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Old 04-16-2007, 04:16 PM   #201
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He wouldn't get in trouble legally for helping someone starve, though it would be a horrible thing to do. I'm glad that TSL brought up the connections between the two scenarios. I find that really interesting.
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:25 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by MisticalMisty View Post
You've brought up some really interesting points. The one I bolded is the one I have questions. How can anyone prove that he enabled you to be anorexic? How would anyone be able to prove that a guy was the cause of massive weight gain in a woman?

Unless there was documentation that the feedee was being force feed, I can't really see how someone would be able to prove that the guy actually caused the weight gain. We all eat.. there are millions of fat people that over indulge on a daily basis, how could one prove that another person was responsible for me getting fat?
I think a DA could reasonably argue it was "brain-washing." Yup, juries would fall for that horseshit in a minute, and if you or me is ruled we're not sane, we don't have to press the charges. The state will for us.

I have a good friend who's a schizo and her husband has gotten in trouble for neglect, despite the fact he can't help it that she's insane and won't take her meds. They're legally separated now because he can't be going into court because he's considered her default guardian and she's perceived as a threat to others.

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I think these are excellent questions, especially in terms of government services.

It's also a slippery slope... if I didn't force myself to get fat, but chose to lead my life as a fat person and someday was disabled as an effect of something related, am I also denied? I'm sure some would say yes... it's your fault.

I'm not arguing, to be clear, I just think it's an interesting train of thought, and could lead in a lot of very weird/scary directions for the "naturally" fat among us.

I suppose bottom line though, is that disabled is disabled, no matter how it happened... I don't think someone suffering from meth mouth and on the skids has any trouble getting assistance if they're playing the game and jumping through the bureaucratic hoops.
Too excited that work is almost over, but good points. Will reply later. Didn't ignore them though.

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He wouldn't get in trouble legally for helping someone starve.
Lemme clarify: Helping someone alter their bodies to the point of sickness could have serious legal ramifications. Don't see why it couldn't. Example: A D has a sub agree to restrict. The Dom/me foreseeably could be in an assload of of trouble if the state presses charges if the sub gets ill, if that person is found to be mentally unstable.

ETA: I gots to jet, folks, but now I'm interested. BB real soon!
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:30 PM   #203
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Lemme clarify: Helping someone alter their bodies to the point of sickness could have serious legal ramifications. Don't see why it couldn't. Example: A D has a sub agree to restrict. The Dom/me foreseeably could be in an assload of of trouble if the state presses charges if the sub gets ill, if that person is found to be mentally unstable.
Most certainly, if the person is found to be legally incompetent, the Dom or whomever could be charged with gross indifference at the very least. That said, it's rather difficult to prove that someone is mentally incompetent. You could get away with a hell of a lot of manipulation bordering on abuse and not be legally liable for it. The 'victim' has to be pretty demonstrably mentally ill or incapable of making informed decisions for it to be otherwise.

But whether or not it could get you sent to the clink, taking advangate of someone's fragile mental state for your own erotic gains is a monstrous thing to do. I wasn't sure if in the midst of all of my legal rantings I made it clear that of course I believe that.

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Old 04-16-2007, 04:34 PM   #204
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one more thing reiterating what Misty said earlier-- does anyone have any idea or impression of how often, if at all, feederism ever actually drifts into immobility territory? i'm really curious.
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:36 PM   #205
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Default Take out the sexual component.

Let's say you have a chronic illness. Your quality of life decreases each day and you have no chance of recovering. As an adult of sound mind, you wish to end your life as you believe this illness will affect your quality of life to the point that you don't believe living is worth it.

You decide to simply quit eating and let nature take its course. I think the human body will live for something like 4-6 weeks without food. Again, you have made this choice as an adult with an illness that has no cure or treatment.

What should your partner do? Can s/he force you to eat? No. Does s/he have a responsibility to respect your wishes OR must s/he go to the police or court system and have you declared mentally incompetent and hospitalized and force fed? In that case, you are being made to do something you as an adult in a free world have chosen to not do.

