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Old 10-14-2007, 03:46 PM   #51
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Just want to say that I'm not here to fight, and the previous post will be my last in this thread. Thanks for your interest, though, Admiral.
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:16 PM   #52
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I wish that good porn DVDs were cheaper. My boyfriend and I picked up a cheaper bbw porn flick and all the chicks were, well... icky. Bad skin, etc. It was entertaining to watch in fast-forward mode though. XD

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Old 10-14-2007, 06:37 PM   #53
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It was entertaining to watch in fast-forward mode though. XD

~Aurora

LMFAO!!!!! Oh my god, for some reason seeing this after this heavy debate on the social rammifications of porn made me absolutely lose it! I haven't laughed so hard in quite some time.
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:43 PM   #54
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Being a very porn-positive person (and an active poster on Stripperweb), I don't want to get into the social ramifications talk too much, but.

I've been against it for most of my life, but to me being hot and smart AND strong is the ultimate goal. I can be overtly sexual and I can kick your ass. And to me, the more we de-mystify-- the more we remove the taboo surrounding sexuality, the stronger and healthier we become. All of us.

But in non-philosophical talk, how did I miss Dims after dark for 3 pages!?
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:57 PM   #55
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More what it does to people, Admiral. I won't go into it all, but if there is one thing I will discuss that is, IMO, harmful, it's what it does to peoples' minds.

First, you have the attempted brainwashing of boys and men. They are told what they should find attractive and what they should expect from women. Women should be thin and slutty, and should make these and those moves and those sounds. Women really mean "yes" when they say "no," and are willing to fuck just about anyone. Men shouldn't have to really try very hard to please their partner, and women can come from penetration alone. This, to me, is basically the take-home message of porn. Some guys are immune to these repeated messages, to one degree or another; some are not. And that's just mainstream porn.

When I was publishing my feminist mag, one of our readers wrote in about how the guys at her work had all kinds of porn on their computers, and how the women there were treated. She said she felt that because of a fixation on porn, the men devalued women and looked at them as only sex objects, and not as capable co-workers. She gave many examples to back up her claims. She ended up writing an article for us based upon the letter.

Women, however, are given the message that they must be thin to be attractive. Again, mainstream porn, but that message is flipped on its head regarding fat porn, of course. Women are shown that we should dress a certain way, move a certain way, sound a certain way, and love to drink semen as if it were a milkshake.

I think that porn often follows stereotypical 'thinking' and sends a message about what sex should be. It is such a lucrative industry that they really don't care what the message is, as long as money is being made. And that's not even going into the things that are done to women in order to make the porn (kidnapping, drugging, rape, other types of violence). I see an actual negative value in hardcore porn, personally.
I can agree with this- however, I find the most amusing part of it all is when the males that watch porn fail to realize that those women are paid a LOT of money to ooo and ahh. Oh, and not let us also forgot that male porn stars are usually "well-endowed" and "long lasting" to even get the job. With the exception of Ron Jeremy, most are good looking, too. When the women in those porn movies fill out tax returns, what do they put down as their occupation? Let me guess....Actress?

All of what I just mentioned fails to happen in reality for most of us. I'm not paid to pretend I enjoy it so why should I? Most men don't have a schlong the size of John Holmes. Let's get real.... especially if you hope to move away from masturbating to porn to having real sex.
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:02 PM   #56
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When the women in those porn movies fill out tax returns, what do they put down as their occupation? Let me guess....Actress?
Actually, they list themselves as adult entertainers, and the women I know who do porn know more about taxes and finance than any men I've met. It's really funny.

The men, to be fair, aren't usually that long lasting. A scene that runs for 20 minutes is usually shot over a period of 6 hours or so. It's not a one time shot, as it were.
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:04 PM   #57
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Actually, they list themselves as adult entertainers, and the women I know who do porn know more about taxes and finance than any men I've met. It's really funny.

The men, to be fair, aren't usually that long lasting. A scene that runs for 20 minutes is usually shot over a period of 6 hours or so. It's not a one time shot, as it were.
Thanks for ruining THAT fantasy for me....oh jeez
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:07 PM   #58
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Thanks for ruining THAT fantasy for me....oh jeez
Hahaha, I'm sorry. Once you talk to people who do porn it's amazing how many fantasies are ruined for you.

