Dimensions Forums  
Home Register Premium Membership Health Issues Market Place Big Fashion

Go Back   Dimensions Forums > Discussion > Main Dimensions Board



Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-03-2018, 03:56 PM   #51
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
I never said that these incidents occurred because of Feminism. I also say that I have difficulty connecting the dots to arrive at Feminism, though that doesn't mean it absolutely is not true, and I would ask TwoSwords to elaborate on that.
I'd be happy to. As I see it, there are three major groups of people whose problems need addressing in relation to fatness.

1. Fat women/girls.
2. Fat men/boys.
3. FAs.

These three types of people each have needs of their own, but all three would be most benefited by the normalizing of fatness, so that groups 1 and 2 aren't met with instant discrimination for being what they are, and group 3 is not met with constant arguments for being what they are.

The major points where the cause of Fat Acceptance was weakened coincide with the times when its membership was intentionally limited from within. Time 1 is when it was tied to feminism. It's one thing to tell people, on moral principle, that you shouldn't treat people badly because of the way they look. Even I would agree with that. However, Fat Acceptance and feminism never made a good fit, because feminism hasn't really stressed moral obligations in its literature since the days of Friedan herself.

Furthermore, feminism is, in theory, all about the empowering of women, and it's unclear how being fat facilitates that, or how being empowered and a feminist would make fatness any more appealing than it was already. On top of all of this, the moral claim that people should be treated well, regardless of appearance, is one that is applicable to any group of people. A steadfast, far-right man with a super-traditional understanding of the "role" of women is still able to understand and accept that kind of moral precept. By making fatness into a "feminist issue," that is destroyed. Now, he won't accept it, just because it would require him to accept feminism. In fact, it will mainly be those who are already feminists who will buy into fat acceptance from that point on, and even then, not all of them will. Many feminists don't agree that fatness should be normalized or accepted, and almost none of them are equally-critical of those who discriminate against fat men.

Then there are the FAs, who are, sans-feminism, seen as weird and creepy. Their friends don't agree with them and think they're strange, but ultimately, harmless.

However, by taking on fat acceptance as from only the perspective of women who are fat, FAs are treated as aliens, who don't belong, either with their friends, or with the wider society, or with the people they feel for. Feminists don't want to acknowledge that men have a role in their "mission," and they don't encourage healthy relationships between men and women, for the purposes of solving their mutual problems through complimentarity. If anything, they train women to be more aggressive and more stand-offish, and thereby increase the climate of alienation against FAs, thus further harming them.

The problem is, there's a trickle-down effect to harming others. People who are treated like criminals are much more likely to behave that way (and no, I am not saying that's okay. This is just a known fact.) My mother works with young women who have to struggle with the consequences of those kinds of men being all over the place; men who put on a pleasant face until they get what they think they want, or who don't even bother. Me, I'm the man who decided to wait until someone else was ready to foster relationships on their end as well. I wait still.

Now, all of this is the case now, and was, even when feminism was a popular force in the culture. However, it has been declining in popularity, probably because young women are seeing the modern "faces" of feminism as just old women who didn't get married or have kids (and most of them didn't.) Feminist literature is incredibly hostile to children, much more so than any other ideology on Earth, and that's a sign of a lack of eagerness for relationships, so men in general don't want to be a part of that, once they're old enough to realize that there's more to life than sex.

According to the dictionary, feminism is only about equality between the sexes, and if so, I am a feminist myself. However, I'm not on board with almost anything that modern "feminism" has done, and that includes putting Fat Acceptance into a box from which, I fear, it has yet to escape.
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2018, 01:06 AM   #52
Yakatori
Hard to say, really...
 
Yakatori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: "Empire State of Mind"
Posts: 2,368
Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not all out to get you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
"I never said that these incidents occurred because of Feminism."
I know, but it was another poster, who previously brought it up, attributing said 'ruining' to 3rd Wave Feminism. Either way, it's just too perfect of an example of how people with some agenda or another will so reflexively attribute something (they don't like) to whatever cause or movement they'll just as readily acknowledge not really understanding.

Like how some people talk about stuff like BLM or Occupy Wall Street as some kind of scapegoat. So, too, for Feminism, Size Acceptance, Fat Admiration, you name it. Movements that fail to take effective control over messaging, that refuse to police their own, are like an open invitation to co-opting by other, outside vested interests or individuals, from perverts to criminals to abusers to those just trying to make a buck off of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
"The only connection I can make is that Fat Acceptance has moved to Body Positivity, a movement primarily controlled by women, since the entire concept deals with the judgment of female bodies. That in and of itself may connect it to feminism..."
Any kind of movement or set of values rooted in basic human equality and freedom would necessarily have to be sympathetic to the idea of people having some kind of sense of autonomy over their bodies. So, it's all pretty intimately tied: personal freedom, reproductive rights, a more progressive approach to human sexuality, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
"...but I'd really like to see women participate in this disucssion to give their insight."
Right, that was another point I was also just about to approach, in my explanation and response to this whole 'Dude, Where's my Car?' business. The near-total absence of any kind of genuinely feminine perspective, in both this and other threads. Gee, I wonder how that happened? What happened?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"I fail to see the point of these questions."
Because you have yet to even begin to really grapple with them. Give it shot, a you might actually learn something, gain some practical insight. Even deeper than just the topic at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"Absolutely. Students are treated much less responsibly now."
This makes it seem like you have no real idea; unless, maybe, what you actually meant to say is about how kids today, in general, as well as parents, are much less 'on-their-own,' left to their own devices, permitted to just do whatever just because. On everything from vaccinations to truancy to getting off the bus to personal conduct, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"...attempting to invalidate my points by claiming that the purpose of those points is..."
Nope. I make no such claim, expressly or implied. I am simply telling you like it is, how it's sort of presumptive, on your part, to just presume like every fat person out there's depending or otherwise dependent on whatever you're selling. They're not. They've moved-on from that.

