of us, at least. No longer strapped with the problem(s) of 'Omg, what if the people responding to my OkCupid profile don't quite realize just how fat I am, should I post more full-body shots?'. Because, like I said, with smart phones, the ubiquity of that kind of interface's reach, everything moves so much more quickly. Than even just a decade or so ago.

Meanwhile, FAs: *blinking* "Huh?..Who moved my cheese?"

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"How does this address what I said?"
Once stripped of the community that Size Acceptance and otherwise more universally approachable themes helped to engender, the FAs were basically left with a shell of what was once here. A ghost town or grave yard, if you will, sparsely populated by those lurking amongst ruins of a zombie apocalypse. And those perfectly willing & happy to show bewbs for money. But, again, largely dominated by said wankers.

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"..were "brought" to those other social media locations, then where are they? Why don't they show up when you look for them? That's my question."
They're there-alright, they're just not (particularly) interested in letting people like you in. They're on Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, YouTube, ect... I mean, don't want to over-generalize, painting such wide variety of content with a broad brush; but I'll say you shouldn't necessarily expect that they'd include the terminology you're most familiar and appreciative of in their search engine optimization (BBW? Thick? Pawg?). Because they are not so particularly appreciative of that kind of terminology? Nor are they particularly interest in your 'Fat Acceptance'. Whatever that's even supposed to mean.

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"I certainly don't follow any porn websites or anything like that, so..."
Mhhmm. Sort of ironic, considering.
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Old 12-24-2017, 03:08 AM   #9
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Old 12-24-2017, 03:41 AM   #10
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No. FA is all over, from YouTube/Google (the same company as far as I can see) to Reddit to Instagram, etc... To more specific sites I'm sure you're probably deeply familiar with. The primary difference being (from my point of view) of it all being, fundamentally, more fragmented? Than it was in Dimensions' 'heydey.'
"Fragmented" implies that there are still fragments left, so why am I not seeing them? Why are people not discussing this?

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Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
And this isn't at all specific to just these kinds of niche interests, but more like an across the board phenomenon, across all media, inclusive of everything from the seemingly endless myriad of different types of shows, webcasts, and podcasts now available to us to movies and other content released exclusively through online subscription-based providers (like Hulu or Netflix). Or Music. Or, particularly, as this last election cycle has demonstrated, even something as basic and vital as news.
So Netflix, Hulu, Music and the news all have fragments of fat acceptance in them that I'm not aware of?

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That is, much more so than even 7 or 8 years ago, everything is so much more 'individualized' and customized to the increasingly more specific tastes of a particular demographic of 'consumer.'
No man or woman is an island. That's no less true now than it's ever been, and it's wrong to expect people to support themselves, and to share their own views only with themselves, especially when those are views that the world at large benefits from.

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And so, fat people, in general, are no longer under the same kind of pressure they once may've felt to occupy the same space (virtual and other) as so many perverts and ill-mannered wankers popping in for some kind of show. Fetishising us, treating us as some kind of commodity form. Not (at all) suggesting that's necessarily you. Or anyone else in particular. Just...just...sayin', is all.
So, yeah. What I'm seeing here is that, having found a way to hide from scorn (which still exists; oh, boy, does it ever!) fat people have decided that other groups of people who are scorned don't deserve their help.

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So, naturally, they left, they moved on. Most of us, at least. No longer strapped with the problem(s) of 'Omg, what if the people responding to my OkCupid profile don't quite realize just how fat I am, should I post more full-body shots?'. Because, like I said, with smart phones, the ubiquity of that kind of interface's reach, everything moves so much more quickly. Than even just a decade or so ago.
I'm afraid I still don't see what smart phones have to do with people finding support in the midst of bad treatment by others. It hasn't gotten any easier. In fact, as I pointed out, it's harder.

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Once stripped of the community that Size Acceptance and otherwise more universally approachable themes helped to engender, the FAs were basically left with a shell of what was once here. A ghost town or grave yard, if you will, sparsely populated by those lurking amongst ruins of a zombie apocalypse. And those perfectly willing & happy to show bewbs for money. But, again, largely dominated by said wankers.

They're there-alright, they're just not (particularly) interested in letting people like you in. They're on Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, YouTube, ect... I mean, don't want to over-generalize, painting such wide variety of content with a broad brush; but I'll say you shouldn't necessarily expect that they'd include the terminology you're most familiar and appreciative of in their search engine optimization (BBW? Thick? Pawg?). Because they are not so particularly appreciative of that kind of terminology? Nor are they particularly interest in your 'Fat Acceptance'. Whatever that's even supposed to mean.
I just defined what it meant for "Happily."

And again, all I'm seeing here is a group of people who were (and are) treated with open scorn, who once recognized that they were a persecuted group, and wanted to seek a solution for themselves and other, related persecuted groups, and have basically decided that, as long as they can feel like they're mainstream, nobody else's fate matters.

Fetishists and perverts are an excuse for dodging one's responsibility to those who are still rejected by society, and who still require support and acceptance. Yes, they may exist, but whether you want to paint everyone with a broad brush or not, that's exactly what you're doing, and it's no different from the broad brush thinking of a Youtube commentor, who assumes all fat people must eat horribly or something.

The only reason why concerns about fetishists are so common, is that miserable, unhappy, angry people always have the loudest voices, but in reality, for every person who has bad experiences with some fetishist, you'll find another person who found a way to enjoy pleasant company, and this is true in the FA spectrum and outside of it. So, while a certain amount of wariness is called for in any decision that requires discernment (and relationship and policy decisions especially,) this excessive fixation on shunning and avoiding fetishists is, as I see it, like trying to kill a fly with a blunderbuss. It's not really justifiable as a general rule, and is more likely to cause further harm than good. I think it's probably just more of the fallout from fat hate, and like all other elements of said fallout, it shouldn't be given any quarter.

So why is it suddenly just fine when open persecution of fatness goes on under our noses, and no one says a word about it?

The only answer I can think of that makes sense, is that women who are not already hostile to their own fat, (acting on fear, primarily,) have decided that challenging their abusers won't bring them any closer to happiness, because they're scared of the company they'd be keeping (again, in a broad brush kind of way,) while men, having realized that this irrational fear leaves no hope for an honest relationship to develop, and sick of being used with no hope of a positive outcome for themselves, have turned to porn as a cheap imitation of the real relationships they can't have.

