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Old 02-04-2008, 02:58 AM   #1
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Default A Matter Of Confidence

i was thinking. one of the main things a lot of FAs mention that they are attracted to in a woman is confidence. i wonder how some of the FAs here feel conditional acceptance on their part figures in a woman's self confidence? i sometmes wonder if this self confidence thats often spoken of here is just a euphemism for a woman willing to show her body and let it be used as a toy? is it self confident when a woman says that its okay to throw the rest of her away if and when her body does not meet a requirement? a woman with real self confidence would probaby not ever accept some of the kinds of relationships i've seen described here, or have seen out and about in the community for that matter. so i've always wondered how some of the FAs have been able to reconcile things in their own mind.
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Old 02-04-2008, 03:51 AM   #2
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Self confidence, like almost everything, is relative.

When I say I want a self confident woman, that doesn't mean I need a paysite girl. I want her to believe me when I tell her she's beautiful. But that's only one part of the equation. To me, self confidence is someone who knows entirely who they are, and are proud of it. Someone that is strong and who rates their own opinion above anyone else's, including mine.

Also, I don't think there's a need to bash the "relationships going on here." If you are too high and mighty to possibly have anything to do with what has become "the dark side of dimensions", that's fine. But don't take shots at consenting adults engaging doing whatever the hell they want. That's somewhat childish. If you've somehow have developed the idea that all the girls here are just "playing along" with some twisted male sex game, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Of course I can't defend the female point on this so I'll wait for someone like AnnMarie to drop the ultimate post.
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Old 02-04-2008, 04:28 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by mfdoom View Post
Self confidence, like almost everything, is relative.

Also, I don't think there's a need to bash the "relationships going on here." If you are too high and mighty to possibly have anything to do with what has become "the dark side of dimensions", that's fine. But don't take shots at consenting adults engaging doing whatever the hell they want. That's somewhat childish. If you've somehow have developed the idea that all the girls here are just "playing along" with some twisted male sex game, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Of course I can't defend the female point on this so I'll wait for someone like AnnMarie to drop the ultimate post.
i think self confidence is NOT relative. you have it or you don't. that would be like being relatively pregnant. maybe the problem is that we've tried to MAKE self confidence relative. relative to the esteem of others how much others think we should have rather than how much we need.

i'm not bashing. here is what i said. and please note that i use the word SOME as a qualifier. also you misquoted me when you wrote "relationships going on here":

"a woman with real self confidence would probably not ever accept SOME of the KINDS OF RELATIONSHIPS I"V SEEN DESCRIBED HERE, or have seen out and about in the community for that matter. so i've always wondered how some of the FAs have been able to reconcile things in their own mind. "

please don't change the spirit of my question. it contains a valid argument. don't discount it because perhaps you don't really want to think about it or answer it yourself. it is a hard question for people to ask themselves. i've had many FAs tell me so. this is an honest exploration and i have always wondered. there was no hostility in my question that you tried to impart to it.

i'm sure every woman here both online and out and about in the community know about some screwed up couples situations they've seen. they're even honest enough to say that they've even participated in some before they grew into themselves as women. i'm not going to keep pretending that all of things i've seen in the bbw community or the acceptance community are perfect. its full of people and people are imperfect. i think there has been too much white washing for too long anyway--way too much tiptoeing around fragile egos.

you are also making ASSUMPTIONS about the type of relationships i'm talking about anyway. when i say relationships i'm not talking about how people organize their sexuality. so often when relationships are discussed here it degenerates into a who is f--king who, how they are f---ing them, how many at a time and how big is the person gettng f--ked and is it ok. a relationship is so much more than sexuality alone. i'm only talking about emotional relationships where women are NOT getting what they need. i hate to tell you but women get a lot of self confidence from things outside of the bedroom.

i really don't care what people do as consenting adults but i also don't like the idea that some women might feel compelled to do things that don't make them personally happy as a part of a relationship. even if i didn't engage in certain aspects of what has been characterized by YOU as "the dark side of dimensions" it doesn't mean that i judge them in any aspect except in regards to how i would feel if i were personally asked to particiate. and yes i do have an opinion about whether i think it would work for me or not. as a confident woman i allow myself to have and do have very strong opinions about what i want and need. but my opinions end where the rights of other people begin. and i will ask questions and state my opinions about what i see going on because i think its important to think about it and to learn. if i'm too high and mighty aka confident as a woman to think my happiness and the happiness of other women is important then so be it!



people are always telling us that we are asking too much. its usually the people who want to give us too little.