Your cheese has grown legs and done walked away. It's left the building.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"...Both "Size Acceptance" and "Body Positivity" are so general that the intended purpose of normalizing fatness gets lost in the cracks..."
No. It doesn't. Quite the contrary, it makes the relevant message more accessible, easier to approach, for more people. Who, in turn, can practically bring more to the table than some myopic, antisocial pervert.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"I know. So, why?"
Because it speaks so much better, more elegantly, to the essential message: That a person's body is their own G_d business? Whether you're fat or thin or want to cover yourself in tattoos or scars. And, what two (or more) consenting adults are 'into' with each other is basically their own business as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"I never said I wanted all fat people to appreciate my feelings."
Except, a lot of your preconceptions and conclusions are more less just based on that. Your fee-fees.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"I never said I deserved anything. You made that part up yourself. I said people have a responsibility to each other, however, that responsibility does not come from what we deserve. So all of your points about "entitlement" or whatnot are aimed at some imaginary person who is not me."
Yeah, but it's kind of presumptive and entitled for you to imagine like it's somehow your prerogative to be defining and articulating for other people, people you really have no real idea of, where their responsibilities lie. You pull that out in the real world, and you'll promptly be told to eff-off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
"If that is your way of saying that there are other "places" that have not been overrun by "undesirable elements,"....your talk of "moving on to other phases" is moonshine, because there just isn't anywhere to move to."
Well, yeah, sort of, pretty much; although maybe not in quite the way you want to understand it. Remember, my original point, about fragmentation, in how it's become that much more fragmented. And so, the very idea of what's deemed undesirable or inappropriate is that much more subjective for it. So, for example, the kinds of behaviors that drove a lot of the women out of here, that makes this space unapproachable for some fat people (both men and women alike) would not not be tolerated in some other such venues. Just like, in others, stuff that's not even tolerated here would seem like the norm.

I mean, basically, that's the cost that comes with it, the inherent compromise. More rules might feel like less freedom for certain individual members, yet fewer of the important one makes it less accommodating others. And so it's up to each respective team of moderator to find some kind of balance.

So, yes, there are other places to move onto. That aren't (yet) over-run. But they might not prove as accessible for you. You might have to (learn to) modify your behavior as the cost of admission. You may have to suppress some of your own thoughts and desires. You may have to obey certain rules or social cues which are not so explicit, that you don't even realize what they are until after you've broken them.

Last edited by Yakatori; 01-04-2018 at 01:07 AM. Reason: mah fee-fees
Yakatori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2018, 05:20 AM   #53
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Like how some people talk about stuff like BLM or Occupy Wall Street as some kind of scapegoat. So, too, for Feminism, Size Acceptance, Fat Admiration, you name it. Movements that fail to take effective control over messaging, that refuse to police their own, are like an open invitation to co-opting by other, outside vested interests or individuals, from perverts to criminals to abusers to those just trying to make a buck off of it.
There's no question that that happened to fat acceptance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Any kind of movement or set of values rooted in basic human equality and freedom would necessarily have to be sympathetic to the idea of people having some kind of sense of autonomy over their bodies. So, it's all pretty intimately tied: personal freedom, reproductive rights, a more progressive approach to human sexuality, etc...
"Progressive" sexuality is unrelated to authentic freedom or bodily autonomy. There are always things that it is not okay to do with our bodies, like decapitating someone with a broadsword. It's still unproven that sexuality can't fall into the same category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Because you have yet to even begin to really grapple with them. Give it shot, a you might actually learn something, gain some practical insight. Even deeper than just the topic at hand.
I'm still not hearing an actual response. I think you're just saying words to say words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
This makes it seem like you have no real idea; unless, maybe, what you actually meant to say is about how kids today, in general, as well as parents, are much less 'on-their-own,' left to their own devices, permitted to just do whatever just because. On everything from vaccinations to truancy to getting off the bus to personal conduct, etc...
The responsibility for the children is on the parents, and that's what I mean when I say that children are treated less responsibly. They are handed over to a fat-hostile State to be propagandized from their youngest ages onward, while the parents pursue their own affairs. That's what I mean by "less responsibly."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Nope. I make no such claim, expressly or implied. I am simply telling you like it is, how it's sort of presumptive, on your part, to just presume like every fat person out there's depending or otherwise dependent on whatever you're selling. They're not. They've moved-on from that.
Yet another straw man. I never said or implied any of that. You are making up an opponent to argue with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Your cheese has grown legs and done walked away.
What in the heck are you talking about? Cheese doesn't grow legs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
No. It doesn't. Quite the contrary, it makes the relevant message more accessible, easier to approach, for more people. Who, in turn, can practically bring more to the table than some myopic, antisocial pervert.
Prove it.

P.S.: Yet another straw man at the end there. You do seem to love those, don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Because it speaks so much better, more elegantly, to the essential message: That a person's body is their own G_d business? Whether you're fat or thin or want to cover yourself in tattoos or scars. And, what two (or more) consenting adults are 'into' with each other is basically their own business as well?
That's another straw man. That is not the essential message. If you want people to enjoy spending time with you, you must recognize that their ability to do so will depend on certain factors. I have only two arguments against the fat-haters. The first is that I don't think it's right to treat people like crap, no matter how much you may dislike their looks. The second is the aesthetic argument. However, I don't disagree with any of their perspectives about wanting to do your part socially or please those in your life. I think those are good things to do. Your problem is that you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Really, all I'm hearing here is "I'm glad things are going better for me, and you should be glad things are going better for me too."

No. No, I'm not. Unfairness and inequality existed before, and it still exists now. What is there to be glad about?

I also think it's curious that you call other people perverts, yet you defend the sexual license of consenting adults, while I have never called you any names, yet my goals are mainly social in nature. I would never imply that it takes one to know one. Nevertheless, I think we often see things as we are, rather than seeing them as they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Yeah, but it's kind of presumptive and entitled for you to imagine like it's somehow your prerogative to be defining and articulating for other people, people you really have no real idea of, where their responsibilities lie.
Responsibilities are objective in nature. I'm not the one who defines them. They are a part of our nature as human beings, and sure, people can choose to ignore them, but they only make themselves more hateful and vile as a result of doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Well, yeah, sort of, pretty much... ...You may have to suppress some of your own thoughts and desires. You may have to obey certain rules or social cues which are not so explicit, that you don't even realize what they are until after you've broken them.
In other words, "No, and you will be assimilated."

To that, my response is this; "Bring it."