Have I left anything out?
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:50 PM   #11
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Facebook's main intent was to divide people and its done a good job at that.
It alienates everyone fat, skinny you name it
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Old 12-24-2017, 11:56 PM   #12
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I'm pretty well plugged into the internet, and I do research there as both a hobby and a job. Yet, in the last two Christmas vacations I took, I had to tune it out after just a couple of days, and the main reason was that aside from relatively-isolated cases like Deviantart, I just couldn't trust social media and search engines to deliver what I wanted them to when I tried to do research on fatness and fat acceptance. Go ahead. Try it. Try using Yahoo, Google, Ask... Heck, use Duckduckgo if you think it'll help. The vast majority of searches will turn up opposition to these things, rather than the things themselves.

Lest you think Facebook is any better, the fat acceptance page there hasn't been updated since 2014, and references a fat acceptance website that no longer exists, (Following the link leads to a blank page with a bunch of links to freaking diet info!) while the page devoted to attacking fat acceptance received updates as recently as October of this year. Youtube is even worse, with fat acceptance and body positivity videos either just not present, or not showing up in searches, and needing to be stumbled onto by chance in the associated videos bar on the side.

A while back, I found a really good website with a series of very well-written articles, debunking the myth of the "obesity epidemic," and within a week of my finding it, the page had been scrubbed from the internet.

People mention public outcry against Facebook for their abusive censoring of fat-friendly ads in appropriate places, but I'm shocked that no one's talked about this; that the FA Reddit page is packed with links attacking FA, and so on and so forth. Where does it end? Is there a whole world of civil Fat admirers out there, who just can't make their voices heard because some bureaucrat in Silicon Valley decided to "sanitize" the web, and as always with censorship, it's fat people and their advocates who suffer first?

This has only confirmed me in my current course, naturally. I don't have any other choice but to oppose this naked, broadside attack against free speech in my own way. Still, I wish more people would discuss this, because it seems like far, far too many people don't even talk about these issues anymore.

P.S.: At least Fanfiction net still has "the Unchosen One," so not all hope is lost, I guess.

---

Addendum: More than one person has indirectly questioned my use of "Fat Acceptance" as a point of discussion, and my response is that the fate of Fat Acceptance represents the reason why just targeting fat-hating isn't enough. Just defending fat people from attacks isn't enough. Just trying to fix a few social issues, to make the lives of some women a little easier isn't enough. That helps fat people, sure. So who's helping FAs? Who stands up to defend the people who are treated as sickos and perverts for feeling emotions that are not mainstream, both by society at large, and by the very people they most care about? To use a quote I found online, "...men who find fat women attractive dont have much more than a light peppering of creepy, small online communities, and several somewhat less creepy, unpopular figureheads to help shoulder public scorn."

We are human beings, and treating us as objects of ridicule for no misdeed is a wicked and shameful act. So, as I've said before, only the targeting of the stigma attached to fatness specifically will show even a glimmer of good faith in this area. Otherwise, it's just a sort of "Got mine, so forget you" attitude from fat people to FAs, giving up on a fight that deserves to be fought, and don't expect me to see it otherwise.
You've basically chronicled what I've been saying for the past couple of years. The Fat Acceptance movement is over. It was killed by several issues, from the faux "size diversity" movement as well as the number of fat people who've had WLS and don't believe they need fat acceptance anymore (even though they may be fat enough to still qualify for another WLS). And the extremely harsh reality of physiology as fat people get older continues to thin our ranks.

As for finding support for fat people, fat acceptance, or Fat Admirers on the anti-social media websites like Facebook, Reddit, et al, that's a fools errand. For that is where the villagers with torches and pitchforks reside, ready to show non-conformists like us the way to the True Path of Enlightenment.

I'm sorry you and so many others missed the golden age of Fat Acceptance. It was such an uplifting time, so full of promise for the future.

I think the online communities have been going downhill since the old BBS days. As the technological bar for entry into computers was lowered, more mouth breathing knuckle draggers were able to go online to share their brilliant thoughts with us. Now every idiot with a smartphone attacks us from all sides.

While you may see the situation as a "Got mine, so forget you" attitude, you overlook several issues. First is several of us have been fighting the good fight for well over thirty years. We've dropped several thousand dollars on the fight over the years. And this is a fight that takes a lot of very smart people working together to gain any progress towards fat acceptance. But we'd no longer be starting from the easy origin we had back in 1969. The world has changed and many of our old talking points have been disproven or accommodations have been made.

And speaking as an old timer, I sometimes wonder what I've wrought. As much as I love how a SSBBW looks, I appreciate the costs to her. Beauty measured by the pound carries a heavy weight to the bearer. It's why I advise only those who receive their own sexual gratification from being fat to gain or maintain supersize status.
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:01 AM   #13
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Facebook's main intent was to divide people and its done a good job at that.
It alienates everyone fat, skinny you name it
Do you have a source you can cite for that? I suspect it's at most an unintended consequence of the users being the product being delivered to the advertisers.
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Old 12-25-2017, 05:14 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Tracii View Post
Facebook's main intent was to divide people and its done a good job at that.
It alienates everyone fat, skinny you name it
I believe it. Mark Zuckerberg is a divisive dude.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
You've basically chronicled what I've been saying for the past couple of years. The Fat Acceptance movement is over. It was killed by several issues, from the faux "size diversity" movement as well as the number of fat people who've had WLS and don't believe they need fat acceptance anymore (even though they may be fat enough to still qualify for another WLS). And the extremely harsh reality of physiology as fat people get older continues to thin our ranks.
No amount of physiology can cause people to give up on accepting their weight. That's a decision on their part, and only their own (in my view, unwise) decision effects it.

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As for finding support for fat people, fat acceptance, or Fat Admirers on the anti-social media websites like Facebook, Reddit, et al, that's a fools errand. For that is where the villagers with torches and pitchforks reside, ready to show non-conformists like us the way to the True Path of Enlightenment.
So what do you suggest?

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I'm sorry you and so many others missed the golden age of Fat Acceptance. It was such an uplifting time, so full of promise for the future.

I think the online communities have been going downhill since the old BBS days. As the technological bar for entry into computers was lowered, more mouth breathing knuckle draggers were able to go online to share their brilliant thoughts with us. Now every idiot with a smartphone attacks us from all sides.
There was always a lot of hostility, and I expect that, but there was also a time when people could find support when they needed to, and knew where to look.

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While you may see the situation as a "Got mine, so forget you" attitude, you overlook several issues. First is several of us have been fighting the good fight for well over thirty years. We've dropped several thousand dollars on the fight over the years. And this is a fight that takes a lot of very smart people working together to gain any progress towards fat acceptance. But we'd no longer be starting from the easy origin we had back in 1969. The world has changed and many of our old talking points have been disproven or accommodations have been made.
Disproven in what way? Accomodations were made by whom? Who decided it was okay to throw FAs as a body under the proverbial bus? It all sounds ephemeral and vague to me, and if I'm going to develop any sort of strategy for finding support, or for conquering the internet, I need lists and names, so I can start disproving them.