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Old 02-04-2008, 05:42 AM   #4
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Hi Super

I can't rep you until I rep someone else

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[QUOTE=superodalisque;688360]i think self confidence is NOT relative............snip
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Old 02-04-2008, 06:25 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
i think self confidence is NOT relative. you have it or you don't. that would be like being relatively pregnant. maybe the problem is that we've tried to MAKE self confidence relative. relative to the esteem of others how much others think we should have rather than how much we need.

i'm not bashing. here is what i said. and please note that i use the word SOME as a qualifier. also you misquoted me when you wrote "relationships going on here":

"a woman with real self confidence would probably not ever accept SOME of the KINDS OF RELATIONSHIPS I"V SEEN DESCRIBED HERE, or have seen out and about in the community for that matter. so i've always wondered how some of the FAs have been able to reconcile things in their own mind. "

please don't change the spirit of my question. it contains a valid argument. don't discount it because perhaps you don't really want to think about it or answer it yourself. it is a hard question for people to ask themselves. i've had many FAs tell me so. this is an honest exploration and i have always wondered. there was no hostility in my question that you tried to impart to it.

i'm sure every woman here both online and out and about in the community know about some screwed up couples situations they've seen. they're even honest enough to say that they've even participated in some before they grew into themselves as women. i'm not going to keep pretending that all of things i've seen in the bbw community or the acceptance community are perfect. its full of people and people are imperfect. i think there has been too much white washing for too long anyway--way too much tiptoeing around fragile egos.

you are also making ASSUMPTIONS about the type of relationships i'm talking about anyway. when i say relationships i'm not talking about how people organize their sexuality. so often when relationships are discussed here it degenerates into a who is f--king who, how they are f---ing them, how many at a time and how big is the person gettng f--ked and is it ok. a relationship is so much more than sexuality alone. i'm only talking about emotional relationships where women are NOT getting what they need. i hate to tell you but women get a lot of self confidence from things outside of the bedroom.

i really don't care what people do as consenting adults but i also don't like the idea that some women might feel compelled to do things that don't make them personally happy as a part of a relationship. even if i didn't engage in certain aspects of what has been characterized by YOU as "the dark side of dimensions" it doesn't mean that i judge them in any aspect except in regards to how i would feel if i were personally asked to particiate. and yes i do have an opinion about whether i think it would work for me or not. as a confident woman i allow myself to have and do have very strong opinions about what i want and need. but my opinions end where the rights of other people begin. and i will ask questions and state my opinions about what i see going on because i think its important to think about it and to learn. if i'm too high and mighty aka confident as a woman to think my happiness and the happiness of other women is important then so be it!



people are always telling us that we are asking too much. its usually the people who want to give us too little.


I'm relatively turned on when you pwn someone, Felecia Love you! P.S. that last sentence you wrote really hits the nail on the head.

And, William, you can rep me in the interim rofl
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Old 02-04-2008, 06:38 AM   #6
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You bring up an excellent question, Felicia.

When Carla and I met in 2001, she was just beginning to develop her own website with one of the other girls. I was immediately attracted to how confident she was as a person. She would get e-mails & messages all the time telling her how hot she is, shat they would do to her if they had her, etc.

Early on, we talked about dating, and I told her that I didn't have the patience to deal with the garbage that paysite girls hear from all of these trolls, who knew nothing about her other than the size of her ass. What I learned over the next few months was that her confidence had NOTHING to do with what she heard from other guys. In fact it had begun to annoy her more than me. The fact that this beautiful, confident woman wanted ME, even though she had so many other choices made me want her even more.

By November of 2001, whe had already decided to give up modeling. I wanted to spend more time with her, and gave my radio show & website to one of my friends (who killed both in less than 6 months). Some of you who know me know the things I'm confident about, one of them is my ability to speak in front of crowds, or on radio & tv. I think the fact that I gave up that small degree of noteriety in the wrestling business was a big thing for Carla as well. She knew it was important to me, and it certainly appeared to be a huge sacrifice.