If your partner resepected your wishes, should s/he be brought up on neglect charges? Or charged with Assisted Suicide if it is not legal in your state?
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:39 PM   #206
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Let's say you have a chronic illness. Your quality of life decreases each day and you have no chance of recovering. As an adult of sound mind, you wish to end your life as you believe this illness will affect your quality of life to the point that you don't believe living is worth it.

You decide to simply quit eating and let nature take its course. I think the human body will live for something like 4-6 weeks without food. Again, you have made this choice as an adult with an illness that has no cure or treatment.

What should your partner do? Can s/he force you to eat? No. Does s/he have a responsibility to respect your wishes OR must s/he go to the police or court system and have you declared mentally incompetent and hospitalized and force fed? In that case, you are being made to do something you as an adult in a free world have chosen to not do.

If your partner resepected your wishes, should s/he be brought up on neglect charges? Or charged with Assisted Suicide if it is not legal in your state?
This is a great question. I don't believe that you should be brought up on neglect charges, but you may be. Likewise you would probably be slapped with a civil suit by your mate's family.

In some sense though that's different from actively participating in someone's eventual demise. You aren't adding to the problem; you are a passive observer. I don't know if that's a meaningful distinction though.
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:01 PM   #207
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Default Well I brought it up for two reasons.

One it was an episode of "Law and Order" and the woman who wanted to starve to death had her grandaughter charged with assisted suicide. Something about depraved indifference to human life.

Also, I know a guy whose mother did just that. He tried to talk her out of it but she had cancer and didn't want to go through radiation and chemo and drugs and all that, she wanted to let nature take its course and she felt that she'd managed her own life and was competant to manage her own death.

As far as the passive thing goes, aren't there changing "good samaritan" laws? You see this in the news every now and then.

And starvation takes time. What if we worked together and I told you I was going to leave work and toss myself off a bridge? You as a civilian have (probably) no legal imperative, but if you were a teacher or doctor or social worker, you would. So for some people, if they knew a person was going to harm him or herself, they would be legally bound to try to prevent it.
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:13 PM   #208
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There are tons of things that are painful in life that we choose to do anyway... tattoos, piercings???
To clarify, It's about extremes.

Nothing wrong with having some tats and peircings. When you take it to extremes like the guy mentioned in this thread:

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/fo...ad.php?t=21432

It becomes something else. I would question his mental health and the person that did it too him.

Fantasys and feeder/feedee role play is one thing. Fattening someone to immobility is another.

Same with wanting to be thin. Nothing wrong with that. Wanting to be thin to the point of starving yourself to death is another.

S&M is also one thing. Beating the piss out of your partner is another.

Now that that's out of the way.

I stand by what I've been saying. Abuse is abuse and finding a partner that will endure abuse doesn't make it right.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:09 PM   #209
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Fair enough.



I think you're right there. For those whom immobility is a goal though, it raises some important questions:

Now that these people are disabled and cannot work to support themselves, are they entitled to government benefits?

When someone's behavior becomes harmful in the other extreme, like in anorexia nervosa, they are hospitalized.

Why is being so fat you can't walk more sane than starving to the point where you can't stand without fainting?

Should someone who wants their body altered to the point of self-harm be considered mentally ill?

If my boyfriend helps me starve to death, he gets in HUGE trouble. That's considered abuse. Again, why is it different if a guy feeds a woman who some would deem as mentally ill to the point where she is incapable of self-care?
You know TSL, I actually thought about this myself the past couple of days but wasn't sure how to broach it- thanks for bringing it up. Anorexics are considered a danger to themselves, to an extent, and usually get "mental health treatment" (I have a cousin who is anorexic- she had to see a psychiatrist for it is what I base this on- I saw a counselor myself for my own eating disorder) so why is it so different to consider a woman that is willing to eat herself to bad health and immobility to have some type of mental health problem? It really IS something I wondered..... I mean going by arguments I have seen in this thread, isn't it the right of the anorexic to never eat again? Why is there help out there for anorexics/other eating disorders if eating yourself to mobility is such a "normal" thing?