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And speaking as an old timer, I sometimes wonder what I've wrought. As much as I love how a SSBBW looks, I appreciate the costs to her. Beauty measured by the pound carries a heavy weight to the bearer.
You're overcomplicating matters.

There are people who are naturally-fat.
There are people who are naturally-unable to feel for thin people.
If person 1 cannot accept their fatness, they will react badly to the love that person 2 can express.
Therefore, they will cause harm to person 2, and to themselves, by refusing to do so. Where is the hole in this chain?

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It's why I advise only those who receive their own sexual gratification from being fat to gain or maintain supersize status.
There are a few points that I feel you've missed here.

A. I've never said that anyone should choose a body type they hate. I agree that, as far as it's within their power, people should have bodies that they can feel confident over, especially since all future mates will need the same, or similar types of feelings in order to appreciate them.

B. I don't know if I was sufficiently clear on this, but this is not even about sex at all. It's about beauty. Beauty is one thing for the majority and another thing for me. To me, beauty is a function of softness, size and surface area, and there are many ways for women to attain these; fatness being only the most natural and least alienating and strange. I also bemoan the loss of hoop skirts and the coming of spring, when people take off their thicker coats. So I'm not arguing from the perspective of a person who specifically cares about sex. I want to live in a world where beauty is not so hard to find, but much more important for me is a single voice of support. But sex? If you'll forgive this, screw that noise.

C. The claim that only certain people *should* gain or maintain a certain weight implies that everyone has some freedom in what their weight is, but as my own experience of not being able to progress past the 280 range indicates, that is simply untrue. People have natural weight "ranges," which they can move up or down *a little,* but stressing the point and struggling to lose or gain a huge amount of weight only leads to frustration, stress and the associated high blood pressure that comes with it.

D. In reality, yes, there are limits for fat people in speed and being "good for thieving," but fatter people also have far greater qualities in many other areas, such as durability, comfort and often, physical strength as well. It's no different than taller people being better, on average, at playing basketball.

E. You also seem to be questioning the legitimacy of FA emotions, in which case, in fairness, we would then need to question the legitimacy of all emotions generally, but since you mentioned sex, I'm not sure if it's really the emotions you're questioning, or just the sexual craving, so I won't press this point.

Also, you've referred to "very smart people" who are apparently needed, and my response is; not really. It only takes one person to accept fatness fully and completely, and I am that person, apparently.

However, if it's brains you need, there are several issues that fat acceptance raises, which I've never heard anyone on the other side adequately answer. Maybe you can share with me how each of these issues was "disproven."

1. How can it be philosophically shown that good physical health transcends the human right to be treated respectfully and lovingly?

2. How can it be shown that experiencing illness in 30 years makes you unhealthy now?

3. How can it be shown that those fat people who experience illness experience it because of their weight, rather than due to stress, poor nutrition, lack of exercise or lack of sleep?

4. How can it be explained that fat people with illnesses live longer, on average, than thin people with the same?

5. What objective standard can be used to show that fatness is inferior to (or even is not superior to) thinness?

6. What is the precise, cause-and-effect relationship between fatness and poor health?

7. How does that relationship work?

8. How can mainstream medicine defend itself from the claim that it is merely assuming that correlations imply causations with regard to fatness?

9. Since every person needs food to survive, in what sense is it proper to speak of a "food addiction" relative to some people, but not others?

10. What objective standard can be used to show that fatness is less beautiful than (or even is not more beautiful than) thinness?

11. What grounds do the fat hate community have for their activities, to protect them from the accusation that they are merely citing their own, fallible sentiments, in place of actual morals?

12. What evidence is there that fat hate or rejection of one's natural body shape makes people healthier?

13. Or prettier?

14. Or better off?

15. Or encourages them to succeed in losing weight?

16. What evidence is there that most people who lose weight in these manners manage to keep it off for more than 5 years?

17. Or find greater happiness?

18. Or improve in overall health?

In short, how have any of the claims of fat acceptance been challenged in any way, apart from the foundation-less, sentimental drumbeat of the less critical thinkers continuing for a while?
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Old 12-25-2017, 01:42 PM   #15
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Search Sean Parker the first FB president and see what he says about it and how sorry he is that he was a part of it.
Probably find several links to what he said on The Guardian or Gizmodo.
More than likely on Brietbart as well.
All I know if you lean to the left you will discount anything I say or any link to articles that I give you.
But if he did actually say it and admits it then it shouldn't matter who reports it.
Its just a data mining site anyway because people are stupid and freely give out personal info all day long.
You cannot deny the division that exists on there and that groups like antifa and BLM use it all the time.
Conservative groups do to so I don't give them a pass either.
Trump uses twitter very well to bug the crap out of liberals that fall for anything he tweets.
His tweets drive the liberal media crazy and usually makes them look like fools.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:14 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Tracii View Post
Facebook's main intent was to divide people and its done a good job at that.
It alienates everyone fat, skinny you name it
It is this point I was addressing in my previous comment to you.

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Originally Posted by Tracii View Post
Search Sean Parker the first FB president and see what he says about it and how sorry he is that he was a part of it.
Probably find several links to what he said on The Guardian or Gizmodo.
More than likely on Brietbart as well.
All I know if you lean to the left you will discount anything I say or any link to articles that I give you.
I've now found a few articles that cite remarks from Zuckerberg "who has asked for "forgiveness" for ways his "work was used to divide people," revealed Facebook's new mission statement this past summer."

Somehow I suspect they will only change their techniques and not the end result. They can't if the core of their business and algorithms is based on the following: "The thought process that went into building these applications, Facebook being the first of them, ... was all about: 'How do we consume as much of your time and conscious attention as possible?'" Parker added. The company achieved this by adding the "like" button or letting people comment on posts or pictures, with Parker calling these "a social-validation feedback loop ... exactly the kind of thing that a hacker like myself would come up with, because you're exploiting a vulnerability in human psychology."

It's that core vulnerability that causes the division because it puts the poster at the center of their online universe. Most people seem to lack the capacity to accept other realities outside of their own and that's most obvious in online exchanges where the lack of visible body language allows a poster to ramp up inflammatory statements beyond the threshold of "rage" by the readers.

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But if he did actually say it and admits it then it shouldn't matter who reports it.
Its just a data mining site anyway because people are stupid and freely give out personal info all day long.
I guess I've been an unusual (and unprofitable) FB user. I revealed very little of my personal information and even less of my "current events". You would learn very little about me from my FB presence. I think the difference is I remembered the old adage "familiarity breeds contempt". Something most everyone's grandparents and great-grandparents understood. And now everyone gets to experience the truth of another old adage, "those who don't earn from history are doomed to repeat it."