But they're still well-endowed!!!
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:09 PM   #59
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Let's not forget that 6.2...seconds...of kitty licking....must take a good 5 hours to get that in the can. I don't think we need more of the same. Obviously, that has not made our society more open and healthy, sexually. Now, I must get back to my original....thought...heh.
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:10 PM   #60
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Hahaha, I'm sorry. Once you talk to people who do porn it's amazing hoe many fantasies are ruined for you.

But they're still well-endowed!!!

At least something about porn is real
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:44 PM   #61
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I can agree with this- however, I find the most amusing part of it all is when the males that watch porn fail to realize that those women are paid a LOT of money to ooo and ahh. Oh, and not let us also forgot that male porn stars are usually "well-endowed" and "long lasting" to even get the job. With the exception of Ron Jeremy, most are good looking, too. When the women in those porn movies fill out tax returns, what do they put down as their occupation? Let me guess....Actress?
I didn't want to touch on that too much, but many people have very little idea how much the men are objectified in hetero porn compared to the women, especially in terms of the paycheck. I would argue against the 'good looking' part, because a) as a guy, it's hard for me to visualize a porn fantasy when the dude is uglier than I am and b) well-endowed has little to do with it. Watch the series with Seymore Butts on Showtime: He gave two shits as to how good looking the guy was, how hung he was, only that he could get hard and climax on cue. Seymore detested Viagra, so finding a man who could handle the requirements was like the old tale of the man scouring the earth for eternity looking for an honest person.

When you look back into the history of adult cinema, the names that come up over and over again are hardly heartthrobs nor are they Wonder Schlongs. Guys like Randy West, John Stagliano (Buttman), John Leslie, Herschel Savage...these guys were rough to look at, average in every sense of the word and sadly enough, two of them are still screwing in movies to this day. I cannot even RENT a movie with West or Savage in them; it'd be like watching my grandad screw some guy's college-aged daughter. Ron Jeremy is still in it because, well, he's fucking RON JEREMY. I always like to think there's some secret BHM Illuminati that decreed that Jeremy will be an actor in adult films in perpetuity until he dies, if for nothing else to give us hairy hedgehog-looking mo-fo's something to strive towards

There are good looking guys in adult movies, and when they couldn't get it up anymore without help or decided they were better off staying disease-free, they went behind the camera. Some of them played both sides. I know a lot of women who adored movies with heartthrob Italian star Rocco Siffredi; tall, handsome, hung like a 40 oz. beercan, accent, suave...everything. As long as someone else held the reins and let him be a sexy and somewhat normal stuntcock, women couldn't get enough of him. Then he went on to make his own series that he controlled, then it was all verbal abuse, spitting, smacking and angry shit...it's impossible to watch his stuff now because so much of it is just mean.

But I digress. I didn't intend to take up a pro vs. anti-porn stance on this thread; it's one of those topics that is so varied, so strong in the emotionality, that it's almost akin to a religion vs. atheism thread. One side will pull out Falwell and The Inquisition, the other side pulls out Stalin and Pol Pot and in the end no one can agree on anything else except the super dickery of the other side. Same with porn. Someone takes the "it's only entertainment stance," then someone goes into the "destroys lives and dignity" angle and we're left at a stalemate, or at the very least, an agreement to disagree.

I cannot speak to what Tina has experienced in her life or has seen in the lives of women who are truly abused in some way. It's always the backstory which is critical. A woman is abused continually by men in her life, sees all sex as somehow subjugating her because in her case it has, and by extension equates her experience to all hetero relationships and most of sexuality based on what she experienced. Porn and the general sexual freedoms of today's society provides easy targets (and in most cases they are), and thus they become easy generalizations for what is to blame. Nevermind the hordes of women and men who come into Hollywood day after day wanting to be the next Oscar-winning actor. Nevermind the tales of models who would rather fuck on film and get paid than deal with the ignominy of the casting couch and get nothing in return except a bad reputation.