Over the past 6 years, Carl and I have gone back to our respective "second careers": her to modeling again, and me back to running a wrestling school & promotion. The one constant, however, besides our love, is that I have always found her confidence to be as sexy as her body. One of the highlights of our relationship, was a night about a year and a half ago at a BBW mini bash. We were supposed to have a pool party at the hotel, but there were several people not from our group still in the pool. No one wanted to get in while they were still swimming........that is, except Carla. She proceeded to get down to her bikini, get in the pool, and strike up a conversation with the family. Eventually everyone else jumped in as well.

It's that confidence that makes her so attractive to me, almost 6 years later.

I think there's a difference, however, between that type of confidence, and the one expressed by trolls who love that confidence until they have sex, then try to relegate said confident girl to the hotel room while hey hang with their non-FA buddies, who wouldn't understand, and would give the troll heat for being with a "fattie". So, the troll's idea of confidence in a BBW is more from that willingness to share her body so freely, which may have little or nothing to do with confidence at all.

I hope I'm not stirring the pot with this post. That is just how I see what goes on.
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Old 02-04-2008, 06:50 AM   #7
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Think about it this way...

FAs deal with an abundance of women who continually remind us that our preference is either wrong, gross, weird, deranged, odd, kinky, or whatever else you'd like to put in there to describe our likes as being far from normal.

Most women (not all...but the vast majority), whatever their size, are NOT confident about their body, nor are they confident in their size, shape, and so forth. Thus, FAs are able to justify their desire for someone confident in their looks, and perhaps confident in little else, simply because those women are willing to accept the idea that a guy likes their fatness, their curves, their flab, their figure.

Never assume that the bbws, or bhm in general are the ones who are under fire, or damaged goods. the FAs and FFAs out there are likely to be just as injured, hurt, damaged, and crushed down by societies standards as someone who is fat...and simple because they happen to LIKE something unusual, or deviating from the norm.

Psychologically, it is a lot harder to accept a mental attribute than a physical one, because the mental attribute is likely developed through certain events in one's life. Where as being fat is physical, and if you are naturally a bigger person, then it is harder to be confident in multiple aspects of your life, if you're not confident in the way you look.

Therefore, I submit that in these relationships, the bbw AND the FA both settle. The FA because they finally found an accepting partner, who is okay with their preference, despite any deficiencies....and the bbw because they found someone who enjoys their confidence in their body, and isn't trying to knock it down.

This, of course, is flawed...because there are always creeps, assholes, and freaks out there who like using and abusing people (this goes for both sides of the bbw/fa coin...or bhm/ffa coin). But for most...I think it is from a simple lack of belief in there being more possible.

That's my thoughts on it anyway.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:00 AM   #8
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Default self-confidence

When I say I'm attracted to a woman's self-confidence that's exactly what I mean. Most women realize they are more than just their aesthetic appearance. Far fewer seem to appreciate how much physical beauty exists in the context of attitude*. As an analogy, attitude is much more than the lighting and frame of a painting. It is the comprehensive space in which the painting exists. Self-confidence then is the willingness to freely and openly share that entire space and allow the physical countenance to assume its' proper portion and position. A self-confident woman is one who will trust men to see and notice her as something far beyond what shows in the mirror. Much more I could say about this and better but duty calls. Great question though.

*I'd prefer the term "spirit" rather than attitude but then run the risk of suggesting some willowy, new-age meta-concept. "Spirit" as I would intend is strong, palpable and unambiguous.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:57 AM   #9
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Self confidence = self respect in my mind. I think many confuse bravado for self confidence.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:22 AM   #10
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There's also a similar question going in the opposite direction. I have, for a long time now, wondered about the slippage I see between women who have self confidence, find themselves attractive (save for a bad day now and then), believe others can find them attractive, and all the stories I hear from men who talk about self-hating fat women.

Don't get me wrong: I'm very sure there are self-hating fat women, and a good number of them, at that.

But I ALSO know that when I bring up certain topics among FAs, I'm almost always immediately told that I don't like myself, I don't have good self esteem, I'm trying to follow the masses not my own wants or desires, I don't feel attractive.

I'm starting to see that perhaps what some FAs see as lack of good self-esteem is, in fact, related to what the FA thinks we should be thinking. I've always said that being that objectifying something and being the OBJECT of that objectification are 2 very different things.