***I am asking this question as someone with an eating disorder, not to make anyone feel bad about themselves or lifestyle or choices.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:25 PM   #210
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I don't think eating yourself to immobility is a "normal" thing... so just wanted to get that said. It's clearly not the norm - even here, it's fringe, but it's something that some people here either play with or at the very least keep as part of their fantasy life.

I'm not saying this is the difference, but one to me seems to be that eating disorders of the "thinning" variety often have to do with overt control over life issues where the person has no other control and also with some level (for some) of body dismorphia, where some really don't see/believe that they are already desperately skinny.

With people who want to gain, they want to be super fat/fatter/maybe immobile, etc. They have a goal in mind and go for it for only that reason. They know they're fat, but they want to be fatter - not that they can't see they are fat. They like the fat on them, want more of it, etc.

Now, I'm not saying that each extreme isn't endangering life on levels, just that there seem to be very different motivations (sexual being a large one in those who wish to gain) in each extreme.



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You know TSL, I actually thought about this myself the past couple of days but wasn't sure how to broach it- thanks for bringing it up. Anorexics are considered a danger to themselves, to an extent, and usually get "mental health treatment" (I have a cousin who is anorexic- she had to see a psychiatrist for it is what I base this on- I saw a counselor myself for my own eating disorder) so why is it so different to consider a woman that is willing to eat herself to bad health and immobility to have some type of mental health problem? It really IS something I wondered..... I mean going by arguments I have seen in this thread, isn't it the right of the anorexic to never eat again? Why is there help out there for anorexics/other eating disorders if eating yourself to mobility is such a "normal" thing?


***I am asking this question as someone with an eating disorder, not to make anyone feel bad about themselves or lifestyle or choices.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:27 PM   #211
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Most certainly, if the person is found to be legally incompetent, the Dom or whomever could be charged with gross indifference at the very least. That said, it's rather difficult to prove that someone is mentally incompetent. You could get away with a hell of a lot of manipulation bordering on abuse and not be legally liable for it. The 'victim' has to be pretty demonstrably mentally ill or incapable of making informed decisions for it to be otherwise.

But whether or not it could get you sent to the clink, taking advangate of someone's fragile mental state for your own erotic gains is a monstrous thing to do. I wasn't sure if in the midst of all of my legal rantings I made it clear that of course I believe that.

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I drove through the worst traffic and skipped going to get diet soda to get back to you. I hope you're happy.

Seriously, if that went to jury, people flip out over eating disorders. People who encourage/get off on that behavior or behavior that resembles that do not have a chance. That said, it'd have to be at the extreme: Think low 80's or into 1000's; there you're right.

And let's just tell the truth, WW. Let's be real for ONE MINUTE: We all know you have one super skinny slave and one supersized one. Tell the truth for a minute, if you can.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:31 PM   #212
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In a situation where a person has asked someone to gain to immobility for them, and out of love for the asker the partner has agreed that is one thing. If a person meets someone and the person is deliberatley gaining and it is understood in advance that is something else entirely. A feedee is not sitting around witing for her dashing prince to come and feed her. This is something she is already into and the guy who is with her is fully aware and is either tolerant of it or just as into it as she is. But there is no one 'feeding' a feedee, one of the reasons I hate that word. The word "Gainer" would probably be more appropriate and "Fan of Weight Gain" as the opposite though the label is too long.

As for the first scenario I don't think there are scores of people locked in private rooms being fed against their will or coerced into being fed. We've all seen disturbing examples of this taking place but clearly this is not the norm. Every now and then you hear a story about a lone woman or man locked in their bedfoom for 'X' years and the fire department has to remove a wall to get them out of there for medical care or some such thing. Generally in these cases the person is single. Should family members, neighbors, the mailman, the gardner be held accountable or charged with abuse because they enabled the person to continue in their lifestyle? If the police are called and they see an immobile obese person in a bedroom seemingly safe and unharmed they cannot enact anything on their behalf if the person is seemingly cohearant and doesn't want help.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:37 PM   #213
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Exactly. I suppose if someone had rotten COE and decided just to "embrace it," they could accomplish immobility. So, other than shame, what separates extreme feederism from an eating disorder? I guess one's eating with intent, but it still vaguely says something about mental health, to me, to want to eat to immobility. I don't think it's anyone's "right" to give themselves hideous bedsore scars, beat their pancreas and other organs unmercifully with excess, lose their ability to walk, and isolate themselves so they have really no chance of turning it around. At least, not if you believe the government should ensure its citizens, at the very least, have a right to the pursuit of happiness. Kind of hard to pursue things when you're restrained to your bed without assistance.