For every woman that gets into porn because she was raped at a young age or got involved in sex too young and was brainwashed/convinced in some way that it was all she would ever be good for, there are ten other women who enjoy the attention and the easy money and the relative fame it brings and did it of their own free will and interest. Somewhere in between lies your varied experiences, good and bad. In a more common manner, for every couple that sees porn as a healthy addition to their fantasy life, there are many others who have lost friends, spouses and loved ones based on the addiction to and reliance on porn as a sexual outlet.

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Do you really think that porn is that 'innocent' in that way now? I am not just talking about Uni students and others who do it as a lark. I have heard all of the stories from the various women I've known, so I am looking at the whole of porn -- from the videos made of women who have been given rufies and raped on camera and uploaded to the net, to the women in Asia who have been kidnapped and forced into prostitution and/or porn videos and photos, to children that are raped and molested on camera. You cannot think these things do not go on... do you?
I said that porn has become mainstream much as the taboos of most sexuality have become mainstream. Hell, I see what teenage girls wear these days and it freaks me out, much less the rather frightening statistic that most of them will have had sex by the time they are 16. As for the examples you mentioned, I cannot vouch for their frequency. I know the rape statistics are frightening whether a significant number of rapes involve a publicly-displayed videotaping of the event or otherwise (I personally have never, in all my travels online, ever heard of some site that would openly indicate a woman was drugged and raped on film). I would also say that rape and the subjugation of women has gone on for millenia and all without the involvement of pornography: On that fact I can do nothing but agree with the Dworkins and MacKinnons of the world. The sex trade across the world is obvious. Most of that does not reach the average porno viewer, though, but like anything else those that want it will find a way to get it. The problem obviously goes much further and deeper than what most of us are exposed to.

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I'm not talking Big Cuties here; I'm talking the down and dirty crap that makes unscrupulous people rich, because they are willing to whore anyone out, willing to compromise society in some ways, for the almighty dollar.
Porno movie makers get rich off their products, that much is certain. Brothel owners in Nevada, pimps in the street, have a 90/10 cut of the profits if not more. Mainstream film actresses still get paid less than their male counterparts, and the inequalities of pay and respect still exist in the general employment arena. If the internet has demonstrated one thing, it's that an adult actress has a better chance (with the help of some business savvy and connections) of making an empire that she owns herself vs. sticking with a monolithic company like Vivid Video that takes the majority of the profits. Until that becomes more common, until the women can control the power of their own images to make their own names for themselves, you will always see a terribly unfair balance in how the adult business operates.

Please don't see this is as some sort of attack. I above anyone else appreciate a healthy debate on any issue.
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Old 10-15-2007, 01:33 AM   #62
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I wasn't going to post, but I enjoy your posts so much across the board that I had to, Admiral. I can definitely agree with some of what you say. I never meant to say that the things I listed are always the rule, but it has happened and does happen enough that I don't think the benefits outweigh the damage. Those reasons and more are why I dislike porn.

You're right when it comes to men in porn to the extent that the guys are just props, but since the bulk of porn is made for straight men why would they be anything more?

Your comment about how "well endowed has little to do with it." Ron White. Hear of him? In one of his routines he says (now, paraphrased, mind you):
Quote:
I think all men are at least a tiny bit gay. My friend disagreed with that strongly and it went something like this...

"nah, all men are not gay."

I said "Yes they are. When you see a guy getting it on with a woman, do you want him to have a small dick?"

"No way" he said. "I want 'em to have big... Oh."
The thing about porn and whatever aspects of the sex trade is that it seems those who are in it often end up detesting the opposite sex, like that Italian actor/director you mention. I have heard of this from many women in the business. They often see the worst side of men and over time end up turned off and end up turning to other women. I can imagine it might be the same for men.

Fact is that men are objectified in society, too, but until the power balance shifts, the objectification will continue to mostly benefit men, since it's mostly men who profit the most from porn, etc (no, not the 'stunt dick,' but the money men).