I don't give on this point, and I will protect myself from that sort of poisonous mentality that demands everything and offers nothing. It's half of the reason for my name.
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2018, 07:20 AM   #54
loopytheone
Administrator
 
loopytheone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Robinhoodland
Posts: 3,511
loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.loopytheone has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

For the record, as most of the moderating team are female, I can assure that at least some women are reading this thread to keep an eye on things, if nothing else (myself included, obviously).

As for why none of the women feel the need to join in this conversation, well, I can only speak on my own behalf and not anybody else. But this conversation has been going nowhere and I've got better things to do with my time than talk to people who aren't willing to listen. It's very obvious that none of you are even remotely willing to consider the other people's opinions and learn from them so there's nothing positive to be gained from joining in.
loopytheone is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2018, 07:48 AM   #55
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loopytheone View Post
For the record, as most of the moderating team are female, I can assure that at least some women are reading this thread to keep an eye on things, if nothing else (myself included, obviously).

As for why none of the women feel the need to join in this conversation, well, I can only speak on my own behalf and not anybody else. But this conversation has been going nowhere and I've got better things to do with my time than talk to people who aren't willing to listen. It's very obvious that none of you are even remotely willing to consider the other people's opinions and learn from them so there's nothing positive to be gained from joining in.
For what it's worth, I appreciate this point.

In my case, I want to learn whatever truthful information can be taught. Knowledge, after a fashion, is power. However, the truth is that no matter what I learn, the nature of what is needed to settle my emotions remains the same.

I don't want to conquer the world, or the internet, or whatever. I just want there to be enough room in the world for everybody (FA, fat person, thin person... even haters, perhaps,) to live their lives without feeling like they can't belong in any sphere. I don't see that that's too radical, because without that, some people will always be on the outside, looking in. If anyone should be able to understand the wrongness of that, it should be the people of these movements we've been discussing.

The great thing about the internet is that when any person with some cash can set up a forum or social networking site, anyone (in theory) can have that sort of belonging, finding those rare people in the world who can understand their feelings and their struggles. I can't claim to understand all the struggles that other people go through, but if they're anything like mine, all I can say is that I want to understand, if only to help keep the suffering of one other person from becoming like mine.

I truly hope for these things to change, so that we can come to a better solution for everyone, not just for some.
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2018, 12:05 PM   #56
wrestlingguy
"Bitter Old Man"
 
wrestlingguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,638
wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loopytheone View Post
For the record, as most of the moderating team are female, I can assure that at least some women are reading this thread to keep an eye on things, if nothing else (myself included, obviously).

As for why none of the women feel the need to join in this conversation, well, I can only speak on my own behalf and not anybody else. But this conversation has been going nowhere and I've got better things to do with my time than talk to people who aren't willing to listen. It's very obvious that none of you are even remotely willing to consider the other people's opinions and learn from them so there's nothing positive to be gained from joining in.
And with this, I'm out. For the record, I did ask for some input from another gender because I did feel it's more important to hear from those most impacted by fat bias & body judgment.

Also for the record, seeing this kind of comment from an admin on this forum saddens me, not because I think they shouldn't have opinions, but more because I'm pretty sure they've been brought to that point by so many of the incidents that have taken place in the forums during their time here. That's unfortunate.

Again, it's a reminder why I don't post with the frequency that I used to.
__________________
"O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet." ~ Saint Augustine
wrestlingguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2018, 02:02 PM   #57
DragonFly
Ahem Prema
 
DragonFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: NY - not the City think trees lots of trees
Posts: 446
DragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging in
Default

Female here - moderator here - my oponion for what it is worth

I struggled to understand the question, tried to read as many of the posts as possible..... but the dissection point by point of previous posts makes keeping up with a discussion like this a serious activity. Iíve been a little under the weather and just trying to do mod participation..... but from what I understand.... the question is similar to. Did Video kill the Radio Star.......

Fat Acceptance seemed to have been in the hands of NAAFA as an organization. There were marches, there were political calls to action. I recently got to talk to an OG about that, a FA that was there in the trenches carrying signs and pushing that fat people have the same RIGHTS as non-fat people. Discrimination based on size is what Fat Acceptance is trying to battle. NAAFA at the beginning and into the last decade had a Brigadoon quality in that it brought together like minded people for an accepting environment where you could just be you. I remember my first convention (I was a very late NAAFA participant so I saw it on the down swing and saw the demise). It was wonderful! I was fat and it was the norm. I was NAAFA fat.

NAAFA failed when it went away from the social side of things. Bashes, the internet and a ton of apps have come up that can connect the fat and the fat admirer. Filling the social gap.

Body Positivity is a joke and has nothing to do with Fat Acceptance. It has to do with how you feel about yourself. You can feel fine in you skin, and still accept size discrimination.

Social Media....is the Video of today....

I have found a couple FAs on SnapChat of all places.
DragonFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 05:12 PM   #58
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
Female here - moderator here - my oponion for what it is worth

I struggled to understand the question, tried to read as many of the posts as possible..... but the dissection point by point of previous posts makes keeping up with a discussion like this a serious activity. Iíve been a little under the weather and just trying to do mod participation..... but from what I understand.... the question is similar to. Did Video kill the Radio Star.......

Fat Acceptance seemed to have been in the hands of NAAFA as an organization. There were marches, there were political calls to action. I recently got to talk to an OG about that, a FA that was there in the trenches carrying signs and pushing that fat people have the same RIGHTS as non-fat people. Discrimination based on size is what Fat Acceptance is trying to battle. NAAFA at the beginning and into the last decade had a Brigadoon quality in that it brought together like minded people for an accepting environment where you could just be you. I remember my first convention (I was a very late NAAFA participant so I saw it on the down swing and saw the demise). It was wonderful! I was fat and it was the norm. I was NAAFA fat.

NAAFA failed when it went away from the social side of things. Bashes, the internet and a ton of apps have come up that can connect the fat and the fat admirer. Filling the social gap.

Body Positivity is a joke and has nothing to do with Fat Acceptance. It has to do with how you feel about yourself. You can feel fine in you skin, and still accept size discrimination.

Social Media....is the Video of today....

I have found a couple FAs on SnapChat of all places.
Thank you. This has explained more on this topic, and in a clearer, briefer way, than almost any reply I've received.