Is it that a woman says: oh god, I'm hideous and should wear a bag over my entire body, go away and leave me alone!
(yes, I know this does happen for some people at some times)

or, is it that I say: Well, yeah, I think I can be cute, definitely, but I don't think it's because of my fat stomach. Or: I'm not really ...turned ON by my fat. I don't feel lust for myself, though I do like that I'm soft, or whatever. You know, the sort of thing I think most women feel about themselves. We can't divorce our bodies from our fat, like the stuff Oprah pulled around on stage after herself. We're all of it, and I don't think most self-accepting fat women would relate to their bodies much differently that self-accepting thin women, in conceptual terms, in linguistic terms.

But I often hear from the FAs I encounter here that if I'm not saying OOOh, my fat thighs are hot! oooh, I love my fat rolls! oooh, I'm better because I have a bigger ass than you do! that I don't love myself. That I'm not accepting of my fat. That I'm not proud of myself.

I don't know how to be proud of myself as a fat woman. I only know how to be proud of myself as a woman. I only know how to be proud of myself.

If an FA expects us to be proud of ourselves (or turned on by ourselves) as fat women (in other words, to objectify ourselves in the way they do--and I say that w/o an agenda, we all objectify others to an extent, especially when we're turned on by someone) In The Exact Same Ways They Do, for our fatness, or whatever, then it's no wonder so many FAs talk about being involved with women who don't have self esteem.

Maybe we're just basing self esteem on a very different set of criteria.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:27 AM   #11
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With all women its all about confidence with me. And that has absolutely nothing to do with their body in anyway at all. People who are confident are willing to take a lot more risks, have a lot more fun and are just willing to live life so much more because they are willing to go out and not give a damn what people are gonna say about them. And that's just in friends. When it comes to romantic stuff, its equally if not more important. If someoneis constantly saying stuff like "You are way to hot for me" or "to nice" or "to good" and not in the loving way or in the joking way, then I dont think I'm alone in this in saying I really dont want to have anything to do woth them because all their doing is beating themselves up constantly. It really doesnt have anything to do with the body, confidence is confidence, and its important, at least for me to have any kind of relationship with someone.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:29 AM   #12
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i think self confidence is NOT relative. you have it or you don't.
I agree. But I also believe that sometimes you don't have it until you do, if that makes sense. I think that society and family can take away that confidence, but I also believe that we can instill it within ourselves if we work at it and are open to having it enough that we have the receptivity to embrace it.

For me, it was a conscious journey and not something that I just all of a sudden got one day. I don't know about paysites, but being in the print mag was a part of the journey for me. Just a part of it, but it was also conquering a fear (of having my photo taken), and conquering fears is also empowering, which can help one's confidence -- above and beyond the compliments one receives.

Do I have my days where I don't feel so great about myself? Yeah. I think most people do, to one degree or another, but I do feel confidence as a woman, and as a fat woman. The second feels more like confidence in the face of scorn or seeming negative judgement.

It's kind of like when AM and I were talking about kind of digging it when we have a wiggle in our walk and we feel like we're hot no matter, and even because of, our size, and knowing that there are some guys out there diggin' it, and others who might be horrified. It's the kind of confidence that can smilingly accept the first, and also smile in the face of the latter.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:44 AM   #13
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I just like to hang with people who don't take shit from anybody (including me) whether they happen to be men or women. This is also what I like about cats and rabbits, so it even transcends species.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:47 AM   #14
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It's kind of like when AM and I were talking about kind of digging it when we have a wiggle in our walk and we feel like we're hot no matter, and even because of, our size, and knowing that there are some guys out there diggin' it, and others who might be horrified. It's the kind of confidence that can smilingly accept the first, and also smile in the face of the latter.
BINGO!!!
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:52 AM   #15
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I agree. But I also believe that sometimes you don't have it until you do, if that makes sense. I think that society and family can take away that confidence, but I also believe that we can instill it within ourselves if we work at it and are open to having it enough that we have the receptivity to embrace it.

For me, it was a conscious journey and not something that I just all of a sudden got one day. I don't know about paysites, but being in the print mag was a part of the journey for me. Just a part of it, but it was also conquering a fear (of having my photo taken), and conquering fears is also empowering, which can help one's confidence -- above and beyond the compliments one receives.