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Originally Posted by Tracii View Post
You cannot deny the division that exists on there and that groups like antifa and BLM use it all the time.
Conservative groups do to so I don't give them a pass either.
Trump uses twitter very well to bug the crap out of liberals that fall for anything he tweets.
His tweets drive the liberal media crazy and usually makes them look like fools.
Trump understands another old adage, "the best defense is a good offense". I applaud his effort so far. I've enjoyed watching the Media driven into apoplexy over his posts.

Un-social media ls like a double edged sword with no handle. Most grip it too tightly and swing too hard. Over time more will learn that lesson and post accordingly.
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:03 PM   #17
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I enjoy watching all these activist types get on you tube and make bold claims only to find out nobody gives a damn and looks at them as whiny cry babies then makes fun of them for being utterly stupid.
I have done the activism thing when I was in school thinking I was going to change the world but I grew up and saw how stupid I looked waving signs and chanting some stupid slogan.
The people at these rallies when asked why are they there and what is their point they stand there and won't say anything. My guess is they don't know why they are there and just want to be on you tube for their 15 min of fame.
I love watching the loudmouth anifa bad boys act all bad and threaten others then the other person kicks their butt and watch the antifa crowd scatter and leave their comrade laying on the ground.
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:05 PM   #18
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I enjoy watching all these activist types get on you tube and make bold claims only to find out nobody gives a damn and looks at them as whiny cry babies then makes fun of them for being utterly stupid.
I have done the activism thing when I was in school thinking I was going to change the world but I grew up and saw how stupid I looked waving signs and chanting some stupid slogan.
The people at these rallies when asked why are they there and what is their point they stand there and won't say anything. My guess is they don't know why they are there and just want to be on you tube for their 15 min of fame.
I love watching the loudmouth anifa bad boys act all bad and threaten others then the other person kicks their butt and watch the antifa crowd scatter and leave their comrade laying on the ground.
I enjoy it, too, but for other reasons. When people cease to believe in the effectiveness of non-violent protest, they generally look for something else to believe in. So far, automatic weapons and suicide bombing seem to be leading contenders for the position.
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:46 PM   #19
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Can you define automatic weapon and where an automatic weapon was used in a commission of a crime recently?
You do know automatic weapons have been restricted and highly regulated since 1934 under the National Firearms Act. Then banned from new manufacture since 1968.
Unless the perp/nut case has a spare 20 grand laying to purchase one and wait a year for the FBI background check and tax stamp chances are he isn't going to have an automatic weapon.
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:01 AM   #20
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No amount of physiology can cause people to give up on accepting their weight. That's a decision on their part, and only their own (in my view, unwise) decision effects it.
Actually physiological issues like diabetes and diabetic complications, orthopedic issues like damaged joints and stress fractures, congestive heart failure, and many other weight related problems have caused many of our former compatriots and allies to abandon the path of fat acceptance. Yes, it was a decision on their part, at least for the ones that lived to make that decision.


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So what do you suggest?
Accept the resources currently available. (And there are many compared to over 35 years ago.) What are you looking for? Larger clothes, social groups, fat porn sites? There's probably more now than ever before. The only thing missing is a place where newly awakened FAs can spread their wings and make the typical mistakes before they mature.

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There was always a lot of hostility, and I expect that, but there was also a time when people could find support when they needed to, and knew where to look.
The hostility, both from the public and from within our own ranks, will be a constant. The support you think used to be readily available was actually very spotty. Not everyone received it in similar measure. And to be very blunt, some people were needier than others. A few needed more professional help than was available from a social group of average fat folks in the process of finding themselves.

As for today, there are still a few groups scattered across the US, UK and other countries. Get involved and don't expect a perfect fit to your expectations. All of them are busy trying to meet their own expectations.


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Disproven in what way? Accomodations were made by whom? Who decided it was okay to throw FAs as a body under the proverbial bus?
Basically the bariatric industry started using our old Fat Acceptance talking points in their advertising in the early 2000's. And they were phenomenally successful in their use to convince people to be a customer in their OR.

And the FA's were tossed under the bus by the feminists in the Fat Acceptance movement who strenuously objected to sexuality intruding into their (hijacked) civil rights organization they were trying to morph NAAFA into.

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It all sounds ephemeral and vague to me, and if I'm going to develop any sort of strategy for finding support, or for conquering the internet, I need lists and names, so I can start disproving them.
ROTFL!!! That's even more of a Quixotic endeavor than it was in 1969 to 1999.
Here's a couple of groups to go battle:
1) National Institute of Health
https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health-top...ht-and-obesity
2) The Obesity Society
http://www.obesity.org/home
Both groups tend to make decisions based on empirical data, not emotional opinions. You better bring your "A" game if you want to change their minds and their decisions that guide current medical practice and public policy.

But maybe you can start small. Try contacting the producers of "My 600 Pound Life" on TLC. Maybe you can get them to do an episode where you talk someone into accepting their weight for at least another 5 years.

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You're overcomplicating matters.

There are people who are naturally-fat.
There are people who are naturally-unable to feel for thin people.
If person 1 cannot accept their fatness, they will react badly to the love that person 2 can express.
Therefore, they will cause harm to person 2, and to themselves, by refusing to do so. Where is the hole in this chain?
All chains have holes, or they'd be a bar.

All kidding aside, I think you're oversimplifying the issue to just the perspective of an FA trying to support their preferences. And there was an element of that in NAAFA when it was started. Bill Fabrey was a devout and practicing FA who preferred SSBBWs and probably still does. (He was quite the flirtatious FA with my SSBBW wife a decade or so ago when he assured her there was plenty of room to grow before the seatbelt wouldn't fit.)

People can prefer to not be fat for many reasons. Some are simply due to social opinion. But for many others their preference is rooted in physiological reasons which you apparently discount. You'd have to be able to stop people's bodies from improving health indicators like BP, BG, HDL, LDL, triglycerides, and other issues when they lose weight. I wish it wasn't true but it is, and we look like idiots when we argue that it doesn't matter. And it's not just due to emotional stress as you seem to believe.

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There are a few points that I feel you've missed here.

A. I've never said that anyone should choose a body type they hate. I agree that, as far as it's within their power, people should have bodies that they can feel confident over, especially since all future mates will need the same, or similar types of feelings in order to appreciate them.