I suppose I only have two remaining questions. When you say NAAFA went away from the "social side of things," are you referring to events that connect like-minded people, or means of giving such people the chance to discuss topics of importance to their cause, or did you mean something else by "social?"

Question 2; It sounds like you're suggesting that Social Media is just a new medium that FA has failed to adapt to (the video/radio star analogy at least seems to imply this.) Is there any good reason why FA can't have "video stars" in an organized and reasonable way on Social Media, so-as to foster an atmosphere of fat positivity and normalization in at least one section of the internet, or is it just that it hasn't happened yet?
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2018, 05:38 PM   #59
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
Because it speaks so much better, more elegantly, to the essential message: That a person's body is their own G_d business?
I want to point out one more thing with regard to this point, which I don't think I made sufficiently clear.

There's a phenomena going on now, where people will enter a movement that they may care about on some level, but once inside that movement, they begin to attach additional requirements to being part of that movement. This is why I've been careful to point out whenever some point you've been stressing is not absolutely essential to being accepting of fatness.

Now, whether you think these additional requirements are "better" or "more elegant" is beside the point. The fact is, they are additional requirements, and causes will generally be more attractive to the majority of people if they don't need to shoulder a whole lot of extra burdens, in order to belong to those causes. This isn't even mentioning how the specific extra burden being proposed may be different from one person to the next within the movement. If different people consider different "requirements" "better," the movement can fracture due to complete irrelevancies.

This didn't happen with the struggle for civil rights for black people. It didn't happen, because that movement had leaders who kept the message where it needed to be; that it is wrong to treat a person as a second-class citizen just because of their skin color. More often, their disagreements were due to what methods they thought were best to use, rather than what the overall goal was. They knew there was a problem, and they recognized what that problem was.

This seems to be lacking in fat acceptance today; a leader of some sort is needed to draw the message back where it needs to be; that treating people like crap because of how they look is scummy behavior, no matter what your reasons for doing so. The issue is that this is a problem with interpersonal conduct; not strictly a result of laws. Worse yet, the targets of fat hate are mainly women (probably because this kind of abuse-based "motivating" only makes most men retaliate, or else laugh it off.)

I say this is worse because of the atmosphere this has created. I've been mainly on the sidelines while the fat acceptance thing was defined, by women in the movement, as a women's issue, then a feminist issue, then a "no men need apply" issue. I've seen men barred from having a voice in the discussion, as the women involved were more scared of the private thoughts of someone who liked them than of being treated abusively in a public forum. As a consequence, Fat Acceptance has been described by more than one person on this thread as "dead."

No movement can succeed if less than half of all people are allowed to be part of it. It just doesn't work that way. I don't believe this movement failed because it's a weak cause. I believe it failed because it was defended too weakly by those who'd cordoned off the guardhouse to keep capable guards out.



P.S.: Sorry if I'm coming across as cruel. I don't mean to be. However, I have had just about enough of this. Nothing in the world is more obvious than the fact that people of differing appearances, and those who like them, should be treated with the same love and respect due to every human being by virtue of their human nature, yet this is being denied or thrown away over some other, unrelated issues, even here. I have half a mind to start researching what's required to start a new branch of social media specifically for people who recognize the clear greatness of fatness, so we can share our struggles with the constant opposition in other venues, without being told we need to "adapt."
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 09:58 AM   #60
wrestlingguy
"Bitter Old Man"
 
wrestlingguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,638
wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.wrestlingguy has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
No movement can succeed if less than half of all people are allowed to be part of it. It just doesn't work that way. I don't believe this movement failed because it's a weak cause. I believe it failed because it was defended too weakly by those who'd cordoned off the guardhouse to keep capable guards out.
THIS.

For those of you who haven't read the blog Why I'm Over The Size Acceptance Movement or Hey, SA, What Have You Done For Me Lately?,
I strongly urge you to do so. While the blog doesn't specifically address the point made here by TwoSwords (who has made some very salient points in the rest of this post), it does allude to it, and makes some key points with other reasons why the movement hasn't accomplished what it set out to do.

For me at least, it seems that the movement is fragmented by the "leaders", who are more concerned with advancing their own agenda than the needs of those who support it. Once those supporters realize that, they tend to drop out of the movement. That, combined with what appears to be the near exclusion of men and non fat women as allies to the movement reduces their voice proportionately.

You are also absolutely correct when you say the civil rights movement still managed to pull together for the greater good. Dr. King & Malcolm X were always at odds with regard to methods of achieving rights for black Americans, but they were truly united when they both acknowledged that getting those rights were absolutely essential.

And yes, it was my intention to avoid posting further in the thread, but the point made was so important that I had to recognize it. See ya later.
__________________
"O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet." ~ Saint Augustine
wrestlingguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 10:31 AM   #61
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
THIS.

And yes, it was my intention to avoid posting further in the thread, but the point made was so important that I had to recognize it. See ya later.
Thank you very much. See you as well.

And yes; I was referring to Dr. King and Malcolm X when I said that. I'm pleased you caught on to that.
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 05:02 PM   #62
DragonFly
Ahem Prema
 
DragonFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: NY - not the City think trees lots of trees
Posts: 446
DragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging in
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
Thank you. This has explained more on this topic, and in a clearer, briefer way, than almost any reply I've received.

I suppose I only have two remaining questions. When you say NAAFA went away from the "social side of things," are you referring to events that connect like-minded people, or means of giving such people the chance to discuss topics of importance to their cause, or did you mean something else by "social?"

Question 2; It sounds like you're suggesting that Social Media is just a new medium that FA has failed to adapt to (the video/radio star analogy at least seems to imply this.) Is there any good reason why FA can't have "video stars" in an organized and reasonable way on Social Media, so-as to foster an atmosphere of fat positivity and normalization in at least one section of the internet, or is it just that it hasn't happened yet?
I donít think it is becaus the Fat Activism movement hasnít adapted to Social Media, I think that the game has changed. As advances are made the force is diluted and splintered and focused on different areas.
DragonFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 08:13 PM   #63
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
I don’t think it is becaus the Fat Activism movement hasn’t adapted to Social Media, I think that the game has changed. As advances are made the force is diluted and splintered and focused on different areas.
I guess I just don't understand why that would necessarily follow, or what it is about "advances" that caused the force to dilute, or what about the game has made it so hard for the FA movement to learn the rules.