Do I have my days where I don't feel so great about myself? Yeah. I think most people do, to one degree or another, but I do feel confidence as a woman, and as a fat woman. The second feels more like confidence in the face of scorn or seeming negative judgement.

It's kind of like when AM and I were talking about kind of digging it when we have a wiggle in our walk and we feel like we're hot no matter, and even because of, our size, and knowing that there are some guys out there diggin' it, and others who might be horrified. It's the kind of confidence that can smilingly accept the first, and also smile in the face of the latter.
Just to put my own thoughts into this point...I think a lot of times false confidence, or the front of confidence, is better then no confidence at all. I think it is amazing what a show of confidence can do for someone who doesn't have it, and how, if utilized enough, false confidence can transform into confidence.

Anything can take away confidence...but being able to put up a wall/front of being confident, and self-assured, even when your not, facing your fears, and acting like you aren't shaken, helps more than anyone could imagine, at least that's my own experience with confidence.

And families, friends, relatives, and society may take away confidence...but it would be one-sided to say that sometimes family and friends give you more confidence. It really depends on who they are, and how confident they are.

For instance, my girlfriend is not at all confident in her body, yet I find her body lovely. Thus far we've agreed to disagree...but the problems she's having stem from the fact that her mother continually told her that she wasn't thin enough for something she adored in her youth (and still does, though it took a while for her to admit it to me), which is ballet. She loves dancing. Yet, because of her mother's own perception and judgement of ballet, and her daughter...she's had a hard time not only accepting the ideas coming from me that she can dance, and has a dancer's figure (good god are her legs huge...dancers legs indeed!), but she also worries about her weight, and her self-image suffers. Yet, many of her friends, and even some of her family think she's too thin. Her mother even recently asked if I'd hurt myself when I picked my girlfriend up, and carried her from the couch into the bedroom, insinuating that her daughter is way too heavy to be picked up by a guy my size.

That's, in my mind, a typical example...yet there are also examples of families and friends who are supportive. My friend is 300+ pounds, and though he isn't necessarily happy with his weight for his own reasons, his family, his wife, and his friends have never given him any serious flack for his weight. In fact if he lost weight, or his appetite, I think everyone around him would be shocked and dismayed. He is the quinisential (sp?) teddy bear.

A co-worker of mine, Nicole, is nearly 400 pounds, and 5'2" or 5'3" and she is one of the most confident people I've met, and her boyfriend, her family, and her friends have never (in my year or two working with her off and on) made reference to her size except to say she is cuddly...and I think that was more of a reference to her personality.

So, my points being...
-False confidence is better then no confidence.

-False confidence can sometimes build into confidence and belief in one's self

-Family and friends can be counter-productive to building confidence...but they can also be the keys to making it stronger.

-Confrontation is not the key, and self-acceptance is the first acceptance to work towards

-Your family should be willing to hear you out and accept you...and if they aren't, they aren't worth your time.

-Your friends should ALSO hear you out, and accept you for you...if they don't...then why are they your friends?

-Facing your fears is incredibly important. Never let your fears drive you away from making your life what you want it to be.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:57 AM   #16
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You bring up an excellent question, Felicia.

When Carla and I met in 2001, she was just beginning to develop her own website with one of the other girls. I was immediately attracted to how confident she was as a person. She would get e-mails & messages all the time telling her how hot she is, shat they would do to her if they had her, etc.

Early on, we talked about dating, and I told her that I didn't have the patience to deal with the garbage that paysite girls hear from all of these trolls, who knew nothing about her other than the size of her ass. What I learned over the next few months was that her confidence had NOTHING to do with what she heard from other guys. In fact it had begun to annoy her more than me. The fact that this beautiful, confident woman wanted ME, even though she had so many other choices made me want her even more.

By November of 2001, whe had already decided to give up modeling. I wanted to spend more time with her, and gave my radio show & website to one of my friends (who killed both in less than 6 months). Some of you who know me know the things I'm confident about, one of them is my ability to speak in front of crowds, or on radio & tv. I think the fact that I gave up that small degree of noteriety in the wrestling business was a big thing for Carla as well. She knew it was important to me, and it certainly appeared to be a huge sacrifice.