I'm not trying to get porn banned; I don't believe in that and feel people should be able to do as they like in that regard (as long as we're not talking violence or children). Heck, I also know of several women who enjoy porn, and particularly that made by women. I just feel that generally porn doesn't do much to help society at large, and often ends up breaking up marriages and other relationships. I know of several.

Thank you for the discussion, Admiral. And GEF, I'm sorry you have had the experiences you have. It sounds like you've gotten the short end of the sexual stick, so to speak.
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Old 10-15-2007, 01:53 AM   #63
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Admiral, you've insulted hedgehogs I think. Ron Jeremy makes my skin crawl.
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Old 10-15-2007, 03:46 AM   #64
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I have a lot of disparate thoughts about pornography (adding up to nothing very cohesive), most of which y'all have touched on! I think that porn is an ingrained human urge; with every new technology (printing presses, video cameras), the first thing humans do is take photos of their bum, so I think porn is fairly well inevitable in the presence of humans + any reproductive (hah) technology. However, I dont think that means it's...harmless, meaningless, just life. And do I think it's complicated; it's not all about causing behavior, it's not all about reflecting behavior, and it is a LOT about money. And I think (hello T) the line twixt porn and everything else is really freakin thin these days. That has changed enormously over the course of my life as a card-carrying Gen-X-er, and I would say our generation is one of the last to see it before and after. That has some bizarre dangers built into it.

I will say this: to paraphrase the great Candye Kane, big girl porn was a fairly effective tool for me on the road to size acceptance. For someone who just couldn't believe (at that point) that anybody wanted to shag fat girls, it ending up providing some very direct validation. I DO feel lucky that I discovered it as an adult, with the ability to (hopefully!) debunk/diffuse some of the concomitant nastiness, but basically, I have fine feelings about its existence.

I also have my own modest experience with the phenom: For a couple years I was art director (you can put that in quotes; there were just two of us) for a fat smut zine, a very pansexual, kink/lbgt-friendly one, and that also contributed to my feelings about porn, to wit: the furtherment of the idea that lust is lust, most everyone wants to see what they lust after in print, and it is actually possible to represent sexuality in interestin hot ways that aren't completely gnarly (dead-eyed, misyogynist, fundamentally depressing, whatever). We were free to create the world we wanted to see/read, and we did, and there were others reading it. So...more (size) positiveness.

But my feelings, which I would say have the luxury of existing after some necessary rebellion about it all, still aren't b&w...I'm all over the place with them (including about Hef). I do try to support independently-owned woman-positive sex shops/buy their wares/support women-produced porn, something I don't think I woulda thought was possible in my mid-80s college years when porn was so very Bad.

This wasn't yer original question, was it, AS. We should be discussing...the maligning of the common, innocent Hedgehog in these RJeremy-conversant modern times. They are so cute.

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Old 10-15-2007, 07:49 AM   #65
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Your comment about how "well endowed has little to do with it." Ron White. Hear of him? In one of his routines he says (now, paraphrased, mind you)
Oh I know the Ron White quote. I wasn't speaking so much to their endowments (although to be honest, even as a guy seeing Rodney Moore naked makes me rather queasy) but rather their general attractiveness. Randy West will make someone a nice set of luggage some day.

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The thing about porn and whatever aspects of the sex trade is that it seems those who are in it often end up detesting the opposite sex, like that Italian actor/director you mention. I have heard of this from many women in the business. They often see the worst side of men and over time end up turned off and end up turning to other women. I can imagine it might be the same for men.
As a public service, I would like (as a guy) to list some actors who I feel are representing the worst that the male gender has to offer these days in terms of objectification or outright humiliation of the women in their films. This is by no means complete:

Max Hardcore (by far the WORST of the bunch; most of his stuff should be outright banned due to how close it is to rape. Oddly enough, his shit sells like hotcakes)
T.T. Boy (I see asshole fratboy written all over this dude)
Rocco Siffredi (most of the stuff he made in the 90s with Buttman were acceptable)
Herschel Savage (not so much a total jerk but his age difference compared to his female stars is rather unsettling)
Nacho Vidal (this guy does all sorts of tranny porn now, so hard to say where he got his hatred from; nevertheless he's an ass)
Eric Everhard
Brandon Irons
Shane Diesel or Boz: These guys are the racist pornographers, the guys who are scary big in the nether regions and play up the whole "your daddy would disown you for screwing a n-word, smile for daddy" stuff.