B. I don't know if I was sufficiently clear on this, but this is not even about sex at all. It's about beauty. Beauty is one thing for the majority and another thing for me. To me, beauty is a function of softness, size and surface area, and there are many ways for women to attain these; fatness being only the most natural and least alienating and strange. I also bemoan the loss of hoop skirts and the coming of spring, when people take off their thicker coats. So I'm not arguing from the perspective of a person who specifically cares about sex. I want to live in a world where beauty is not so hard to find, but much more important for me is a single voice of support. But sex? If you'll forgive this, screw that noise.
Admiration of beauty is the precursor to lust, and lust is a prerequisite for loving sex. So your attempt to distance your stance and argument from sex is intellectually dishonest. Otherwise your argument slides into the "FA infantilism" that's been proposed by a few psychologists and sociologists. That's where the FA is seeking the softness and overwhelming size difference they experienced with their mother when they were an infant. That may be true with you and if it is, that's OK. Just realize it's not what many of us experience as FAs.

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C. The claim that only certain people *should* gain or maintain a certain weight implies that everyone has some freedom in what their weight is, but as my own experience of not being able to progress past the 280 range indicates, that is simply untrue. People have natural weight "ranges," which they can move up or down *a little,* but stressing the point and struggling to lose or gain a huge amount of weight only leads to frustration, stress and the associated high blood pressure that comes with it.
The setpoint theory of weight is a little over 25 years old. And repeated weight yo-yo-ing has been shown to increase BP, typically with weight swings of 70 lbs or more.

My views of who should gain (or maintain) are based on years of observation and consideration. Of all the sub-groups of fat people (and wanna-be's), only those who get sexual self gratification should pursue it. And they need to fully appreciate that the risks are real and they accept them. It's a lifestyle of commitment. No one should do it to please anyone else but themselves. That said, they should look for someone that appreciates their efforts. Not only because it's such a rare pairing that deserves to be made, but the gainer is going to need help eventually. It shouldn't be someone likely to bail on them when the going gets tough.

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D. In reality, yes, there are limits for fat people in speed and being "good for thieving," but fatter people also have far greater qualities in many other areas, such as durability, comfort and often, physical strength as well. It's no different than taller people being better, on average, at playing basketball.
Moral of the story: the only sport fat people should do is lifting weights.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
E. You also seem to be questioning the legitimacy of FA emotions, in which case, in fairness, we would then need to question the legitimacy of all emotions generally, but since you mentioned sex, I'm not sure if it's really the emotions you're questioning, or just the sexual craving, so I won't press this point.
No, since as an FA I've gone through the full range of emotions. Don't let your wants override your SSBBW's needs.

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Also, you've referred to "very smart people" who are apparently needed, and my response is; not really. It only takes one person to accept fatness fully and completely, and I am that person, apparently.

However, if it's brains you need, there are several issues that fat acceptance raises, which I've never heard anyone on the other side adequately answer. Maybe you can share with me how each of these issues was "disproven."
I have numerous friends and acquaintances who belong to MENSA, several who were involved with the formation and operation of the Fat Acceptance movement. And their intelligence was obvious in the clarity of their writings and breadth and depth of their knowledge. As they drifted away from NAAFA, the Fat Acceptance movement's progress slowed, then stalled.

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1. How can it be philosophically shown that good physical health transcends the human right to be treated respectfully and lovingly?
I suspect many philosophers would argue a person's right to life, and one free of disease slightly superceeds the right to be free of verbal abuse. This is because you can usually avoid hurtful people. But disease or death is within you. However the right to be "treated respectfully and lovingly" implies an obligation on others, thereby violating their human right to be free of enslavement and their right to freedom of speech, at least from as philosophical perspective.

Stated another way, no amount of love and adoration from you can help heal your SSBBW loved one in her hospital bed.

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2. How can it be shown that experiencing illness in 30 years makes you unhealthy now?
Medical knowledge has shown that chronic illnesses frequently start decades earlier. The biggest chronic illness in the field of medicine is currently diabetes. The causal relationship of elevated weight to diabetes is well documented and understood. The explosion of diabetes is somewhat of a negative testament of the success of Fat Acceptance.

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3. How can it be shown that those fat people who experience illness experience it because of their weight, rather than due to stress, poor nutrition, lack of exercise or lack of sleep?
Because weight loss usually improves the medical indicators of BP, BG, LDL, HDL, triglycerides and sleep apnea. It's very hard to argue with empirical data that's been duplicated fairly consistently and covered by plenty of articles and studies.

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4. How can it be explained that fat people with illnesses live longer, on average, than thin people with the same?
While there is the "Obesity Paradox" w/r/t heart disease, there are limits. It really applies to the range of "overweight" (BMI of 25 to 30) and not as much for the higher BMI's. Associating it with obesity (BMI of 30 to 35) is a misnomer.

Some diseases actually kill fat people a little faster. Issues like respiratory infections and skin infections have a big impact. And I've never known an average weight person who had cellulitis. Most fat people I know have had it to varying degrees at one time or another, myself included. And cellulitis can kill. And sometimes it can start with an acne inversa site.

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5. What objective standard can be used to show that fatness is inferior to (or even is not superior to) thinness?
The objective standard of statistics. The majority of all people will find bodies in the BMI range of 20 to 25 more attractive than what we do. (My preference is a BMI of 60 to 80, but I no longer expect that. The cost to my loved one is too great.) Numerous studies have well documented that fewer negative health issues occur with more average BMI's. (But surely you've read at least some of those papers.)

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6. What is the precise, cause-and-effect relationship between fatness and poor health?

7. How does that relationship work?

8. How can mainstream medicine defend itself from the claim that it is merely assuming that correlations imply causations with regard to fatness?
There's not just one key factor. It's a multi-variate issue but at least the doctors now acknowledge it's not simply a case of overeating as the majority of the public still believe. Medical researchers are still working out all the underlying biologic mechanisms. But as some feedees do show, sufficient quantities of food do make for lush bodies.

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9. Since every person needs food to survive, in what sense is it proper to speak of a "food addiction" relative to some people, but not others?
When someone wants to stop eating when they're full (or not hungry), but they can't and they seek medical help with that issue. That's probably the "bright line" threshold of food addiction.

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10. What objective standard can be used to show that fatness is less beautiful than (or even is not more beautiful than) thinness?
Again, studies have been done.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
11. What grounds do the fat hate community have for their activities, to protect them from the accusation that they are merely citing their own, fallible sentiments, in place of actual morals?
The same grounds we self-appointed fat activists have for our activities. We each have our own sense of morality, values, and beauty we want to see increased in practice. Unfortunately we are not only the minority, but we're fighting against the rules of human physiology.



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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
12. What evidence is there that fat hate or rejection of one's natural body shape makes people healthier?

13. Or prettier?

14. Or better off?

15. Or encourages them to succeed in losing weight?

16. What evidence is there that most people who lose weight in these manners manage to keep it off for more than 5 years?