Over the past 6 years, Carl and I have gone back to our respective "second careers": her to modeling again, and me back to running a wrestling school & promotion. The one constant, however, besides our love, is that I have always found her confidence to be as sexy as her body. One of the highlights of our relationship, was a night about a year and a half ago at a BBW mini bash. We were supposed to have a pool party at the hotel, but there were several people not from our group still in the pool. No one wanted to get in while they were still swimming........that is, except Carla. She proceeded to get down to her bikini, get in the pool, and strike up a conversation with the family. Eventually everyone else jumped in as well.

It's that confidence that makes her so attractive to me, almost 6 years later.

I think there's a difference, however, between that type of confidence, and the one expressed by trolls who love that confidence until they have sex, then try to relegate said confident girl to the hotel room while hey hang with their non-FA buddies, who wouldn't understand, and would give the troll heat for being with a "fattie". So, the troll's idea of confidence in a BBW is more from that willingness to share her body so freely, which may have little or nothing to do with confidence at all.

I hope I'm not stirring the pot with this post. That is just how I see what goes on.

i tried to think of an eloquent response to the things you've said but the only thing apropriate is here! here!
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:04 AM   #17
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Think about it this way...

FAs deal with an abundance of women who continually remind us that our preference is either wrong, gross, weird, deranged, odd, kinky, or whatever else you'd like to put in there to describe our likes as being far from normal.

.
yes, thats a shame. i can definitely understand that. it sounds like FAs need a good old shot in the confidence too. what do you think would help? do you think thats being addressed a all in the acceptance movement? maybe you guys need to hold a protest or a sit in at the next NAAFA or something about being made to feel that way.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:16 AM   #18
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...But I ALSO know that when I bring up certain topics among FAs, I'm almost always immediately told that I don't like myself, I don't have good self esteem, I'm trying to follow the masses not my own wants or desires, I don't feel attractive.

I'm starting to see that perhaps what some FAs see as lack of good self-esteem is, in fact, related to what the FA thinks we should be thinking. I've always said that being that objectifying something and being the OBJECT of that objectification are 2 very different things.

...But I often hear from the FAs I encounter here that if I'm not saying OOOh, my fat thighs are hot! oooh, I love my fat rolls! oooh, I'm better because I have a bigger ass than you do! that I don't love myself. That I'm not accepting of my fat. That I'm not proud of myself.

I don't know how to be proud of myself as a fat woman. I only know how to be proud of myself as a woman. I only know how to be proud of myself.

If an FA expects us to be proud of ourselves (or turned on by ourselves) as fat women (in other words, to objectify ourselves in the way they do--and I say that w/o an agenda, we all objectify others to an extent, especially when we're turned on by someone) In The Exact Same Ways They Do, for our fatness, or whatever, then it's no wonder so many FAs talk about being involved with women who don't have self esteem.

Maybe we're just basing self esteem on a very different set of criteria.
yes. we do. i really wonder why that is?
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:20 AM   #19
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Zain thats a great point about faking it until you make it. thats the kind of false self esteem i CAN advocate. i think psychlogists do it with their patients. its very theraputic fakery and a whole lot different from the kind that people use to mask how they feel when they are not really trying to make an emotional transition.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:43 AM   #20
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For me, it was a conscious journey and not something that I just all of a sudden got one day. I don't know about paysites, but being in the print mag was a part of the journey for me. Just a part of it, but it was also conquering a fear (of having my photo taken), and conquering fears is also empowering, which can help one's confidence -- above and beyond the compliments one receives.

...It's kind of like when AM and I were talking about kind of digging it when we have a wiggle in our walk and we feel like we're hot no matter, and even because of, our size, and knowing that there are some guys out there diggin' it, and others who might be horrified. It's the kind of confidence that can smilingly accept the first, and also smile in the face of the latter.

thats why i think web modeling and print modeling can be great. i think in a way its more helpful to women than men lol (waits for the avalanche of disagreement from visually enhanced FAs). a bbw can get to look at the bodies of other bbws. she knows that the very fact that those photos are marketable that there is some interest. she knows that it takes courage to some level depending on the person. she might think" well if she can do that i can definitely try something simple like going sleeveless. it gets her to look at her own body and maybe finally contemplate its true desireability. i can understand how it would be very freeing to do it. in fact i ran a program for women once. its the reason i got into photographing myself. even though i had been an artists's model for a long time i found that the experience is very different from being drawn by another artist.