Thanks for your understanding and patience with my massive posts of late. This isn't something you can summarize quickly.
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Old 10-15-2007, 09:44 AM   #66
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I didn't want to touch on that too much, but many people have very little idea how much the men are objectified in hetero porn compared to the women, especially in terms of the paycheck. I would argue against the 'good looking' part, because a) as a guy, it's hard for me to visualize a porn fantasy when the dude is uglier than I am and b) well-endowed has little to do with it. Watch the series with Seymore Butts on Showtime: He gave two shits as to how good looking the guy was, how hung he was, only that he could get hard and climax on cue. Seymore detested Viagra, so finding a man who could handle the requirements was like the old tale of the man scouring the earth for eternity looking for an honest person.

When you look back into the history of adult cinema, the names that come up over and over again are hardly heartthrobs nor are they Wonder Schlongs. Guys like Randy West, John Stagliano (Buttman), John Leslie, Herschel Savage...these guys were rough to look at, average in every sense of the word and sadly enough, two of them are still screwing in movies to this day. I cannot even RENT a movie with West or Savage in them; it'd be like watching my grandad screw some guy's college-aged daughter. Ron Jeremy is still in it because, well, he's fucking RON JEREMY. I always like to think there's some secret BHM Illuminati that decreed that Jeremy will be an actor in adult films in perpetuity until he dies, if for nothing else to give us hairy hedgehog-looking mo-fo's something to strive towards

I suppose the long and short of this is that since they don't put good looking men all the time with nice looking penises, then it must be safe to assume that the porn was made for men. Another reason for women not to like it if it's all "male oriented", imo.
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:00 AM   #67
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I've been reading this thread, and now, I'm lost. Porn is bad, we know that, it's like sugar to the brain. What about erotica? Is that bad, too? Does it degrade women and men? And what about romance novels? Now those are bad for men: how can we EVER live up to those fantasies?
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:00 AM   #68
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I suppose the long and short of this is that since they don't put good looking men all the time with nice looking penises, then it must be safe to assume that the porn was made for men. Another reason for women not to like it if it's all "male oriented", imo.
A guy can appreciate a good-looking guy screwing an equally good-looking woman. We can't all be tripods. A certain amount of the fantasy is peppered with reality, hence the troglodytes who can maintain hardness to do the deed that make the rest of us look gorgeous by comparison. Hard to draw a line across it all.

Most porn is assuredly male-oriented. Most of the acts are designed to titillate men, not women. The nature of the beast so to speak. When I watched 'couples porn' with the wife, I tended to just enjoy the scene whereas the lady made sure to critique the guy, his overall appearance, the implants of the woman (or some other similar cosmetic appearance) or her choice in shoes. The women in my past who have done this also gave me the inside scoop on how to spot C-section scars and other details best left unsaid.

To me the mark of a good couples adult film is when the couple watching are too caught up in it to say ANYTHING, and just commence to touching
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:09 AM   #69
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I've been reading this thread, and now, I'm lost. Porn is bad, we know that, it's like sugar to the brain. What about erotica? Is that bad, too? Does it degrade women and men? And what about romance novels? Now those are bad for men: how can we EVER live up to those fantasies?

Now, I am confused! Isn't erotica, the same as porn just with a lot of attention to the romance?
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Old 10-19-2007, 03:38 PM   #70
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No problem, Admiral. I admit I'm happy to say that I have no idea who any of those guys are...