17. Or find greater happiness?

18. Or improve in overall health?

In short, how have any of the claims of fat acceptance been challenged in any way, apart from the foundation-less, sentimental drumbeat of the less critical thinkers continuing for a while?
The fact that you're asking such elementary questions says you're not ready to debate the opposition. You'll be ready once you can argue their side as well as the Fat Acceptance perspective. Your newbie status is blatantly obvious.

I'll try to answer more of these questions a little later. I've got to get to bed now.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:55 AM   #21
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Now, because much of your post leans on your answers to my final questions, and requires those answers in order to carry its points, I'll begin by addressing them, then move on to your other points.

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I suspect many philosophers would argue a person's right to life, and one free of disease slightly superceeds the right to be free of verbal abuse. This is because you can usually avoid hurtful people. But disease or death is within you. However the right to be "treated respectfully and lovingly" implies an obligation on others, thereby violating their human right to be free of enslavement and their right to freedom of speech, at least from as philosophical perspective.
This is confused. People do have moral obligations, and this in no way implies enslavement. For instance, I am morally obligated not to kill you and take all your stuff. This does not mean that I am enslaved. I still could kill someone and take their stuff. Rather, it's a moral rule, determining what I should not do. Human rights exist as an expression of this very moral rule; that there are things which it is right for people to have, and wrong for others to take from them, and all moral obligations are the same in this regard.

Now, you're right that our human rights are arranged in a heirarchy, with life being primary among that heirarchy. However, it's incorrect to prioritize freedom (read; license) over obligations to others. Any person who demands any rights, while refusing to supply the rights of others is like a man building a house with one hand and tearing it down with the other.

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Medical knowledge has shown that chronic illnesses frequently start decades earlier. The biggest chronic illness in the field of medicine is currently diabetes. The causal relationship of elevated weight to diabetes is well documented and understood. The explosion of diabetes is somewhat of a negative testament of the success of Fat Acceptance.
Two things.
1. Fat Acceptance, as you pointed out in a previous reply, in fact, did not succeed, and therefore there is no correlation between Fat Acceptance and the rise in diabetes, much less a clear connection.
2. It's not enough to say "the causal relationship is well documented and understood." Which documents? Who understands this causal relationship? Give me some arguments or evidence, so that I can deal with them. The last I heard, the correlation between diabetes and obesity was the only strong disease correlation in existence, and that even so, it was still just a correlation, and not well-supported.

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Because weight loss usually improves the medical indicators of BP, BG, LDL, HDL, triglycerides and sleep apnea. It's very hard to argue with empirical data that's been duplicated fairly consistently and covered by plenty of articles and studies.
When you say "weight loss usually" does this or that, keep in mind that what you're referring to are experiments, which are done on a group of people who are doing other things in their lives. Now, I might be wrong on this (I'm open to that possibility,) but the last I saw, there had been no studies turning up results like these, while specifically focusing on people who had lost weight in isolation from other factors, and there easily could have been. Just follow people who've had weight-loss surgery. On that score, it seems the picture is less pristine, with the dramatic decrease in weight usually having no effect, or a negative effect, upon the person's health. To me, this seems to indicate that it is not the decrease in weight, but the increase in healthy behaviors that leads to good health biomarkers. However, again, this is just a correlation, and correlation does not imply causation. I can't definitively state this, and fat-haters know this. They'll take advantage of that to try to put their point over, because they do definitively state their points as fact, even though they lack any proof to back them up with.

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While there is the "Obesity Paradox" w/r/t heart disease, there are limits. It really applies to the range of "overweight" (BMI of 25 to 30) and not as much for the higher BMI's. Associating it with obesity (BMI of 30 to 35) is a misnomer.
This is a misunderstanding. The obesity paradox refers to the longevity of those who struggle with illnesses while obese vs. not. There is no strong correlation between obesity and heart disease, as there is with diabetes. Heart disease is used as an excuse to attack the obese, but in reality, thin people suffer from heart disease almost as much in places with lousy diets, while in places like France, where a lot of natural cheeses and other normal saturated fats are consumed, heart disease rates are much lower.

At best, the risk of heart disease for an overweight person may be less than twice that for a thin person, and keep in mind when we talk about "risk," that this is not a real thing. It's an estimated percentage chance of something occurring in the future, but since we can't know anything about the future for certain, any estimates we make should be taken with a truckload of salt. "Risk" is also effected by many other factors. For example, diet and exercise can effect risk, as we were just discussing, but from what I've seen in my studies of medicine, the biggest determiner of heart disease is genetics. One of my relatives has heart disease, and I've rarely met a taller and fitter man. Yet, according to the doctors, this often happens, that a person may suffer from a heart condition inherited from their ancestors, as it was in his case.

Since we know that genetics can also effect a person's natural weight range, it's no surprise when these two factors coincide, but that far from proves that weight is the determining factor in heart disease. In fact, there's a great deal of evidence to debunk this claim.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Some diseases actually kill fat people a little faster. Issues like respiratory infections and skin infections have a big impact. And I've never known an average weight person who had cellulitis. Most fat people I know have had it to varying degrees at one time or another, myself included. And cellulitis can kill. And sometimes it can start with an acne inversa site.
Yes, if left untreated, some of these illnesses can indeed kill you. However, this is nothing unusual about fatness. Thin people are more vulnerable to seasonal illnesses, anemia, osteoporosis and reproductive issues, and some of those can kill you too. No one is safe. However, that proves nothing about fatness.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
The objective standard of statistics.
Statistics are not an objective standard. They're not even a method of proof. Countless studies of statistics have shown that simply by phrasing a study in a certain way, many studies of statistics warp the results. For instance, a while back, a study was done asking women if they were in favor of Women's Suffrage (in those very words,) and the majority said no. Now, this was done specifically to prove a point; namely, you can't trust statistics to reveal objective truth, if you can't trust the people doing the study to get across to those polled what they're really being asked, and this selective phrasing of studies can warp the results, whether the study is poll-based or not. If you're taking statistics as a standard of objective truth, it's no wonder you're having second thoughts.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
The majority of all people will find bodies in the BMI range of 20 to 25 more attractive than what we do. (My preference is a BMI of 60 to 80, but I no longer expect that. The cost to my loved one is too great.) Numerous studies have well documented that fewer negative health issues occur with more average BMI's. (But surely you've read at least some of those papers.)
I make it a hobby of mine to examine the terms of those studies for a game of "find the flaw in phrasing."