I don't think the world, or technology, or smartphones can be to blame for all the disunity that is currently being experienced. Some of it, perhaps, indirectly, but not all.
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 10:08 PM   #64
HereticFA
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 759
HereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging in
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlingguy View Post
THIS.

For those of you who haven't read the blog Why I'm Over The Size Acceptance Movement or Hey, SA, What Have You Done For Me Lately?,
I strongly urge you to do so. While the blog doesn't specifically address the point made here by TwoSwords (who has made some very salient points in the rest of this post), it does allude to it, and makes some key points with other reasons why the movement hasn't accomplished what it set out to do.

Unfortunately the author commits the same mistakes as people did during what she refers as SA 101. She complains that she didn't find a perfect fit to her expectations of the movement. It's that "What have you done for me" attitude that has always held back the movement. But it's rooted in the fundamental issue that we don't share the same priorities.

Even her own works should illustrate to her (and others) why nothing is a perfect fit. Her own work with Feminist Press was to scratch her itch, not necessarily what all other fat people and supporters wanted. That's always what has happened in the Fat Acceptance movement. Volunteers usually work on what interests themselves, especially if it's self funded.

I say it's the author who hasn't been able to progress beyond Fat Acceptance 101 in her own development. I believe the Movement made it to at least 401 (or my preference, 4.0).

We went from isolated fat individuals to a general community, then to more targeted communities. We went from very few choices in larger size clothing to several stores catering to larger size fashions. We went from timid fat people victimized by others to fat people willing to defend their own lives and set their own priorities. We did hit the wall for a few areas like airline seating but that's a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of issues. Our progress stopped with the emergence of the RNY WLS procedure in the early 2000's. That appeared to be the "magic pill" NAAFA members said
they would take if offered. (This was from a survey conducted in the 90's.)

And the progression to 4.0 was when we started being involved in FDA medication approvals with the participation of Lynn McAfee of the Council for Size and Weight Discrimination on a couple of FDA panels. But we did plateau out at 4.0 a couple of decades ago.
HereticFA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2018, 10:11 PM   #65
Yakatori
Hard to say, really...
 
Yakatori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: "Empire State of Mind"
Posts: 2,368
Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default ^You keep doing it!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
....made it so hard for the FA movement to learn the rules...
You keep (deliberately) conflating what everyone else recognizes as distinctly separate things. Fat Admiration isn't necessarily tied to activism, of any kind. And you don't have to be a Fat Admirer to support Size Acceptance or any other such type of activism.
Yakatori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 03:05 AM   #66
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
Unfortunately the author commits the same mistakes as people did during what she refers as SA 101. She complains that she didn't find a perfect fit to her expectations of the movement. It's that "What have you done for me" attitude that has always held back the movement. But it's rooted in the fundamental issue that we don't share the same priorities.
I did notice that. Though she addresses the issue of men not having a large enough role, or black women not having a large enough role, and asks why we can't recognize differences and be okay with them, she does seem to be looking for something to fit her specifically as well, and that shows a lack of interest in Fat Acceptance in the general sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
We did hit the wall for a few areas like airline seating but that's a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of issues. Our progress stopped with the emergence of the RNY WLS procedure in the early 2000's. That appeared to be the "magic pill" NAAFA members said they would take if offered. (This was from a survey conducted in the 90's.)
I think the important point about many of these issues is to not let them distract from the central claim of the movement, and that makes it important to understand what that claim is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakatori View Post
You keep (deliberately) conflating what everyone else recognizes as distinctly separate things. Fat Admiration isn't necessarily tied to activism, of any kind. And you don't have to be a Fat Admirer to support Size Acceptance or any other such type of activism.
And you keep implying, falsely, that "Size Acceptance" is an adequate replacement for anything that specifically addresses the problematic attitudes about fatness. I was replying to DragonFly, who didn't overtly address "Size Acceptance" in her response to me.

While I don't think anyone should be treated badly based on their appearance alone, the fact is that the challenge faced by fat people is a very unique one, and the challenge faced by FAs even more so. You don't need to be an FA to believe that fat isn't a bad thing, and you don't need to be one to believe that fat people can be accepted, or to believe that liking fat people is acceptable. In fact, I don't recall having precisely brought up fat admiration at any point in my last 5 replies at least. I think you're the one who's fixated on that point, and that's exactly the problem I was addressing. When you have a serious problem to take care of, you've got to take care of it first, and worry about the tiny distinctions afterwards. All the better if that serious problem brings more people together to resolve it, but a lot of these additional requirements just focus the movement on non-essentials and reduce its number of supporters, as I said.

That said, however, I do believe that fat admirers have a very different kind of social challenge ahead of them, because like everyone else, they need to find some way to live their lives, and while fat people may have recourse to encouraging people to focus on who they are inside; their spirits, feelings, hopes and dreams, the FA has no such option, because their feelings, hopes and dreams are of a type against which the whole world is entirely hostile. For the FA, distracting people from the issue won't work. Only actual acceptance will, and that's one of many reasons why I want to see this issue addressed specifically, and a solution found for all concerned.

P.S.: I can't help but notice you didn't respond to any of what I said in reply to you.
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 07:16 AM   #67
HereticFA
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 759
HereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging inHereticFA makes people happy simply by logging in
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I think the important point about many of these issues is to not let them distract from the central claim of the movement, and that makes it important to understand what that claim is.

<quote snipped>

And you keep implying, falsely, that "Size Acceptance" is an adequate replacement for anything that specifically addresses the problematic attitudes about fatness. I was replying to DragonFly, who didn't overtly address "Size Acceptance" in her response to me.
everyone
All your posts indicate a lack of familiarity with the history of the movement. In the beginning the focus was solely on acceptance of fat. I'm one of the generation who joined NAAFA in the eighties and authored one of the more successful advertising taglines "It's time you did something about your weight: accept it." It ran for about three years in the ninties in their nation wide advertising. Over time, most of us realized it wasn't just about accepting fat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
While I don't think anyone should be treated badly based on their appearance alone, the fact is that the challenge faced by fat people is a very unique one, and the challenge faced by FAs even more so. You don't need to be an FA to believe that fat isn't a bad thing, and you don't need to be one to believe that fat people can be accepted, or to believe that liking fat people is acceptable. In fact, I don't recall having precisely brought up fat admiration at any point in my last 5 replies at least. I think you're the one who's fixated on that point, and that's exactly the problem I was addressing. When you have a serious problem to take care of, you've got to take care of it first, and worry about the tiny distinctions afterwards. All the better if that serious problem brings more people together to resolve it, but a lot of these additional requirements just focus the movement on non-essentials and reduce its number of supporters, as I said.