I don't believe in a nanny state that says consenting adults can't have a feeder/feedee relationship, but if you're immobile, I think the state at least should step in and make sure both parties are willing AND prepared to deal with this.

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You know TSL, I actually thought about this myself the past couple of days but wasn't sure how to broach it- thanks for bringing it up. Anorexics are considered a danger to themselves, to an extent, and usually get "mental health treatment" (I have a cousin who is anorexic- she had to see a psychiatrist for it is what I base this on- I saw a counselor myself for my own eating disorder) so why is it so different to consider a woman that is willing to eat herself to bad health and immobility to have some type of mental health problem? It really IS something I wondered..... I mean going by arguments I have seen in this thread, isn't it the right of the anorexic to never eat again? Why is there help out there for anorexics/other eating disorders if eating yourself to mobility is such a "normal" thing?


***I am asking this question as someone with an eating disorder, not to make anyone feel bad about themselves or lifestyle or choices.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:46 PM   #214
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I don't think it's anyone's "right" to give themselves hideous bedsore scars, beat their pancreas and other organs unmercifully with excess, lose their ability to walk, and isolate themselves so they have really no chance of turning it around.
Preach it.

I would also agree that feeding yourself to immobility certainly could be/should be defined as an eating disorder. In away the other side of the coin of anorexia.

[edit]

I think there is a type disconnect with some in the FA community that would cringe at the idea of someone starving themselves to death but have no problem with someone eating themself to death.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:53 PM   #215
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There are many different kinds of eating disorders out there, including overeating. Having an eating disorder is not illegal in this country. I'm not sure how the law applies but can an adult with anorexia or any other form of an eating disorder be forced to seek treatment?
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:55 PM   #216
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And let's just tell the truth, WW. Let's be real for ONE MINUTE: We all know you have one super skinny slave and one supersized one. Tell the truth for a minute, if you can.
I asked you, nicely, to PLEASE not out me on the board. It's something I'm working on, OKAY? I just...CAN'T let them go.

In all seriousness, you're right about, well, everything. Yes it would have to be extremes, and in either extreme contributing to it by encouraging it is a deeply selfish and uncaring thing to do. And with either extreme immobility is the possible result.

AnneMarie I think that in many cases eating disorders on the low extreme begin with a desire to have control (oversimplification on my part, but take it as read that it's complicated and different for everyone), but it can also be wanting to get to a very specific point. Once you connect the weight issue with the emotional pain that's sent you there, you can grow to genuinely *like* the look of protruding bones and lanugo. People can tell themselves that it's not a mental issue, that they just really really really want to get down to 80 pounds. If you really really want to gain to immobility, the two aren't that far removed.

I am not not not saying that feedees are mentally ill. But at these fringe extremes, it is scary. I totally buy that someone can want to be larger and larger, but I can't imagine not wanting to move.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:56 PM   #217
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Damn, I thought about this and no answer. All I can say is I have no idea how the government would handle it with feederism especially.

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I think these are excellent questions, especially in terms of government services.

It's also a slippery slope... if I didn't force myself to get fat, but chose to lead my life as a fat person and someday was disabled as an effect of something related, am I also denied? I'm sure some would say yes... it's your fault.

I'm not arguing, to be clear, I just think it's an interesting train of thought, and could lead in a lot of very weird/scary directions for the "naturally" fat among us.