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
There's not just one key factor. It's a multi-variate issue but at least the doctors now acknowledge it's not simply a case of overeating as the majority of the public still believe. Medical researchers are still working out all the underlying biologic mechanisms. But as some feedees do show, sufficient quantities of food do make for lush bodies.
Of course, but wait... What did I just hear? That sound, that miraculous sound of...

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Medical researchers are still working out all the underlying biologic mechanisms.
Did... Did you just admit that medical professionals don't really know how fatness causes illness? I think you just admitted that. That was my entire point. Of course, as I've said in the past, trying to push your weight beyond its natural range, or developing lousy eating habits or avoiding exercise come with all their own problems. That's not even really under debate, but wow. It sure is nice to get full confirmation on my views once in a while.

Medical professionals, as a body, are claiming to know more than they do, in fact, know on the topic of weight and health. They can say that being fat will cause you health problems (big deal. Anyone can say it,) but when push comes to shove, this is still not proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
When someone wants to stop eating when they're full (or not hungry), but they can't and they seek medical help with that issue. That's probably the "bright line" threshold of food addiction.
I've never heard of anyone like that, nor is that how the term "food addiction" is used.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
The same grounds we self-appointed fat activists have for our activities. We each have our own sense of morality, values, and beauty we want to see increased in practice. Unfortunately we are not only the minority, but we're fighting against the rules of human physiology.
Well, I feel I've already shown the weaknesses in the "physiology argument," and I'm honestly disappointed to see someone on this very board advancing acceptance of this unsupported majority position, but whatever. That's your right.

In any case, you seem to think that my position on this is for sentimental reasons. No. I believe people have a moral obligation to be loving and honest to one another, on the basis of my belief in the objectivity of truth. My love for fatness only motivates me to pursue this topic, but I would never cite it as the basis for any of my claims about it.

Now that the "physiology" question has been thoroughly put to bed, let me address the other points of your reply.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Yes, it was a decision on their part...
We may disagree on how to do science and general honesty in learning information, but at least we can agree on this. Physiology does not force you to hate your body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Accept the resources currently available. (And there are many compared to over 35 years ago.) What are you looking for? Larger clothes, social groups, fat porn sites? There's probably more now than ever before. The only thing missing is a place where newly awakened FAs can spread their wings and make the typical mistakes before they mature.
These things are not relevent to me, unless one or more of them involves an environment that utterly rejects the cultural (and it is cultural, as I think I've shown,) bias against fatness, and therefore leaves room for the possibility that I can be treated like a person.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
The hostility, both from the public and from within our own ranks, will be a constant. The support you think used to be readily available was actually very spotty. Not everyone received it in similar measure. And to be very blunt, some people were needier than others. A few needed more professional help than was available from a social group of average fat folks in the process of finding themselves.
That doesn't make it right, nor sufficient. If I find that support is no longer available, I'll make one. I'm already at work on a project related to this, but I don't really want to finish it if it can be helped, because I, at least, am still concerned with the broader consequences of my actions, and don't want to do anything that hurts people for no reason.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
As for today, there are still a few groups scattered across the US, UK and other countries. Get involved and don't expect a perfect fit to your expectations. All of them are busy trying to meet their own expectations.
I've very black-and-white on this, and that shouldn't be too hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Basically the bariatric industry started using our old Fat Acceptance talking points in their advertising in the early 2000's. And they were phenomenally successful in their use to convince people to be a customer in their OR.
So they conned a bunch of people. That explains the consequences for the broader culture, but it is not justification for avoiding personal responsibility.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
And the FA's were tossed under the bus by the feminists in the Fat Acceptance movement who strenuously objected to sexuality intruding into their (hijacked) civil rights organization they were trying to morph NAAFA into.
I think of fat acceptance in a moral context; not a civil one. I'm not trying to pass any laws. I gave up on the government long ago. My position is that we should have a fat-neutral position morally, because the dignity of the human person is not effected by a few hundred pounds.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
That's even more of a Quixotic endeavor than it was in 1969 to 1999.
"Windmills, remember, if you fight with them, may swing round their huge arms and cast you down into the mire! Or up, among the stars!"
-Cyrano de Bergerac-

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Here's a couple of groups to go battle:
1) National Institute of Health
https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health-top...ht-and-obesity
2) The Obesity Society
http://www.obesity.org/home
Both groups tend to make decisions based on empirical data, not emotional opinions. You better bring your "A" game if you want to change their minds and their decisions that guide current medical practice and public policy.
I always bring my A game against everyone, but I don't always tip my hand full of "A's" right away.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
All kidding aside, I think you're oversimplifying the issue to just the perspective of an FA trying to support their preferences. And there was an element of that in NAAFA when it was started. Bill Fabrey was a devout and practicing FA who preferred SSBBWs and probably still does. (He was quite the flirtatious FA with my SSBBW wife a decade or so ago when he assured her there was plenty of room to grow before the seatbelt wouldn't fit.)
Argument ad Hominem. The validity of an argument is not effected by the emotional state of the person propounding it. If my arguments are invalid, they're invalid regardless of my feelings. If they're valid, my emotional state does not invalidate them.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
People can prefer to not be fat for many reasons. Some are simply due to social opinion. But for many others their preference is rooted in physiological reasons which you apparently discount.
I'm not suggesting a person might not have a natural, physiological desire to be thin. I know I have an unchanging need to be fat, so I'm open to the possibility that it works the other way around too, as wierd as that sounds. However, for most people, it's a decision, and for most women in particular, at least part of that decision is a desire to be liked by person/people X. Peer pressure does not cease to be peer pressure because it is institutional. That just reinforces it.

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Admiration of beauty is the precursor to lust, and lust is a prerequisite for loving sex. So your attempt to distance your stance and argument from sex is intellectually dishonest.
So am I therefore lusting after the Pacific Ocean? Or Niagara Falls? Do I want to have sex with the Painted Cliffs or a bright, pink sunset with scattered clouds reflecting the light of the sun? This objection doesn't even make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Otherwise your argument slides into the "FA infantilism" that's been proposed by a few psychologists and sociologists. That's where the FA is seeking the softness and overwhelming size difference they experienced with their mother when they were an infant. That may be true with you and if it is, that's OK. Just realize it's not what many of us experience as FAs.
As I've said in other threads, the feelings of the majority have been shoved in my face for my whole life, and have produced absolutely no effect. However, even if everything that you just said is true of me, that would still do nothing to challenge my arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
The setpoint theory of weight is a little over 25 years old. And repeated weight yo-yo-ing has been shown to increase BP, typically with weight swings of 70 lbs or more.
Yet medical professionals continue encouraging short-term weight loss for their fat patients. Heckuva time, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Of all the sub-groups of fat people (and wanna-be's), only those who get sexual self gratification should pursue it. And they need to fully appreciate that the risks are real and they accept them. It's a lifestyle of commitment. No one should do it to please anyone else but themselves. That said, they should look for someone that appreciates their efforts. Not only because it's such a rare pairing that deserves to be made, but the gainer is going to need help eventually. It shouldn't be someone likely to bail on them when the going gets tough.
Everyone needs help eventually. I agree that people who don't want to be fat shouldn't pursue a relationship with someone like me (our most basic passions constantly at each other's throats, the relationship would only be physical, and not rewarding for either of us.) My point was that "should" implies "can," so you can't really say a person "should" lose or gain weight, unless you can show how they "can," and no one's ever shown me how I "can."