That said, however, I do believe that fat admirers have a very different kind of social challenge ahead of them, because like everyone else, they need to find some way to live their lives, and while fat people may have recourse to encouraging people to focus on who they are inside; their spirits, feelings, hopes and dreams, the FA has no such option, because their feelings, hopes and dreams are of a type against which the whole world is entirely hostile. For the FA, distracting people from the issue won't work. Only actual acceptance will, and that's one of many reasons why I want to see this issue addressed specifically, and a solution found for all concerned.
History is replete with examples of people seeking Utopia. You're just another person on that quest. Unfortunately everyones goal of what they want is different and that's where the conflict occurs.

The real answer is to help people develop their personal strength sufficiently so they aren't dependent on acceptance from others. It's called being self-actualized. Get to that place in your life where others seek validation from you. Otherwise you'll be trapped in a lifetime game of Twister trying to please everyone elsebut yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
P.S.: I can't help but notice you didn't respond to any of what I said in reply to you.
Since I was unable to respond for three days due to being a caregiver to my formerly SSBBW wife, and the discussion appeared to be reaching a natural end I didn't respond.

Plus there's the issue that I did respond to most of your points, but you discounted them based on arbitrary interpretations of the rules of debate that you apply to others but conveniently fail to follow yourself.

I'll directly address your initiating post in #1:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
I just couldn't trust social media and search engines to deliver what I wanted them to when I tried to do research on fatness and fat acceptance. Go ahead. Try it. Try using Yahoo, Google, Ask... Heck, use Duckduckgo if you think it'll help. The vast majority of searches will turn up opposition to these things, rather than the things themselves.

You've fallen into the trap of the younger generation: thinking the Internet can be used as a tool for primary research for anything other than current events. The half-life for information on the Internet is about three to five years. (In other words, roughly half the information disappears every three to five years unless there's a commercial reason to retain it.) Since the Fat Acceptance movement hasn't really been active since the early 2000's, all those Fat Acceptance posts (and most importantly, NEW posts) stopped. What you're seeing is evidence of data rot. Most of that information existed on the old servers from the AOL and Compuserve through the Alta-Vista eras.

On top of the data rot issue, we're in the age of "Google ranking" services. Companies that create fake websites that reference weight loss oriented websites to drive traffic to diet programs, bariatric surgery websites, and other similar websites. That creates pages of search engine hits that obscure and overwhelm any search for fat acceptance related websites.

Last edited by HereticFA; 01-08-2018 at 07:28 AM. Reason: Add thought
HereticFA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 02:19 PM   #68
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
All your posts indicate a lack of familiarity with the history of the movement. In the beginning the focus was solely on acceptance of fat. I'm one of the generation who joined NAAFA in the eighties and authored one of the more successful advertising taglines "It's time you did something about your weight: accept it." It ran for about three years in the ninties in their nation wide advertising. Over time, most of us realized it wasn't just about accepting fat.
Yeah. I can do it too.
I think this is a topic I've been quite direct in describing for the last few replies. The only difference is in how we see these secondary requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
History is replete with examples of people seeking Utopia.
Did you really not understand what I was talking about? What I'm talking about could be offered by one person on a whim, with a little bit of time and self-control, and it would cost them nothing. That's not the same thing as "utopia." Don't be that guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
The real answer is to help people develop their personal strength sufficiently so they aren't dependent on acceptance from others. It's called being self-actualized. Get to that place in your life where others seek validation from you. Otherwise you'll be trapped in a lifetime game of Twister trying to please everyone elsebut yourself.
I believe the phrase "no man is an island" has demonstrated sufficient longevity and reliability to refute this point on general principle.

And for the record, most of what you're now responding to was actually directed at Yakatori, not you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
You've fallen into the trap of the younger generation: thinking the Internet can be used as a tool for primary research for anything other than current events. The half-life for information on the Internet is about three to five years. (In other words, roughly half the information disappears every three to five years unless there's a commercial reason to retain it.)
That's false. I've been doing a weekly video series (on largely unrelated topics to this one) for more than seven years, and my earliest episodes can still be found by googling them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
On top of the data rot issue, we're in the age of "Google ranking" services. Companies that create fake websites that reference weight loss oriented websites to drive traffic to diet programs, bariatric surgery websites, and other similar websites. That creates pages of search engine hits that obscure and overwhelm any search for fat acceptance related websites.
Now we're getting somewhere. It sounds like the sort of internet loophole that anyone could exploit.
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2018, 08:02 PM   #69
DragonFly
Ahem Prema
 
DragonFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: NY - not the City think trees lots of trees
Posts: 446
DragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging in
Default

I know that the debate and discussion is a bit heated.. But it is so darn nice to see discussion about Fat things. I know that we all have our own opinions and ideas of the past and what the future should look like. I know that right now I don't necessarily agree with the way activism is happening right now. I feel that there are so many sub groups of humanity looking to be recognized and accommodate by changes in everything from voter registration forms to how we view basic human dynamics.

Can we put this discussion back on track and give me something to dig my teeth into, Fat Activism is about Fat people's rights. I want the same rights as other people. Body image is way down on the list that I need. I need to have medical equipment, I need to be assured that there is not legal discrimination about weight. Even though there are all sorts non-discrimination laws it still happens because it is hard to prove. So what can be done?
DragonFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 05:21 AM   #70
Yakatori
Hard to say, really...
 
Yakatori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: "Empire State of Mind"
Posts: 2,368
Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!Yakatori keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default ^sONofbii...


Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
"Body image is way down on the list that I need. I need to have medical equipment, I need to be assured that there is not legal discrimination about weight.... So what can be done?"
Okay, I know you're not trying to be ironic here. Like, it's not intended that way, but....

How are people, in general, going to fight for everything that's theirs, basic human rights, indeed their very lives, without an underlying confidence in their own personal equality? How is any kind of large-scale, wholesale type of change going to happen anywhere, in any way, without a lot of people persistently fighting for it?