anyway... i had a group of women photo themselves naked. a lot had never really looked at their bodies. they never had to show the photos to the group unless they wanted to but they did have to look at them and write about what they saw or what they thought they saw. in teh end a lot chose to allow their photos to be seen by the other women. we talked about what we felt about what we saw and lifestories relative to our bodies. overall a lot of women left with a better body image than the one they came with. for many years some had simply avoided looking very carefully because they were afraid of what they would see. looking and seeing took a little of the fear away.

i like the idea of thinking of you and anne marie walking and enjoying how you look and feel and being extraordinary. i like that feeling too. its kind of powerful and intoxicating. i think the key is that it doesn't have to be done through the eyes of others. its totally real. its great when you actually feel it within yourself and its not artificial. but if someone else is trying to mediate that all of the time it might undermine its development. that would be a real loss.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:55 AM   #21
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There's also a similar question going in the opposite direction. I have, for a long time now, wondered about the slippage I see between women who have self confidence, find themselves attractive (save for a bad day now and then), believe others can find them attractive, and all the stories I hear from men who talk about self-hating fat women.

Don't get me wrong: I'm very sure there are self-hating fat women, and a good number of them, at that.

But I ALSO know that when I bring up certain topics among FAs, I'm almost always immediately told that I don't like myself, I don't have good self esteem, I'm trying to follow the masses not my own wants or desires, I don't feel attractive.

I'm starting to see that perhaps what some FAs see as lack of good self-esteem is, in fact, related to what the FA thinks we should be thinking. I've always said that being that objectifying something and being the OBJECT of that objectification are 2 very different things.

Is it that a woman says: oh god, I'm hideous and should wear a bag over my entire body, go away and leave me alone!
(yes, I know this does happen for some people at some times)

or, is it that I say: Well, yeah, I think I can be cute, definitely, but I don't think it's because of my fat stomach. Or: I'm not really ...turned ON by my fat. I don't feel lust for myself, though I do like that I'm soft, or whatever. You know, the sort of thing I think most women feel about themselves. We can't divorce our bodies from our fat, like the stuff Oprah pulled around on stage after herself. We're all of it, and I don't think most self-accepting fat women would relate to their bodies much differently that self-accepting thin women, in conceptual terms, in linguistic terms.

But I often hear from the FAs I encounter here that if I'm not saying OOOh, my fat thighs are hot! oooh, I love my fat rolls! oooh, I'm better because I have a bigger ass than you do! that I don't love myself. That I'm not accepting of my fat. That I'm not proud of myself.

I don't know how to be proud of myself as a fat woman. I only know how to be proud of myself as a woman. I only know how to be proud of myself.

If an FA expects us to be proud of ourselves (or turned on by ourselves) as fat women (in other words, to objectify ourselves in the way they do--and I say that w/o an agenda, we all objectify others to an extent, especially when we're turned on by someone) In The Exact Same Ways They Do, for our fatness, or whatever, then it's no wonder so many FAs talk about being involved with women who don't have self esteem.

Maybe we're just basing self esteem on a very different set of criteria.
i completely agree with you here!

i think some peoples idea of confidence is different to what it is to me. I think it's definately relative to different people..what it means to be confident..

I do tend to wonder if to be a confident woman im supposed to be happy and not give a crap about certain things like what people think and say 24/7 but in reality i have good days where i feel like the sun shines out of my arse and bad days where i just want to hide from the world, but i dont necessarily think that means im not confident, just that im a female hormonal mess
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:06 AM   #22
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Default Great thread

From personal experience I find excessive over-confidence in anyone, male or female to be unappealing as it generally lacks care and consideration for the person in front of them. It can be arrogant and lacking in humility. I have met more people than I can remember who assume a false confidence that transparently masks some sort of lack of confidence; this seems a fragile bridge to base any relationship on.

I'd suggest that in a sense, self-confidence is best described as a lack of self-doubt. There doesn't need to be any grandiose, in-your-face statement of self-worth; what is important (and relevant for this thread; attractive) is the quiet, assured freedom from doubt. If a man can find any woman with this quality, he has found a real goddess amongst her sisters. If she just happens to be a BBW as well... Juno incarnate!