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Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
No, since as an FA I've gone through the full range of emotions. Don't let your wants override your SSBBW's needs.
I thought I was pretty clear about this, but a relationship that doesn't take account of my most basic and ubiquitous passions (or hers,) is no kind of relationship at all. It's not some "want" that I can shift here or there for the purposes of completing some other task. It's easier to complete tasks alone than to join forces with someone who is hostile to everything I care about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
I have numerous friends and acquaintances who belong to MENSA, several who were involved with the formation and operation of the Fat Acceptance movement. And their intelligence was obvious in the clarity of their writings and breadth and depth of their knowledge. As they drifted away from NAAFA, the Fat Acceptance movement's progress slowed, then stalled.
Remember, I defined Fat Acceptance thusly...

"The view that fatness is not, and/or should not be treated as, a negative quality to possess."

This is not the same as some social movement or effort to make people do what you want. The kind of Fat Acceptance I'm talking about lives in the heart and flows forth to effect the decisions that a person makes about the fat people in their life.

So I suppose that's that. See you tomorrow, maybe.
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Old 12-27-2017, 08:22 AM   #22
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I am just posting so I am subscribed to this thread.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:26 PM   #23
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Man I can think back to 1997 or thereabouts and finding this place and thinking "Wow! I'm not alone!" Even back then there were endless arguments about these sorts of things but there was more cohesiveness. The "community" or whatever you want to call it is certainly fragmented and you see it on the web as well as in the real world. Politics plays a part, it's always been divisive, but it seems like much of what would have been part of the "old community" has been subsumed into ready-to-pick-a-fight-with-anyone-who-isn't-100 percent-in line-with-our-group-think crowds.

Having fat people and people who like fat people enjoy each other's company seems like a pretty simple concept, but it's gotten all too complicated.
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Old 12-27-2017, 08:05 PM   #24
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Man I can think back to 1997 or thereabouts and finding this place and thinking "Wow! I'm not alone!" Even back then there were endless arguments about these sorts of things but there was more cohesiveness. The "community" or whatever you want to call it is certainly fragmented and you see it on the web as well as in the real world. Politics plays a part, it's always been divisive, but it seems like much of what would have been part of the "old community" has been subsumed into ready-to-pick-a-fight-with-anyone-who-isn't-100 percent-in line-with-our-group-think crowds.

Having fat people and people who like fat people enjoy each other's company seems like a pretty simple concept, but it's gotten all too complicated.
I know, right? Yet, as a person, I pretty much had to learn to enjoy debating, because that's all I ever got when I expressed any of my feelings. Debates. Endless debates, and not just here, or on this topic.

More than anything, I want just one person to tell me that they understand how I feel, and that they think my feelings are good. That shouldn't be such a tall order, should it? Especially when those feelings are feelings of simple appreciation. But no. As I've said elsewhere on these boards, as much as people may say they love something, or appreciate something, or want to accomplish something, in 9 cases out of 10, their sentiments of revulsion come first.

In fairness, though, for me, these issues have been cultural, and not just on these boards. I find that a lot of people have a sort of stuck up attitude of "I refuse recognize a person's good intentions, unless they can express them on my terms." And, of course, the idea of expressing themselves on the other person's terms in exchange just sort of doesn't come up. It's a sad, sad, lonely world out there.

And in any case, to segue back to the thread's original topic, You are most definitely not alone. You're just surrounded by a lot of very quiet people who are easily pressured into doubting themselves.
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:00 AM   #25
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Resuming where I left off, here are my remaining comments to your previous post:

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
12. What evidence is there that fat hate or rejection of one's natural body shape makes people healthier?

13. Or prettier?

14. Or better off?

15. Or encourages them to succeed in losing weight?
If the "natural body shape" (#12) involves someone reaching a BMI of 60 or more, there have already been numerous studies done that shows an improvement in health outcomes following reduction in BMI. But somehow those studies (many of which are available on Medscape) are either invisible to you from your corner of the interwebs or you discount them entirely for your own reasons. Likewise for number 14. Numerous studies exist to show improvements in income or career positions following weight loss. This is unfortunately due to the formerly fatter person better fitting with the lookism based prejudices of their peers, coworkers or employer.

"Prettier" (#13) is an exceptionally subjective assessment. At most all that can be done is to say the majority of people find someone of a more average BMI to be more attractive than someone with a higher BMI.

As for #15, intense dislike of a status quo can be a great motivator to make changes. Most of my friends that had WLS cited their dislike of staying fat as their reason to risk their life on the OR table.

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Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
16. What evidence is there that most people who lose weight in these manners manage to keep it off for more than 5 years?
The studies show there are typically two approaches that result in significant maintenance of weight loss for over five years. Unfortunately the leading candidate is bariatric surgery. The other is slow weight loss achieved by significant lifestyle changes in composition and quantity of food intake as well as incorporation of purposeful exercise. The surgery usually adds in new co-morbidities the patient didn't have before surgery. The latter approach doesn't.

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17. Or find greater happiness?
Again, many report increased happiness with weight loss. Not all, but a significant percentage. This again comes from fitting with the societally acceptable "lookism" standards.

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18. Or improve in overall health?
This has been covered repeatedly.

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In short, how have any of the claims of fat acceptance been challenged in any way, apart from the foundation-less, sentimental drumbeat of the less critical thinkers continuing for a while?
Many of our foundation arguments from before 1999 have been either successfully challenged or used against us since the early 2000's. One of the more successful tactics was to transition the discussion away from the social sciences/philosophical tact you appear to be trying to pursue. Feel free to continue on that path since that seems to represent your skillset. But don't be surprised if you find yourself a couple of decades into your approach and only minor wins to claim.

The real battle is based on objective hard data that can be duplicated from a sound Design-Of-Experiment, not subjective feelings. I recommend getting a few hundred (or more) papers and articles under your belt to come up to speed on current medical knowledge in the field of obesity. Medscape is a good place to start if you don't have access to a library with medical periodicals like New England Journal of Medicine or the Lancet.
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