Isn't acceptance, basic personal acceptance, of one's own appearance a foundational part of of strong self-esteem?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
"NAAFA at the beginning and into the last decade had a Brigadoon quality in that it brought together like minded people for an accepting environment where you could just be you. I remember my first convention (I was a very late NAAFA participant so I saw it on the down swing and saw the demise). It was wonderful! I was fat and it was the norm. I was NAAFA fat....NAAFA failed when it went away from the social side of things. "
Just as, don't you think, Dimensions followed a similar progression?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
"Bashes, the internet and a ton of apps have come up that can connect the fat and the fat admirer. Filling the social gap....found a couple FAs on SnapChat of all places."
But, the million dollar question is: Is this actually a sole reason for why? I mean, it's kind of like a chicken/egg type of dynamic, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
"Body Positivity is a joke and has nothing to do with Fat Acceptance. It has to do with how you feel about yourself. You can feel fine in you skin, and still accept size discrimination."
Do you speak from personal experience? Because I'm inclined to disagree. I think a lot of our biased attitudes towards size and, indeed, our willingness to accept this wherever we might come across it comes from a general and deeply personal feeling of insecurity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
"The real answer is to help people develop their personal strength sufficiently so they aren't dependent on acceptance from others. It's called being self-actualized. Get to that place in your life...Otherwise you'll be trapped in a lifetime game of...trying to please everyone else but yourself.
Yes, although a better calibrated movement can play an enormous role in helping a lot of people move a lot closer in that direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
"...most of us realized it wasn't just about accepting fat...
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
"..fallen into the trap of the younger generation: thinking the Internet can be used as a tool for primary research for anything other than current events. The half-life for information on the Internet is about...
This too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticFA View Post
"All your posts indicate a lack of familiarity with the history of...
And, full-stop, right there.
Yakatori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 12:59 PM   #71
ScreamingChicken
One of 50,298
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,546
ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!ScreamingChicken keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default

Social media isn't the problem. It's what social media has done to revel the true colors of certain people within the community that has been the proverbial fly in the ointment. Let me explain.

Prior to Facebook, Twitter, and the other social media sites out there, your online interaction with other members of the community was limited to places like Dimensions and the few other message boards that were out there that catered to fat people and their admirers. You had a screenname where you could say and do whatever wanted to with almost no repercussions beyond that particular message board. You didn't necessarily put your picture out there , let alone your real name. You had anonymity and all the things that goes with it (provided you never interacted with anyone from that particular site outside of that site).

Now introduce Facebook and posters from all these sites migrated there and added to their friends lists the people they have met online. Individual circles start to overlap as well. We now how real names with real faces at play. And more than a few of those names and faces have no problems using their Facebook timelines to scream (pun intended) their politics and social views from the tops of their lungs because now the board rules no longer apply and it is THEIR space. In the process, people most likely came to four conclusions....1) the people I agreed with all those years are really cool because they are just like me ideologically 2) the people whom I suspected were flaming assholes all those years really are flaming assholes 3) the people who I wasn't sure about pleasantly surprised me or 4) the people I wasn't sure about really disappointed me.

In my experience, group 2 came up a lot when I have encountered people from the fat community on Facebook. Not all of them mind you (I keep a small number of Dimmers on my social media and my GF is a Dimmer as well) but enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth. This community that once valued tolerance and acceptance has shown a shitty track record of doing just the very opposite. Some of the more visible posters from years past are especially guilty of this in my opinion.

My point is once people saw the real faces of their fellow community members outside of Dimensions on Facebook , the likelihood of pulling away from the community increased along with the subsequent fragmentation. Why put up with the negative BS if you don't have to?
ScreamingChicken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 02:45 PM   #72
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
I know that the debate and discussion is a bit heated.. But it is so darn nice to see discussion about Fat things. I know that we all have our own opinions and ideas of the past and what the future should look like. I know that right now I don't necessarily agree with the way activism is happening right now. I feel that there are so many sub groups of humanity looking to be recognized and accommodate by changes in everything from voter registration forms to how we view basic human dynamics.
The sad truth is that what's "basic" for one person may be utterly indecypherable for another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
Can we put this discussion back on track and give me something to dig my teeth into, Fat Activism is about Fat people's rights.
This discussion was originally supposed to be about the inadequate presence of fat acceptance/fat positivity/fat normalization on social media and the internet in general. Activism as such is not a required component of that. You just need two or more people who are willing to accept that fat is not evil, and boom. You've got your fat-normalized environment. My concern is how there don't seem to be any of those, online or elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonFly View Post
Body image is way down on the list that I need. I need to have medical equipment, I need to be assured that there is not legal discrimination about weight. Even though there are all sorts non-discrimination laws it still happens because it is hard to prove. So what can be done?
These two things you mention are very different. One is a social custom, which can only stem from a change in attitude about fatness. The other is a problem that most people will eventually have, which stems jointly from our mortality and our limited number of resources.

The truth is that while we can make overt discrimination illegal, and try to discourage it in public places, the only way to excise hate from the human heart is with love. A change in the policies of society will only come about as a reflection of a change in the human spirit. Therefore, acceptance. You can't both treat something as a poison to be eradicated, and also expect it to be publicly loved and respected. You've got to choose. I've made my choice about this, and I hope you have as well, but it's important to be a great deal less ambiguous about it, so people know we mean what we say.

When fatness is more accepted, it will be less discriminated against.

On the topic of medical equipment, I'm not 100% sure what you mean to imply by this term, so for now, I'll take it at face value. As I see it, this is one of the few areas in which the internet has done fat people tremendous good. While there are some pieces of medical equipment that don't work as well for fat people (certain kinds of wheelchairs and blood pressure monitors spring to mind,) you can, at present, find good alternatives that do work on fat people, and they're just a brief Amazon search away. There may be one or two products still unaccounted for in this area, but a large portion of this battle has been won already.
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 03:01 PM   #73
TwoSwords
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 428
TwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticedTwoSwords never has a post go unnoticed
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreamingChicken View Post
Social media isn't the problem. It's what social media has done to revel the true colors of certain people within the community that has been the proverbial fly in the ointment. Let me explain.