Too many great comments to quote everyone but these two caught the eye.

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i think self confidence is NOT relative. you have it or you don't. that would be like being relatively pregnant. maybe the problem is that we've tried to MAKE self confidence relative. relative to the esteem of others how much others think we should have rather than how much we need.
Just so. If we base our self-confidence on how we feel about our bodies, or how much we weigh, or what we think other people think; then it definitively is relative to those things. It also becomes subject to change because all those things will surely change. It will wax and wane and generally be fairly unreliable. So what should we place our confidence in?

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When I say I'm attracted to a woman's self-confidence that's exactly what I mean. Most women realize they are more than just their aesthetic appearance. Far fewer seem to appreciate how much physical beauty exists in the context of attitude*. As an analogy, attitude is much more than the lighting and frame of a painting. It is the comprehensive space in which the painting exists. Self-confidence then is the willingness to freely and openly share that entire space and allow the physical countenance to assume its' proper portion and position. A self-confident woman is one who will trust men to see and notice her as something far beyond what shows in the mirror. Much more I could say about this and better but duty calls. Great question though.

*I'd prefer the term "spirit" rather than attitude but then run the risk of suggesting some willowy, new-age meta-concept. "Spirit" as I would intend is strong, palpable and unambiguous.
So, along with what a number of other posters have suggested, we have definitions for self confidence/respect in various contexts. But what is this self that everyone professes to respect?
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:16 AM   #23
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i have good days where i feel like the sun shines out of my arse and bad days where i just want to hide from the world, but i dont necessarily think that means im not confident, just that im a female hormonal mess
thanks!

and naw, not a mess. Just a human being.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:19 AM   #24
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From personal experience I find excessive over-confidence in anyone, male or female to be unappealing as it generally lacks care and consideration for the person in front of them. It can be arrogant and lacking in humility. I have met more people than I can remember who assume a false confidence that transparently masks some sort of lack of confidence; this seems a fragile bridge to base any relationship on.

I'd suggest that in a sense, self-confidence is best described as a lack of self-doubt. There doesn't need to be any grandiose, in-your-face statement of self-worth; what is important (and relevant for this thread; attractive) is the quiet, assured freedom from doubt. If a man can find any woman with this quality, he has found a real goddess amongst her sisters. If she just happens to be a BBW as well... Juno incarnate!

Too many great comments to quote everyone but these two caught the eye.



Just so. If we base our self-confidence on how we feel about our bodies, or how much we weigh, or what we think other people think; then it definitively is relative to those things. It also becomes subject to change because all those things will surely change. It will wax and wane and generally be fairly unreliable. So what should we place our confidence in?



So, along with what a number of other posters have suggested, we have definitions for self confidence/respect in various contexts. But what is this self that everyone professes to respect?
excessive over confidence? is there such a thing? for me what is being described there is more like false bravado. it might be necessary because it might be an important step on the road to develoing true self esteem.

i think you are dead on about self doubt.

as for placing our confidence in something i'd like to think that placing our self esteem in our worthiness as a human being is enough--even without kudos and accomplishments. i think its great to be very proud of what one does what one looks like etc... but to really know that even without those we are worthy is a beautiful thing--we are a beautiful thing. and i think this is a hint of the "self we are to respect. excuse me for going buddhist.
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:02 PM   #25
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Just to put my own thoughts into this point...I think a lot of times false confidence, or the front of confidence, is better then no confidence at all. I think it is amazing what a show of confidence can do for someone who doesn't have it, and how, if utilized enough, false confidence can transform into confidence.
That's also called "fake it 'till you make it," and it's better than nothing at all. Sometimes, it can turn into real confidence, if we are receptive to it.
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i like the idea of thinking of you and anne marie walking and enjoying how you look and feel and being extraordinary. i like that feeling too. its kind of powerful and intoxicating. i think the key is that it doesn't have to be done through the eyes of others. its totally real. its great when you actually feel it within yourself and its not artificial. but if someone else is trying to mediate that all of the time it might undermine its development. that would be a real loss.
I agree. Confidence just because you feel it, and having nothing to do with externals, is a great thing in both males and females, and tends to be attractive to others. And hey, it just feels danged good, too.

Great thread, superodialisque. Thanks for it.
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