I suppose bottom line though, is that disabled is disabled, no matter how it happened... I don't think someone suffering from meth mouth and on the skids has any trouble getting assistance if they're playing the game and jumping through the bureaucratic hoops.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:57 PM   #218
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There are many different kinds of eating disorders out there, including overeating. Having an eating disorder is not illegal in this country. I'm not sure how the law applies but can an adult with anorexia or any other form of an eating disorder be forced to seek treatment?
Well it works in the same way that expressing suicidal desires can cause you to be locked up. It's that danger to self or others thing. So if you are at a point approaching death, I believe that the state can force you to undergo treatment. But I'm not 100% sure on that one.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:58 PM   #219
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AnneMarie's question about governmental assistance is a great one, and I didn't think of an answer either. Hell, that one could be its own thread.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:01 PM   #220
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There are many different kinds of eating disorders out there, including overeating. Having an eating disorder is not illegal in this country. I'm not sure how the law applies but can an adult with anorexia or any other form of an eating disorder be forced to seek treatment?
Yep. You can initially be held for 48 to 72 hours depending on the state. If they rule you're harmful to yourself, they can pretty well hold you as long as you like. (Mind you, your weight has to be VERY low in all cases I've heard of...) I really don't see why they couldn't or wouldn't do the same to someone weighing, say, 1,300 lbs.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:15 PM   #221
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So Bill and Joanne are in a consensual feeding relationship. Joanne's a gainer and Bill is quite pleased with the arrangement but suddenly something is not quite right. Bill is beginning to notice some things, some very unhealthy things and wonders if it is not now time to stop. Joanne on the otherhand thinks Bill is overreacting but Bill is truly getting a bit alarmed as it seems things are getting way out of hand. Bill fears doing anything because he loves Joanne and fears that if he intervenes Joanne will become angry and leave him.

This in general is THE most common scenario in a feeder type relationship. Even where there is a gainer and the partner is not really into feeding at all, if a person doesn't want to lose the trust of their beloved they may do nothing until something really bad happens. When the truth is finally revealed everyone thinks "bad bad Bill, that sicko sat there and let her get that way" but many times there is more to it than what appears on the surface.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:17 PM   #222
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So Bill and Joanne are in a consensual feeding relationship. Joanne's a gainer and Bill is quite pleased with the arrangement but suddenly something is not quite right. Bill is beginning to notice some things, some very unhealthy things and wonders if it is not now time to stop. Joanne on the otherhand thinks Bill is overreacting but Bill is truly getting a bit alarmed as it seems things are getting way out of hand. Bill fears doing anything because he loves Joanne and fears that if he intervenes Joanne will become angry and leave him.

This in general is THE most common scenario in a feeder type relationship. Even where there is a gainer and the partner is not really into feeding at all, if a person doesn't want to lose the trust of their beloved they may do nothing until something really bad happens. When the truth is finally revealed everyone thinks "bad bad Bill, that sicko sat there and let her get that way" but many times there is more to it than what appears on the surface.
Agreed, Lilly. With all this talk of what's abusive and what's not, we forget that much of it is personal responsibility for your own body.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:24 PM   #223
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Yep. You can initially be held for 48 to 72 hours depending on the state. If they rule you're harmful to yourself, they can pretty well hold you as long as you like. (Mind you, your weight has to be VERY low in all cases I've heard of...) I really don't see why they couldn't or wouldn't do the same to someone weighing, say, 1,300 lbs.
I would think that the situation for a gainer would be a bit more tricky. For a small person all you need do is plop them in your purse and off they go. For a big person you need a lot more. You need the right amount to subdue them if they are resisting, you need to get them out of the house, you needsuitable transport, a place to hold them, etc. If the person is harmed in any way you could be sued, etc. I'd be surprised if there were too many places prepared to deal with the eventuality of having to remove an 800 pound person from their home given the low incidence.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:26 PM   #224
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Agreed, Lilly. With all this talk of what's abusive and what's not, we forget that much of it is personal responsibility for your own body.
LMFAO..I preached that for 4 or 5 pages.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:29 PM   #225
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LMFAO..I preached that for 4 or 5 pages.
I know! I hope I didn't sound like "oh i'm the voice of reason in the insanity." I really was just reiterating what you were saying like 4 hours ago.
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