Prior to Facebook, Twitter, and the other social media sites out there, your online interaction with other members of the community was limited to places like Dimensions and the few other message boards that were out there that catered to fat people and their admirers. You had a screenname where you could say and do whatever wanted to with almost no repercussions beyond that particular message board. You didn't necessarily put your picture out there , let alone your real name. You had anonymity and all the things that goes with it (provided you never interacted with anyone from that particular site outside of that site).

Now introduce Facebook and posters from all these sites migrated there and added to their friends lists the people they have met online. Individual circles start to overlap as well. We now how real names with real faces at play. And more than a few of those names and faces have no problems using their Facebook timelines to scream (pun intended) their politics and social views from the tops of their lungs because now the board rules no longer apply and it is THEIR space. In the process, people most likely came to four conclusions....1) the people I agreed with all those years are really cool because they are just like me ideologically 2) the people whom I suspected were flaming assholes all those years really are flaming assholes 3) the people who I wasn't sure about pleasantly surprised me or 4) the people I wasn't sure about really disappointed me.

In my experience, group 2 came up a lot when I have encountered people from the fat community on Facebook. Not all of them mind you (I keep a small number of Dimmers on my social media and my GF is a Dimmer as well) but enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth. This community that once valued tolerance and acceptance has shown a shitty track record of doing just the very opposite. Some of the more visible posters from years past are especially guilty of this in my opinion.

My point is once people saw the real faces of their fellow community members outside of Dimensions on Facebook , the likelihood of pulling away from the community increased along with the subsequent fragmentation. Why put up with the negative BS if you don't have to?
I suppose that's possible, but I sort of expect the people in my life to have their own struggles, if I'm lucky. I think it's unfortunate for people on the internet to bring their real identities into it. I don't mention my full name in any of my comments here, because I don't think it's important. I've heard it said before, but it's not who I am on the inside, but what I do that defines me.

What puzzles me is that so many people who previously had such a need to discuss these matters, suddenly decided they no longer needed that, because a few people had turned out to be kind of lame. My need to talk about fatness and my feelings about it would be the same, even if everyone on Earth was a jerk, and I could prove that.

The one thing we need to watch out for, though, is that I'm the exception to the rule on this matter. Most people are able to make friends casually among those with normal feelings, and therefore don't need to resort to special groups like the kind we're discussing. Behaving horribly won't make such discussion any more mainstream, and won't convince anyone that we're sincere. That's what I truly believe.

For the record, my views on controversial topics are probably way different than those of anyone else here. But that doesn't change the fact that I need the chance for discussions about fatness. My heart bleeds for them, and while I can understand why some others don't have this same issue, I hope that you can understand my confusion. To me, it would be like the masked man from the Princess Bride letting go of the rope and letting himself fall because midway up the mountain, he found out Inigo Montoya voted for Prince Humperdink.
TwoSwords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2018, 08:35 PM   #74
DragonFly
Ahem Prema
 
DragonFly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: NY - not the City think trees lots of trees
Posts: 446
DragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging inDragonFly makes people happy simply by logging in
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post

P.S.: Sorry if I'm coming across as cruel. I don't mean to be. However, I have had just about enough of this. Nothing in the world is more obvious than the fact that people of differing appearances, and those who like them, should be treated with the same love and respect due to every human being by virtue of their human nature, yet this is being denied or thrown away over some other, unrelated issues, even here. I have half a mind to start researching what's required to start a new branch of social media specifically for people who recognize the clear greatness of fatness, so we can share our struggles with the constant opposition in other venues, without being told we need to "adapt."
Going to hit a couple of points then address the below. First medical equipment is not where it needs to be. I have been left sitting in a wheelchair for hours waiting while they locate a bariatric hospital bed. Large blood pressure cuffs hurt and very few medical personel know how to accurately do this on the forearm. Weight based medications are not tested on large people it is a gamble when they dose fat people. I could go on and on. Amazon doesnít have needed surgical equipment or radiation treatment supplies.

Second- there does need a place for fatties to gather for solidarity on social media. Hashtags are the new group identifier.
DragonFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2018, 09:41 AM   #75
RabbitScorpion
vienna carrier-no venom
 
RabbitScorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Is it Detredo or Toltroit?
Posts: 696
RabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions communityRabbitScorpion is a pillar of the Dimensions community
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSwords View Post
Anecdotal evidence is a funny thing, because, you see, people only really report the cases where something bad happens. In the same way that you rarely read the newspaper headline "Good, hardworking people do their jobs," so you rarely hear about the instances where weight did not strongly effect health, and people were happy together.



There have been a few studies like this, all of them turning up comparable results. Regular physical activity is most definitely good for you, so long as you don't overdo it, and get some kind of athletics-related injury or something.



It's also been shown that those who lose large amounts of weight over a relatively-short time are actually in an even higher risk category than the obese, for whatever that's worth.



From what I've seen, the following factors have been shown to be bad for people, in terms of being responsible for health issues usually associated with obesity (with the first on this list being the ones that have the most proof behind them.)
Trans fats (Obviously)
Trans fats are saturated fats, thus unhealthy, but I can't say butter or lard are one iota less unhealthy. Calorie wise, they and liquid lipids, such as vegetable oils, are the same 9cal/g.
Lack of exercise
Excessive intake of refined sugars
Yo-yo dieting
High-Fructose Corn Syrup
HFCS is a lightning rod to those that believe that anything that was not given by the "Earth Mother" is sinful and unhealthy. Reality is, it's just another refined sugar, albeit refined from mays, instead of cane or beets. People who think they can wolf down desserts made with "natural" cane sugar are in for nasty surprises decades down the road.
__________________
Knot awl airs our cot buy spell Czech!
RabbitScorpion is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2014 Breached the Ramparts of Lies biodieselman Hyde Park (Archive Only) 5 01-01-2015 06:44 PM
Social Phobia/Anxiety largenlovely Health Forum 38 08-06-2013 12:13 AM
Spin off from debate thread- Double Standards in media politics KittyKitten Hyde Park (Archive Only) 6 10-14-2012 01:59 PM
Your social life since Dims BigCutieSasha Main Dimensions Board 14 10-30-2009 10:48 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Dimensions Magazine. All rights reserved worldwide.