When it comes to porn, though, I have to say that I have bought a handful of Playgirl magazines in my day, though not for quite a while...
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Old 10-19-2007, 10:57 PM   #71
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I don't think porn is bad. But it depends on your definition of the word. I like porn. I draw porn. Porn = happy 'Rora. As long as no one gets hurt (unless... it's like, bdsm stuff and it's supposed to be that way lol) I don't see why it's a big deal. Yeah, there are some asshats who do stupid stuff and degrade and obsess over money and etc. etc. but you find that everywhere.
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Old 10-20-2007, 05:01 AM   #72
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I checked out Herschel Savage Admiral only because you've mentioned his age more than once re: the age of his 'co-stars'. The guy's 52 years old. BFD. Have you checked the age of a lot of Hollywood's leading men? I don't even watch movies and right off the top of my head all of the following are older than Savage. Harrison Ford (65), Robert De Niro (64), Jack Nicholson (70, who personally makes me retch and has for years), Warren Beatty (70), Robert Redford (71), Clint Eastwood (77), Sean Connery (77), Al Pacino (67), the list goes on. All have played male romantic leads within the last few years and rarely are their female counterparts over 30. So why the Jones about a 52 year old male porn star?
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Old 10-20-2007, 11:32 AM   #73
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I checked out Herschel Savage Admiral only because you've mentioned his age more than once re: the age of his 'co-stars'. The guy's 52 years old. BFD. Have you checked the age of a lot of Hollywood's leading men? I don't even watch movies and right off the top of my head all of the following are older than Savage. Harrison Ford (65), Robert De Niro (64), Jack Nicholson (70, who personally makes me retch and has for years), Warren Beatty (70), Robert Redford (71), Clint Eastwood (77), Sean Connery (77), Al Pacino (67), the list goes on. All have played male romantic leads within the last few years and rarely are their female counterparts over 30. So why the Jones about a 52 year old male porn star?
For one thing, more often than not Savage plays the 'dirty old man' banging the 'implied' high school/college aged nymphettes. Plus, in many ways I think the men have this unspoken 'initiation ritual' where they pair the young new talent right off the bus with the nasty older guys (Jeremy, Savage, etc.). It's one thing to see the implication that Pacino is banging a 20-year-old college student, another thing to see some guy ACTUALLY doing it.

For some reason Herschel Savage is the only one that really bothers me, I don't know why. I don't care if he's paired up with the star that I think is hotter than hell, I cannot stand to watch him in any movies.
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Old 10-20-2007, 12:24 PM   #74
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I agree with Friday. It is one thing to see ( and none for me..thanks ) a movie where some much older man is actually going at some much younger woman in a porn...and a movie where the women is not portrayed as some drunk..or ' naughty nympho '..etc..but is a woman who of COURSE wants a man old enough to be her very much over the average age, father. I think it is much more sleazy and obnoxious to continue seeing these pairings in mainstream movies. It is not about this working for some real life people...it is about Hollywood continuing to see women mostly in terms of youthful ' attractiveness ' and paired with much older men, until the women reach ' a certain age ' or botox and diet themselves to hope for one more year..one more movie..where they can have Clint Eastwood climb into the saddle...urp.

One scenario is just gross..the other is more insidious and keeps the idea of women in Hollywood as dynamic and desireable after age 40..50..60 ( whatever the age of the oldest actor is who gets to snuggle with much younger women and don't trot out the tired examples of a few who fight to stay looking young..that's BS )....squashed.
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Old 10-20-2007, 07:47 PM   #75
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I agree with Friday. It is one thing to see ( and none for me..thanks ) a movie where some much older man is actually going at some much younger woman in a porn...and a movie where the women is not portrayed as some drunk..or ' naughty nympho '..etc..but is a woman who of COURSE wants a man old enough to be her very much over the average age, father.
I forgot to mention that the older-woman/younger man (or woman) "MILF" type films are definitely in vogue now. So, you've seen some of the older adult film stars (Nina Hartley for example) coming back to front and center stage to screw guys young enough to be their kids.

I do agree with you that the mainstream is more accepting of the older man/younger woman dynamic than the opposite, but the question is how you reverse that phenomenon. Old, wealthy men still run all the studios. Older, wealthy, experienced male actors still rule the roost (plus when have you seen Jack Nicholson date ANYTHING that wasn't half his age?). I for one would love to see Ann Margaret or Sophia Loren or Raquel Welch in a lead as a powerful, sexy leading lady. Helen Mirren is still very hot to me. It's just a matter of someone making the watershed movie that puts the age/experience > youth/stamina dynamic to the test.
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